L.A.'s shooting season: from the doctor's view (Graphic Content Warning)

[theHandpuppet]

Will this madness ever end??

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gunshot-surgeon-20130818-dto,0,1798386.htmlstory

Surgeon races to save a life in L.A.'s shooting season
A trauma surgeon and the staff at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center struggle to save a youth with a bullet in his torso. By Thomas Curwen
Photography and video by Barbara Davidson
Aug. 18, 2013

The season of shootings has begun on time. Last year, from July through September, this Torrance hospital treated 107 gunshot victims, the highest number in the county.

This year, four GSWs — medical shorthand for gunshot wounds — arrived on the first day of summer. One was a suicide and three were assaults. Three died and one would probably be discharged in a few days.

Now, on June 23, two more have come in, both teenagers, both assaults. They walked through the front door at 2:25 a.m., no EMTs, no police. The hospital staff calls it the homeboy ambulance service: patients brought in with injuries often from gang shootings...

<snipping>

Putnam, 44, estimates that he has treated about 5,000 GSWs and consulted on nearly 2,000 more over the last 20 years, 10 of them at Harbor-UCLA. The victims he remembers the most are the children and women, the bystanders hit by stray fire, the wounded who spoke to him in the ER but died in the operating room.... MORE

[Robb]

1. If only these young men had guns, they could defend themselves.

Make guns less available, of course, and every summer they'd attack one another with hammers and swimming pools.

[theHandpuppet]

2. "It's just too much."

"Why guns?" Putnam asks. "Why so many guns? It once was fistfights. It once was stabbings. Now it's a whole new world out there, and with guns, it's just too much."

[rl6214]

50. Most of them gang related

Deal with the gang problem and most of them go away.

[Robb]

53. Ah yes. "Gangs." "Thugs."

Your dog whistle is noted.

[rl6214]

54. I said nothing about thugs, you are the only one hearing your dog whistle

Down here on the border, gangs are Mexican and Caucasian alike until you get south of the border and they are Mexican gangs. So enlighten us all on what your "thugs" reference really is.

[Duckhunter935]

55. Big problem in El Paso also

Gangs and tagging, turf wars

[Duckhunter935]

3. California

with some of the most stringent gun laws. I am glad all of those people are obeying them. I am sure if we do those laws all over the country we will get a different result. Maybe get rid if the drug laws and go after the gangs?

[Loudly]

4. Guns and ammo are still pouring out of the factories.

Until we turn off the spigot, "good" guns will become bad guns.

Laws which purport to distinguish between who may and shouldn't have them are no substitute for making them generally unavailable to everyone.

[Duckhunter935]

6. "nobodies talking about bans"

I hear that a lot, are you also for confiscation of the hundreds on millions of weapons and billions of rounds of ammunition out there now? What should be done to end this?

[VADem1980]

8. Nobody is talking about bans PUBLICLY.

But many sane progressives are pushing for bans behind the scenes. The second amendment is out dated, unnecessary, and formed from racism.

They need to start with a national firearms registry and assault weapon /handgun registry, and then a slow walk towards repeal of the 2A and seizure of every gun.

As one of the greatest progressives of our time said "Mr. and Mrs. America, GIVE'EM UP!"

[Eleanors38]

9. "Nobody wants to take your guns away." Thanks for disabusing DU

Members of that meme.

And anyone else that wants reasoned proposals.

"Behind the scenes:" Uh, we knew that.

[rl6214]

52. Gotta be a troll post

Some bodies sock puppet.

[Eleanors38]

63. Yes, it can't be true. Who would be serious about that.

[Marengo]

11. DiFi is one of the greatest progressives of our time?

Are you certain you want to roll with that?

[X_Digger]

15. Err.. the same DiFi who wants to decide who's a journalist? And MIC supporter?

http://watchdog.org/100682/feinstein-wants-to-limit-who-can-be-a-journalist/

Somehow, I don't think 'progressive' means what you think it means.

[Marengo]

16. LOL Right!? I think it must be a joke or someone....

With less than honest intentions.

[X_Digger]

17. Has to be tongue planted firmly in cheek. n/t

[tumtum]

19. Repeal of the 2A and seizure of every gun?

So, are you going to be there with those that will be trying to seize every gun? If not, why not?

[VADem1980]

20. I don't need to "be there" to confiscate the guns.

All those helicopters in your post are perfect examples of why resistance to confiscation is futile.

I can't even believe people are arguing this point. The Rude Pundit has some great posts about why the gun humpers wouldn't be a problem- 99% of the teabaggers would crap their pants and hand'em over after the first few SWAT teams raided their homes and got the illegal weapons off the street.

In any case, a gun free society is not something that could happen over night anyway, without a major and sudden power shift in government, but I think with continual pressure we could slowly roll back death-spitter possession.

[friendly_iconoclast]

22. Then you'll be a chickenhawk, to put it bluntly.

You also seem to have missed the slight detail that the US had lots and lots of helicopters-
in both Viet Nam and Afghanistan and in both cases failed to defeat their opponents.

Your grasp of history is on a par with your grasp of politics.

[tumtum]

25. Well, it has come to my attention that you have no idea of the level of resistance

that would come of an order of confiscation, but, I will attempt to get an answer from you, will you volunteer for the fantasy confiscation teams?

[Bazinga]

47. You're not talking about a gun-free society.

Black helicopters and armed SWAT doesn't sound very gun-free to me, even if it goes exactly as planned.

I think you're right that it would take a major power shift in the government, however I disagree that that is a good thing.

[tumtum]

48. See the picture on the far right of the UH-1B Huey?

That's what I flew during my first tour in Vietnam, I was shot down in the same type of chopper by guess what?
A VC with an AK-47, and that was over 40 years ago.
With today's more modern rifles, how hard do you think it would be to shoot down or damage a helicopter.

You have no idea or experience of being under fire from a hostile force, do you?

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. And you'll be volunteering to be on a seizure squad, I take it?

Just one question: Will you be armed or unarmed?

[friendly_iconoclast]

27. After reading post #20, I guess not.

I've no doubt, however, you'll be right there Supporting The Troops- probably with a cheap bumpersticker...

[VADem1980]

64. And what would you say...

if I told you I was disabled and incapable of being on such a squad? hmmmm?

Do disabled people not have a right to political opinion?

What if it was a different type of crime? A child molester is armed and inside a house- I guess by your logic because I, personally, am unable due to mental, physical, or social reasons to be a police officer I would have no right advocating that a SWAT team go in and grab the guy?

Sorry, we don't live in Sparta, and people who aren't part of the military-industrial complex have a right to advocate for policies that make the nation safer.

A chickenhawk would imply I want to go to war with a foreign power, which I'm not. I, like MANY other DU'ers and progressives across the nation, simply believe that the 2A leads to more violence and massacres and it is a proven fact it was implemented due to the racist fear of a slave uprising.

[friendly_iconoclast]

65. You're a culture warrior that cavalierly expects others to face dangers that you won't.

Your conflation of gun owners and child molestors makes it plain.
Furthermore, you are remarkably ignorant of the history of counterinsurgency.

Here's a hint for you: It usually doesn't work- the British Army went into Northern Ireland in 1969
expecting they'd only be there for a few months.
They were still there twenty years later- and the various Republican groups never had anywhere near
the proportion of the population that gun owners are in the States.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023476451

All those helicopters in your post are perfect examples of why resistance to confiscation is futile.

I can't even believe people are arguing this point. The Rude Pundit has some great posts about why the gun humpers wouldn't be a problem- 99% of the teabaggers would crap their pants and hand'em over after the first few SWAT teams raided their homes and got the illegal weapons off the street.

Which proves that some posters at the The Rude Pundit are just as much fools as those that thought
World War I would be "over by Christmas" and those who claimed Iraqis would be surrendering
en masse and embracing Americans as liberators thanks to 'shock and awe'...

[Loudly]

12. With those kind of numbers, why would you think more are needed?

Confiscation is truly a straw man argument when such an unhealthy appetite continues to be overly fed.

[Duckhunter935]

13. So you are telling me I

should not have the right to purchase a new weapon even though it is a legal product to manufacture, However I could purchase a used weapon that I do not know the history of and could possibly be dangerous. No new weapons would sure make the used weapon market go up and increase theft as prices rise. I assume you will be able to repeal the 2nd amendment to implement your scheme.

[Loudly]

14. The 2A doesn't need to be repealed, just correctly interpreted.

And jurisprudence concerning its applicability to manufacture, distribution and sale is where the real work lies.

[friendly_iconoclast]

24. I've seen similar arguments concerning the Fourth Amendment recently.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. tell you what, I don't want to repeal it

you want to have an AR-15, fine. I want you to report for DRILL EVERY MONTH. It's easy.

I want you to be part of a well organized militia. And when war comes, I want you mobilized for that war.

The well organized militia is conveniently ignored. But you want to have your AR-15... fine by me, as long as you report for drill every month. You are not able, or more likely unwilling. then those weapons should be turned in to the nearest Armory, at market value.

[Duckhunter935]

29. well until

you get the USSC to change the current interpretation of the meaning of the second amendment. I will keep my weapons in the safe and every so often go to the local range and shoot some paper targets. At the time the 2nd was written "well regulated" meant well equipped.

In United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), the Supreme Court ruled that the amendment "[protects arms that had a] reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia".

In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment "codified a pre-existing right" and that it "protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home"

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Don't worry, nations change...

and the US will not be the first one to change that definition, IN fact, well behind the power curve... but it will happen. And when it does, it will be rather sudden too.

[Duckhunter935]

34. Well I have about

30-40 years. If change happens so be it. I am not holding my breath anytime soon.

[Loudly]

40. 58 years between Plessy and Brown v. Board of Ed.

But the precedent fell when it was adjudged to be

[theHandpuppet]

57. Hmmm... serious question

How was it ever decided that "well-regulated" militia meant "well-equipped" militia? Militias even back in colonial days were required to gather for training on a regular basis and those were led by militia officers. There were punishments for men who did not fulfill that duty. And I know that their training consisted of more than going out to the range on their own and shooting at paper targets.

[petronius]

33. The word is "regulated", not "organized"

And the right protected by 2A isn't predicated on belonging to a regulated (or organized) militia, the right is protected in order to preserve the possibility of creating such militias.

IMO, requiring organized militia membership for gun owners to qualify for 2A rights is no less wrong than requiring that journalists be salaried employees of recognized media entities to qualify for 1A protections...

[Duckhunter935]

36. that line of thinking

will cause heads to explode like infinity times infinity.

[theHandpuppet]

58. +1

I have a few creative definitions for bullshit, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Well, will see...we have way too many guns

And that is that.

The second part is simply ignore, with a nice ellipsis, and that is that

As to credentialed journalists...while I agree, the credentials do have a function...nor are they that hard to get...nor will it stand the courts...but sorry, the second was meant to keep militias, before organized militaries...and latter to chase slaves.

IMO the second is as archaic as the Third.

[friendly_iconoclast]

28. "Confiscation is truly a straw man argument." Not after certain posters forgot to keep...

...it on the d/l.

[rl6214]

51. If its not the guns it will become something else

Fix the drug and gang problem you fix the shooting problem.

When the tsarnayevs bombed the Boston marathon it wasn't the bomb problem, it was the bombers. Why is this different?

[Robb]

5. Every pipe in the building leaks, you shoot the plumber that's just finished fixing the first floor.

(facepalm)

[Egalitarian Thug]

7. Sure, we can all but end it in a couple of months, but nobody's even willing to talk about

solutions. Two things, poverty and the second. Both of them hard to do and neither of them has any backing from people that matter.

[ellisonz]

10. Where are these guns coming from?

[hunter]

18. Many are stolen.

Or bought legally by people associated with the gangs (drug customers, relatives, etc.) but not on law enforcement's radar yet.

Handguns are one of the major targets of burglars. Gangsters don't want your television or your x-box. They can buy those at Best Buy or Target like everyone else.

It's not difficult to take a handgun from some legal owner who has it to "protect themselves," and is likely to be too embarrassed or afraid to report the loss to the police.

[theHandpuppet]

23. Straw purchases in this part of the country

Bought in Virginia and they end up in D.C. in the hands of criminals.

[hunter]

32. Yep. There's money in that.

Especially if the straw purchaser is compromised by a drug habit, hookers, or just plain lust for money.

"Guns are like hammers," no, not because both can kill, but because they are very durable. It takes some work to destroy a gun. (An arc welder or a big sledge hammer works well. Or my mom when she's pissed off.)

There's a lot of "two for one" trading going on. If you examined the "collections" of gun collectors you'd find plenty of guns missing and unaccounted for.

[spin]

30. Ending our War on Drugs, which we lost decades, ago and legalizing ...

some drugs such as marijuana would do far more to decrease gun violence in our nation than passing laws that make it difficult for honest people to buy and own firearms.

A high percentage of gun violence in our nation is caused by drug gangs fighting over turf. Innocent people often tragically die or are injured in the crossfire.

Even if we passed a ban on the possession of all firearms and successfully convinced honest citizens to turn them in, drug gangs would still have firearms. If the drug cartels can sneak tons of marijuana into our nation every year, it would be child's play for them to smuggle firearms into our nation to arm the drug dealers.

[Duckhunter935]

35. ban on firearms

works wonders in Mexico. Best thing we could do is legalize certain drugs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. You know they are coming from the states right?

In fact Texas and AZ to be specific.

[Duckhunter935]

39. Yes I know some are

but heavy weapons and grenades, rockets, mortars and fully automatic machine guns are coming from the government and south of the Mexican border. Enough money can buy anything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Most of them, including 50 cal

Sniper systems.

There is some coming from the rest of the weapons market, but the vast majority is coming from the United States, and going south through the Camino de Hormigas.

A 2012 US government study found that 70 percent of firearms recovered in Mexico over a five-year period could be traced to the US.

http://m.insightcrime.org/pages/article/3943

70% is hardly some.

[Duckhunter935]

42. from the study

"However, ATF Special Agent John Hageman cautioned the data could not be seen as definitive proof that 70 percent of the weapons used by Mexican organized criminals come from the US. In 2009, Mexico's military possessed 305,424 confiscated guns, and as, the ATF noted, the numbers provided Thursday represented only those trace requests voluntarily submitted to the bureau by authorities in Mexico. What's more, around 30 percent of trace data left the firearms' source country undetermined."

I am sure they requested traces on all weapons too include fully automatic weapons and grenades, rockets. or could they have cherry picked the requests?

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I am sure you are missing the point, obviously.

Most of the weapons captured are not grenade launchers, or bazookas or anything like that.

Most are small arms, semi automatic. The largest in the category are 50 cal

As to the grenades...what can I say? Many of them have also come from the US.

I follow this very closely. You believe what you chose to believe. I know what the facts are. Facts are nothing. Have a good day.

[Duckhunter935]

45. yes

we will disagree and the facts are what they are. I lived for 15 years in El Paso and know what is going on down there and what types of weapons are pictured in the news. You also have a great day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I live in San Diego and worked in Tijuana EMS for ten years

Oh and grew up in Mexico City.

Yup the facts are what they are, and far from the NRA talking point

[Duckhunter935]

56. the only talking points I have seen

are from the anti-gun side. The list and how to put them out is on this board. I have not seen the list from the NRA but every thing a a RKBA person says is an NRA talking point. I guess it just is an easy canned response when you do not have the facts to respond to a given point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. i am sorry...but guns are not

Coming from the US or few are, IS an NRA talking point

[NutmegYankee]

61. "NRA talking point" is the new "Nazi" of Godwin fame. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Go argue with media matters

That caught Wayne "I am not President of the NRA" making this exact point to fox

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2011/08/08/fox-hosts-nras-lapierre-to-push-gun-trafficking/182705

[Liberal_in_LA]

43. unfortunately' that's life in LA. thanks for posting this

[theHandpuppet]

46. I'd say you're welcome...

...but it's sad that such a report even exists. I have to question what we have become as a nation when the slaughter of children on our streets has become merely "the price of doing business" in the USA.
It is also telling that of all the threads currently running on DU, this journalist's piece has so comparatively few recommendations.
Be well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Thanks for the reminder

I completely forgot to recommend it.

That said, urban violence in the inner city has rarely attracted the attention of the cool kids in the burbs...it's not now...it's been decades

[theHandpuppet]

66. How true

Either that, or what start as discussions about urban violence turn into virtual flame wars. I don't know why this is a subject for which we can't even have a rational discussion. If guns had not been a part of this article, perhaps... but then, we can't ignore that particular aspect of the problem, either. it just IS. I just hate it that anything broaching the subject of gun violence, even in a peripheral way, turns into a Second Amendment argument. Even I get drawn into it sometimes and that pisses me off. There's a virtual genocide going on in our inner cities and I'm not sure how we can begin to have a dialogue if we're supposed to pretend that these kids are being killed in fistfights.