"Mercedes Says THEIR CARS JUST DON'T BLOW UP!": The Michael Hastings Car Crash

[Segami]

[hack89]

1. I put "Mercedes crash fire" into Google and got plenty of examples

of Mercedes catching fire after accidents.

[Harmony Blue]

27. There is a difference between fire

and blowing up. Nice try.

[hack89]

30. It didn't "blow up"

there is no indication of a high explosive detonation - it was a low order explosion you would expect from a gas tank rupturing and exploding.

[xtraxritical]

44. Where is the other car/s involved in the accident?

[hack89]

48. It hit a hard, unyielding object at a high speed

That generated enough force to rupture the fuel tank. There is no need for another car.

[sabrina 1]

47. 'it exploded like a bomb' ~ eyewitness statement right after the crash.

[hack89]

58. "It sounded like a freight train going through" - heard after every tornado

yet they never seem to find locomotive parts.

The witness was describing an explosive event - which is what happens when a fuel tank explodes. Doesn't mean there was an actual bomb.

like a bomb =/= is a bomb

[sabrina 1]

62. Didn't say it was a bomb, it was someone acting way out of character over the days preceding

the tragedy, someone who was known to 'drive like a grandma' and who, according to close friends, never showed fear of anything but appeared to be very concerned about the FBI harassing his friends. And someone who had announced the work on a 'very big story' he was doing, who 'needed to go off the radar' for a while.

Didn't need to be a bomb, just high speed and no control of the car would get the result that we saw. Bombs are too obvious. No one with any brains would use a bomb.

[questionseverything]

70. well something changed the direction of the motor

from south(the direction car was traveling) to where it landed 150 feet to the north....the car stopped when it hit a tree right? the fire if it came from the gas tank(assuming the tank is in rear) would still propel motor south

so something is not right unless when a mercedes has an engine fire the explosion is so strong it would change a heavy objects(motor) direction

[hack89]

77. The engine went south

http://metabunk.org/threads/debunked-michael-hastings-crash-engine-found-north-of-crash-going-south.1964/

[questionseverything]

106. ty 4 link

according to the map car hits tree while going slightly sw,there is an explosion and the motor travels slightly se,jumping 4 lanes of traffic and a green space and traveling nearly a city block

looks to me like there is still a change of direction just not as dramatic as the reporter was saying

in my youth i did demo derbys,crashed big heavy cars for fun and i never saw a motor break away and be projected or a fire like that

[hack89]

107. Considering that the car hit a tree

have you considered that the tree deflected the engine? In any case, the engine was found in front of the car, not behind it. My only point.

An explosive device powerful enough to propel an engine any significant distance would have blown the body and chassis to little bits - yet it didn't.

[hack89]

78. He was under enormous pressure. He sent an email that scared his friends

why is it surprising that he would be acting out of character? Perhaps he was scared and panicked?

[reformist2]

2. In this rare instance, I'll side with a corporate statement over the government's.

[naaman fletcher]

18. corporate vs. gov't

At least when it comes to banks and defense contractors, there really isn't a difference anymore.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

3. perforate any gas tank... add a spark and you'll get a fire

if he was going as fast as reports it is very possible the gas tank ruptured on impact... with engine heat and possible sparks a fire certainly could have happened. the car didn't 'blow up'... it caught fire and burned.

sP

[FarCenter]

10. At about 2:00 in the video you can see water bubbling out of the fire hydrant he sheared off

Shearing off a hydrant, which would then rip out the undersides of the car, tends to explain the separation of the engine/transmission and the rupturing of the gas tank.

[xtraxritical]

46. Hydrant's are mounted with shear bolts so that they shear off easily when hit.

[FarCenter]

81. They are heavy and strong and can damage the underside of a car even after they have sheared off.

[NutmegYankee]

94. Doesn't matter

Just hitting a stationary object with that kind of mass at high speed imparts enough energy to rip the bottom open. That the bolts shear matters little. Think of the boys who killed a man by dropping stones from an overpass. Their stone had no forward movement but the impact with a car windshield at highway speed nearly ripped a man's head right off.

[Cleita]

11. The questions here are really not about the car or even the speed, but about

why he was going so fast since he had a reputation of driving like an old woman.

[tblue]

34. My thought exactly.

He knew he was target too.

[anneboleyn]

83. Over 100mph in a residential neighborhood I believe? Very strange indeed

especially for a man that was described by all of his friends as an "old woman" type of driver. Someone driving at that speed in such an area was (possibilities) very seriously impaired (not at all likely in this case), being outrageously, homicidally reckless (again very, very unlikely indeed), was being chased and was terrified for his/her life (unknown), or something more sinister was happening (I don't know anything about the possibility of the car being "hijacked" as has been suggested but this case is strikingly odd just on the surface given that this was so entirely out of character for this man -- not even considering the concern about his articles)

[Cleita]

91. That's not true. Authorities believe it was less than 80 MPH but frankly until the forensic

experts measure everything we don't know.

[nebenaube]

21. yeah, but they usually still have a relatively intact drivetrain...

Not one that is laying 150 feet behind the car. This is starting to look like a 'oh fuck, there's a drone in the mirror' type of story.

[questionseverything]

71. these investigators say hastings was working on endgame article

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6Fh3F6hufhDMGVjMUgxdXEwMzg/edit?pli=1

[mattclearing]

4. Doesn't anyone know how to place an apostrophe anymore?

[Auntie Bush]

14. Why comment?

[HiPointDem]

53. why not? if news outlets can't get the language right, i doubt they get the news right either.

[mattclearing]

96. It's a post about a journalist, so it's relevant. n/t

[woo me with science]

108. Discussion board? nt

[xtraxritical]

49. It's beyond me...

[sabrina 1]

51. That's an extremely important observation as opposed to the topic of the OP.

[HiPointDem]

55. it's actually fairly important, as it tells us something about the media's ability to gather &

report the 'news'.

[HiPointDem]

52. thank you. i can't believe how awful 'journalism' has become. it used to be something like

that was rare, even for small press/tv. now you can find it regularly in the majors.

just apalling. if that's the care given to language, you know the same care is probably given to factuality.

[mattclearing]

97. My problem exactly.

The worst part is that it's so pervasive I have to consider lowering my standards in order to avoid feeling like a total snob or missing out on possibly worthwhile info. Ultimately, I can't escape the feeling that poor writing reflects a lack of care/discipline.

[HiPointDem]

99. also care & quality in general. the ptb make a great display of talking about it, but i notice

the absence of it, or lack of interest in it, in many spheres where it wasn't the case when i was a young person in the work world.

it all feels very potemkin-ish. there's no 'real' there, just the appearance of it.

[REP]

75. No. They are to be sprinkled about liberally, like birdseed

Apostrophes are to be used to form plurals nowadays; being used to form possessives and contractions is so passé.

[mattclearing]

98. I'm 37, and I feel like a fossil for caring.

Stop the madness, people!

[Berlum]

5. the crash is stankily suspicious

Last edited Wed Jul 10, 2013, 11:58 AM - Edit history (1)

for sure

[malaise]

7. Duh!

I asked questions from the first thread

[Beacool]

6. He was speeding through a residential street.

A free lance videographer was about to go home and saw the car go by and filmed the crash. A gas station attendant also said that he saw the Mercedes go by at a high rate of speed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. And family says this was highly unlikely from Hastings

Yes, I saw the video...and I also know these things are controlled by computers. A new version of Boston brakes is possible.

[REP]

74. Not without something being physically plugged into the car at the time

It's not possible to remotely add malware without a device being physically attached to to the car (see the two papers cited about so-called 'car hacking' ) , especially not on a low-end model such as the one in question, which is not drive-by-wire. Hacking the ABS (the computerized part of the braking system) means one will have to pump the brakes, as one does in a car not equipped with ABS. I do not believe that model has stabilization (the years I've driven do not); my car allows the driver to disable it manually if desired so disabling that does not render the vehicle uncontrollable (it does allow the car to be 'drifted.').

Ever driven a car where the power steering has gone out? I used to drive Pontiacs, so it's happened to me more than once. The car becomes EXTREMELY difficult to steer into hard left/right turns, but is driveable and controllable. (Pontiac had a well-known issue with the steering racks of their mid-80s through early 90s mid-size sedans - despite that, loved all three of them).

[Trailrider1951]

102. Dr. Kathleen Fisher of DARPA

begs to differ with you:

Apparently, remote hacking IS possible.

[Cleita]

8. Thanks for the info. There are many unanswered questions, but I guess

we will have to wait until the official report from the investigation. I do hope that his friends and colleagues put up some money to conduct a separate investigation and lab tests, because the LA Coroner's and Sheriffs Offices have been known to screw up investigations of the deaths of famous people where new questions arise that are not answered.

[chimpymustgo]

23. They absolutely must have an INDEPENDENT investigation. We need to keep asking questions, too.

It's all EXTREMELY suspicious.

Quite frankly, I'd like to know more about Mark Udall's brother's death. Anything is possible with the ruling powers.

[MineralMan]

9. A ruptured fuel tank can make ANY car "explode."

Last edited Wed Jul 10, 2013, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)

And ruptured fuel tanks are not uncommon in head-on crashes into solid objects.

Sorry, this isn't convincing.

[Segami]

19. So, are all head-on crashes into solid objects

involving a car be nothing more than an everyday, plain accident ( deer-crossing, negligence or DUI )?

Can other nefarious motives ever be in play?

[MineralMan]

24. Most are. Some are suicides, too.

What gives you the idea that this one was anything else, aside from your imagination?

[Segami]

25. What gives you the idea

thats its another common "head-on" crash and nothing more?

[MineralMan]

26. Occam's Razor.

That's what.

[Segami]

32. So, you happen to see a car with a man and a woman speeding down your street

and all of a sudden, the car veers off and slams head-on onto a tree.

The woman passenger dies on impact. Would you deem such an accident as common without nefarious motives?

[MineralMan]

33. I did not see such an incident, so I have no opinion about it. nt

[Segami]

35. You also didn't witness the Michael Hasting's crash

but are quick to dispel the opinion of others as their " imagination "

[MineralMan]

36. That is correct. I did read a number of accounts of the crash,

though, including a couple of eyewitness accounts. It was not a hypothetical incident like the one you proposed. When I have information, I can form an opinion. I don't do hypothetical questions at all.

And with that, I'm out of this discussion.

[Segami]

38. lol!

[sabrina 1]

60. There's always the Holiday Inn too I suppose!

[anneboleyn]

85. William of Ockham -- fallacious to apply to all circumstances

as it is a manner of approach not meant to foreclose discussion/consideration altogether. Ockham himself, as one of the finest philosophers of the fourteenth century, would no doubt be distressed at the thought that his name was being used as a way to foreclose discussion.

[MineralMan]

86. How was I "foreclosing" discussion?

I have no power to do so. I was stating an opinion, and was asked for the basis of my opinion. I replied.

The discussion continues.

[anneboleyn]

92. "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate"

It does not mean that ONLY the most limited or "simple" explanations are warranted or accurate, which is what your invocation implied.

[caseymoz]

41. They can, but this isn't evidence.

If there's been a murder, you might expect it to be done by fatal car crash, but if there's a fatal car crash, that doesn't mean there's a murder.

In mathematics, that's known as Baye's Theorem. The arrow of inference only goes one direction.

This doesn't mean it couldn't be murder, this means the crash isn't evidence of one.

[Segami]

100. Well, sometimes the crash itself is the evidence of murder.

Man jailed for murdering wife in car crash after disabling airbag


A former commercial airline pilot has been jailed for life after being convicted of deliberately driving his car into a tree to murder his wife in an "act of pure evil".

Iain Lawrence, 53, disabled the passenger airbag and moments before ploughing his car into the tree unclipped his wife Sally's seatbelt, because he could not cope with the break-up of their 12-year marriage.

On 6 October last year, just two days before the final part of the couple's divorce was due to be granted, Lawrence ploughed his car into a tree on Gartree Road in Oadby, Leicestershire at more than 50mph.

Mrs Lawrence died of "catastrophic" injuries, while her husband was uninjured after adopting the brace position during the collision.

Mr Justice Leggatt said: "It is clear to me from the evidence that you had two motives for murdering Sally. One was that you could not and would not accept that your marriage was over and were determined that Sally would never leave you.

"Your other motive was financial gain. You refused to accept that Sally should have the money from the house, although you had been advised that it was her due."

Lawrence had denied murder and claimed he suffered a leg spasm in the moments before the crash that left him unable to touch the brakes.

The jury heard Lawrence feigned unconsciousness in the driver's seat when passers-by stopped to help.

Witnesses described Lawrence, who initially told police he had no memory of the crash, as squeezing his eyes shut "like a child" at the scene.

The court heard details of the crash came back to him "in a nightmare" a month later.

Mr Justice Leggatt said: "The evidence at this trial has clearly established how you killed Sally. As you approached the spot which was your target, you reached across and unclipped her seatbelt. Then you steered the car at the tree and drove straight into it at over 50mph.

"You had the protection of an airbag and seatbelt – protection you had made sure that Sally did not have; and to protect yourself further you got into the brace position before the crash.

"It was not chance but the results of your careful and cold-blooded planning, that you came away from the collision with a few bruises, while Sally died of catastrophic injuries.

"You thought that the crash would be seen as a tragic accident and that you would get away with murder. You would indeed have done so it if had not been for the careful and thorough investigation carried out by the police."

Family and friends of Mrs Lawrence clapped and shouted "yes" from the public gallery as the verdict was read out.

cont'






http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/26/murder-car-crash-airbag-iain-sally-lawrence

[caseymoz]

105. No, the disabled airbag was the evidence

And the unbuckled seat belt, and the fact that the car's computer likely reported when those were done. It probably also recorded that the car accelerated and the brakes were not used, though the lack of skid marks and speed of the vehicle would have probably said that. His only excuse was "leg cramp." And perhaps there was a witness, but with today's cars, they can convict him without one.

Again, the accident is not evidence of murder.

Here's the way it goes: you start out with a dead body, and you know by its condition and the auto's condition that the person died in the crash. You know who was driving her and you know he was unharmed. There are plenty of cars that crash into trees, so that fact alone isn't evidence of murder. Then you find out how the driver came to wreck the car, and here's what comes out:

1) His feet and toes aren't crushed. (Presumably would have been if he wasn't in the crash position.) If he was in the crash position, he wasn't trying to stop the car.

2) The airbag was deactivated for some reason. The car's computer likely recorded when this happened. It was either the car's owner or a malicious auto mechanic who did it.

3) Her seat belt was unbuckled, and the car's computer likely would have recorded when that happened. Besides her, there was only one person who could have done that. Wouldn't the car's warning system remind her to do that?

4) They knew the car accelerated prior to reaching it's target. Either they had an eyewitness or they likely could have taken it from the car's computer.

Those are all the evidence of murder. For 1 and 4, the only motive could be murder, and there's only one person who could have done it. The airbag deactivated shows premeditation for murder but is not evidence of murder itself. Getting into the crash position was the direct and most immediate evidence murder at the scene.

[sabrina 1]

57. And what caused the ruptured fuel tank to occur in the first place? Someone who 'was acting

out of character' over the days before, and someone who normally 'drove like a Grandma' according to those, unlike all of us here who are merely speculating, who knew him best one of whom is and officer of the law.

Applying Occam's Razor to the whole picture leading up to the 'ruptured' fuel tank, something fishy is going on here.

But I am just speculating of course.

[MineralMan]

59. Yes, you are speculating.

That's OK, but I don't participate in speculation about this kind of thing. So, I can't really help out with this one.

[sabrina 1]

63. Then why are you speculating if you don't speculate about things like this?

The only way you can claim NOT to be speculating is to have some proof of your speculations in this thread.

We are ALL speculating and I don't see the problem with admitting that.

[MineralMan]

65. The physical facts of that car wreck are pretty solid.

That's what I have. Beyond those facts, I know nothing, and will not speculate beyond the physical characteristics of the crash. I'll leave that to others.

[sabrina 1]

68. And you are speculating that the physical facts, as reported, are the entire story of how

those 'facts' occurred.

Richard Clarke has some informed speculation on the physical facts. I always consider his opinions to be more credible than most.

[MineralMan]

69. No, I'm not. I have neither speculated that they are

the only thing to consider or that they are not.

The topic of this thread is the statement by Mercedes that their cars don't explode. While that may be true, they certainly can be destroyed by a massive fire caused by a ruptured fuel tank. What led to what happened is something I cannot know, so I do not speculate. Eye witness accounts describe the immediate events prior to what happened. None of us know anything prior to those eyewitness accounts.

I will not speculate on any of that. And we may never know, actually.

[olddots]

12. Suicide or murder ????

we won't find out either way and the anti imagination "experts" will turn their backs on reality as usual .

[LiberalAndProud]

13. I believe Michael Hastings was murdered, for what it's worth.

The case is closed, though. He is dead and that is that.
It seems to me that the penalty for truth-telling is death.

[Cali_Democrat]

28. Who do you think murdered him?

If what you're saying is accurate, this is truly an explosive story.

[LiberalAndProud]

73. I don't know. Nor am I reporting on the facts of the matter.

I don't believe that Michael Harris was in control of his vehicle when it crashed. I believe that the vehicle was most likely accelerating apart from Harris' control.

Can I prove it? Certainly not. I do know that Harris had made enemies in powerful circles. I do believe that small engine aircraft failures are not always caused by pilot error.

That's the beauty -- or the tragedy, depending upon your perspective. Absence of proof demands that the accidental death finding stands. I'll concede that much.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. His car didn't spontaneously explode.

He was going extremely fast down the road and crashed.

[onenote]

16. Maybe so, but they do burst into flames when they hit something -- a lot.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/cops-driver-in-fiery-lindenhurst-crash-was-drunk-1.5182346

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/fears-for-driver-as-car-hits-pole-bursts-into-flames/story-e6frfku0-1226346092403

http://www.nj.com/middlesex/index.ssf/2013/07/report_township_official_feist_traveling_90_mph_when_his_mercedes_crashed_into_2_others.html

[caseymoz]

50. Yes but this was an explosion.

the drive train was found 150 feet away. That says explosion.

Cars might ignite, but they don't explode, despite what you see in movies.

[reformist2]

17. I love it - that reporter ain't buying the official line that foul play wasn't involved!

[Progressive dog]

20. Mercedes cars don't blow up according to Mercedes

I cant imagine a corporate spokesman putting a good spin on corporate products.

[bunnies]

31. +1

This is the obvious response by Mercedes if they still want to sell cars.

[caseymoz]

54. In this case, he's right.

Cars might ignite, but they don't explode. I've never heard of that happening in real life.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

29. How extensive are the test? Has Mercedes tested this with an investigative reporter as a driver?

[Jerry442]

37. Regardless of what actually happened in the Hastings crash....

....I think if I buy a new computerized-out-the-wazoo car, I might add a custom "kill" switch that shuts off the fuel and electrical power to the engine. No matter what happens on my desktop computer, I can still yank the plug out of the wall. I want the same option on my car.

[HooptieWagon]

39. All vehicles already have one. Its called a gear slector lever.

Place it in neutral and brake the vehicle to a controlled safe stop.

[Jerry442]

43. According to Wikipedia...

Hastings was driving a Mercedes C250 Coupe. If my brief glance at the Wiki page is right, the C250 has paddle shifters. Not at all clear to me that you could easily throw a paddle-shifter car into neutral in a hurry, or even at all, if the computer is having a seizure.

[HooptieWagon]

64. If for some reason you can't shift to neutral....

simply stomping hard on the brakes will stop a car, unless you're driving a top-fuel dragster. A test was done on several cars...even a 400 HP Mustang was easily stopped by the brakes with the throttle wide open. People are either unfamiliar with complete operations of their car, or panic and freeze.

[Jerry442]

79. Car & Driver agrees with you.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration

[Bodhi BloodWave]

40. i can just see the drop in sales on this exchange.

Reporter: Does your cars explode?

Mercedes spokesperson: Yes, we have had a number of our cars blow up, nothing to worry about though.

[Egalitarian Thug]

42. Odd that the drive train was in the street behind the wreck. n/t

[HiPointDem]

56. could you explain for those of us who aren't mechanical?

[Egalitarian Thug]

95. Just that the reporter said the engine, transmission, and rear end were scattered

100' - 250' along the street behind the car. Now that I think about it though, if he were going i excess of a 100 mph down Highland, he could have ripped the bottom out of the car at Melrose and before hitting the palm.

[Segami]

101. Here's some photos for perspective.

[Egalitarian Thug]

104. So, the twinkie was just completely wrong & got the directions bassackward.

What a shock.

[Jeroen]

45. Was Michael Hastings' Car Hacked? Richard Clarke Says It's Possible

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-car-hacked_n_3492339.html

[HooptieWagon]

82. Its also possible Aliens attacked him.

Both are very unlikely though.
If someone(s) wanted to kill Hastings secretly, why would they pick a method that wouldn't have a high probability of success, and could be easily discovered?

[handmade34]

61. sometimes,

I feel just like this guy (comment from "Hunter" in blog about Hasting's death)

"...Honest question is anyone else finding it increasingly difficult to know what the fuck to believe anymore, its like today you read something and you are like ok that makes great sense, then tomorrow its something totally different and it also sort of make sense and youre left with this hollow and awful feeling that you simply cant find the truth about anything anymore and you exist in this perpetual state of limbo never knowing exactly what the fuck it is that is going on around you?

I dont recall it ever being this hard to just fucking know what to believe anymore, its gotten worse and I am not just being grumpy, I am serious, everyday I go through this with everything and I tell myself, what the fuck am I supposed to believe anymore, is everything a lie, is there such a thing as truth anymore or have we effectively fucked the world up so bad that truth is buried so far up all our asses that we will never again experience such a thing and will be forced to continuously live the lies that are fed to us from the left and from the right jumping back and forth almost minute to minute as the spin and narrative changes and changes, back and forth back and forth.



Fucking madness..."

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36590&start=315

[questionseverything]

72. believe in physics

that doesn't change

[caseymoz]

66. Yes, it's suspicious.

I'm not a conspiracy buff, either.

Maybe I'm not understanding some details. Why was the drive train found 150 feet away? Was that from the explosion or from the force of impact?

Why was he driving so fast? Was he known to do that?

Why did the car explode? Cars might ignite, but they never explode.

And, most worrisome, why did the LA PD rule the death an accident, and why are the refusing to give any details of their investigation? But LAPD are dicks, and they just might do this to reporters anyway.

So far, the death is just suspicious, and maybe my questions are based on details I have wrong.

[KansDem]

67. I don't know; that looks like an extremely hot fire...

Compare with this Mercedes car fire:

Hastings' car is completely engulfed, like a fireball. What's causing it to burn so hot?

I just don't know...

[Scurrilous]

76. Hasting's Mercedes didn't blow up.

It caught on fire after he ran head-on into a tree at high-speed causing the engine to separate from the car and rupturing the fuel line.

[angstlessk]

80. Drive train (not sure about the engine) is BEHIND the car...an impact would have launched

both forward...why did the auto fall apart BEFORE it hit the tree?

[hack89]

84. The engine landed in front of the wreck - as you would expect. nt

[angstlessk]

87. But the drive train was BEHIND the auto..why is that? Why would the drive train just FALL OFF?

[hack89]

88. There are post in this thread that talk about a sheared off fire hydrant

snag that with a rear axle at 100 mph and bad things are going to happen.

[1-Old-Man]

90. It might be better to think of it as the car landed in front of the drivetrain

Also, and you'd have to check on this, but I believe the engine and drivetrain are connected by a torque-tube in this application so whatever energy was applied to rip the engine out would also have had some effect on the drivetrain. At any rate I wouldn't claim to know how what happened but I do know that when the forces in an accident become strong enough to dislodge the engine that nothing else is safe either and parts will be scattered to the winds, so to speak. Other than that they all should be moving in about the same direction its hard to say much about where they will land.

[angstlessk]

93. Assignations are not all done by high velocity bullets...

I think of Paul Wellstone..and not ALL conspiracy theories are wrong headed.

[zappaman]

89. !

[felix_numinous]

103. I wonder what the crash test specs are

for his model car.

All I can add to this discussion is that I have seen many people come into trauma rooms thankful they were in a Mercedes or a Volvo. Those companies pride themselves for their safety in crashes.