i need help.

[barbtries]

i work with a guy who's really great in many ways but ... libertarian more or less, but HATES Democrats. i want to counter two statements he has made and represented as fact to me.

the first has to do with his hatred of Democrats. when he told me this, he literally pulled out his wallet and tapped it, indicating that he believes totally that Democrats are nothing but "tax and spend" wastrels. he literally pulled out his wallet and pointed at it as he told me how much he hates Democrats.

i think i have seen charts that prove (in a variety of ways) how much better stewards of the economy democrats have always been. i would love to get hold of one of these especially one that illustrates the tax difference between republican and democratic presidents over the years.

the other is his claim, made today that the government is exploding under Obama. i totally do not believe this. i asked him for proof but he only stated that it's true even if i did call him a liar. i would like to show him he's mistaken.

i'm sure i'll get plenty of advice to give up. dude's actually one of my favorite people here at work. thank you all in advance for any assistance.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

1. "the government is exploding under Obama"

First, I'd ask him what that is supposed to mean.

[barbtries]

11. i should have explained better.

according to him, government is growing exponentially. i believe he means in terms of personnel, at least that was my interpretation. he could also be referring to government programs that help the less fortunate i suppose. either way i don't see it.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Actually, Obama has less federal employees than Reagan.

http://www.politicususa.com/en/big-government-obama-reagan

Even PolitiFact says GOP claims are a lie:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/15/john-boehner/john-boehner-says-200000-new-federal-jobs-have-spr/

In previous fact checks, we have rejected the idea of adding temporary Census workers to federal job totals. While the statements we rated previously aren’t structured in exactly the same way as Boehner’s, we think the general principle remains valid -- that when you’re counting the rise or fall in the number of federal workers over a long period of time, it’s cherry picking to count the creation of temporary jobs but not their elimination.

All told, we find that Boehner’s 200,000 number is way off. We rate it False.

**********************
This might help with the first claim.


http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

[barbtries]

12. ah, yes!

thank you. yep. yep. yep.

[hughee99]

3. For the "government exploding", this should help

It's federal employees by year going back to 1962 and it separates military and non-military as well.
http://www.opm.gov/feddata/HistoricalTables/TotalGovernmentSince1962.asp\

The federal government has had more non-military employees than it has now (check the 80's). It also comprises a smaller percentage of the US population as well.

As for the budget, yes, that get's bigger every year, though.

As for "stewards of the economy" that's more of an arguable area, since it can be argued that the economy a president enjoys isn't necessarily a product of their policies, but of those of previous presidents, or not a result of government intervention at all.

[barbtries]

24. this is perfect

thank you so much.

[renie408]

4. Ultimately, do this for yourself.

Cause Jesus could land in this guy's front yard, with the holes in his palms to prove who he is, and tell your coworker that he is wrong and he wouldn't believe him. This guy know's what he knows and that's that. No amount of icky facts or charts are going to change his mind.

My farrier is the nicest guy on earth. I mean, come out on a Sunday afternoon, hold a check for me if a boarder hasn't paid, gives free trims for rescue horses...all around nice guy. Fairly intelligent, too. But he has a blind spot a mile wide when it comes to politics. Democrats are out to spend his hard earned self employed income by giving it to all the undeserving black women who are being paid by the state to have kids. Seriously. He says stuff like that. He dresses it up a little more than that, but that's what it comes down to. I have tried to send him charts, links to articles and illustrations that explain how his thinking is just WRONG. Has it done any good? Nope. I still use him and like him in many ways, I just avoid discussing anything political with him.

[russspeakeasy]

7. My wife is your farrier ?????

[renie408]

13. Only if your wife is a 45 year old guy.

Which I don't have a problem with at all.

[russspeakeasy]

20. Nope. She's a she, but developed a repub brain about 20 years ago.

I thought she must be in constant pain because of all the grimacing and snarling. Turns out it was (is) because we send ALL of our money to people overseas and W couldn't run for a third term and Ronnie still isn't on Mt Rushmore.
I am hiring a food taster, for her, at her insistance.
I'm paying way below minimum wage and no benefits; experience not necessary and the job is temporary .

[renie408]

23. I feel for you and will send you prayers and good thoughts.

That must make for some interesting dinner time conversations, at least.

Do facts work on her at all? If you show her how small an amount we actually pay in foreign aid, does she acknowledge that?

[barbtries]

25. you're right of course.

but i still might print some of these up and whip them out when he's talking shit. i've already told him i don't believe him and have brought up fox news enough that he told me yesterday he doesn't watch fox news. not sure where that blind spot comes from.
i have a brother with whom i do not discuss politics. it's not worth it. i think with my co-worker i think it may be worth it. if he absolutely positively refuses to vote for a democrat come november, maybe he'll at least stay home.

[Arkansas Granny]

40. I work with a few guys that make statements like that. It doesn't matter what you say or

how much proof you offer to dispute their "facts", they refuse to accept the truth. It's willfull ignorance.

[gratuitous]

5. This may be a problem best approached peripherally

If he's determined to be right regardless of what you say or what facts you present, there's little likelihood of presenting a successful direct counterargument. In my experience. It may be better to approach this indirectly. While he's all exercised about taxing and spending, you might mention that that is preferable to borrowing and spending, since the government is going to spend money and has to pay for stuff somehow. Better to have the cash on hand to cover expenses than go into debt, no?

Also, what kind of bang does he get for his tax buck? He gets nice, paved streets to drive on. A responsive fire department should his house or apartment catch on fire. Safe food at restaurants because Health Inspectors are on the job, monitoring food preparation practices and closing non-compliant ptomaine purveyors. If he had to pay for these things (and more) out of his own pocket, he wouldn't have a wallet to tap about how horrible it is to pay for the society he lives in. In reality, he's getting a pretty damned good deal. Unless he's irretrievably immature about benefits and their costs (e.g., "I want everything, and I want it for free! Now!&quot , you can bring these examples to his attention little by little over time.

[barbtries]

26. i do that

still it's so helpful to get these different perspectives. it's like studying so i won't be tongue tied the next time he brings it up. he's a very charitable man and is incensed that he's asked to pay taxes that he then has no say on where they go. welcome to the club i always say, and bring up all the wars. but he seems to be quite comfortable letting poor people live from hand to mouth for all of their lives, no opportunities for education, to get ahead. it's a dichotomy to me but then most republicans are pretty dichotomous.

[southernyankeebelle]

6. Do you honestly think if you had proof to show him he would believe you. I doubt it. You know

the same place that President Bush adminstration got his information is the same place that President Obama gets his information from. Yet the republicans doubt the information. If you must ask the questions you should try and ask it to google. You be surprised the questions they answer and it is helpful.

But for your own sanity don't talk politics because sooner or later it will effect your friendship and he won't believe you. Just don't get yourself sick. Even if you show him proof he doesn't want to believe it. So like I have done to family members I tell them before we get together I do not want to talk politics. If we do I will leave. It worked and we had a great time. Maybe you might want to try that.

[Owlet]

16. Good advice. It's saved more than one friendship for moi. (eom)

[southernyankeebelle]

43. Yes, especially if they are relatives. LOL

[barbtries]

29. that's what i do with my brother.

the difference is i think this man is reasonable and a caring individual. maybe i can help him find that inner democrat...yeah i know, probably not. but i know it happens sometimes; those are my favorite posts to read on DU.

[southernyankeebelle]

42. Good luck to you. I wish I had better ways to get you information. Sometimes silence is golden

and he may see for himself and come around. Hope you can win your friend over.

[barbtries]

44. time will tell.

it doesn't hurt that the economy keeps improving even though, or maybe because, Barack Obama is president.

[southernyankeebelle]

45. Your right. But if it doesn't just tell your friend for the sake of your friendship you don't

want to talk politics and if he does than you will leave the room. I'm tell you it will work.. It did in my family and we all enjoyed the holidays. I hope you can win him over.

[StarsInHerHair]

47. quote Ike

see how that goes over, with youtube videos even

[libtodeath]

8. Ask if he was better off

when Clinton was President or shrub?
Then ask him about the positive economic news that is happening under President Obama.
If that doesn`t shut him up then no point wasting time talking to him anymore.

[TheMastersNemesis]

9. Completely Misguided

I am afraid there is little hope for guys like him. I am glad I am retired and do not have to put up with stupid co workers like this guy. As cruel as what I am going to say will sound, it is my message to libertarians. I know too many myself. My response to him would be that since he is so damned smart about he will only take care of himself and screw everyone else. If he is unfortunate to have heart attack on my watch I would just give him the paddles and he can shock himself. I am being facetious of course. The reason why I think that is that if libertarians have their way we would have 150,000,000 Americans with no health care. And veterans' care would be turned over the private insurance companies. They are sick racist and bigoted individuals.

Here is the problem, libertarians don't want to pay for or help anyone else. In a pinch they are the first ones who want to be rescued. And they demand the best. Nothing is more selfish. Libertarians make my blood boil.

The other side of this issue is that libertarians are just extreme GOPers. No matter how you view their position it always goes back to being a racist or a bigot. What they are really saying is that Democrats and progressives are giving their money to minorities and the undeserved. In the South they use the N word and the S word to make the same statement.

Since the recession the public sector has shrunk considerably. Over 500,000 public workers have lost jobs probably more. Many firefighters and policeman.

I have to give you a lot of credit for working with him. You have little choice. My attitude toward libertarians is a scorched earth policy.

Good luck but I see no way to reach such people. I have given up trying. Best to not talk poltics at all.

[barbtries]

32. thank you.

i think he calls himself a libertarian because he's an absolute tax fiend (as in "i don't want to pay any&quot , AND, he's embarrassed to be republican at this point in time. not that i'll ever hear him admit that out loud.
the racist bigot part: i fear it but nothing he's ever said gives weight to it. i haven't heard it from him so can only guess at it. i generally tend to believe that people who evince an irrational hatred of the president are betraying their bigoted selves. if i learn i'm correct on this point i imagine i will lose all respect and our friendship will end.

[TheMastersNemesis]

46. The Racist Is Disguised In Code

He will never come out directly unless he lets his guard down. The GOP has cleverly masked their real intent in dog whistle code.
It is like looking at one of those puzzles where there are two or more images in the picture. If you look at it long enough you will see two subjects. One view looks like and old witch another view is a beautiful woman.

So with the GOP what you first see is NOT the real picture. It took me quite a while to see that ALL the GOP rhetoric ALWAYS leads back to the background meme "Democrats and progressives and government are giving your money to "N's" and "S's". They use the language and say "undeserved", lazy free loaders, welfare queens, etc. When they attack UI programs, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaide, food stamps, welfare etc. They alway have the racial theme in the background. They are ALWAYS implying that ONLY minorities mostly benefit from these programs.

Look at how many times you will hear a Republican, conservative or libertarian say that they don't want to pay for someone else's health care. They don't want to pay for someone's birth control. Using the religious freedom argument. It is all about race, always has been and always will be. The core of the GOP is the KKK mentality. It is a master race sentiment.

I worked at DOL for 24 years. All this code is second nature to me because of the job that I did. What most people do not realize is that 80% of the people using these programs are white and most of them are in the South. They are trailer park inhabitants for the most part.

That unconscious racial tag is extremely difficult to overcome because facts will never matter. Believe me I have lost almost all the friends I used to play golf with. I could hear that racial theme every time they opened their mouth about politics.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. It's his claim, it's up to him to prove it.

Until then, he's lying.

... which he is, in fact.

"Hey look. You're welcome to your own opinion, and your hatred is perfectly valid to you. But you're not entitled to your own facts, and the actual facts show that hatred to be completely divorced from reality. If you were intelligent, informed and interested in the economy, the debt and your wages and taxes, then you'd be a democrat."

The top graph is federal government employment per thousand population.
The bottom graph is what democrats do to for your income vs what republicans do.

[barbtries]

15. thank you

and to all who responded. i'll try to get back to everyone after i've gone home.
a lot of good information and advice too.
we maintain a cordial relationship and he's such a great person in so many ways. he has blind spots. i know it's probably hopeless. i may not even share what i've learned, but at least in the moment i'll be able to counter his false claims and THEN, if he wants to see the proof, i'll have it.

[The Genealogist]

14. Concerning his second claim: "The government is exploding under Obama."

You asked for proof. His answer was "that it's true even if [you] did call him a liar." He lost the argument. The burden of proof was on him, and he failed to provide anything but a childish retort. Sounds like typical RW garbage. Guy on AM radio/spokesmodel at FAUX SNOOZE/RW book makes statement, so it must be true.

As for the first "statement," best to just tell him "you're free to believe what you want." He BELIEVES x about Democrats, thus it is true. My guess is you are going to win this debate with him as well. Probably will be another "waahhh you attacked me" when you try to respond.

[barbtries]

34. he's never done that to me

but i have seen him do that with another co worker. who said something that was just. plain. true.

[Chipper Chat]

17. Disable the AM band on his car radio

so he can't listen to Rush Limbaugh.

[barbtries]

35. right?

it could be rush since he denies watching fox news.

[JHB]

18. The nuggets of truth buried in that pile of elephant dung...

1) They claimed government employment shot up under Obama: to the extend it was true it was mostly temporary workers for the 2010 Census. Once that was over, the jobs disappeared. No expanding State Apparatus.

2) government spending as a percentage of GDP rose under Obama: true, but that was due to 2 related things: 1) the Great Recession, which dropped GDP. when you divide one number by another and the denominator becomes smaller, it will boost the result, even if the numerator doesn't change at all. That's not wastrelhood, that's just math. 2) more safety net spending, since the recession upended their means of fully supporting themselves. Working people don't collect unemployment.

My best advice with this person is to ask him why he believes these things. Ask him to go into detail and to tell you how hw knows these things. It might (and I stress the non-inevitable nature of the word "might&quot lay the groundwork for you to get him to question his assumtions. Just don't hold your breath. Odds are nothing will make him change his mind short of losing his job and having to rely on all those Democratic wastrel programs, and maybe not even then.

[barbtries]

36. good advice and excellent points you make there.

i don't think on my feet that well, but if we get to talking again like we did yesterday i will have all the points on my side. he might - i say, might - listen.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

19. Both parties are "something and spend"

Government programs cost money.

Dems would LIKE to be "tax and spend". But Republicans block all tax bills. So we continue the Bush/Cheney policy of "borrow and spend".

I like the "tax and spend" model. It seems more fiscally responsible, almost more (prepare for the "C" word) ... conservative. Pay as you go.

I just wish we could aim the "spend" part at health care, education, infrastructure, and move away from war on islam, war on drugs, and the whole anti-terror theater that is DHS/TSA.

[barbtries]

38. me too.

education, infrastructure, health care. no more war! one thing he and i agree about.

[handmade34]

21. facts are a funny thing... anti-Democrats can't understand...

http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/index.php/Debate:_Democrats_vs._Republicans#Taxes







http://thislifeandtime.blogspot.com/2008/09/democrat-vs-republican-presidents.html

[barbtries]

33. totally what i was looking for.

thank you so much.

i love DU. don't you love DU???

[Bluerthanblue]

22. interesting article about what a GOP election would mean-

Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) -- The tax and spending plans of the leading Republican presidential candidates would add to the U.S. debt, according to a nonpartisan report.

The plans of Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney would each add trillions of dollars to the debt over the next decade, according to an analysis released today by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget in Washington. The Republican contenders criticize President Barack Obama for spending programs that contributed to a trillion-dollar budget deficit.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2012/02/23/bloomberg_articlesLZUNKD6JIJX901-LZV1A.DTL#ixzz1nFKvhIqE

[barbtries]

28. there it is.

thank you.

[elleng]

27. One small piece. I knew DUers would help.

http://www.barackobama.com/jobsrecord?source=20120205_pg_dncfull&utm_medium=email&utm_source=obama&utm_campaign=20120205_pg_dncfull

[barbtries]

30. DUers are the best

thank you!

[elleng]

31. You're welcome.

Here's a 'think' piece for you. NICE that you like him in spite of his 'foolishness.' That's the way of the world.


http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/154252/the_republican_brain:_why_even_educated_conservatives_deny_science_--_and_reality?page=3#v=onepage&q=old%20enlightenment%20reason&f=false

and another:

http://explainer.net/2011/01/george-lakoff/

[barbtries]

37. you know, he's a good person.

even good people sometimes end up with their heads up their ass.

[elleng]

41. Right, barb. 'FUNNY' image!

[Enrique]

39. tell him we should be spending more

when I talk to conservatives, I never try to get them to become Democrats, I try to get them to become progressives.