If the NSA Humpers are correct about Miranda, the NSA is even more incompetent than I thought

[Vinnie From Indy]

Fresh out of the oven today is the latest Apology Pie baked up over the last 16 hours. This steaming, hastily assembled bit of nonsense offers that Greenwald's partner, Mr. Miranda, was acting as courier of documents that originated with Snowden. The Humpers are claiming that because the documents originated from Snowden's downloads of NSA computers, that it was absolutely essential and vital to national security that Miranda be detained and all of his electronic equipment be seized. Apparently these documents are so sensitive and vital to national security that the Brits used a law designed to capture terrorists as their justification for the whole thing.

If all this is true and Miranda HAD to be detained to recover these files as the humpers claim, would that not mean that at this late date the NSA STILL does not know the extent of Snowden's haul? Are we really supposed to believe now that the NSA is STILL unable to figure out exactly what Snowden downloaded from the Booz-Allen servers?
Why would the security services in the US and UK need to detain Miranda if they already had a complete inventory of what was taken by Snowden months ago? If they are still in the dark about Snowden's downloads, how in the world is anyone supposed to have faith that these agencies are able to police and monitor the awesome powers they have access to?

Of course, if the NSA knows exactly what Snowden took, this detainment of Miranda was pure, unadulterated intimidation.

[leftstreet]

1. DURec for 'NSA humpers' alone

and +1 for the OP

[hobbit709]

3. Another +1 here.

[quinnox]

4. ditto, +1

[GoneFishin]

6. +1000

[closeupready]

13. +1001.

[forestpath]

27. +1002

[GoneFishin]

2. Maybe. Or they are paranoid he may have something worse, but are unsure, and desperate to find out.

[Autumn]

5. Interesting questions.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

7. NSA Humpers? How about Greenwald Fluffers?

Your post is disgusting.

[jberryhill]

28. I think the Greenwald Fluffers were replaced by the Assange Felchers

[CakeGrrl]

54. The kids are coming up with new games in the sandbox.

When you're down to thinking up new names to call other members of the community and the name calling gets enthusiastic recs, well...

[grasswire]

8. technicality

We do not know what Miranda was carrying. The following sentence is not attributed by the reporter, although he attributed other sentences in the same paragraph.

All of the documents came from the trove of materials provided to the two journalists by Mr. Snowden.[/i

[bemildred]

14. Yes. Quite unlikely, I would think, he would say that.

I mean, it's encrypted, why would he tell them what it is?

And I tend to doubt that that is what was being carried, anyway.

[msongs]

9. watch out or you will be accused of being an agent of the Chinese government nt

[ZombieHorde]

10. Must we insult each other? nt

[KittyWampus]

11. NSA HUMPERS? LOL. You must be in the anger stage of grief.

[closeupready]

12. LOL - "NSA Humpers" - thanks for the laugh -

hadn't heard that one before - can I use it?

[arcane1]

15. Is it possible they knew exactly what Miranda had, and they detained him in order to get it back?

[Vinnie From Indy]

17. That would make sense if they assumed that Miranda, Snowden et al

only had a single electronic copy. That does not seem a very plausible idea.

If they already know everything that Snowden took, then this detainment was pure intimidation.

Cheers!

[winter is coming]

20. If they knew what Miranda had, and that he had it, why wait 'til the airport to get it back? n/t

[notadmblnd]

26. Is it possible that if he had what they wanted, that they would have charged him

and that he would still be detained?

[GliderGuider]

56. No.

In the digital age there is no "it" to get back when you're talking about files. They know that as well as any high school computer user.

It was intimidation - pure, simple, straight-forward, jack-booted and black-hearted. A power game.

[JoePhilly]

16. The Liberthoritarians are making a list of NSA Humpers as we type.

[Electric Monk]

19. Did your brain hurt as you typed "Liberthoritarians"? That's chock full of cognitive dissonance. nt

[Hydra]

23. Saw Commie Libertarian earlier

Ministry of Truthiness have their cliff notes and just write them out. No thinking required.

[pnwmom]

25. The concept of Republican Libertarians is chuck full of cognitive dissonance

and yet they exist -- and Assange says they are the U.S.'s "only hope."

[JoePhilly]

55. I figure as long as were playing the name game ...

That particular description occurred to me after one of the more self righteous liberals declared that DU should purge itself of those who are not nearly as upset about the NSA as a good liberal should be.

They said they had a list of all of the "3rd way" bad democrats on DU who should be purged.

The irony was apparently lost on them.

That's become a common theme in NSA threads on DU lately ... the need for a purge of the unholy.

[Harmony Blue]

18. That pretty much puts a huge hole

in the pro NSA arguments.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. At CYA and damage control they're rather pathetic and hamhanded.

[JDPriestly]

22. Here is a possibility: they did not detain him for NSA files but hoping they would find files

that would embarrass Greenwald.

Maybe very personal files; personal photos; personal writings?

That's a possibility. To me, that is more likely than anything else.

I will leave the rest up to your imaginations.

[Catherina]

24. Excellent comment and prob right. I still don't think they have any idea what Snowden has

I don't think the US and UK governments have any idea what he has but the possibilities are scaring them shitless.

Clapper admitted they didn't have any idea how Snowden pulled it off. Remember when they were telling everyone that he only "has as many as 200 documents", then admitted he had "perhaps more than 200 sensitive documents" and then hastily shut up when Greenwald said he had 15,000-20,000 documents?

I think the government is very worried about what shoes are going to drop next and was hoping for information that would help them pre-emtively weasel their way out.

There was no need for Miranda to be relaying Snowden documents. Both Greenwald and Poitras already have their own copies and Poitras is an expert at transmitting encrypted files securely.

The intimidation is a secondary factor with a message not just Greenwald and Poitras but for the increasing number of journalists who aren't towing the official line anymore. And potential whistleblowers too.

[JoeyT]

50. That was what I was figuring too.

Hoping for personal information to feed the gossip mongers.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

29. You convert nobody by disrespecting them so severely with terms like "humpers". nt

[Kolesar]

30. He gets stimulation from the responses

That's why he will be back with more.

[snappyturtle]

32. I hope so! Well presented points of view and humor is a

winning combination in my book.

[Kolesar]

35. I spend most of my time working or reading about money

Lately I have been helping a relative in the nursing home
Fascinating life you live

[snappyturtle]

41. You definitely need a good laugh...it's the best medicine.

I DO live a fascinating life! I have a lot to be thankful for and
more coming my way.

[morningfog]

57. Convert? Defenders of this shit are beyond help.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

59. And those who are keeping open minds are not persuaded by such language. nt

[snappyturtle]

31. I'm in my small studio, alone, and this is the funniest

descriptive term I've read in a long time. +1003 for originally and
thanks for the laugh. I actually laughed out loud although it was
only witnessed by my cat....well, sort of, she's snoozing. I'm still
laughing!

And, yes, it was intimidation. It's going to backfire which will make
it necessary for the NSA humpers to unite en masse. Still chuckling!

Edit: Just read more of the comments and I do apologize if what
struck my funny bone is insulting. It just got to me! Rest assured
I've been labeled too.

[struggle4progress]

33. "... Mr. Miranda was in Berlin to deliver documents related to Mr. Greenwald’s investigation

into government surveillance to Ms. Poitras, Mr. Greenwald said. Ms. Poitras, in turn, gave Mr. Miranda different documents to pass to Mr. Greenwald ..."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/19/world/europe/britain-detains-partner-of-reporter-tied-to-leaks.html?_r=0

[morningfog]

58. Is that terrorism?

[struggle4progress]

61. I'll have to defer to experts on UK law regarding the actual scope of Schedule 7

[morningfog]

62. You have no opinion on the use of anti terrorism laws

against non-terrorist based criminal allegations?

[struggle4progress]

68. (1) "Snowden has enough information to cause harm to the U.S. government in a single minute than any

"Snowden has enough information to cause harm to the U.S. government in a single minute than any other person has ever had," Greenwald said in an interview in Rio de Janeiro with the Argentinian daily La Nacion. "The U.S. government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare."
Snowden documents could be 'worst nightmare' for U.S. - journalist
BUENOS AIRES
Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:29pm IST
http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/07/13/usa-security-snowden-greenwald-idINDEE96C05520130713

[struggle4progress]

69. (2) ... Mr. Miranda was in Berlin to deliver documents related to Mr. Greenwald’s investigation

into government surveillance to Ms. Poitras, Mr. Greenwald said. Ms. Poitras, in turn, gave Mr. Miranda different documents to pass to Mr. Greenwald ...
Britain Detains the Partner of a Reporter Tied to Leaks
By CHARLIE SAVAGE and MICHAEL SCHWIRTZ
Published: August 18, 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/19/world/europe/britain-detains-partner-of-reporter-tied-to-leaks.html?_r=1&

[struggle4progress]

70. (3) ... Greenwald ... said ... “I have many documents about England’s espionage system ..." ...

Snowden journalist: Won’t be silenced by partner’s detention at London’s Heathrow Airport
By Associated Press
Published: August 18
Updated: Monday, August 19, 6:21 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/partner-of-journalist-at-center-of-nsa-leak-detained-for-about-9-hours-at-heathrow-airport/2013/08/18/b1d81ea4-086b-11e3-89fe-abb4a5067014_story.html

[struggle4progress]

71. (4) I do not feel competent to discuss interpretation or scope of Schedule 7

[struggle4progress]

72. (5) ... UK police can stop, examine and search passengers at ports, airports and international rail

UK police can stop, examine and search passengers at ports, airports and international rail terminals. Unlike with some other police powers to stop and search, there is no requirement for an officer to have a "reasonable suspicion" that someone is involved with terrorism before they are stopped ...
David Miranda row: What is schedule 7?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23757133

[struggle4progress]

73. (6) Terrorism Act 2000 definitions of "terrorism" seem to include "the use or threat of action ...

designed to influence the government ... for the purpose of advancing a political ... or ideological cause ... if it ... endangers a person’s life ... creates a serious risk to the health or safety of ... a section of the public, or is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system" and this not only explicitly includes "action outside the United Kingdom" with further definition of "the government” as "the government of the United Kingdom, of a Part of the United Kingdom or of a country other than the United Kingdom"

http://legislation.data.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/enacted/data.htm?wrap=true

[struggle4progress]

74. (7) Discussion. Some of Greenwald's remarks (e.g. #68) may be construed as threats; Snowden's

motives, as well as Greenwald's, may be regarded as ideological and with the aim of influencing government; Greenwald's claimed possession of UK espionage information (e.g. #70) may endanger lives or pose a threat to the safety of a sector of the public, either in the UK or in some other country (e.g. #68), and Miranda currently appears to be closely involved in the matter (e.g. #69). Therefore the Terrorism Act might apply, and it grants quite broad powers for a limited time, apparently without any requirement of reasonable suspicion (e.g. #72). But I'm not competent to discuss UK law, as I already said (e.g. #61/#71)

[struggle4progress]

34. The standard for searching international travelers may often be somewhat lower

than the general standard within a country. A suspected smuggler cannot expect the authorities to get a warrant before searching luggage at the airport

[snappyturtle]

39. This is what gets me. Hundreds of people were probably in

Heathrow and travellng with their laptops and electronic gear.
Why did they stop Miranda? He had to have been on a list or
the authorities were given a heads up...something? Carrying
a laptop is not endangering the safety of a flight...Isn't that
what airport inspections are supposed to be for?

[struggle4progress]

40. You will have to ask those who detained him, if you want a definitive answer. But perhaps

it is natural to suspect that since he seemed to be on a trip from Greenwald to Poiras and back, with travel paid by the Guardian, authorities might have thought he could be trafficking in stolen documents relevant to UK security

[snappyturtle]

42. I see your point...thank you. But....how did random airport

security people know who he visited? How would they have connected
him to Greenwald? Remember...he's just a traveler passing through
to his flight....did someone tip them off? I think so. imho

[struggle4progress]

44. There's extensive passenger screening in some airports and for some flights after 9/11:

this became an international issue for a while about a decade ago

[snappyturtle]

45. Until we know for certain that screening you mentioned

occurred I'm sticking with: the authorities were tipped off.
I recall Israel as being a country with an extensive verbal
screening process. However, i know of no other...not there
there weren't/aren't.

[struggle4progress]

47. Well, you may want to look up the Passenger Name Record Agreement that the EU agreed to in 2012,

resolving a dispute going back to the Bush era

[snappyturtle]

48. Thank you. nt

[snappyturtle]

49. WOW! Thank you. I knew zip about this agreement. It explains how the U.S.

Last edited Mon Aug 19, 2013, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)

and U.K. would know David Miranda was landing in London....ripe for the picking
in a transit zone with many fewer rights than on land in Britain proper!


http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf/en/11/st17/st17434.en11.pdf

from page 4: (PNR=personal name record)

DETERMINED to prevent and combat terrorist offenses and transnational crime, while respecting
fundamental rights and freedoms and recognizing the importance of privacy and the protection of
personal data and information;
HAVING REGARD for international instruments, U.S. statutes and regulations requiring each air
carrier operating passenger flights in foreign air transportation to or from the United States to make
PNR available to the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to the extent they are collected and
contained in the air carrier's automated reservation/departure control systems, and comparable
requirements that are or may be implemented in the EU;
NOTING that DHS processes and uses PNR for the purpose of preventing, detecting, investigating
and prosecuting terrorist offenses and transnational crime in compliance with safeguards on privacy
and the protection of personal data and information, as set out in this Agreement;

Edit: seems to apply to flight between the U.S. and member countries in the EU. So not sure if this really applies here unless the U.S. has access to passenger lists of flights between EU member
countries.

[struggle4progress]

36. Do you have a copy of Schedule 7? It's possible, for example, that both (1) the public justification

for Schedule 7 was the need for counter-terrorism powers and (2) the law, as actually written and implemented, has much broader scope than counter-terrorism

[struggle4progress]

37. Miranda was detained by UK authorities in the UK, not by US authorities

[struggle4progress]

38. Snowden obtained his documents via a private contractor, so his acts do not necessarily

reflect directly on the NSA

[Aerows]

43. Nobody with a brain

at this point, doubts that the NSA knows exactly what Snowden has. What they do know he has, apparently, has them changing pants every five minutes after they realize the latest implications of what he has.

Why they don't try to get out in front of the story is anyone's guess. I suppose it is because it is so bad that getting in front of it instead of finding ways to knock Snowden/Greenwald/Poitras/anyone they care about is going to make it all explode like a match to a gasoline spill.

Which that also doesn't look good for government(s), but they move at the speed of a snail.

And that is also part of the problem. Too many ancient bureaucrats that should have either been put out to pasture or outright fired long ago.

Some people need to get fired, starting with Alexander and Clapper, but don't stop there. Can their staff, too. and then really get rolling at the Pentagon.

[JoeyT]

51. My guess would be that

whatever it is, it's bad enough that getting out in front of it would be like getting out in front of a train.

I'm pretty sure they know what he's got. I'm almost certain the system would log who accessed what and when. If it doesn't, that would just add another layer of embarrassment.

Edited to add: Or maybe they just think the peasantry have no right to know what their government does in their name. That wouldn't really surprise me either.

[sigmasix]

53. why dont teabaggers deserve to be put out to pasture?

Since it was republican party elites during the Bush administration that changed the NSA's scope and abilities, shouldnt there be some republican law makers in the house and senate that should be given the boot? It's always funny when so called free thinking Americans parrot the right wing media narratives that insist president Obama is an enemy to America, pursuing the ability to spy on every American all the time. These same "concerned progressives" that smear the president and the democratic party with OPs that are posted over and over again in defense of the ODS being expressed by the hair on fire crew. (guess you could call them conspiracy theory humpers, since they've taken to using the same pejoritive towards anyone that dares to question the grand conspiracy theories that place president Obama at the center of a nefarious attempt to use the NSA to maintain a political opponent kill list and constant surveilance of the entire American population). I wonder why the GOP's deeds go un-attributed and applauded by DU members that are falling over themselves to post negative narratives and hyperbole about the democratic party and this president. Anyone with a functioning brain that has read the releases knows that the accusations leveled at the president contain no shreds of any evidence that he was involved in erecting the intelligence industry, or directing NSA officials to spy on republican political foes.
For teabaggers- the truth...it burns!

[Progressive dog]

46. The NSA is not in the UK. nt

[MineralMan]

60. Actually, that is not so. They are in the UK.

NSA operates RAF Menwith Hill in North Yorkshire, United Kingdom, which was, according to BBC News in 2007, the largest electronic monitoring station in the world.[62] Planned in 1954, and opened in 1960, the base covered 562 acres (227 ha; 0.878 sq mi) as of 1999.[63]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency

Learning about the NSA and its operations is fairly easy. Even Wikipedia has good information. It's work backgrounding yourself, I think.

[Progressive dog]

63. Actually it is so, Menwith Hill is a RAF airbase

and uses USAF support. It has antennas to talk to US NSA satellites which are "alleged" to be part of "Echelon."

[MineralMan]

64. The NSA has personnel there, too.

It is a joint operation. Sorry.

Here, see this:

Though the base is officially called RAF Menwith Hill, most of the staff there are US employees of the NSA. The total number of people working there is due to increase from 1,800 last year (of whom 400 were British) to 2,500 in 2015.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/01/menwith-hill-eavesdropping-base-expansion

[Progressive dog]

67. NSA doesn't run the airport,

and neither does the US government. The fact that your info. comes from the Guardian also is a negative. We already know that they print half truths and exaggerations as fact.

From the RAF

The base operates with the full knowledge and consent of HMG and is regarded as being of vital importance to this country’s defence strategy. RAF Menwith Hill functions primarily as a field station of the National Security Agency (NSA), which is the largest of several elements of the US DoD represented at the base. UK personnel from the MoD and Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) are fully integrated at all levels within both the operational and administrative areas of the base. British staffs are aware of all facets of the base’s operations and no activity detrimental to the UK’s interests is carried out there.

[Dustin DeWinde]

52. snowden stole secrets he is a,traitor

As for the Brits detaining a suspected traficker in stolen property, hooray for the rule of law.

[uponit7771]

65. +1

[TBF]

66. I'm not convinced that they do know what Greenwald has -

they could well be poking at him to get him to release everything.

Or if they do know, they realize that releasing it slowly bit by bit allows everyone to parse all of it - that's the last thing they want.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. A commentator

Suggested NSA had no clue what Snowden tool.