The leak was an attempt to bolster the libertarian brand.

[ProSense]

In late June, I said that the leak was an attempt to bolster the libertarian brand.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023065177

I mentioned some of the posturing by and for Rand Paul. Now it's becoming clear that this is the case. Reposting the information from the link and adding to it.

Ron Paul: ‘We Should Be Thankful’ For Edward Snowden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022985822

Ron Paul Channel's very first show: Interview with Greenwald
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023474591

Assange/Wikileaks talk about who they admire…wait for it…& the answer is Ron/Rand Paul & Matt Drudge
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023472701

Assange Says Rand Paul Is The Only Hope For America
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023474700

The Rand Paul moment

By: Rich Lowry

<...>

This is the kind of issue Rand Paul was born and (literally) raised to raise holy hell over. And it isn’t just the NSA program lately. The leak about the program came on the heels of revelations that the IRS was singling out tea party groups for extra scrutiny and invasive questions, and on the heels of the AP and James Rosen investigations.

<...>

At least for some stretch of 2015, Rand Paul could well be the Republican front-runner, tapping into grass-roots enthusiasm on the model of Howard Dean in 2003. And it’s not inconceivable that he could go further than that famous representative of “the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party,” although the field will presumably be very crowded on the right.

Paul has a built-in online and grass-roots network of the sort it takes years to build. In fact, it did. His father built it, and now he’s working to expand it in his extensive travels. Over those years, his father welcomed into his fold cranks and haters, and one of Rand Paul’s quiet messages is that he has his father’s core convictions, without the loathsome baggage.

I’m far from a Rand Paul-ite. I don’t think there was ever any threat of Americans being droned sitting at cafes, nor do I think drones are the scariest invention in the history of flight. I’m not where Paul is on foreign or national security policy, and I doubt his libertarianism has as much cross-over appeal in blue states as he hopes. (Blue state moderates like government, alas.)...libertarianism is a significant strand on the right. It should be represented, and represented well. By and large, Rand Paul does that. Anyone underestimating him in 2016 does so at their peril.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/the-rand-paul-moment-93085.html

They are hoping that Paul can ride this wave to 2016.

Another NSA "Bombshell" Starts to Fizzle Out, as Greenwald Pushes Government Conspiracy Theory
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023478767

Rand Paul: ‘I’m Not A Firm Believer In Democracy…It Gave Us Jim Crow’

The New Republic's Julia Ioffe has a big profile with quite the cover photo on 2016 hopeful and Tea Party favorite Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) that went online Monday.

Ioffe reports on a little publicized remark Paul made at Simmons College, a historically black college in Louisville, where Paul sat with students and professors.

"I'm not a firm believer in democracy," he said in April. "It gave us Jim Crow."

Here's the quote in its full context:

And rather than try to prove that the Republican Party had been good to blacks once upon a time, he focused on how the Republican Party could be good to them today. He talked about decriminalizing drug offenses and getting rid of the mandatory sentencing minimums that put so many young black men in jail. He talked about fixing the local school system, about not abolishing Pell grants “as long as it’s in the context of spending what you have.” To approving nods, he talked about how urban renewal had really meant “urban destruction” and about how “they tore down a lot of black businesses so people would go to white stores.” He found that this crowd, if not totally convinced, was receptive. Though he would still not give them a definitive answer on his position on the Civil Rights Act, he did say that he believed federal intervention had been justified. “I’m not a firm believer in democracy,” he explained. “It gave us Jim Crow."

In 2010 Paul controversially said that he oppossed certain aspects of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, specifically the provision that prohibits private businesses from excluding anyone on the basis of race. He has since backed away from this comment.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/rand-paul-im-not-firm-believer-in-democracy

FAIL!

Rand Paul in his own words
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023475014

[NoOneMan]

1. Well there used to be another political faction in favor of civil liberties you know

Long ago.

[ProSense]

5. Yeah,

"Well there used to be another political faction in favor of civil liberties you know"

...let's compare.

Here's Where Rand Paul Can Find 'Objective Evidence' of Vote Suppression
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023476402

Sen. Rand Paul: Civil Rights Act Was Overreach Because "I Can't Have A Cigar Bar Anymore"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023065177

Rand Paul, Supposed Defender Of Civil Liberties, Calls For Jailing People Who Attend ‘Radical Political Speeches’
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/05/31/232182/rand-paul-criminalize-speech/

And from the OP: Rand Paul: ‘I’m Not A Firm Believer In Democracy…It Gave Us Jim Crow’

Compare:

Holder Stands Up for the Right to Vote

Today’s excellent New York Times editorial rightfully praises Attorney General Eric Holder’s efforts this week to highlight the sanctity of the right to vote in America. In his speech from the Lyndon Baines Johnson presidential library in Austin, Texas, the attorney general said, “The right to vote is not only the cornerstone of our system of government — it is the lifeblood of our democracy. And no force has proved more powerful — or more integral to the success of the great American experiment — than efforts to expand the franchise.”

But this year, we’ve seen a coordinated effort to shrink our democracy and push voters out of the electorate as legislatures across the country have passed laws that will make it harder for Americans – particularly African-Americans, the elderly, students and people with disabilities – to exercise their fundamental right to cast a ballot. The Department of Justice plays a critical role in fighting back against these voter suppression laws. The agency can challenge discriminatory voting laws and stop them from going into effect.

Take action and tell Attorney General Holder you agree with his efforts to protect the right to vote.

http://www.aclu.org/blog/voting-rights/holder-stands-right-vote

Smarter Sentencing

By THE EDITORIAL BOARD

You know a transformational moment has arrived when the attorney general of the United States makes a highly anticipated speech on a politically combustible topic and there is virtually no opposition to be heard.

That describes the general reaction to Eric Holder Jr.’s announcement on Monday that he was ordering “a fundamentally new approach” in the federal prosecution of many lower-level drug offenders. What once would have elicited cries of “soft on crime” now drew mostly nods of agreement. As Mr. Holder said, it’s “well past time” to take concrete steps to end the nation’s four-decade incarceration binge — the result of harsh sentencing laws enacted in response to increased violent crime in the late 1960s and 1970s.

The statistics have been repeated so often as to be numbing: 1.57 million Americans in state and federal prisons, an increase of more than 500 percent since the late 1970s, at a cost of $80 billion annually. In 2010, more than 7 in 100 black men ages 30 to 34 years old were behind bars. The federal system alone holds 219,000 inmates, 40 percent above its capacity, thanks to strict sentencing guidelines and mandatory minimum sentences. Of these inmates, nearly half are in prison for drug-related crimes.

In Mr. Holder’s words, “too many Americans go to too many prisons for far too long, and for no truly good law enforcement reason.” Many criminal-justice experts have long felt the same way. What made Mr. Holder’s speech timely and important was that it reflected a fundamental shift in thinking about crime and punishment at the highest levels of government.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/14/opinion/smarter-sentencing.html

ACLU: How to Process Eric Holder’s Major Criminal Law Reform Speech
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023451453

You see, the attempts to portray Rand Paul as somehow filling a gap left by Democrats is simply designed to hype Rand Paul. It has no basis in reality.

[ProSense]

11. I forgot to include this

Rand Paul Outlines Budget Plan At CPAC

Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) on Thursday outlined the basics of a budget plan he will release this month to balance the budget in five years. Rep. Paul Ryan's (R-WI) budget released this week attempts to acomplish that goal in 10 years.

"My budget eliminates the Department of Education," Paul said at Conservative Political Action Conference to much applause.

He continued: "My five-year budget will create millions of jobs by cutting the corporate income tax in half by creating a flat personal income tax of 17 percent and cutting the regulations that are strangling American business. The only stimulus ever proven to work is leaving more money in the hands of those who earned it."

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/rand-paul-outlines-budget-plan-at-cpac

More proposals from Paul's budget:

Eliminate the Government Printing Office
Eliminate the Agriculture Research Service
Eliminate the National Institute of Food and Agriculture
Eliminate the Foreign Agriculture Service
Block Grant Food Stamps and Child Nutrition Program
Eliminate the Department of Commerce; transfer the Bureau of the Census, the Patent and Trademark Office, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the International Trade Administration to other appropriate agencies.
Eliminate the Department of Energy; transfer the Atomic Energy Agency and all nuclear research laboratories to re-established Atomic Energy Commission
Block grant Medicaid and State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
Eliminate the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD)
Privatize the Transportation Security Administration (Remember Paul's litte charade with the TSA? Who could have guessed?)
Collect delinquent taxes from federal employees
Reduce the amount of travel by federal employees
Repeal the Davis-Bacon Prevailing Wage Law
Sell federal lands
Reform the implementation and oversight of government payments; reduce Improper Payments
Open Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for Oil and Gas Exploration
Permit the Keystone pipeline

http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/A%20Platform%20to%20Revitalize%20America.pdf

[East Coast Pirate]

126. Oh hey,

thanks for including more wall-o-text and more blue links! You're changing the world ten blue links at a time.

[tridim]

141. Don't read them ECP, because facts are just awful.

[NoOneMan]

153. What facts?

The blue links just illustrate Ron Paul is an asshole. They have nothing to do with the conspiracy theory suggested in the OP

[ProSense]

149. Here's another

"thanks for including more wall-o-text and more blue links! You're changing the world ten blue links at a time."

..."blue link"

Obama's second term: A productive six months.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023482199

[Mojorabbit]

157. Nobody cares about Ron Paul. I cannot understand your fixation on him

He barely made a blip in the last election. His son has zero chance of ever becoming President. He is a sideshow. You have wasted countless moments of your life posting about him that you will never get back.

[Waiting For Everyman]

2. The Constitution doesn't belong to a faction.

You labeled your post a "FAIL" correctly.

[darkangel218]

3. The leak was an attempt to bolster the libertarian brand??

Are you freaking serious????!??



And how do you explain then that people who strongly aprove of Snowden come from all walks of political life???

Omg and I thought I had heard it all!!

[Whisp]

9. because people from all walks of life bought the Pet Rock? n/t

[darkangel218]

15. I said political life.

Yah, pretty much anyone who gives a damn about the Constitution.

[1StrongBlackMan]

30. Pretty much anyone ...

who accepts the libertarian frame of consitutional violations.

Tell me ... how does one claim a "right to privacy" or the expectation of a privacy right, when they consent to provide information to third parties (corporations) that explicitedly indicate they will sell/share that information to whomever they choose?

[darkangel218]

41. Because it should be UP TO US TO WHO WE CHOSE TO DISCLOSE WHAT!

That's how.

So info such as your email address, or the fact that you enjoy red wine for dinner, etc, may be sold to third parties. But not every single fucking thing!

[1StrongBlackMan]

70. Really? ...

So you have a say in who gets to buy your data from your internet data-collector?

[darkangel218]

79. They dont colect everything like the NSA does! and if i dont want

The internet trolls to see what I like, I simply don't log on.

Can you do the same with the nsa?? Hm? Can you turn them " off"??

[MNBrewer]

139. The NSA is purchasing this information?

[nebenaube]

179. who else?

You think these dot.coms just managed to do the right thing? Pfft, they would have folded long ago; it's the only reason they are in business.

[stevenleser]

72. It was and you did. You agreed to the terms of service. nt

[darkangel218]

81. Terms of service which are fully disclosed.

Not until a whistleblower decides he has had enough.

[1StrongBlackMan]

76. For my previous response ...

I just read the title line ... Now having read the body of the response, all I can say is "What?!?"

[darkangel218]

83. Enjoy your spying. To each their own i guess.

[Warren Stupidity]

112. So, if I agree to allow a third party, for example a house cleaner, to enter

My house, I have, in your opinion, ceded my 4th amendment rights with respect to my house and the government is now free to search my house without a warrant?

[Bluenorthwest]

122. That poster will not respond to actual questions. The meme he pushes is frightening, consent is the

same as no consent, ie 'No means Yes'. And of course the right to procreative choice is all about the right to privacy as well, one has to assume those who claim there is no right to or indeed any extant privacy oppose choice.

[treestar]

125. The housecleaner can tell the government or anyone

what he/she saw.

[Warren Stupidity]

128. Yes, but that was not the claim that was made. Have I ceded my 4th amendment rights?

[treestar]

217. No.

Government still needs PC. But the housekeeper might give it to them and you can't claim that's an invasion of privacy.

[Warren Stupidity]

221. If the housekeeper is in possession of my information the government needs a

constitutionally valid warrant to examine that information. The fact that I've allowed my housekeeper to be in possession of it does not change anything wrt the 4th amendment. Consider a newspaper in possession of information that the government would like to have - the newspaper has collected this information from a third party, say me. The fact that I gave the newspaper the information does not remove 4th amendment protections. The government still needs a warrant to seize this information, that warrant must comply with all of the restrictions of the 4th.

[1StrongBlackMan]

22. LOL ...

Please post a "Put down your coffee" warning before such posts!

Thank you kindly.

[darkangel218]

51. Im glad you find our Constitution funny.

Did you feel the same when Bush did it?

[blm]

67. Did you feel the same way when GOP congress INSTITUTIONALIZED it years before

Obama took office? Did Snowden?

[darkangel218]

69. Yes i did. And Obama couldve changed it, but he didnt.

[blm]

183. When? When in the last 4 years did Obama accumulate the power base to

Last edited Sun Aug 18, 2013, 05:16 PM - Edit history (1)

overturn an intel and security network that had been forged into iron since the 70s? Clinton couldn't do it, and neither could Obama. Why do you think the GOP worked so vigorously from the starting gate to keep Obama off balance so publicly? It isn't ALL about election cycles and the budgets, it's also about the accumulation of power while in the WH. The Bush-Cheney administrations wielded power effortlessly because they had 40 years of a power base. Obama was even having trouble getting the Clinton wing under control.

[CakeGrrl]

216. Well-said.

It's not the so-called "Obamabots" who think the President has the magic wand to make everything better. And trying to explain the REALITY of what does or does not or can or cannot happen in Washington gets you labeled an "apologist".

[1StrongBlackMan]

84. First ...

there is no constitutional violation; Secondly, I was laughing about the thought that people are gullibile enough to buy a pet rock; but apparently folks are NOT gullible enough to buy a fear based concern that we should act on something that is not happening because the government COULD do something really bad, IF they decided to act really bad.

AND to extend that ... the thought that expressing outrage on the interwebz, will affect anything is equally as humorous.

[darkangel218]

86. "there is no constitutional violation"

Like I said, enjoy it.

[RC]

133. No constitutional violation? What constitutes a violation of the Constitution for you?

Or does the fact that those that are violating the Constitution, denying that they are, enough for you?

Now where is that list of bridges I have for sale?

[elehhhhna]

12. i know, right? this thread is heading for the dungeon imo

CA, bigtime.

[ProSense]

14. Are you denying the facts/links related to Assange, Greenwald and the Pauls?

Are you saying that Assange didn't make his statement about Rand Paul?

[ProSense]

21. Also,

remember this comment from Snowden's weird chat session:

Q: When did you decide to leak the documents?

A: "You see things that may be disturbing. When you see everything you realise that some of these things are abusive. The awareness of wrong-doing builds up. There was not one morning when I woke up (and decided this is it). It was a natural process.

"A lot of people in 2008 voted for Obama. I did not vote for him. I voted for a third party. But I believed in Obama's promises. I was going to disclose it (but waited because of his election). He continued with the policies of his predecessor."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-why

This from a guy who said....

Ed Snowden: Leakers “should be shot in the balls,” and "cut this Social Security bullshit"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023102239

[elehhhhna]

26. please know that I don't give a hoot about S's motives,

mistakes, past, future, or political beliefs.


Big picture, prononsense. BIG picture. Look for it.

[ProSense]

53. The name calling says otherwise. n/t

[RetroLounge]

222. pretty accurate name

RL

[Mnpaul]

165. The NSA defenders

sound just like Steve King on Fox News this morning. They must be promoting the wacko Republican brand.

logic fail

[L0oniX]

192. Yep we all can play the framing game. It's become childish.

I'm sure there is 1 republican somewhere in the present or in history that has said we should help the poor ...so if a Democrat says we should help the poor then the Democrat is a republican. That's how it works in the playground sand box. Pretty damn stupid.

[L0oniX]

188. Why are you still paying attention to the obsessive reframer behind the curtian?

I am a proud hater of the NSA and DHS so that makes me a libertarian ron paul voter?. By this warped way of thinking you could also say that the Democrats are supporting Bush 1 & 2 and the Republicans who support domestic spying. This framing / reframing is pure obsessive compulsive crap and unfortunately we can't get the patient to see a doctor so as to stop the nonsense.

[Le Taz Hot]

4. The grapes have been really sweet this year.

Especially the Red Flames. I highly recommend them before the season ends. And don't forget to support local farmers by shopping at Certified Farmers Markets if there are any in your area.

[East Coast Pirate]

162. Thanks..

This is a very helpful thread.

[PowerToThePeople]

6. this OP is meant to bolster the libertarian meme. n/t

FAIL

[Whisp]

7. Those dots are so connected they make up one big lump of libertarian shit. n/t

[darkangel218]

10. Umm, democrats give a shit about the Constitution too, you know.

The Constitution doesn't belong to a single group.

[Whisp]

19. This has nothing to do with the Constitution and every thing to do with

Fuck Ron Paul and his tactics of harming this administration. Like all the other scandals this is bullshit - unfortunately it's sticking longer than it should because by golly gee when we's talking about freedumbs then people go berserk because that's only an American think, this freedumb stuff, no one else in the world really understands it like Americans.

That's the fish line bait Paul cast out and whoa, the bites are astounding.

Snowden, Greenwald, Poitras, Assange, the Pauls - all these assholes are of the Fuck Ron Paul cloth. That should raise alarms and flags.

[darkangel218]

20. BS is has nothing to do with the Constitution!!

Why do you think people care about their privacy rights?? Because theyre Paulbots????

[Whisp]

61. The Pauls are using that weak spot for their own benefit

and privacy rights is the correct, soft button to push and they are pushing hard.

If it comes out of a rw Libertarian's yap, chances are really good you are being rused.

[kentuck]

8. That may end up being the consequence.

Even if it benefits the Libertarian brand, it was not created by the Libertarians. It was created by the status quo politicians of both Parties. When people perceived that neither Party chose to do anything about it, the libertarian brand was awakened. However, it was not a Libertarian creation.

[woo me with science]

13. Easy solution, of course.

Democrats could become the party against spying, against warmongering, *and* in favor of increasing, rather than cutting, safety nets.

[elehhhhna]

27. You win this thread.

[ProSense]

35. Or what:

"Democrats could become the party against spying, against warmongering, *and* in favor of increasing, rather than cutting, safety nets."

...Vote Rand Paul?

The Democratic Party doesn't support those issues, but Rand Paul does.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481343#post5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481343#post11

[L0oniX]

98. OFFS ...off the deep end.

[ProSense]

101. No, what was the point of the comment in the context of the OP? n/t

[L0oniX]

107. To convince people to not care about government spying on us because that helps ron paul.

[ProSense]

108. That was the point of the poster's comment? n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

37. Of course ...

this IS where the Democratic Party happens to be, on all of the issues you mention; but hey ...

[woo me with science]

57. ...

[L0oniX]

103. Ok I am using that pic

[kentuck]

105. Me too!

[neverforget]

111. You win the thread!

[disidoro01]

80. No

and rather than discuss or debate the failures of the party in addressing inequity and war mongering as well as a plan forward, you and the other party shills resort to anybody but paul. I'm no fan of paul but I abhor the support or denial you and Whisp and Nosense give to constant violations of our rights and to the rights of others around the world.
I can't even get a debate on drones from the Obama is never wrong folks on here. Forget talking about how he continues to line the pockets of wall street while turning a blind eye to their abuses as well.

Rights? lol, are you folks saying that the voter rights act is incredibly important yet defend a program where the government collects and stores data on all Americans? I guess as long as all Americans rights are violated, it is ok. What does happen to this data?

The "at least he isn't Paul" argument doesn't work. many people do not support Paul but support reigning in the NSA, support holding Wall street and big banks accountable. Support the rights of other people in other countries to not die at our hands. President Obama doesn't support any of this, why would I defend him?

Am I wrong in thinking we shouldn't be killing children in Yemen and Pakistan? Why am I wrong?

[obxhead]

106. Its not nice to share.

That must be some really good shit your smoking.

[Demo_Chris]

154. No! Dirty Libertarians support those. We need our own pet issue...

Like insurance mandates, drone warfare, and chained CPI!

[ljm2002]

172. Precisely. n/t

[hlthe2b]

16. If true, it is only because Democrats have ceded the ground on protecting civil liberties.

in a wretched attempt to pump up "cred" on security and national defense--which to most of us, is truly disgraceful.

[ProSense]

18. As I said

"If true, it is only because Democrats have ceded the ground on protecting civil liberties."

...here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481343#post5), the attempts to portray Rand Paul as somehow filling a gap left by Democrats is simply designed to hype Rand Paul. It has no basis in reality.

[hlthe2b]

54. As I said, virtually no DUer I know is in support of Rand Paul. But many of us are horrified at Dems

who justify these incursions on privacy and civil rights, which despite administration protestations to the contrary, are ripe with abuse.

[disidoro01]

89. Issues

don't matter to Prosense. it's all about supporting the MIC for her. Hundreds of posts where people say "I do not support Paul and I support civil liberties." She flies right past that into her rants.
She won't answer why the data is held for years nor what happens when someone les than pure gets their hands on that. Prosense would deny that McCarthy existed if old Joe was a democrat.

[Pholus]

17. Even if you buy the premise that the libertarians "won" on this issue somehow

Which I don't, you would be describing the effects of a self-inflicted wound.

It should have been obvious, but some group of idiots apparently didn't understand the consequences of continuing a disgusting despicable program that was the creation of the worst Republicans the country has ever seen.

Or they did, and tried desperately to discredit the messenger and hide the true extent of the problem behind "National Secrets," tactics that seems to have backfired badly as they look like complicit liars.

2005 Senator Obama (as represented by my signature line) is confused as to how all of this transpired.

And somewhere, the Chimp is smirking because President Obama is suffering the consequences of the Chimp's misdeeds.

[ProSense]

23. Despite the attempts, no one is rushing into Rand Paul's camp.

I mean, libertarians try this every election cycle. Rand and Ron Paul are kooks.

It's amazing that anyone with any sense is trying to push them as viable.

[Pholus]

29. Precisely, because despite the insinuations we are all Democrats here.

Again, the Chimp is smirking that smirk precisely because he appears to have managed to make the President who promised "Change" have to embrace and defend this turd -- the jewel in the authoritarian, neocon crown.

[ProSense]

31. What does that have to do with the OP? n/t

[Pholus]

38. I will presume you're not being deliberately obtuse.

Certainly if that was not your intent you need to clarify immediately that this is not intended to label DEMOCRATS opposed to the NSA spying as somehow being affiliated with Rand Paul.

While logically I agree that this would normally SHOULD not need saying, given at least a few posters below us are already deciding that they seeing LaRouchies under the bed you probably should make an explicit statement to calm them down.

[ProSense]

49. Oh please, that's

"Certainly if that was not your intent you need to clarify immediately that this is not intended to label DEMOCRATS opposed to the NSA spying as somehow being affiliated with Rand Paul. "

...simply obfuscation. You don't want to deal with the point of the OP so you're trying to twist it as an attempt to "label DEMOCRATS"

The OP has nothing to do with Democrats, but as I point out here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481343#post5) and here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481343#post11), the Pauls suck.

Again, it's amazing that anyone with any sense is trying to push them as viable.

[Pholus]

64. I'm just going by what other posters are saying.

But carry on. I was wondering why the dog was howling when your post came up but I guess I know now.

[1StrongBlackMan]

43. I guess ...

many here thought the paul folks wouldn't try to do to the Democratic Party, what they did/are doing to the gop.

We're special ... We're too smart for that! Oh, wait ...

[L0oniX]

124. ...and then there's the Dems going right along with the Bush/repuke NSA DHS cause.

[Pholus]

151. It is only the timing of our "republican support" that offends.

Dogma suggests we must enthusiastically support the Bushie Intelligence apparatus because the criticism of it essentially is as good as electing Republicans ... who will perpetuate the Bushie intelligence apparatus.

When it comes to being spying pervs you can't tell one from the other without a program I guess.

[ljm2002]

175. You say, "no one is rushing into Rand Paul's camp"...

...and yet you continue to accuse fellow DUers of doing just that.

Make up your mind.

Oh, and: please tell us again why you heart the PNAC and Dick Cheney and George W Bush so much? (*)

(*) I will stop doing this when PS stops pushing false equivalencies and using guilt-by-association to accuse other DUers of being Libertarians and supporting Rand Paul

[ProSense]

178. Really?

You say, "no one is rushing into Rand Paul's camp"......and yet you continue to accuse fellow DUers of doing just that.

Where did I accuse "DUers of doing just that"?

[darkangel218]

24. PO is "suffering the consequences" because he chooses to.

He could have overturned all this unecessary, money gobbling programs. But he chose to do nothing. And reaprove the snooping program again and again.


Gah...

[BumRushDaShow]

32. The "confusion"

is that too many on this site refuse to deal with the fact that this is Congress' problem to fix. Equating carrying out a law (as flawed and unconstitutional as it might be) with some nefarious motive, is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding of the tricameral government.

The people's problem is not pushing enough for election finance reform, the current state of affairs being what has kept Congress from fixing the 4th amendment violation problem, whether it be the NSA or "Stop and Frisk", which gets little or no attention by the "MY PRIVACY IS BEING VIOLATED!!!11!1!!" shills who aren't subject to this sort of abuse.

This has nothing to do with the Executive Branch despite how much people here love doing a cheap and easy bash of the day.

[Pholus]

45. Have you been missing out on the FISA deliberations?

Now granted, as the extent of this clusterfuck becomes apparent, everyone is circling the wagons.

Congress can claim ignorance of the programs with some credibility based on the required clearances and security practices. They are doing so right now.

The judiciary (namely ex-FISA judges) are claiming that judicial oversight is not solid. It's hard to say of course, after all the court is SECRET. But there you go, a second branch of government is claiming they can't fix this.

This is an executive branch problem. It is Obama's problem only insofar as he obviously did not understand the dangers of keeping so many Bushies and their pet projects in the executive branch.

[BumRushDaShow]

88. Did you miss Civics class again?

The "clusterfuck" has to do with how the law is written. Even if this Administration refused to carry out anything from some 60+ years worth of legislation establishing the current infrastructure, that doesn't suddenly "negate" the law. It is still on the books.

WTF is wrong with people accepting the fact that the LAW(S) must be repealed by Congress? And Congress claiming "ignorance" about what is going establishes exactly what I am saying about their punting away the definition of THEIR job.

And you using Congress' feigning ignorance as an excuse to then just ignore them and go back to the idiotic claim of "proof" that "THE PRESIDENT IS EVIL AND VIOLATING MY PRIVACY!!!11!!!!", is just breathtakingly absurd.

It's fucking irrelevant what Shrub assholes are still working in the Executive Branch. Right now, if Elizabeth Warren was President, it wouldn't matter whit regarding the existence of the law. The law doesn't suddenly disappear in thin air. And the Supreme Court (as the Judiciary) has a role to determine whether a law is constitutional or not but that STILL does not negate the fact that Congress is the one who writes the law. And in this case, the Supreme Court has in the past ruled on parts and has kept these laws in place and THEY can throw a law out, but again, the Executive Branch CANNOT.

THE LAWS MUST BE CHANGED OR REPEALED BY CONGRESS. The Executive Branch CANNOT repeal a law. And Executive Orders only establish guidance to agency for how to carry out that law but they cannot overturn the law and they are as fleeting as the next President who can summarily toss the previous President's EOs.

[truebluegreen]

131. My Senator (Udall), who has been waving his arms about this for years,

and thus has way more credibility than most,lays the responsibility on the way the law has been--secretly--interpreted and applied.

The judiciary had NO chance to determine the constitutionality of the secret law because it was secret and you can't have standing to sue if you can't show that you have been harmed...which you can't do if the whole thing is a secret.

So it is fucking irrelevant how it was written in the first place.

But thanks ever so for the civics lesson.

[Pholus]

142. Thank you!

Your response was well considered and free of the playground insults I would have used.

Strangely I got an A in civics. But I guess my teachers lied to me if posters like this are right. But somehow I trust my teacher more....

[truebluegreen]

148. No problem.

[L0oniX]

120. Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding! ^^^this^^^

"the consequences of continuing a disgusting despicable program that was the creation of the worst Republicans"

Jeeze ...there's a lot more that could be added to that ...but you really don't want to bum out the worshippers and their minister do ya?

[KharmaTrain]

25. I Smell LaRouchies...

...in 1986 LaRouchies were able to gain the Democratic party nomination for Governor in Illinois through taking advantage of infighting among Democrats that led to the corporate republican to an easy win. I thought they had vanished from the political scene but have seen hints that they're back in a new generation. Paulbots and LaRouchies have similar goals just work for different masters...

Cheers...

[ucrdem]

28. I think that's a reasonable suspicion.

Elections are the path to power and the GOP is not unmindful that its candidates can benefit from well-timed embarrassments and misfortunes:


Mitt Romney's walks away from the podium in Jacksonville, Florida, having just woven in criticism of Barack Obama to his reaction to the murders in Benghazi.

And there's plenty of evidence that Rancid plans to exploit l'affaire Snowden for all it's worth:

Rand Paul to Introduce Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013
Mike Riggs|Jun. 6, 2013 2:24 pm


In the wake of reports that the NSA has collected millions of phone records from Verizon customers, Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) announced today that he will introduce the Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013 tomorrow, Friday, June 7.

http://reason.com/blog/2013/06/06/rand-paul-to-introduce-fourth-amendment

Were Randy or Romney privy to these events before the public? Wouldn't surprise me. Were their handlers in on the planning? That wouldn't surprise me either.

[1StrongBlackMan]

50. Actually ...

I think ... the republicans embracing the paul folks will lead to another "tea-party" like problem for them ... just us it is having for Democrats on DU.

[ucrdem]

60. Could be. But they're still Republicans

and the GOP will push whoever they think will win. The brands are basically marketing ploys as far as I can tell, and the core big-business policies (low tax, no regulation) are identical.

[dairydog91]

33. Only Rand Paul fanatics could possibly oppose NSA spying techniques.

Seriously, that's your argument? That the only reason that someone could have to leak would be their desire to bolster the political career of a Tennessee Senator? Good lord, does it take elite training to make inferences this dumb? The Yale School of Derp? MIT's Dingbat Institute?

Maybe the leakers just found the level of NSA snooping to be grotesque, and thought that since the entire thing is cloaked in layers of official secrecy, the only way the public would find out would be through a leak. It is possible that someone has a moral/ethical objection to NSA spying, and just looks for political allies where they can find them. Not everyone is a raving TEAM BLUE or TEAM RED fanatic.

[hootinholler]

34. Ok! You convinced me!

I'm becoming a Libertarian! WOO HOO!

[darkangel218]

46. lmao!!!

I think she's implying we already are

[Fumesucker]

36. But we already knew all about these programs since 2006 or 1996 or 1776 or something?

When your big bombshell to "bolster support for the Libertarian party" is a yawn that everyone has known for years then what's the problem from the Democratic perspective anyway?

[randome]

40. The publication of the Verizon warrant.

We knew about this already. We didn't have proof but we knew. But when something is presented in the right manner, with the right keywords and attention to panic, it's easy enough for some to fall under the spell.

Witness the Conservative commercials aimed at convincing people that Obamacare is evil. Nothing based on fact, only fear-mongering.

Fear-mongering works. Especially when we are in a 'dead zone' of economic activity. People are worried, they are angry. The perfect time for demagoguery to hold sway.

We knew Dukakis was a liberal. Yet Reagan made the most of that word, didn't he? It's all in the presentation.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Fumesucker]

63. Eh, I'm just giving the talking points from a couple of months ago

The whole thing is a big yawning nothingburger.

All the pom pom crowd were saying it over and over and over again and now it's turned out to be at least partially true they have moved on to the next set of talking points.

I've supported Obama against most of DU when I thought he was right, I think the quickest way for Obama to make this go away is to be candid and forthright about it.

Secrecy and duplicity beget mistrust, how could it be otherwise?

[randome]

77. You're right, too much secrecy -and duplicity- breeds mistrust. Always.

But maybe Obama IS being upfront with us. So far, I don't see the 'You lie!' moment some are hoping to find.

The internal audit by the NSA hardly seems like a whitewash of anything. A few thousand computer-generated errors out of millions of queries? 'Miniscule' is the word for that.

I'm not sure how we can force Congress to take its oversight responsibilities seriously. But I agree something needs to be done. From one extreme to the other, whether one believes the NSA is 'evil' or benign, it's clear that at the very least trust needs to be re-established.

I'm not sure how that can happen, though. Any non-Congressional agency placed in charge of oversight will of course quickly be accused of accepting bribes, etc.

Maybe being more upfront about all the safeguards and restrictions the bureaucracy has set up. But even that may lay the groundwork for someone finding a weak point in the agency so I don't know.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Fumesucker]

93. That's a problem old enough there is a Latin phrase for it

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

I don't doubt you know the meaning.

Abuse of power is a constant in human nature, not everyone does it or even would do it but power tends to attract those who would be inclined to abuse it.

I still think the very best president would have to be forced into the job at gunpoint.

[stevenleser]

85. "the quickest way for Obama to make this go away is to be candid and forthright about it." No, see

that's the thing, that is the beauty of this trolling-writ-large by Ron/Rand Paul, Assange, Snowden and Greenwald.

When you make assertions about secret information and the intelligence community, there is no way to respond.

I know you have seen DUers write that they will never believe anything that comes from the government on this. That is the whole point of this particular attack. And there is only one group that would benefit from a wholesale de-legitimizing of the government and what it says.

There is no way to respond. Obama has tried several times. Each time, the folks who have bought into the Greenwald spin simply say whatever he says is not true.

[Fumesucker]

114. We have been lied to on a massive scale before regarding intelligence

It's not like it's something that's never happened before, Gulf of Tonkin for Democrats and Iraq for Republicans are two excellent examples of lies about intelligence that have had disastrous results.

Plausible deniability is Intel 101.

I don't believe in human perfection, the contractors at the NSA are just as human as the rest of us and have the inevitable human quirks and foibles.

I think Snowden showed that rather well.

[stevenleser]

119. That's nice. I even mostly agree. But it doesn't address your point to which I responded.

There is no response. That's the beauty of this troll-writ-large by Snowden and Greenwald. They knew what they were doing when they architected it.

The purpose is not to expose wrongdoing, the purpose is to sow distrust of the government and drive people into the hands of the Pauls. There is no possible response because it has had the desired effect.

Anything Obama says will be met with "I don't believe him" from the folks who have bought into Snowden and Greenwald's garbage. So your point "Obama just needs to come clean" doesn't work.

[Fumesucker]

143. Look, we all know for a fact Obama is lying about one major aspect of domestic policy

Either that or he truly believes being arrested, convicted and sentenced for his illegal drug use as a young man would have improved his prospects in life.

I have more respect for his intelligence if not his honesty than to believe for one moment he thinks that.

If he knowingly lies to me about one thing why would I believe anything Obama says without hard proof?

[Coyotl]

39. Personally, I thought the leak was a Benghazi-esque part of the Rand Paul campaign.

The whole point of the leak is inflict political damage to Obama and the Dems while fostering Paul's run for President. Republicans are posturing as Bush opposites on this issue, a replication of their pretend Tea Party rebranding strategy to overcome and circumvent Bush's negatives.

[MjolnirTime]

42. A Ratfuck from start to finish. And just look at how many fools swallowed it whole.

[cantbeserious]

52. One Presumes The Clapper Lies Were A Figment Of Imagination

eom

[uponit7771]

62. or that one doesn't know that Clapper was placed in a lying position but fuck facts, best to chase

...area 51 aliens

[cantbeserious]

66. One Presumes That One Knows Not Of Nuremberg

eom

[uponit7771]

75. ...or that more than enough know to NOT ask certain questions in public of secret agencies but again

...do we even want to talk about facts?

[cantbeserious]

90. So The Excuse Is That American Citizens Do Not Need To Know - Hello, Democracy

eom

[uponit7771]

59. +1

[Warren Stupidity]

127. Wyden is a randroid mole?

[Vinnie From Indy]

44. Where are the singing cats?

I heard this was a musical!

[darkangel218]

47. Theyre here.

&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Hurry up with the cat nip.

[randome]

55. That is not right.

There should be a law.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Vinnie From Indy]

56. Cheers!

Thanks for the smile on this Sunday morning!

[darkangel218]

65. Have an awesome day, Vinnie!!

[cantbeserious]

48. Keep Dreaming

eom

[Quantess]

58. Rich Lowry?! If you're going to source a RWer,

at least pick a smart RWer that isn't a complete corporate sellout. You know, someone we can take seriously.

Rich Lowry is an idiot in serveral ways, including his admission to masturbating to Sarah Palin. (starbursts, remember)

[ProSense]

68. So you're implying that RWers aren't allowed to hype RWers?

I mean, what are you objecting to? The article is stating that this is Paul's moment.

In case you didn't know, Rand Paul is also a "complete corporate sellout." He's a Republican.

[Quantess]

71. I can't take Rich Lowry seriously. That is what I am saying. (no text)

[LondonReign2]

73. The whistleblowing was an attempt to show the government is

violating our 4th Amendment rights.

A side effect was making Obama look bad, which is what really bothers you, particularly since he campaigned to clean this shit up and instead amped it up to 11.

[Iliyah]

74. Thanks ProSense

and I see that ME SOCIETY is "hard at work" trying to destroy the current US government in place of their new ones "I got mine so fuck off" plus "I don't give a shit about you cause its all about meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"

[Octafish]

78. No, the leak was an attempt to preserve democracy.

What Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho) said in 1976 would happen if NSA ever was turned on the American people:

“That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

"I don’t want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capability that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3510598

[Ichingcarpenter]

121. Martin Luther fights were also a plot to bolster

libertarianism.


He provided crucial moral leadership for eradicating government-enforced racial segregation in the United States.


I just proved he's a libertarian.

I do admire good doublespeak as pertaining to conflict theories in the defense of the indefensible, aka spying, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it,

[Octafish]

189. Labels and Propaganda. Misinformation and Disinformation - From the Toolkit of the Ruling Class.

And, of course, their Corporate McPravda owns the airwaves.



While I love the printed word, Corporate Tee Vee is still where most Americans get most of their information, including their ideas about these two statues so revered and respected by many Americans, including more than a few on DU. I wonder what they would think were they to learn from the tee vee what pater and fils have really done with their power?

The Propaganda System That Has Helped Create a Permanent Overclass Is Over a Century in the Making

Pulling back the curtain on how intent the wealthiest Americans have been on establishing a propaganda tool to subvert democracy.

Wednesday, 17 April 2013 00:00
By Andrew Gavin Marshall, AlterNet | News Analysis

Where there is the possibility of democracy, there is the inevitability of elite insecurity. All through its history, democracy has been under a sustained attack by elite interests, political, economic, and cultural. There is a simple reason for this: democracy – as in true democracy – places power with people. In such circumstances, the few who hold power become threatened. With technological changes in modern history, with literacy and education, mass communication, organization and activism, elites have had to react to the changing nature of society – locally and globally.

From the late 19th century on, the “threats” to elite interests from the possibility of true democracy mobilized institutions, ideologies, and individuals in support of power. What began was a massive social engineering project with one objective: control. Through educational institutions, the social sciences, philanthropic foundations, public relations and advertising agencies, corporations, banks, and states, powerful interests sought to reform and protect their power from the potential of popular democracy.

SNIP...

The development of psychology, psychoanalysis, and other disciplines increasingly portrayed the “public” and the population as irrational beings incapable of making their own decisions. The premise was simple: if the population was driven by dangerous, irrational emotions, they needed to be kept out of power and ruled over by those who were driven by reason and rationality, naturally, those who were already in power.

The Princeton Radio Project, which began in the 1930s with Rockefeller Foundation funding, brought together many psychologists, social scientists, and “experts” armed with an interest in social control, mass communication, and propaganda. The Princeton Radio Project had a profound influence upon the development of a modern "democratic propaganda" in the United States and elsewhere in the industrialized world. It helped in establishing and nurturing the ideas, institutions, and individuals who would come to shape America’s “democratic propaganda” throughout the Cold War, a program fostered between the private corporations which own the media, advertising, marketing, and public relations industries, and the state itself.

CONTINUED...

http://truth-out.org/news/item/15784-the-propaganda-system-that-has-helped-create-a-permanent-overclass-is-over-a-century-in-the-making

Thankfully, to help spread light when the protectors of the First Amendment won't, Maria Galardin's TUC (Time of Useful Consciousness) Radio. The podcast helps explain how we got here and what we need to do to move forward, starting with putting the "Public" into Airwaves again:

Alex Carey: Corporations and Propaganda
The Attack on Democracy

The 20th century, said Carey, is marked by three historic developments: the growth of democracy via the expansion of the franchise, the growth of corporations, and the growth of propaganda to protect corporations from democracy. Carey wrote that the people of the US have been subjected to an unparalleled, expensive, 3/4 century long propaganda effort designed to expand corporate rights by undermining democracy and destroying the unions. And, in his manuscript, unpublished during his life time, he described that history, going back to World War I and ending with the Reagan era. Carey covers the little known role of the US Chamber of Commerce in the McCarthy witch hunts of post WWII and shows how the continued campaign against "Big Government" plays an important role in bringing Reagan to power.

John Pilger called Carey "a second Orwell", Noam Chomsky dedicated his book, Manufacturing Consent, to him. And even though TUC Radio runs our documentary based on Carey's manuscript at least every two years and draws a huge response each time, Alex Carey is still unknown.

Given today's spotlight on corporations that may change. It is not only the Occupy movement that inspired me to present this program again at this time. By an amazing historic coincidence Bill Moyers and Charlie Cray of Greenpeace have just added the missing chapter to Carey's analysis. Carey's manuscript ends in 1988 when he committed suicide. Moyers and Cray begin with 1971 and bring the corporate propaganda project up to date.

This is a fairly complex production with many voices, historic sound clips, and source material. The program has been used by writers and students of history and propaganda. Alex Carey: Taking the Risk out of Democracy, Corporate Propaganda VS Freedom and Liberty with a foreword by Noam Chomsky was published by the University of Illinois Press in 1995.

SOURCE: http://tucradio.org/new.html

If you find a moment, here's the first part (scroll down at the link for the second part) on Carey.

http://tucradio.org/AlexCarey_ONE.mp3

It's important for there to be more than a handful of companies providing "news." Democracy depends on it.

[font color="red"]MORE PROPAGANDA 101: Be the FIRST to lie.[/font color] Afterward, even when told the truth, it's much harder to change a person's mind -- once it's been made, ideas turn to harden into beliefs.

One case in point forgotten by most of America, including those charged with Justice, military and otherwise, is that of Col. Westhusing. The guy saw corruption in Iraq and he wanted to put it to a stop.



I know you remember him, Ichingcarpenter. How many on DU? How many people in the regular world have even heard of him? His important story gets drowned out by propaganda.

[Savannahmann]

82. I see you're still searching for that 4th tactic.

It's a shame really. I would have thought that by now you would be shifting to original opinions. I guess not. Keep the laughing smiling going, because despite the propaganda, the Politicians are finding that people really care about the issue.

Examples? Fine here you go. http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/08/17/319230/americans-urge-oversight-of-us-spying/

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130816/14393924211/public-concern-over-nsa-spying-increasing-rapidly-as-congress-discovers-their-constituents-care-about-this-issue.shtml

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/nsa-spying-three-pillars-government-trust-have-fallen

So when the people refuse to vote for Democrats because we don't care about Civil Rights, and the Republicans go out and swear up and down that they do, and they get the votes we would otherwise have, what positing will you be in then? If you're a Democrat, you won't be. Many of us will be.

What will you be doing if we lose the Senate and fail to take the House?

[ProSense]

87. .

Another NSA "Bombshell" Starts to Fizzle Out, as Greenwald Pushes Government Conspiracy Theory
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023478767

[Savannahmann]

92. That is still the second tactic.

Tactic one. It's all a lie. Tactic two, it's not as bad as you think it is, and we have to do it. Tactic three, the Demons are on your (The anti NSA side) of the argument.

That's still second tactic, where is tactic four? Because the one thing none of your posts have is logic.

[NuclearDem]

96. Speaking of conspiracy theories:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3481343

[ProSense]

104. Speaking of deflection

the OP is a repost of information posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023065177

The attempts to label it CT is pure deflection.

[NuclearDem]

110. Still a mustread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3469948

[Bluenorthwest]

91. They have a brand? You mean those anti tax banner carriers and the 1% of primary voters Paul

attracts qualifies as a 'brand' in you view? A brand that has never won a single State and whose entire cast of critters is a father and son act elected in the most Red Republican areas the nation and laughed at by the rest of us?
I know you folks back East get into a bubble but you really should get out more. A brand? Frankly your materials about them are the only promotion of them I see, other than that regular band of crazies who rally on April 15th to pretend they have enough income to worry about taxation.
If they have a 'brand' then I'm the King of All Things. They have an image, not a good one, as Republicans on the fringe of their own Party. Their 'brand' is Republican, both Pauls are Republicans, they are not anything other than Republicans. These claims that Republicans are not really Republicans but 'Tea Party' or 'Libertarians' would make more sense of all the players were not elected as Republicans, not one of them is a member of any other Party. It serves you in some way to claim they are not Republicans, but I do not play that game. Soften it up all you wish, they are right wing Republicans just like the rest of them, bigoted, atavistic and anti social. Your 'brand' will not cure those symptoms, they are intrinsic to Republicans. It's hard for you because you 'have to' support the Republicans whom Obama appoints and such so you dig some Republicans and wish to pretend 'the bad ones' are of another Party, but they are part of the Hagel Party, the Clapper Party, the Comey Party, the Republican Party. I detest them all. You are more selective and dig some of them. I reject them all.

[ProSense]

94. Tell that to Assange, Greenwald and Snowden. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

117. If you feel the need, you should do so. I'm telling it to you, the DUer claiming this 'brand' exists

You are the one claiming they have a 'brand'. I think that is fantasy time, or perhaps you devout wish, I'm not sure. When asked questions you deflect them. It seems to me the goal is to protect the Republicans you like by claiming the worst of them are not really Republicans, when they are.
The brand is Republican Brand. Same brand as Chuckie and Clapper and Ron and Rand.

[ProSense]

123. "The brand is Republican Brand." So Assange and Greenwald support Republicans?

I don't disagree, the Pauls are Republican/RW libertarians.

[L0oniX]

95. There are treatments for obsessive compulsive disorders. n/t

[burnodo]

97. Rich Lowry

Shark jumped.

[Quantess]

207. Can you believe it?

A Rick Lowry article being sourced for any reason other than to highlight what a tool he is... is pathetic. It should be against DU rules. Who here takes that nitwit seriously?!

[BOG PERSON]

99. the leak was an attempt at undermining the obama brand

[Douglas Carpenter]

100. This post violates the Statement of Purpose for the General Forum - NO Conspiracy Theories -

- can be reposted in creative speculation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1135

These rules are here for reason and they are for everyone to follow.

[ProSense]

102. No, it doesn't. It's an opinion, but I can see why it's important to deflect from

Assange's recent statements and the point of the OP.

[Tikki]

109. So it appears....

Tikki

[BOG PERSON]

113. lolololol

[East Coast Pirate]

115. Now THIS thread is flamebate.

Will the posters who accused me of it do the same in this thread?

[L0oniX]

129. Well someone has to convince us all that the NSA and DHS loves us.

[ProSense]

132. Here:

Kick and rec if you support the proposed NSA reforms.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481937

[East Coast Pirate]

137. Wait, I'm convinced.

The blue links are messing with my head. I've been voodooed.

[L0oniX]

186. I didn't expect this when I signed on to Linkedin. n/t

[heaven05]

116. POS

Lip service to get as many voters as possible. IF he gets elected POTUS, we, all minorities would have four years or more of racist RW hate steering this country to hell. And if america lets this POS get in that office, america gets what it really wants.

[Iliyah]

118. Per Rand Paul the NSA

can remain intact as long as they "Libertarians" can "oversight" them - LOL

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

130. Not to mention the ACLU brand, the Anmesty International Brand, and a few others.

http://www.article19.org/resources.php/resource/37194/en/letter-to-obama-to-stop-the-prosecution-of-snowden

1. ARTICLE 19 (International)

2. ACCUN - Tunisian Digital Culture (Tunisia)

3. ActiveWatch (Romania)

4. Afghanistan Journalists Center (Afghanistan)

5. Africa Freedom of Information Centre (Uganda)

6. Ain-O-Shalish Kendra (Bangladesh)

7. Albanian Helsinki Committee (Albania)

8. Albanian Media Institute (Albania)

9. Aliansi Jurnalis Independen (Indonesia)

10. Alliance National Timor Leste for International Tribunal (ANTI) (Timor Leste)

11. Alternative Informatics Association (Turkey)

12. ANDI - Communication and Rights (Brazil)

13. Asian Forum for Human Rights and Development (FORUM-ASIA) (Asia)

14. Asociacion por los Derechos Civiles (Argentina)

15. Associação Brasileira de Centros de Inclusão Digital - ABCID (Brazil)

16. Association "Yakadha" for democracy and Civil State (Tunisia)

17. Association for Freedom of Thought and Expression (Egypt)

18. Association for Progressive Communications (International)

19. Association of Human Rights Monitors on Law Enforcement (Ukraine)

20. ATL MST/SIDA (Tunisia)

21. Bahrain Center for Human Rights (Bahrain)

22. Balkan Investigative Reporting Network (Kosovo)

23. Banglar Manabadhikar Suraksha Mancha (MASUM) (India)

24. Bolo Bhi (Pakistan)

25. Bulgarian Helsinki Committee (Bulgaria)

26. Burma Partnership (Burma)

27. Bytes for All (Pakistan)

28. Cambodian Center for Human Rights (CCHR) (Cambodia)

29. Canadian Journalists for Free Expression (Canada)

30. Cartoonists Rights Network International (International)

31. Catalan PEN (Spain)

32. Center for Development and Democratization of Institutions (Albania)

33. Center for Independent Journalism (Romania)

34. Center for National and International Studies (Azerbaijan)

35. Center for the Development of Democracy and Human Rights (Russia)

36. Centre for Independent Journalism (Malaysia)

37. Centre for Internet and Society (India)

38. Centre for Law and Democracy (Canada)

39. Centre for Participatory Research and Development (Bangladesh)

40. Centro de Archivos y Acceso a la Información Pública (Uruguay)

41. Centro de Cultura Luiz Freire (Brazil)

42. Centro de Estudos da Mídia Alternativa Barão de Itararé (Brazil)

43. Centro de Reportes Informativos sobre Guatemala (CERIGUA) (Guatemala)

44. Centro Internacional de Estudios Superiores de Comunicación para América Latina (CIESPAL) (Ecuador)

45. Centro Nacional de Comunicación Social (Mexico)

46. ChangeMaker (Bangladesh)

47. Christian Media Network (South Korea)

48. Civil Coalition for the Defence of Freedom of Expression (Tunisia)

49. COAST (Bangladesh)

50. Computer professionals for peace and social responsibility (FIfF) (Germany)

51. Derechos Digitales (Chile)

52. Digitalcourage e.V. (Germany)

53. Electronic Frontier Finland (Finland)

54. Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) (USA)

55. English PEN (UK)

56. Equity BD (Bangladesh)

57. Finnish PEN (Finland)

58. Föreningen för Digitala Fri- och Rättigheter (Sweden)

59. Foro de Periodismo Argentino (Argentina)

60. Foundation for Regional Initiatives (Ukraine)

61. Freedom of information and expression - Marroco (Morocco)

62. Freedom of the Press Foundation (USA)

63. Fundación para la Libertad de Prensa (Foundation for Press Freedom) (Colombia)

64. German PEN Centre (Germany)

65. Globe International Center (Mongolia)

66. Government Accountability Project (GAP) (USA)

67. GPOPAI - Grupo de Pesquisa em Políticas Públicas para o Acesso à Informação da Universidade de São Paulo (Brazil)

68. Grupo Medios y Sociedad (GMS) (Uruguay)

69. Helsinki Citizens' Assembly - Vanadzor (Armenia)

70. Helsinki committee of Armenia (Armenia)

71. Helsinki Foundation for Human Rights (Poland)

72. Hong Kong Journalists Association (Hong Kong)

73. Human Rights Center (Uganda)

74. Human Rights Center of Azerbaijan (Azerbaijan)

75. Human Rights Club (Azerbaijan)

76. Human Rights Monitoring Institute (Lithuania)

77. Human Rights Network for Journalists (Uganda)

78. Imparsial- The Indonesian Human Rights Monitor (Indonesia)

79. Independent Journalism Center (Moldova)

80. Index on Censorship (UK)

81. Indonesia Legal Aid Foundation (YLBHI) (Indonesia)

82. Initiative for Freedom of Expression (Turkey)

83. INSEC- Informal Sector Service Center (Nepal)

84. Institute for Contemporary Social and Political Studies (Slovenia)

85. Institute for the Studies on Free Flow of Information (Indonesia)

86. Institute of Mass Information (Ukraine)

87. Instituto Bem-Estar Brasil (Brazil)

88. International Youth Human Rights Movement (Russia)

89. Intervozes (Brazil)

90. IPHR - International Partnership for Human Rights (Belgium)

91. Iraqi Journalists Rights Defense Association (Iraq)

92. IT-Politisk Forening (Denmark)

93. Judicial System Monitoring Program (JSMP) (Timor Leste)

94. Kazakhstan International Bureau for Human Rights and Rule of Law (Kazakhstan)

95. KontraS (Commission for the Disappeared and Victims of Violence) (Indonesia)

96. KRF Public Alternative (Ukraine)

97. La Quadrature du Net (France)

98. Law and Society Trust (LST) (Sri Lanka)

99. Law, Internet and Society Nucleous - University of São Paulo (Brazil)

100. MADA Center (Palestine)

101. Mass Media Defence Centre (Russia)

102. Media Defence - Southeast Asia (MDSEA) (Asia)

103. Media Institute of Southern Africa (South Africa)

104. Media Rights Agenda (Nigeria)

105. Media, Entertainment & Arts Alliance (Australia)

106. Moscow Helsinki Group (Russia)

107. National Union of Somali Journalists (NUSOJ) (Somalia)

108. National Union of Tunisian Journalists SNJT (Tunisia)

109. New Zealand PEN Centre (New Zealand)

110. Norwegian PEN (Norway)

111. Notabene (Tajikistan)

112. Odhikar (Bangladesh)

113. Open Rights Group (UK)

114. Pakistan Press Foundation (Pakistan)

115. Panoptykon Foundation (Poland)

116. Panos Eastern Africa (East Africa)

117. Paradigm Initiative Nigeria (Nigeria)

118. PEN Canada (Canada)

119. PEN Center USA (USA)

120. PEN International (International)

121. PEN International's Swiss Romand Center (Switzerland)

122. PEN Melbourne (Australia)

123. PEN Palestine (Palestine)

124. PEN Turkey Centre (Turkey)

125. People in Need (Czech Republic)

126. People's Solidarity for Participatory Democracy (Center for Whistleblowers Support) (South Korea)

127. People's Vigilance Committee on Human Rights (PVCHR) (India)

128. Plataforma Interamericana de Derechos Humanos, Democracia y Desarrollo (PIDHDD) (Ecuador)

129. Portuguese PEN Centre (Portugal)

130. Press Union and Audiovisual of Djibouti (SPAD) (Djibouti)

131. Privacy International (International)

132. Pro Media (Macedonia)

133. Public Association "Journalists" (Kyrgyzstan)

134. Reporters Without Borders (France)

135. Russian PEN (Russia)

136. Samoa Observer (Samoa)

137. Samuelson-Glushko Canadian Internet Policy & Public Interest Clinic (CIPPIC) (Canada)

138. San Miguel PEN center (Mexico)

139. Scottish PEN (UK)

140. SonTusDatos (Mexico)

141. South African PEN Centre (South Africa)

142. South East European Network for Professionalization of Media (Europe)

143. SUARAM (Suara Rakyat Malaysia) (Malaysia)

144. Swiss German PEN Center (Switzerland)

145. Taiwan Association for Human Rights (TAHR) (Taiwan)

146. Tanzania Human Rights Defenders’ Coalition (Tanzania)

147. The Institute for Reporters' Freedom and Safety (Azerbaijan)

148. Think Centre (Singapore)

149. Tunis Centre for Freedom of the Press (Tunisia)

150. Tunisian engineers council (Tunisia)

151. Tunisian Association of Women Lawyer (Tunisia)

152. Tunisian Union of Free Radios STRL (Tunisia)

153. Uganda Journalists Union (Uganda)

154. Union of Independent Newspapers (Tunisia)

155. Vrijschrift (Netherlands)

156. West African Journalists Association (West Africa)

157. World Association of Community Radio Broadcasters (AMARC) (International)

158. Associação Nacional para o Software Livre (Portugal)

[NuclearDem]

134. But the Democratic Party isn't on that list

Therefore, it doesn't matter.

[Demo_Chris]

156. Good catch. nt

[Demo_Chris]

155. Those are all Ron Paul front groups! Under the bus with them! nt

[gulliver]

135. It's political espionage.

A self-appointed agent of the wacky libertarians basically infiltrated the U.S. government. You're right. It is kind of amazing how the players are log rolling for each other. They should do an awards show and give each other trophies.

[Fire Walk With Me]

136. The Pauls are like clockwork: They'll instantly leap upon the outrage of the day

in order to attempt to gain followers in the process. (Ayn) Rand usually contradicts himself publicly shortly thereafter.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

But...NO, there is advantage-taking occuring, Johnny-come-lately profiteering. Ignoring that, this is still only and always about the fact that the United States has become a surveillance state uncaring of the laws and principles upon which it was founded. Ignore the circus surrounding the facts. This is about lawless government and a path to hell for the country if allowed to prosper.

[MNBrewer]

138. The desperation is smelling thick this morning.

[ProSense]

140. Yeah, calling out pro-Paul Assange and Greenwald is wrong.

Leave the Pauls and their supporters alone.

[burnodo]

159. especially when you just make it up

and use right-wing pudnockers like Rich Lowry to bolster your argument

[Fuddnik]

144. The downplaying is an attempt to cover Democratic ass.

There is no oversight of the Intelligence Community. Period. That's the reality.

Let me stress one thing first. I do not like Rand Paul or Ron Paul. They're both assholes. I'd never vote for either one of them ever. As for their Libertarian ideology, it's more bankrupt than the old Soviet Communist ideology.

Now that those strawmen are disposed of, lets talk turkey.

The Military-Industrial-Internal Security apparatus is running rampant in this country, and nobody has the political will to try to stop it. Not Obama. Not the Republicans, and especially not the Democrats, save Wyden and Udall. And they're bound by secrecy laws with severe sanctions if they reveal anything other than "it's just the tip of the iceberg", or "it's worse than you think".

Snowden, like Daniel Ellsberg, saw what is happening, and made a decision to put the information in the public sphere and force a debate on it. I welcome that debate.

We are wasting hundreds of billions of dollars on unneeded and unnecessary surveillance that turns all Americans into suspects. These programs aren't in place to protect you. They're there to suppress dissent from the corporate rule of law. You probably have a ten times greater chance of getting struck by lightning or winning the Powerball drawing, than being involved in a terrorist attack. And if we didn't have over 700 military bases all over the world, backing up an empire, the odds would go down considerably.

People who keep downplaying, and trying to cover up this shit, look more foolish by the day.

[AppetiteForApathy]

145. Probably.

But opposing any major reforms to our intelligence gathering is now bad politics.

Whether they need the reforms or not is irrelevant.

Do it for the optics.

[BOG PERSON]

146. "the leak" was an attack on the obama brand

[limpyhobbler]

147. This is conspiracy theory

[midnight]

150. This was not a leak....

[Demo_Chris]

152. As was the Iraq war which Libertarians oppose as well!! Damn Libertarians!!! nt

[ProSense]

158. Another fallacy

The Pauls are not anti-war.

Good time to repost this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/100210182

Have I mentioned Ron Paul isn't anti-war?

Ron Paul is a racist, anti-government demagogue. Everything he does benefits the GOP and the rich.

One person voted against the original Afghanistan AUMF

Barbara Lee

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll342.xml

Ron Paul voted yes.


In 2007, the House voted 218 to 212 to Set Date for Iraq Pullout

House, 218 to 212, Votes to Set Date for Iraq Pullout

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/24/washington/24cong.html

Ron Paul voted no.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll186.xml


In 2007, Ron Paul introduced the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2007

Marque and Reprisal Act of 2007 - Authorizes and requests the President to issue letters of marque and reprisal to commission privately armed and equipped persons and entities to seize outside of the United States the person and property of Osama bin Laden, of any al Qaeda co-conspirator, and any conspirator with Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda who are responsible for the air piratical aggressions against the United States on September 11, 2001, and for any planned similar acts or acts of war against the United States in the future.

States that no letter of marque and reprisal shall be issued without the posting of a security bond in such amount as the President determines sufficient to ensure the letter's execution.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr3216ih/pdf/BILLS-110hr3216ih.pdf

Of course when he introduced it in 2001, it was "for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator"

September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001

<...>

(b) The President of the United States is authorized to place a money bounty, drawn in his discretion from the $40,000,000,000 appropriated on September 14, 2001, in the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Recovery from and Response to Terrorists Attacks on the United States or from private sources, for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator responsible for the act of air piracy upon the United States on September 11, 2001, under the authority of any letter of marque or reprisal issued under this Act.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-107hr3076ih/pdf/BILLS-107hr3076ih.pdf

Rand Paul: Any attack on Israel will be treated as an attack on the United States
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023475014

· War funding from 2001 to 2010 has cost the taxpayer $1.109 trillion. That amount doesn’t include the $159
billion that will likely be spent funding the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq for FY2011. The proposal seeks to
Page 8 of 37
reduce war funding for FY2011 by $16 billion, in other words to provide $144 billion (President Obama has
requested $117 billion for FY2012, $27 billion dollars below our proposed level).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x602906

[Demo_Chris]

166. Hillarious, you don't even know what you are arguing....

You're just throwing out random crap in a kind of disfunctional Gish Gallop. Rand Paul is no more Libertarian than Paul Ryan was Objectivist. Both are REPUBLICAN. In the case of the former, he is a Republican who has embraced a handful of Libertarian positions, primarily on civil liberties -- about as many as most Pre-Obama Democrats supported.

Rather than come here posting wacky games of conspiracy/denial twister, how about you instead post what you support. As in...

I LIKE PEANUT BUTTER or I LIKE TURTLES

[ProSense]

169. Really?

"Hillarious, you don't even know what you are arguing....

You're just throwing out random crap in a kind of disfunctional Gish Gallop. Rand Paul is no more Libertarian than Paul Ryan was Objectivist. Both are REPUBLICAN. In the case of the former, he is a Republican who has embraced a handful of Libertarian positions, primarily on civil liberties -- about as many as most Pre-Obama Democrats supported.

Rather than come here posting wacky games of conspiracy/denial twister, how about you instead post what you support. As in..."

Greenwald:

There’s a major political fraud underway: the GOP is once again donning their libertarian, limited-government masks in order to re-invent itself and, more important, to co-opt the energy and passion of the Ron-Paul-faction that spawned and sustains the ”tea party” movement. The Party that spat contempt at Paul during the Bush years and was diametrically opposed to most of his platform now pretends to share his views. Standard-issue Republicans and Ron Paul libertarians are as incompatible as two factions can be — recall that the most celebrated right-wing moment of the 2008 presidential campaign was when Rudy Giuliani all but accused Paul of being an America-hating Terrorist-lover for daring to suggest that America’s conduct might contribute to Islamic radicalism — yet the Republicans, aided by the media, are pretending that this is one unified, harmonious, “small government” political movement.

http://www.salon.com/2010/02/21/libertarianism/

[Demo_Chris]

201. And? Again, what are you arguing?

Try, really try, to be fucking SPECIFIC. Don't babble about the GOP and their internal games, don't tell me what some pundit says about something, don't link to random articles that have nothing to do with the arguments on the table, tell us what you believe.

[ProSense]

206. "Try, really try, to be fucking SPECIFIC. "

I arguing that your last comment was nonsense.

Is that "fucking SPECIFIC" enough for you?

[NuclearDem]

196. The Pauls don't represent all Libertarians.

Thought you might want to know that, since you seem to understand fuck-all about the subject.

[ProSense]

197. Assange and Greenwald like them. n/t

[NuclearDem]

200. Big fucking whoop.

The LP's platform is specifically anti-aggression and foreign entanglements. The Pauls may be the closest thing to electable libertarians, but they aren't. Plenty of LP members that are anti-war, but who end up holding their noses and voting for those two anyway.

[ProSense]

205. Actually,

"Plenty of LP members that are anti-war, but who end up holding their noses and voting for those two anyway."

..."plenty" of them believe the Pauls are anti war, which makes them clueless.

[Mnpaul]

160. There needs to be push back from the libertarians

The authoritarians dominate our government and are turning this country into a fascist police state.

There are libertarians on both sides of the aisle and they need to push back to save our democracy.

[AZ Progressive]

161. I know who the OP's REAL heroes are

Since she has a thing for Propaganda








This is just the latest attempt of propaganda by the OP. The idea that someone would sacrifice their life in the U.S. just to bolster the libertarian brand is getting into Tea Party lunacy. Glenn Greenwald's background is as a constitutional and civil rights litigator, and is not a known libertarian or Ron Paul operative.

[ProSense]

163. No, I

support the President and Democrats

Obama's second term: A productive six months.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023482199

Who do you support?

[AZ Progressive]

190. I support an America that sticks to its principles, cares about its people...

...and does as little harm as possible. I don't support any one leader blindly given the reputation of politicians, the tendency for many to believe ideology as dogma, and given that everyone is human and susceptible to temptation, the lust for power, and all other flaws of human beings. We have to hold our leaders accountable because even holding them accountable keeps them to do good because then they keep a fear of doing bad things, which is a good thing.

[leftstreet]

164. I thought Paul was a Republican

[Maedhros]

167. Who cares who leaked the information and for what theoretical ulterior motive?

What was revealed is bad and needs to be fixed.

The only reason for trying to sell the idea that it's not bad is because you don't want it fixed.

And if you don't want it fixed, then you are severely misguided.

[ProSense]

168. I do, and misinformation is not cool. n/t

[PowerToThePeople]

173. misinformation is not cool.

Then stop posting OPs like this.

[neverforget]

176. That's not what Senators Wyden or Udall says:

http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-udall-statement-on-reports-of-compliance-violations-made-under-nsa-collection-programs

Wyden, Udall Statement on Reports of Compliance Violations Made Under NSA Collection Programs

Friday, August 16, 2013

Washington, D.C. – U.S. Senators Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) and Mark Udall (D-Colo.) issued the following statement regarding reports that the NSA has violated rules intended to protect Americans' privacy thousands of times each year. Wyden and Udall are both members of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

“The executive branch has now confirmed that the 'rules, regulations and court-imposed standards for protecting the privacy of Americans' have been violated thousands of times each year. We have previously said that the violations of these laws and rules were more serious than had been acknowledged, and we believe Americans should know that this confirmation is just the tip of a larger iceberg.

While Senate rules prohibit us from confirming or denying some of the details in today's press reports, the American people have a right to know more details about of these violations. We hope that the executive branch will take steps to publicly provide more information as part of the honest, public debate of surveillance authorities that the Administration has said it is interested in having.

In particular, we believe the public deserves to know more about the violations of the secret court orders that have authorized the bulk collection of Americans' phone and email records under the USA PATRIOT Act. The public should also be told more about why the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has said that the executive branch's implementation of section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act has circumvented the spirit of the law, particularly since the executive branch has declined to address this concern.

We appreciate the candor of the Chief Judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court regarding the Court's inability to independently verify statements made by the executive branch. We believe that the Court is not currently structured in a way that makes it an effective check on the power of the executive branch. This highlights the need for a robust and well-staffed public advocate who could participate in significant cases before the Court and evaluate and counter government assertions. Without such an advocate on the court, and without greater transparency regarding the Court's rulings, the checks and balances on executive branch authority enshrined in the Constitution cannot be adequately upheld.”

[ProSense]

184. From Wyden's statement

While Senate rules prohibit us from confirming or denying some of the details in today's press reports, the American people have a right to know more details about of these violations. We hope that the executive branch will take steps to publicly provide more information as part of the honest, public debate of surveillance authorities that the Administration has said it is interested in having.

http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-udall-statement-on-reports-of-compliance-violations-made-under-nsa-collection-programs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023473972

Wyden is pushing reform, and the context of his statement doesn't have anything to do with the OP.

His statement can't be used to dismiss the facts in the NYT report and other analyses of the WaPo article.

Another NSA "Bombshell" Starts to Fizzle Out, as Greenwald Pushes Government Conspiracy Theory
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023478767

In fact, those pushing the hyped nonsense don't seem interested in the reforms Wyden and others are proposing.

Also from his statement:

We appreciate the candor of the Chief Judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court regarding the Court's inability to independently verify statements made by the executive branch. We believe that the Court is not currently structured in a way that makes it an effective check on the power of the executive branch. This highlights the need for a robust and well-staffed public advocate who could participate in significant cases before the Court and evaluate and counter government assertions. Without such an advocate on the court, and without greater transparency regarding the Court's rulings, the checks and balances on executive branch authority enshrined in the Constitution cannot be adequately upheld.”

http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-udall-statement-on-reports-of-compliance-violations-made-under-nsa-collection-programs

Kick and rec if you support the proposed NSA reforms.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023481937

[neverforget]

185. I found this part especially telling:

"We appreciate the candor of the Chief Judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court regarding the Court's inability to independently verify statements made by the executive branch."

In other words, we don't know if they are telling the truth. Senator Wyden has been telling us that this NSA spying goes way deeper than what we've been told. I tend to believe my Senator (Wyden) versus Clapper and Gen Alexander. They need to lie to protect the power the NSA has accumulated over the years.

[ProSense]

193. Congress can fix that, which is addressed by the reform proposed. n/t

[neverforget]

194. And President Obama needs to support the reforms.

and fire the liar Clapper.

[ljm2002]

170. Post hoc ergo propter hoc...

...a well known logical fallacy.

Of course those who can make political hay from this will do so. You're giving them way too much credit if you think they engineered this.

Oh, yeah: since you are in support of the NSA's spying, you must also subscribe to the PNAC's policies, and would vote to re-elect Dick Cheney and George Bush if you could. (*)

(*) I'll stop saying stuff like this when PS stops making false guilt-by-association equivalencies in the other direction

[Ichingcarpenter]

180. "I can't help but think that you are the cause of this problem

"I can't help but think that you are the cause of this problem; we never had any problem with the furnace until you moved into the apartment." The manager of the apartment house, on no stated grounds other than the temporal priority of the new tenant's occupancy, has that the tenant's presence has some causal relationship to the furnace's becoming faulty.

[PowerToThePeople]

181. I admire you

I am almost all out of jury % points because of my threads being hidden by this bunch. Maybe 1 thread was deserving of being hidden, the rest were hidden out of shear partisanship. They are doing the exact same thing as the Republicans in the House of Reps are doing. Same exact tactics.

I guess when I run out of Jury points, I can just let lose, as I will not have anything else to lose. It will be pretty funny if/when they have PowerToThePeople tomb-stoned for not supporting the 3rd way. It will be quite telling of what the party is imo.

[ProSense]

203. You have

"I'll stop saying stuff like this when PS stops making false guilt-by-association equivalencies in the other direction"

...no intention of doing so because that comment is a straw man. The OP makes no "guilt-by-association equivalencies" as you are attempting to do.

It is a direct call out of Assange, Greenwald and the Pauls.

[ljm2002]

204. I am quite happy...

...to allow those reading these posts to make their own judgment on your tactics w.r.t. "call outs" of the Pauls.

It reminds me of Bush claiming "I never said Saddam Hussein had any connection with 9/11". It was true in a literal sense, but it was very clear how carefully and how often he had juxtaposed the two things in order to plant the idea.

[ProSense]

208. And I'm quite happy calling out Rand Paul

Fuck him!

[msongs]

171. as sure as the sun appears to rise in the east, avoid the message by attacking the messenger nt

[mick063]

174. Beating a dead horse into a bloody pulp.

If there was a better counter argument, it would have come long before the odor of rotting horse flesh became apparent.

[Rex]

177. You mean they were politiking?

[David Krout]

182. Damn. There sure are a lot of libertarian Democrats in Congress!

Did you see how many Democrats supported the Amash amendment which was triggered by Snowden's leak?

Hint: More Dems. than Republicans.

And how about Ezra Klein, a supporter of Obamacare (which many libertarians hate) and big-government liberal (like many of us) calling Snowden a patriot?

This thread has a very weak foundation.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

187. It would take a true idiot to buy the pile of shit you're trying to sell.

Is this really your considered opinion, that Snowden leaked in order to bolster the libertarian brand? I find myself hoping that you're just telling a callous lie in order to propagandize. If you truly believe this, then I feel guilty for giving someone as mentally deficient as you a hard time.

[dkf]

191. Now how did I know this was you?

I have to admit for a team of 1 you do a good job.

[ProSense]

195. Is it because of the name attached to the OP? n/t

[dkf]

198. I just read the title of the piece and I already know.

Don't need to get farther.

[ProSense]

202. LOL! n/t

[moondust]

199. I sense that it may be so.

Just judging from the huge number of NSA threads on Reddit, which I had long ago recognized as a favorite hangout for Paulites and Libertarians.

And:

Snowden downloaded NSA secrets while working for Dell

WASHINGTON, Aug 15 (Reuters) - Former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden began downloading documents describing the U.S. government's electronic spying programs while he was working for Dell Inc in April 2012, almost a year earlier than previously reported, according to U.S. officials and other sources familiar with the matter.

Which I think suggests a mole engaged in a longer-term plot, very likely political (libertarian/anarchist), and perhaps financial in nature if some book and movie deals should materialize.

[Cha]

209. I knew that from the beginning when Whiny libertarian, ed snowden, was

spewing his shit.

Fuck libertarians.. assange, rand paul, greenwald, and hacker/leaker/dumper/hidey/boy.

[bobduca]

210. Keep failing to catapult the ProPaganda!

[ProSense]

211. The Pauls and the Leakers Are All Fond of Each Other

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/08/pauls-and-leakers-are-all-fond-each-other/68436/

[bobduca]

212. Association fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

[ProSense]

213. Is that a "blue link"?

Reality:

Assange Says Rand Paul Is The Only Hope For America
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023474700

[bobduca]

214. I think Assange is wrong

You are the only hope for america!

[ProSense]

223. You're right about Assange. n/t

[Number23]

215. I agree that may have been one of the reasons.

K&R

[idwiyo]

218. Cool CT! Do tell more, don't just stop half way, please!

[TransitJohn]

219. What insipid drivel.

You've got recs from the already converted. Nice work.

[freshwest]

220. Another win for the Koch brothers. Get ready.