My cousin wrote this on my fb page about my post on Trayvon

[rainy]

Last edited Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:09 PM - Edit history (1)

"I am sorry, what did you say the names were of the 73 young black men who were killed by other black men in Chicago week end before last?"
I'm working on a thoughtful response. Can I get some DU help?

[ZombieHorde]

1. What do you think the point of his/her post is? nt

[BainsBane]

47. That's the standard right wing line

The message: Don't pay attention to the Martin case or racism. The real danger in society is black men. The weirdest thing was that I saw an African American woman make all of those racist, right wing arguments on the PBS Newshour tonight. I sat their stunned during the broadcast.

[yurbud]

58. "If black people are killing each other, why can't we kill them too?"

[Bjorn Against]

2. The most thoughtful response is to immediately defriend them

They are clearly racist and all you are going to get if you try to debate them is more hate.

[OneGrassRoot]

3. This is what I'd say:

I don't know because the media doesn't cover these daily tragedies. They don't cover the victims or the convicted murderers who went to jail for their crimes.

The black community....the mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers...have protested about violence within their communities for many years, pleading for help, but it gets no coverage.

So creepy-ass crackers who deny that racism exists, or cry reverse racism, like to act like the loss of life and media coverage of one life is ridiculous since so many other black men die through gun violence every day.

But the salient point to the Zimmerman trial is that the black men who took lives were no doubt all convicted.

How friggin ridiculous those people are. I have family members like that, too.

[Comatose Sphagetti]

6. Well said. eom

[JaneyVee]

18. Not to mention they actually get jail time. Unlike Zimmerman.

[LaydeeBug]

20. ^^this^^. Say this. nt

[crim son]

31. What you just said. n/t

[hfojvt]

37. local media certainly covers it

if national media did, there would be little time for anything else.

and no, many of those killers are NOT caught and thus not prosecuted.

And the media coverage simply IS ridiculous in many ways. It is loaded with misinformation, for one thing. For another, all these people now saying that because of Zimmerman black parents have to be afraid for their kids. Well, that is quite absurd considering that nine times as many young black people are killed by other black people than are killed by "creepy a$$ crackers". So it is absurd to try to make Zimmerman some kind of boogeyman, especially since all the jail time given to the black men who took lives hasn't stopped that tsunami of deadly violence, or even slowed it down that much.

[OneGrassRoot]

60. Forget Zimmerman. Forget Trayvon. Forget media coverage of this event.

Do you deny that there is institutionalized racism in this country, specifically within the criminal justice system?

To me, this particular tragedy was basically the straw that broke the camel's back, as is often the case when one person's story takes hold and gains national attention.

I tend not to focus much on Zimmerman at all; it's more about Trayvon and the millions of Trayvons out there. What I do pay attention to is how right-wingers have appeared to universally embrace Zimmerman as a hero, especially since he was acquitted.

if national media did, there would be little time for anything else.

True, but I never see the marches and protests of the moms and family members decrying the scourge of violence in their communities covered by media, trying to bring attention to the extraordinary violence -- and the circumstances perpetuating the violence.

and no, many of those killers are NOT caught and thus not prosecuted.

But when they are caught, I simply cannot believe they are not prosecuted; if it makes it to court, I cannot believe the vast majority are not convicted. And, if they are not, I'd be very curious to investigate those circumstances.

And the media coverage simply IS ridiculous in many ways. It is loaded with misinformation, for one thing.

Whereas I'm normally the first to criticize mainstream media as useless, providing white noise as a means to confuse and distract from the work of the puppet masters (and, yes, there is always misinformation, and that is no different here), I don't view what's happening now concerning the Zimmerman verdict in that light.

What I'm seeing is a national conversation trying to get started about institutional, systemic racism. There are a lot of commentators/hosts/pundits of color who now have a national platform and they are personally devastated by this verdict. Like I said, this is the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. They personally fear for their own children even more now. (See this Charles Blow article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/opinion/the-whole-system-failed.html?_r=2&).

They are passionate and eloquent and REAL. I've seen more honest dialogue on TV in the last two days than I have in the last 10 years. The corporate mask of BS has been ripped away and they are simply being human, asking to please come together to figure this out, for the safety of our children. They also realize the Stand Your Ground laws and other aspects of this case have the potential to negatively affect many innocents.

For another, all these people now saying that because of Zimmerman black parents have to be afraid for their kids. Well, that is quite absurd considering that nine times as many young black people are killed by other black people than are killed by "creepy a$$ crackers". So it is absurd to try to make Zimmerman some kind of boogeyman, especially since all the jail time given to the black men who took lives hasn't stopped that tsunami of deadly violence, or even slowed it down that much.

That's pretty tone deaf. The same parents I've seen speak of how this verdict creates more fear for their children acknowledge the violence within black communities as well. Many black journalists have been writing about that very thing of late.

Actually, that comment pisses me right the fuck off, to be perfectly honest.

[Cha]

46. Mahalo OneGrassRoot~

[libodem]

51. Very well said

So articulate. I appreciate that.

[blue cat]

56. say this

And defriend!

[last1standing]

4. "Sorry, I didn't know you were a racist." comes to mind.

Or perhaps, "Sorry, I thought you understood the reason Trayvon's murder is so heinous is because America got to watch a race inspired killer walk free. I guess that's not so easy to grasp when you've never been profiled and singled out for death."

[Blue_Tires]

63. +1

[niyad]

5. I would point out to your cousin that since s/he seems to know so much about it, perhaps

s/he could tell you their names.

[abelenkpe]

9. +1000

[LukeFL]

52. Like this one!!

[Gravitycollapse]

7. You could start by spelling his name correctly. It's Trayvon, not Treyvon.

[Nine]

8. No one is arguing that those men (the killers) are immune from prosecution, as they did with Z. (nt)

[RainDog]

10. Since I don't listen to their sources

I don't know where it's coming from - but this is a racist talking point that's going around.

They are using this statement to smear black politicians, too.

So, I guess I would ask that person when she/he ever gave a fuck about an African-American's well being before she/he was suddenly so aware of the tragedy of inner city poverty and the crimes related to it, usually from the drug trade..., and, if this is the first time, maybe such a remark is yet another example of racism, since the issue is that Florida law makes it possible for racists to get away with manslaughter, at the least.

And ask... so the next time a white teenager gets killed by someone who has stated a hatred for white people... you're gonna shut the fuck up, right?

[ornotna]

11. If he's talking about the 4th of July weekend

There were 20 murders in the first week of July.

http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/

[killbotfactory]

12. "I didn't catch their names because I missed the last Klan meeting" nt

[Hoyt]

13. "Go stoke your gun, bigot. Don't pretend you care."

[janlyn]

14. How about the response I gave my niece

a die hard conservative when she made a hateful remark about equal marriage rights.

" You can pick your nose, you can pick your seat but unfortunately, you can't pick your family"

Needless to say she un friended me.

[Just Saying]

15. How about something like

Wow, I'm glad you noticed that too! So I guess you'll be working with me to lobby for stricter gun laws to help keep guns out of the hands of criminals? That would he a big impact on gun violence in Chicago.

He doesn't care about Trayvon or kids in Chicago. It's a talking point from Fox that he's repeating. As if other murders somehow mean we should ignore this injustice in Florida? He's just further diminishing Trayvon.

I have cousins like this too. Belch! I don't even look at Facebook.

[Cha]

48. +1

[Ilsa]

16. Ask her about the white-on-white murders

In the US last week. You'll have to dig for the information since I don't have it. At least it turns it back on her that whites murder too.

[femmedem]

17. Your cousin is trying to do two different things:

First, he or she is implying you only care about Trayvon's death because he was killed by a (relative to Trayvon) whiter man.
Second, he is implying that young black men are violent in general.

I don't think you can make any dent in your cousin's racism. I might acknowledge that both situations are tragic, then add that the root causes are different so his question is a non sequitur.

Or you could say that while you don't know all their names, you care about all the victims. I doubt your cousin can say the same.

Edited to add: the reply upthread about working with you to reduce gun violence is great.

[sweetloukillbot]

19. I'm currently in an arguement on a friend's page with one of his other friends...

My friend had posted something about the state of Florida's responsibility in issuing a concealed carry permit to Zimmerman. One of his friends responded by posting all sorts of links about black on white crime, or black on black crime. I called the guy out, he made excuses and said he wasn't racist, it was all the media. My response:
"If it isn't about race, why did you bring race into the discussion."

No response so far...

[rainy]

21. I'm going to put something together now

thanks for all of your imput. Very helpful!

[Old and In the Way]

22. Glad it wasn't you that wrote this.

Cuz I hate cowards that use 'I had a [friend/cousin/uncle/father] that said <insert stupid GOP/Limbaugh talking points]' so as not to get direct criticism. Otherwse, I'd respond "you're a fucking moron who is directed by evil people to vote against your best interests. If your cousin wants to get educated, offer to tutor him, for a price. It's the free market, baby and intelligence is worth paying for...

[auntsue]

23. well............ they didn't get much media alttention

because the media tends to not care about black on black, or latino on latino crimes ,,,, since they see them as less important people. We would never had heard of this case either except civil rights groups demanded an investigation.

And it is evil that these deaths occur - but politicians haven't figured out how to line their pockets through social service programs. They can and do make a lot of money on prisons........................and adding more cops die to high crime rate.

[Skittles]

24. lower right hand squares, last two lines

[Justitia]

43. I am so using this - thanks! -eom

[Skittles]

44. thank MrScorpio!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3264247

[rainy]

25. How about:

You are right. The media and everyone else ignores inner city crime involving mostly poor black male gang members and drugs. Parents and other community members have been trying to get help for their communities for decades to no avail. The killers if caught, however, surely go to jail. The thing that makes this case stand out so much is the particular visceral pain of such racial injustice. The murderer gets off scot free.

My favorite college professor told me once that if you want to understand someone's pain and outrage walk a mile in their shoes. Blacks have suffered injustice immeasurable for too long and this case is the tipping point.

If you want to add something post it. Thanks

[RainDog]

26. great response n/t

[femmedem]

27. Perfect. eom

[quakerboy]

55. Bologna

You are making things up out of whole cloth.

There's a big difference in not believing in self defense, and in believing that you can not be legally justified in killing someone with whom you have full responsibility for initiating a conflict.

There's also a big difference in believing a larger, older man with training in fighting and a desire to be a law officer should be held to a higher standard of behavior than a kid being stalked in as he walks home as opposed to "black guy right or wrong".

[OneGrassRoot]

62. Can you please clarify what you're trying to say?

I take it you believe Zimmerman's account of the story, hence your views that you have expressed in several places?

Even if Trayvon were "pounding away" at Zimmerman, as Zimmerman proclaims, do you not feel Zimmerman could have chosen a less lethal option to defend himself, rather than shoot him?

I don't have much of an opinion about Zimmerman, quite frankly. We will never truly know his thoughts or intentions or what really transpired in those fatal few minutes. Not really.

But I have no sympathy for George Zimmerman.

To me, what has happened to him is a consequence of him choosing -- against the instructions of the 911 operator (and against Neighborhood Watch regulations, even though he wasn't even officially a Neighborhood Watch person) -- to continue to follow Trayvon, with a loaded gun, and then choosing to pull the trigger. That was a conscious choice, regardless of the details of the physical altercation that took place, the truth of which we will likely never, ever know for certain.

It is a consequence of his choices and actions that night. Unfortunately, an unarmed 17-year-old who was doing absolutely nothing wrong that evening -- early evening at that (not a suspicious time to be out) -- paid for those choices and actions with his life.

[niyad]

66. what utter, tiresome, oft-repeated drivel. some new material would be helpful.

[MrSlayer]

28. Are they being allowed to get away with it?

Is no one looking to arrest them?

A lot of people I know keep saying similar things or decrying the fact that black on white crimes are not protested or given media attention. In every case the perps were arrested and will be convicted.

They miss the point entirely.

[brush]

29. Yeah tell him/her that

that is a specious argument brought up mostly by right wingers who want to get the focus of the conversation off obvious injustice and racism.

Also tell him/her that the vast majority of murder victims are killed by people of the same race.

Whites kill mostly whites, blacks kill mostly blacks, Asians kill mostly Asians, Latinos kill mostly Latinos, and so on because violent people turn to those close by to victimize.

Don't let him/her get away with it.

Like I said, it's a specious and disingenuous argument with an agenda.

[Quixote1818]

32. Those are some good points. nt

[Quixote1818]

30. Here is a response I gave to a similar post you are responding to

Maybe you can use part of it? She was a fundy so I used Jesus at the end.

I think it's more about walking through a poor area than a "black" area of town. We have to remember that blacks were slaves and still had to ride in the back of the bus not that long ago. Many blacks who had to do these things are still alive. But lets examine the mechanism of why things like crime are higher in poor, minority areas. When your race is enslaved for 200 years and then finally let free but given no jobs or no good jobs then you create whole neighborhoods of poor people who live in a country where they question their worth because they can't vote and get spit on walking through a white neighborhood and they see their family members lynched. As any psychologist will tell you the vicious circle is extremely hard to break. In Erickson's eight stages of human development it's shown the human brain wires its self to survive in a harsh environment within just a few years of life. They become hard wired to live in the ghetto and not know how to get out. All through history the poor have struggled with self-respect and crime is rampant and yet if you take a poor minority kid out of the ghetto and raise them in a good middle class family they will thrive and do just as good as any kid will do. That's a fact. Those of us who were lucky and born into good middle class families have a responsibility to the poor. To see their potential and help them up. Poor people simply need a lot of understanding and respect before they can learn to respect themselves and they also need good jobs. You can chose to see them as good for nothing and ready to riot or you can chose to see them as Jesus did. That's what Jesus was all about. Washing the feet of the poor and showing them they are worth something and are loved. Maybe we should learn from that?

[brush]

35. Love the post. Thank you.

It's about more than race. Class, economic class, is really what it's all about. Your example of a minority kid plucked out of the hood and put in a middle class environment who then thrives says it all.

Wonder why the concept of class is rarely ever mention in discussions of race? Probably because many people don't want to do any real critical thinking. It's easier just sticking to what they've always believed.

Thanks again for the post.

[Quixote1818]

38. Your welcome

These are not complicated issues. If you are born in a poor area things are stacked against you. If you are born into a middle class neighborhood then you should thank your lucky stars and give something back. But it's not about bad genes, it's about environment mostly however some people are smarter than others but I don't think the gap is that different. I think Thomas Jefferson understood this would occur which is why he was so strong for public education. So many others back then just thought poor people were stupid. It's very much like the movie My Fair Lady.

[libodem]

54. Wow

Thank you, for saying that.

[crim son]

33. My thought is, whatever the reason,

the publicity in this case is shedding a bright light on the institutionalized racism in the U.S., and perhaps some good may come of Trayvon's death. Also, I'm glad I have no cousins.

[mstinamotorcity2]

34. Tell her they were all named

Trayvon Martin. Because until we unite together to stop gun violence and put a hurting on these weapons manufacturers who make and peddle these things that have gone way beyond the bounds of home protection. Or Hunting for that matter. So if she doesn't want to be in the shoes of one of those mother's of the 73 young black men then she needs to Advocate for her life and the lives of those she loves. Or she too will find more tears to shed for her own. Not wanting anything to happen but usually Karma meets you before you know what it is.

[miked62916]

36. Tell him he's a racist bigot

Who is late for his Klan meeting.

[Skittles]

40. isn't it weird

the only time they care about the tragic shootings in Chicago is when they're trying to excuse the actions of a paranoid racist gun humper?

[JH19059]

39. Here's my take

Let me help out here. First the Majority of murders happening in Chicago are mostly gang related and the victims for the most part are not the most upstanding citizens of Chicago. The victim and suspect knew each other. So the outrage while present for these murders are not high because A. It's criminal on criminal and B. the police are did/or doing a thorough investigation and in MOST cases the suspect has been caught and charged accordingly. Also if u look at Chicago's murder rate from a decade prior it was MUCH higher than it is now. SO don't believe the HYPE. Heck When I came on the job 15 yrs ago we had over 800 murdered in one year and some years it reached over 900. In the Zimmerman case this WAS NOT case. The Sanford police treated Zimmerman as though he was a police officer just involved on duty shooting. This was completely unacceptable. They took his BS story for the truth and left it at that. The outrage over the Trayvon Martin murder was that the murderer was never treated as a SUSPECT from the beginning! Hell the police never even handcuffed him! This is what we refer to as suspect control. They let him control the interview and crime scene scenario instead of developing THEIR OWN THEORY as to what happened. AND lastly your response to your cousin should be .."why should it matter cause you obviously could care less about them...."

[brettdale]

41. I would say

What is the name of the black man who admitted he shot and killed a white UNARMED teenager,
and he didnt go jail?

[ljm2002]

45. I would ask if the authorities...

...are pursuing these cases, or if, as in the Trayvon Martin case, they are just letting the killers slide, because after all, it's just young black men being killed.

[alcibiades_mystery]

49. Just as a note, after reading this thread I want to emphasize that there were not 73 murders

in Chicago on any weekend in recent memory, if ever.

The 20 murders that did occur the first week of July are bad enough, to be sure.

[burnodo]

50. Response: Oh. So you care about what happens to black people now?

nt

[Warpy]

53. The only response should be "no."

He might have to reboot his brain.

[Democracyinkind]

57. Ask him where he got the numbers from. Since they aren't correct...

[yurbud]

59. does your cousin want those crimes to be prosecuted or ignored?

[treestar]

61. Most murders are within the same race

This is the case with white people, too. There are other causes than racism for murders.

It is irrelevant to the fact there is still racism and that Zimmerman was suspicious of a particular kid for no reason other than walking down the street while black.

[Dawgs]

64. Try, 'You're right. Racism against black men is causing pain throughout our entire country.'

Let him stew on that for awhile.

After he responds with something about black on black can't be racism, explain how it's only because of centuries of racism by rich, white, right-wing men that people (black or otherwise) are forced to live in such poor conditions that crime is inevitable.

[tavernier]

65. Ted Bundy killed twice that many

all by himself. Murderers come in assorted colors.

[Dawgs]

67. Respond with, 'I'll get back to you when any of those people get off for murder.' n/t