oooh, Russia's just so evil and baaad.

[cali]

but the U.S. is just grand. Noble. Best country ever ever on the face of the earth. Never mind that we imprison a greater number of our citizens than any other country. Never mind an illegal war that killed hundreds of thousands. Never mind CIA operations all over. Never mind extrajudicial drone killings.

Never mind, never mind, never mind.

In other words, our shit stinks too.

[MotherPetrie]

1. Good way to put it.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

24. Do you remember the KGB?

they weren't nice

[truebluegreen]

54. "Guaranteed not as bad as the Soviet Union" is not a standard anyone should be proud of.

[zappaman]

59. That pic does not look like the KGB.

It looks like Beady Eye!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

158. Yes

[MotherPetrie]

90. Of course I do. And that's not the point of the OP.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

159. I know

[Egalitarian Thug]

101. Another 'whoosh' moment brought to you by the U.S. propaganda machine.

Our propaganda machine is just so much shinier than theirs.

[GlashFordan]

108. Similar to the CIA, yup... Nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

160. maybe

many thought it was more effective than the CIA

[ProSense]

2. Actually,

oooh, Russia's just so evil and baaad.

but the U.S. is just grand. Noble. Best country ever ever on the face of the earth. Never mind that we imprison a greater number of our citizens than any other country. Never mind an illegal war that killed hundreds of thousands. Never mind CIA operations all over. Never mind extrajudicial drone killings.

Never mind, never mind, never mind.

In other words, our shit stinks too.

...the U.S. sucks, and no doubt, most Americans who fear the fascist state we have become would move to Russia if given the opportunity.

History shows Snowden may face tough exile in Russia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023395164

[DonCoquixote]

3. false comparison

America has issues, but that does not improve the Russians any.

[NuclearDem]

12. Are you ever going to get tired of the "we're not as bad as Russia!" defense?

Or is just being slightly better than the former Soviet Union just the best you think we can do?

[ProSense]

16. No, we're different from Russia. We're almost the same.

Are you ever going to get tired of the "we're not as bad as Russia!" defense?

You mean that's not accurate? Are you ever going to get tired of trying to defend Russia from criticism?

[NuclearDem]

19. Oh, you.

Of course it's true! My point is, and always has been, that Russia is hardly a standard to which we should hold ourselves.

But somehow, that translates into apologizing for Russia to you.

[ProSense]

26. "Russia is hardly a standard to which we should hold ourselves." I know,

because the OP title say it: "oooh, Russia's just so evil and baaad."

[NuclearDem]

31. Yes, it is bad.

In fact, you mention that very frequently when you defend the US's torture policy.

[ProSense]

34. What bullshit. LOL! n/t

[NuclearDem]

35. Oh, is it?

Do I really have to link back to where you seem to be just fine with the use of long term solitary confinement in US prisons?

[ProSense]

68. Go ahead. n/t

[leveymg]

66. Are we different or almost the same?

Seriously?

[ProSense]

69. Snark. n/t

[sabrina 1]

82. Do you have a history of criticizing Russia or is this something new.

It seems to be the thing on the internet, this sudden 'concern' for Russia and its policies.

A much, much WORSE human rights abuser, trying to help you with our concern for human rights abusers, is Karamov of Uzbekistan. He committed genocide against his own people, boils people in oil and has been know to throw their bodies on the doorsteps of their families as a warning to be 'careful what they say'.

But he is our ALLY. Our tax dollars are funding him to buy more tools to persecute his people with.

Back when Bush was occupying the WH we were very concerned about people like him. But there has been a remarkable silence about him since them.

The Embassy Cables revealed that that the US was well aware of his abuses 'hes not a nice guy, but he lets us keep our bases in Uzbekistan'.

I would say that those who fund genocidal maniacs are not nice people. At least that's what we used to say when Bush was in the WH and Rummy went to hand over a check to him.

Sure, we 'ask' him to be 'nicer' but a dictator is a dictator.

Just thought you might want to spend some time on these Human Rights abusers since this seems to be your issue right now.

I have a list of a few more, Bahrain, eg, another ally of ours, if you need some assistance in your campaign against human rights abusers. Compared to so many of our allies, Russia looks positively progressive so I wonder why just them?

[ProSense]

88. I don't need a "history" to criticize Russia.

"Compared to so many of our allies, Russia looks positively progressive so I wonder why just them?"

Yeah, OK.

[sabrina 1]

162. Thanks for answering. You seem skeptical of my assessment of the human rights records of

many of our allies.

'Yeah, OK'. No, it is an absolute fact that many of our allies make Russia look positively progressive. And it's sickening that there is so little criticism of our government for funding genocidal maniacs, like Karamov, and brutal dictatorships, like Bahrain.

Your focus on Russia seems trite frankly if Human Rights is what you are concerned about.

[AverageJoe90]

145. As an FDR Democrat, I whole heartedly support you, ProSense.

And I'm far from alone.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

29. In the old days they were sent to Siberia

[Mojorabbit]

136. It remains to be seen how tough it will be since he is being inundated with job offers. nt

[Riftaxe]

4. And poor Stalin was just misunderstood?

[backscatter712]

9. Stalin's still alive? n/t

[deurbano]

18. Yes, and Hitler still rules Germany, I guess?

[Riftaxe]

20. He died in the 20th century

Nobody said we were comparing crimes from the start of the post.

But if you want to be a Stalin apologist, have at it.

[truebluegreen]

56. Your straw man, you swing at it.

[MattSh]

163. 60 years ago to be precise.

A lot happens in 60 years.

[reusrename]

33. I believe Stalin was Georgian.

Swing and a miss.

edited to add> he was born in the Russian Empire in a town that is in present day Georgia. Third base umpire rules a foul tip.

[GlashFordan]

109. And his name wasn't Stalin

He changed it to hide his Georgian background. And because it means " steel"

[RZM]

125. Stalin preferred Russian over Georgian culture

For that matter over that of the whole Caucasus region.

Stalin never expressed a whole lot of enthusiasm for his Georgian background and resented some of the customs. But he did make efforts to become more Russian, including his famous toast thanking the 'Russian people' right after WWII.

He wasn't an ethnic Russian by birth, but he did a lot to build the system to which today's Russian Federation is the heir.

[cali]

147. I'm talking about now, not 60 years ago. duh.

[backscatter712]

5. Why didn't you know, the U.S. is the source of all goodness and justice in the world!

Just ask Bradley Manning!

[Katashi_itto]

14. Or Jose Padillo...

...Course I don't think you'll get much of a coherent answer from him, they broke him years ago...

[Hydra]

32. I'm sure what he'd tell you if you asked:

"I love big brother."

[Katashi_itto]

50. Hahahha, very true..!

[backscatter712]

80. 2+2=5! n/t

[MADem]

85. It's PADILLA, not Padillo. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

102. Sure, but his name sounds brown, so who really gives a fuck?

[quinnox]

104. lol, yep

[quinnox]

6. I love how all of a sudden the Snowden haters became very concerned over the plight of gays in

Russia, once Snowden ended up going there and gaining asylum. Before that happened, not a peep about all this. Hmmm...

And what about all the other countries (all 76 of them) which have anti-gay laws? Hell, some of them will even give the death penalty for it, much worse than Russia. But I guess they don't matter or something (to those who hate Mr. Snowden). Otherwise, they certainly seem quiet about all these other countries.

[KamaAina]

25. Few of those countries are developed countries.

NONE of the others are in the G-8.

[awoke_in_2003]

42. I am not a Snowden hater

but I hate Russia's treatment of gay people.

[quinnox]

44. Fine, then my post doesn't apply to you

Just thought this was an interesting development in the ardent anti-Snowden crowd.

[awoke_in_2003]

47. Just wanted to make it clear...

because down thread I brought up the treatment of gay people, and didn't want to get lumped in with the haters.

[quinnox]

53. understood. There are definitely those who are consistent in their principles

re:the anti-gay laws in Russia, and are not using this issue as a way to attack Mr. Snowden indirectly (in a hypocritical manner).

I definitely make a clear distinction between the two groups.

[liberal_at_heart]

112. I think you're on to something there quinnox.

The anti-Snowden crowd is pissed that Russia won't turn him over.

[quinnox]

116. I agree, it was odd how this

big concern seemed to come out of nowhere. Yup, I bet many of them are pissed, and further, seething how this whole Snowden situation has played out. They were expecting he would be caught quickly, and locked up in a dingy cell, perhaps undergoing an "enhanced" interrogation in an undisclosed location somewhere, not running around a big modern country as a free man, with job offers from a billionaire and marriage proposals from Russian women.

[backscatter712]

122. Amazing how that works. When it was Lt. Dan Choi handcuffing himself to the White House fence...

protesting Don't Ask, Don't Tell and gay servicemen being drummed out of the armed forces, the same BOGers were telling the LGBT community to sit down and shut up.

[quinnox]

129. good point nt.

[SwampG8r]

142. its a false front

they are the same crowd that headed the gay purge a while back
I just saw one annoying dithering Canadian on a thread openly gay baiting a gay duer as the duer was making the point of how bad Russia's history on civil rights in general and gay rights specificly
I mean the guy is making the point about the abuses and this sad Canadian cant hold back his homophobia with someone agreeing with him!
now it is there mantra....hows that song go? oh yeah I remember
"what a difference a day makes....24 little hours......."

[Number23]

40. It would appear so.

Just when I think this place has a floor for cluelessness, something like this comes along...

[AtomicKitten]

84. +1

[msanthrope]

167. There is no floor, here. None at all. nt

[Posteritatis]

43. This place generally gets hypersimplistic when one country or another is criticised

It happens all the time - if people say something bad about Country X, especially if Country X is in the news for a US-relevant reason, people will swarm to dismiss or ignore or minimize any criticisms, or act like the OP and assume that criticising another country means believing the US is flawless.

The reverse tends to happen too - if a foreign country criticises the US too loudly the relevant threads turn into something that would pass muster at Free Republic some days.

Then there's the sillier stuff, like judging a foreign country based entirely on whether they've got good relations with Washington (usually in a "poor relations = better place" sense)...

[kenny blankenship]

8. Yes, they are SO VERY eeville and bad, in fact, that anyone who gets stuck there

-even those stuck there because a certain other country which must not be named but which controls the airspace of the whole planet won't let him fly- is eeville and bad too by association, and all of the facts divulged by this now thoroughly eeville and completely Russia person become magically invisible as a consequence.

[sagat]

10. America >>>>>>>> Russia

That's a fact.

[Egalitarian Thug]

103. Peanut fixes master's primed terrier mare. n/t

[cali]

148. I guess that depends on the metrics used to come to that conclusion, doesn't it?

Russia's treatment of LGBT people is worse. It's treatment of dissent is worse. On the other side of the coin, the U.S. has far more of its citizens imprisoned and has killed far more people across the globe over the past decade or so than Russia.

[Puglover]

11. Yeah someone actually called them the

"Russkies" the other day. Dear God, I sometimes wonder how many of these people have stepped out of their backyards.

[NuclearDem]

13. And here I was thinking the Cold War was over

[Puglover]

15. I asked them if they were June Cleaver posting under another name. nt

[deurbano]

21. June was cooler than that!

[Puglover]

28. She was just a doll!

[great white snark]

17. Overall the US doesn't suck when things are put in perspective.

And your account of Americans fleeing to Russia are laughable. Hundreds maybe thousands risk their lives daily to flee HERE.

Your hatred for this country is not shared by many. Thankfully.

[cali]

150. I've never made any account of Americans fleeing to Russia, honey.

so please stop making up shit.

I don't hate my country.

And sorry, in many ways this country sure does suck. Economic inequality, imprisonment, wars started under false auspices, extra judicial killings, etc.

[treestar]

22. We are a much better country

We have a bill of rights and a constitution that is followed. We haven't killed masses of our citizens as the Soviets did in the purge era. We did not have a totalitarian state for decades. We did not imprison people for daring the question the authorities. We did not allow people to suffer a shitty economy on basis of a theory, where it didn't have to happen. We did not restrict what people could read or listen to for decades. We did not put up an iron curtain. We did not have to force our neighbors to govern by our theories.

Some of you Snowdenites are unbelievable, and refuse to face that fact dear Edward is unfree, in the very terms you've spouting about for weeks now. Hell, as a temporary asylee and thus foreigner, he is worse off than any Russian citizen.

[awoke_in_2003]

49. "We have a bill of rights and a constitution that is followed"....

oh, that's rich.

[bvar22]

62. Can you BELIEVE it?????

I gasped that somebody would actually POST something so absurd!!!

[reusrename]

74. That whole Civil War hoax, never happened.

Genocide against Native Americans, nope, no such thing.

It's mind numbing denial.

[Puglover]

76. I LOVE the

"your hatred for this country is not shared by many" Christ on a cracker. Yeah, Cali so hates the US.

[cali]

151. That's me. "Madame Obamahater" as I've been called

Hater of my country.

It's pathetic and beneath contempt. And it's stupid. Gobsmackingly stupid.

[treestar]

71. It is

Good grief. Get out more. The courts are functioning. Jesus God in Heaven. You people are unbelievable. You indulge in the most ridiculous cynicism ever. You can't imagine what it was like to live in the Soviet Union or even modern day Russia. If you think this is anything near there, you are as ignorant as it is possible to be.

[reusrename]

75. The criminal cabal that rules modern Russia is not homegrown.

Something on the order of $20 trillion was stolen from the people when the Soviet Union collapsed. Care to make any guesses who stole it all, right in front of God and everyone?

[awoke_in_2003]

79. Since you brought up the bill of rights...

the 1st amendment is null and void. If you have to obtain a permit to protest it is no longer a right- it is a privilege, to which you can be denied. The Patriot Act allows the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendments to be totally ignored. So yeah, it is being followed.

[Puglover]

81. Just a question Treestar. I'd be curious to

know what traveling you have done? Branson Missouri? Atlantic City? Europe? South America? Asia? China? Dogpatch?

Frankly your posts don't sound like you get out a whole lot.

I wonder if folks living in 3rd world poverty in Montgomery Al. would agree with your assessment. You know, if they had a chance to compare where they live to say St. Petersburg. Been to either of those places?

It's not where you live as anyone who has been out of their own back yard can tell you' it's how much green you have.

"Ignorant"? Physician, heal thyself.

[SMC22307]

94. I dunno. Igor's Moscow apartment looks pretty decent...

http://moscow.craigslist.org/apa/3973225767.html

And after a hard day's work raking in the big bucks at the Russian Facebook, Snowden can shop at Globus Gourmet:

http://www.mydestination.com/moscow/shopping/117620/globus-gourmet

And even grab a cocktail at the ice bar:



AND there's a subway.

I know this disappoints a vocal few DUers, but this isn't what awaits Snowden:

?w=300&h=201

Bradley Manning could best address what awaits him in the United States.

[awoke_in_2003]

100. Oh, and I didn't say we are as bad as Russia...

I balked at your statement that the bill of rights is being followed. Should we start addressing how it is not being done so in some cases, or just wait until we are as bad as Russia?

[Luminous Animal]

143. Nor can imagine living in BFF Saudi Arabia. The country where 99% of the 911 killers

came from.

[RC]

91. No, we don't kill most of them, we just lock them up for very long periods of time, for what really

are trivial non-"offenses", like growing a few weeds, for instance.

[Egalitarian Thug]

105. LOL!

And a picture of Senator Citibank, no less...

[bvar22]

165. I KNOW!!!

Embarrassing.

I am beginning to suspect that this is Deep Satire,
because NOBODY could really believe that shit.

[font size=3]The Conservative Bubble

It isn't just for Republicans anymore![/font]







You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[a la izquierda]

157. Wait, what?

Someone already mentioned Native people's, so I won't eviscerate up I on that.

But "We did not have to force our neighbors to govern by our theories." are you serious? I guess overthrowing leftist, democratically elected leaders never happened (Guatemala, Chile); attempting to remove leaders (Cuba); providing aid and instruction to military dictators so they could kill their own people (Argentina, Brazil, ahh and the rest of Latin America. That doesn't count, right?

[cthulu2016]

23. Why not train your fire on the statements that are wrong?

Russia really is evil and bad.

The problem is the following, "but the U.S. is just grand."

The five horsemen of the Swowdenpocalypse are fucking idiots, of course. And attempts to defend the NSA by attacking Russia for harboring Snowden are pathetic and would be entirely out of bounds if a few of our progressive leading lights did not actually take the bait with praise of Russia as a better country than the US... which is just as stupid as the horsemen.

But really, the problem is the idea that America is open and free enough. It is not. And whatever Russia is doesn't change that either way.

Seeking to minimize the gap between the two, however, seems faulty to me. The gap is large.

I feel your frustration, but Russia really does suck.

[Drunken Irishman]

27. It's about hypocrisy.

Everyone knows the United States has its problems - a lot of problems, in fact. But it's Snowden who's deciding that Russia is perfectly reasonable and the U.S. isn't. If he truly believes that, he's as stupid as your post.

[davidn3600]

36. His choice is Russia or life in an American prison

Which would you choose?

I mean seriously.....

[Drunken Irishman]

37. His choice was to speak out against the United States and then go over to Russia...

How much do you want to bet he doesn't say a peep about their problems?

He lost credibility the second he sought asylum in a nation that makes the U.S. look like freakin' Sweden.

[davidn3600]

45. US wouldnt let him go anywhere else!

He wanted to stay in Hong Kong, but they gave him the heads up that the US was going to demand an extradition. So he took off to the only place that would let him land.

He applied for asylum in 26 countries before having to accept temporary asylum in Russia.

[Drunken Irishman]

48. Yup...and?

Do you think Snowden will badmouth the Russian government like he has the United States'? Probably not. He's a hypocrite.

[davidn3600]

52. He probably will when and if he leaves Russia

Since it is the only place he can live free right now, no he's not going to say anything against that government for the time being.

[Drunken Irishman]

87. Uh huh. I bet he will.

He's a hypocrite. If he truly wanted to stand for justice, he'd return home and face the consequences instead of accepting amnesty from a government that's even more corrupt than ours. It proves to me Snowden is nothing more than a self-serving asshole.

[bobduca]

92. derpy derpy derp

[Drunken Irishman]

140. Pretty much when I hear people defend Snowden for going to Russia...

They vilify the U.S., attack us, shit all over our government and not a peep from these assholes when Snowden runs for cover in fucking Russia.

[bobduca]

161. AMERICA #1 RUSSIA P'TOOIE! spitting noise

Thank you for your participation in stupid american exceptionalism theater!

[RC]

93. If Snowden returned here, the treatment he would receive would make Manning's treatment seem like

pampered royalty.
Snowden knows and has much more damaging information than Manning did. All Manning did was report a few minor, little things like ongoing, wholesale War Crimes, covered up from the highest levels of our government.

Snowden exposed the high crimes and misdemeanors of our shadow government, committed against, not only the world, but against our own citizens, in flagrant violation of the Constitution.
Snowden proved he was smarter than Manning, just by leaving the country. Snowden is reasonable free. Manning is facing a possible 130 years in a military prison.

[Drunken Irishman]

111. Boo-fucking-hoo.

He made his entire situation worse by flying around the world looking for a place to hide. He should have thought this out before deciding to leak the secrets, or gone a different path (how about contacting Bernie Sanders' office - since, you know, he's the greatest and all?)? Snowden took the chicken's way out - he exposed secrets, ran off and now refuses to pay the price.

You know, I do sympathize with Snowden a bit. I believe Greenwald used him, promising him that he'd be welcomed in Iceland or some other stable country, and instead, he was essentially left up shit creek without a paddle. It sucks, but then, anyone with a half a brain should've seen it coming. His listening to Greenwald got him into this mess and instead of maybe leaning on the sympathy of the American people (as was the case when this story initially broke), he took the coward's way out and bolted. The irony is that what you say would have unlikely faced Snowden had he come home shortly after the news broke. Politically, it would have been bad optics for Obama, and since most America originally felt sympathy for him, I wouldn't have been surprised if he was pardoned in the process. But the more games he played, the hypocritical actions he took (running into the arms of Russia really doesn't look good) turned Americans against him. The polls indicate as much. Sure, they might not want him tried for treason (and I don't think he would have), but he now lost any lifeline he had by running away.

He could have handled this much better. He could have gone to a liberal ally in the government. He didn't. He gave the secrets away to a newspaper and in the process got the hell out of the country (so, you also get the sense he knew what he was doing would bring about this).

So, I don't feel bad for him at all. I do, though, think he's a hypocrite and nothing is going to change my view on that.

[Raine1967]

95. Agreed.

This is all getting quite ridiculous.

I had some one else try to tell me in another thread that Snowden ran just like Ellsberg.
Uh -- NO.

Elsberg when into hiding in the UNITED STATES.

[MattSh]

137. You're kidding, right?

Snowden's been in Moscow's airport for about a month, and suddenly he's an expert on Russia and their problems?

I just wish that a few more people here on DU would become an expert on problems in the USA.

[Drunken Irishman]

141. It doesn't take an expert to know Russia is a fucking corrupt, reactionist nation.

...whose leader is living out some Cold War Soviet Era power trip.

Snowden's a smart man. I'm sure he can read the headlines.

[treestar]

154. Do you get that he has no guarantee of life in Russia not being in prison

not being temporary and that he can be stopped or spied or any time without remedy? You guys are friggin' unbelievable. Who has been calling us authoritarian, totalitarian? You just don't really get it. You were all on about how important the US constitution is and how terrible it is that the law is not as you deem it should be as soon as you find out about an issue and snap your fingers. Well that is certainly not the case in Russia.

You are looking at this shallowly and ignoring the very issue that you claimed St. Snowden was saving us on!

[snappyturtle]

57. I think until we learn how Snowden came to his decisions of where to

go after Hawaii we need to be quiet on that. I have heard not one word
from Snowden concerning his choices. He may not have had many. I believe
it's just surmising that you think Snowden views Russia as perfectly reasonable.

He hardly could have stayed here and gotten his message out especially when
members of Congress call him a traitor and the likes of USA Today compare
him to Benedict Arnold. He has all ready been tried in our country.imho

[Drunken Irishman]

89. I think it's pretty clear Snowden will accept Russia's flaws rather happily...

So, in that regard, yeah, he's the definition of a hypocrite. Frankly, I hope he enjoys his time in Russia. I don't give two shits if he ever returns to the United States.

[JI7]

128. what message ? that he fine living in places which are far worse when it comes to

the things he complains about the US doing ?

[AverageJoe90]

146. That's another thing that bothers me about this selfish prick.

I mean, come on, Russia, of all places?

[JI7]

126. yes, he said he didn't want to live in a country that spies on people

but he is ok with Russia ? and before russia it was china.

the pathetic argument about how he would go to jail just makes his position even worse as it shows he doesn't seem to care about what a country does as long as he personally is treated well.

[zappaman]

30. I'm pretty happy to be living in the USA.

And pretty happy I'm not living in Russia.

[loli phabay]

46. pretty much my feelings on it.

[awoke_in_2003]

38. At least we don't have an atmosphere...

that fosters physical attacks on gay people.

[LWolf]

39. Deja Vu. nt

[indepat]

41. The gipper spoke of "The Evil Empire" with derision, but the ensuing fawningly slavish worship

of the man and his vision has begotten us much of what junior wrought, some of it reeking of the doings of an evil empire imo.

[liberal N proud]

51. The Us has not arrested gays.

[backscatter712]

55. ...except in Baton Rouge.

Look at the legal situation for the GLBT community just a couple decades ago.

There's a reason why there were the Stonewall riots.

We're but recently enlightened, and not completely.

[liberal N proud]

73. The federal government?

Local powermongering law enforcement maybe, but are there any instances where the federal government has arrested anyone for being gay?

[backscatter712]

77. Denied them their rights right up until a couple months ago.

I'll take DOMA for a thousand, Alex.

[liberal N proud]

153. Discriminated against, but not arrested for.

[NuclearDem]

58. Except during the decades of anti-sodomy laws.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

78. ignorance

must be bliss

[Puglover]

86. LOL

Lately.

[Egalitarian Thug]

107. ...for weeks now.

[PragmaticLiberal]

60. To be fair, your post could apply to many countries.

Personally, I'm not one of those "the U.S is an evil bully who beats up on the third world etc etc. type person.

Nor do I think we're saints.


I believe the U.S. does what it perceives are in it's best interests.


Just like every other nation.


So in other words, everybody's shit stinks (To a certain extent).

[bvar22]

64. Which IS exactly the POINT of this OP.

I agree with YOU,
AND the OP.

[Sand Wind]

61. Always that kind of ridiculous comparison. Nt

[MicaelS]

63. We know our shit stinks.

What is tiresome is the club of Americans who despise America because America isn't as perfect as they think she ought to be. The club of "Blame America First, Last and Always". The club of no matter what America does as a nation, America is wrong. If we do nothing we're wrong. If we do something, then we're wrong because we didn't do enough, or we did too much.

All of our worst behaviors together do not add up to as many people as Stalin murdered did during The Great Purge. Which depending on the figures is between 13,000,000 and 20,000,000. Stalin was a monster.

[sufrommich]

65. Simplistic crap. The kind of crap that keeps

the left from ever making headway in this country.No one jumps at the chance to follow those who sneer at the country they love,not in any country.There are ways to point out the problems in this country that work for the majority of Americans ,this nonsense hyperbole isn't one of them.

[lumpy]

99. Hear hear

[cali]

152. that was kind of the point, my dear. But of course, you haven't said word one about

the hundreds of simplistic posts about how awful and evil Russia is since Snowden landed there. I do so love hypocrisy.

[kardonb]

67. Russia

You bet , our country , the USA , IS still the best country in the world , despite all you nay-sayers . If you think Russia is so wonderful ,emigrate there . NO country ids perfect , as no person is perfect , but at least we try .

[Cryptoad]

96. Been there,,,,,,,,,,

Glad I am not Snowden.

He is traitor for what every reasons but a traitor.

I hope he enjoys the Moscow Winters and I hope this year it the coldest on record

[RC]

97. Apparently you have not done much travailing.

For one, our neighbor to the North is a more civilized nation than we are.

We are trying alright, but not in the way you think. We can never right the wrongs by cheer leading. We must first recognize and acknowledge the wrongs, before we can do anything to fix them.

[backscatter712]

120. MURIKA! FUCK YEAH!

[trumad]

70. For fuck sakes...

Its the fucking weekend.

[quinnox]

83. heh

[starroute]

72. There's an old Russian proverb, "No man smells his own"

It would seem to apply perfectly in this case. To both sides.

[Purveyor]

113. Oh hell. I just spit beer all over the screen. So true, so true, indeed! eom

[RZM]

98. Russia is a single-party state

And Putin is an authoritarian asshat.

Vocal opposition figures can end up in jail and troublesome journalists have died under mysterious circumstances.

Russia is not the worst place on earth and the US is not the best. But international monitoring organizations consistently rank the US much higher on any number or freedom/human rights indicators.

[yourmovemonkey]

106. I was just in Moscow last week

I was just in Moscow last week, and it's a beautiful modern city. The people I met were very kind and patient (Russian is hard!). It's not some bleak, black-and-white landscape. Russia has problems. We have problems. They have Putin. We had Bush.

Much like here, the Russian people seem to run the gamut of philosophical and political beliefs. They are all quite aware of their history, but they have as much a right to proud of their heritage as we do of ours (good and bad). It's only been 20 years, and we are only now seeing the first post-Soviet generation.

I've been lurking here for years, and only just signed up. Some of the comments here really bothered me though with their broad-brush depictions of Russia and the people. Every country has its assholes, but good people keep trying to make things better everywhere.

[William769]

114. Russian Parliament Unanimously Passes Anti-Gay Bill, 434-0

http://www.queerty.com/russian-parliament-unanimously-passes-anti-gay-bill-434-0-20130611/

Pardon me if I don't share your enthusiasm.

Oh BTW, welcome to DU.

[yourmovemonkey]

119. Thank you for the welcome

I am aware of the law there, but there are plenty of places here where you wouldn't be any safer being openly gay. There are bigots everywhere. I'm sure there are plenty of people in our own congress who would love the opportunity to pass the same kind of law. In fact, we once had similar laws. The world is changing very quickly, and just like here many people are resistant to what progress brings. I spent a lot of time talking to my friend's teenage boys though, and I can tell you they are the same as teenagers here. Don't hate the country or its people because of the actions of their government. Everyone was very nice to this American and accepted me as an individual. It's a beautiful city with a lot of history. I would encourage anyone to visit.

[William769]

123. Yes the world is changing very quickly.

Unfortunately Russia is going back wards, not forward with the LGBT Community (I am focusing in on this Group because I am in this Group). That was a Unanimous vote it is the people that put them there. Yes there are bigots in our Congress do you think they would ever get a unanimous vote like this on this subject?

This is not the Government, this is the people.


That happened today. A lone activist being attacked by a group no less.

Sorry but I'm not buying your propaganda.

[yourmovemonkey]

127. So you hate the Russian people. All of them.

OK

Isn't that sort of like... nevermind.

BTW: I'm gay too. So certainly I can sympathize with what activists there are going through because I've had to face a lot of discrimination in my own life. My original comment was in response to a broad depiction of the Russian people though, and whenever someone paints an entire group of people in that way, they are guilty of bigotry.

It's not propaganda. It's about people, and individual people have value. We're on the same side.

[William769]

130. Oy vey.

[uppityperson]

132. Where did he say he "hate the Russian people. All of them"? Is it ok to speak out against

people who do this sort of shit?

[yourmovemonkey]

135. "That was a Unanimous vote it is the people that put them there."

"This is not the Government, this is the people."

Since it was a response to my statement that there are good people also, I don't really know how else to read that. Also, I don't see where I'm saying you shouldn't speak out against these things. My response to the original post didn't say anything about their anti-gay laws, only that it's not right to lump all Russians together as though they are of one mind and that Moscow is not a bleak and dreary place.

I really didn't expect to get so many responses to my first post. I just didn't want people to think that Snowden was in some place where there was only suffering. I had a very nice time there.

[sagat]

124. "Everyone was very nice to this American and accepted me as an individual."

You must be white.

[yourmovemonkey]

133. Yeah, that part was weird

I saw one black person the whole time I was there. It did prompt a good discussion with one of my friend's kids though because he used a very bad word to call my attention to that person.

I pointed out to him that the clothes he was wearing, the slang he used, the music he listened to and pretty much everything he recognized as American pop culture had its roots in African American culture first. And that he owed black people more respect because of that. I've believed this for a long time myself, and I think it's solid. What the rest of the world views as American "culture" is actually African American culture.

[liberal_at_heart]

115. I've always wanted to see a Siberian tiger in its natural habitat.

[TeamPooka]

117. welcome to DU!

[yourmovemonkey]

121. Thank you

I've been visiting here and reading for a long time.

[Rhiannon12866]

139. I've also visited Russia and I couldn't have described it better

And I was there just before the USSR fell. This is odd, since I was just telling this to a friend today. The Russian people are just like us, work and hope for the same things. And I found them incredibly kindly disposed towards us - Americans. And this is coming from someone (me) who remembers the bomb drills of my childhood.

One big difference, though, is that most I met from the post WWII generation spoke English (and often other languages). In this country, it seems like bi or trilingualism is discouraged.

Welcome to DU, yourmovemonkey! So glad you decided to join us!

[yourmovemonkey]

144. I am old enough to remember the bomb drills also

I have friends there now, but that is also a reason for my visit. I wanted to visit a place that I was taught as a child to be afraid of.

I believe most Americans have more in common with Russian people than many western Europeans.

Language makes it a difficult country to visit though. I ended up using my high school German (his too) with a cab driver at one point, but we both laughed about it and were patient with each other. English is not common, but I heard that there is a push to make it more available in schools.

Thank you for the welcome.

[treestar]

155. But they don't have a friggin' Bill of Rights!

No Fourth Amendment right not to be spied on. And St. Snowden as temporary asylee certainly does not!

So what then was the point of canonizing him??????????????

This debate has been going on for weeks and one side is apparently insincere. They can quit calling us "authoritarian" since they obviously don't really care about the Constitution as they've claimed. They've simply got a crush on Snowden and are romanticizing his deeds.

[JaneyVee]

110. As someone who has been to Russia 7 times, yes, we are much better. Much much better.

[The Link]

118. I think it is a positive that some of the Snowden haters seem to care about gay rights now.

[JI7]

131. there is a reason why there are Russian Mail Order Brides, but not AMerican mail order brides for

Russia.

[madrchsod]

134. ok...i think that`s sort`a well known

but for all our warts i'll take this country over russia or china.

[Rex]

138. We still got Gitmo cali.

Congress like the idea of holding people forever without a trial, I guess?

[Warren DeMontague]

149. "Heads or Tails"

Call it!

[Douglas Carpenter]

156. clearly Russian has a lot of Abominable things - but I cannot help but think a lot of the hype about

Russian has more to do with attempting to silence a critique of the American Intelligence Industrial Complex than it has anything to do with Russia

[JoeyT]

164. Russia's pretty shitty, even compared to us.

It is a bit silly the number of people that are indifferent, to put it as kindly as possible, to LGBT rights suddenly deciding it's the most important thing in the world. You know, like no one was going to notice the people that defended Rick Warren were suddenly waving rainbow flags. If I thought for a second they'd keep supporting LGBT rights after Snowden isn't an issue any longer I'd be thrilled, but history has shown those opinions will turn on a dime when it's no longer useful to hold them.

Their hypocrisy doesn't make Russia's treatment of LGBT people any better. If someone has to live in a perfect country to be able to criticize other countries, criticism will be dead and no progress will be made anywhere. I can criticize Canada annihilating forests to create huge dumps of toxic waste in the process of extracting oil while recognizing that we not only do the same, but we all share at least some of the blame for what's being done over there. (I chose Canada to pick on because Canada is mostly awesome.) I can criticize Russia for being hateful to LGBT people (And indeed, support any boycotts that crop up) while realizing I live in a country that doesn't really view war crimes as a big deal. The important thing is working to change your country for the better, too.

[Progressive dog]

166. Yup, Russia never invaded anyone without being attacked

first. Russia is just the place for Eddie to vacation in, from his strenuous job.

[dipsydoodle]

168. As the subject is Russia - she's sure got a great National Anthem.

Mother that is :

Stirrin' music innit.