A quick question about this spying business...

[TreasonousBastard]

Last edited Thu Aug 22, 2013, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

granted it's illegal, and just plain wrong, to be listening to phone calls and reading emails, but in the years this has been going on, has anyone actually been hurt by all this activity?

I don't mean just pissed, or some metaphysical hurt from the whole thing happening, but actually lost a job, been jailed, or something else bad happened because of this?

I remember the Hoover days when innocent people did get hurt. And even today people are being hounded, but all the stories I've heard are "investigations" carried out the old fashioned way-- just with little regard for justice.

[bemildred]

1. How would we know? nt

[TreasonousBastard]

7. Fair question.

[KoKo]

2. How would we know....since it's all secret as to who they DataMine?

This is more massive than what Hoover was able to do. We've moved far beyond tapping phones.

We don't know who has been harmed because they don't release who has been targeted. Who has lost or gained a job? Who has been blackmailed because they have some business associate abroad who has a relative involved with what is flagged as a suspicious organization and so they have had their e-mails, skypes, phone date gone through. Which Congresspersons, Business Executives, Local/State Government Officials have been targeted because a donor is involved with an organization on NSA Watchlist. What if they have a relative distant or close who is involved in any organization or activity that is on NSA Watchlist. Any contact with that person would open one to having their information targeted.

There are just so many ways that this can be abused. The Haystack Example...when one goes through the whole haystack to find one needle, comes to mind as what this is.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. Still a fair question, but...

approaching paranoia. Various government and private agencies collect vast amounts of data that, if ever put together, put to shame the drivel that NSA collects by accident. Do you have any idea what Amazon and Google know about you?

One of my jobs is to collect such data, with the proviso that everything is double encrypted and firewalls are up so that even subpoena powers are moot. The IRS and FBI have tried, but couldn't get in. And, I am liable for a serious jail term and huge fines if I violate the oath I took to keep this stuff secret.

But it's all still in a government database somewhere. Let the needle search begin.

[RobertEarl]

3. Your question is absurd

It is like you are saying:

Sure, they are slaves, but everyone looks happy, so what's the problem?

Fuck that.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. Speaking of absurd, I asked who has been harmed...

and this is your answer-- to equate passive info gathering with slavery?

[RobertEarl]

13. I told you

The slaves. That's who is harmed. We are all slaves to the NSA spying.

What? You think you have a choice? You think you can tell them to not spy on every fucking move you make? The way it is, or soon enough will be, if they have their way, the NSA owns you.

[Lee-Lee]

4. We know that both the IRS and DEA used this info

And then hid it by pretending they just happened across the right vehicle at a stop and got lucky, or however the IRS similarly used it.

So we can be reasonably certain that people have been jailed as part of the WOD based on this data, form what has been revealed. But because they hid the fact by building the case as if they didn't use that info, those people in jail based on it probably have no clue this is how they ended up there.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. Do we know that? Evidence. Evidence.

[KharmaTrain]

5. Let's Look At It This Way...

...has anyone who suspected their calls had been tapped illegally sued? That's I think more important...is there any case of someone being falsely arrested due to an illegal government wiretap? I've asked this question several times since this "scandal" has blown into the open. Supposedly all intercepts have been accompanied by a warrant...but that's also worth investigating as they were all granted in a secret court. There's lots of questions here that need to be asked and clarified...rather than dealing with all the speculation...

[TreasonousBastard]

12. That's kinda my point...

lots of hysteria, but little actual proven harm.

In the Hoover days, actual plans were made to infiltrate and destroy "un-American" people and groups-- i.e people and groups Hoover didn't like.

With HUAC, it was all out in the open, except for the secret stuff we found out about later.

Lives were destroyed, but we knew why and who did it. And as far as the law and common decency went, what they were doing was far worse and for far worse reasons.

[KharmaTrain]

14. A Lot Play The "Whatif" Game...

...and with a limited degree of validity. If a government can accumulate all this data then it has the ability to use it in whatever manner against a private citizen. And there is a track record of abuses, but the two don't necessarily synch up in this case...why I was asking for a specific example of the NSA being used in the wrongful arrest/prosecution. Then the argument goes further that while this administration may be benign, that doesn't preclude a future one from once again abusing privacy. It turns into an endless look and add more spinning and speculation and soon black helicopters show up.

The first step is to go from yelling about the problem to finding out exactly what that problem is. This is a job for a Senator Wyden and others in the House & Senate who have the ability to call witness testimony under oath and then enact or amend laws to prevent abuses. Maybe I'm a dreamer...

[kentuck]

6. When our government was torturing prisoners....?

...Did it hurt any of us?

I would argue that it hurt all of us. It destroys part of our souls, if we have a soul...

[TreasonousBastard]

10. It hurt the prisoners it tortured...

I'm asking who is hurt here.

And you're getting all touchyfeelymetaphysical about this-- no man is an island and all that.

But, as much I might be diminished because some child a thousand miles away is denied medical care, it is really the child who is being harmed, not me.

[kentuck]

18. "all touchyfeelymetaphysical"??

I guess we disagree.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. $75bn is no trifling amount for the taxpayers to cough up to be spied on.

Not to mention it's ineffective and self defeating.

http://www.fas.org/irp/budget/index.html

[TreasonousBastard]

16. Oh come on-- this is the entire intelligence budget...

probably not including black ops, but including the CIA and at least a whole lot of Homeland Security.

Even if the NSA is in there, and it might not be, it would be a small part of the 75billion and the domestic part apparently 15% of whatever that is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. So? You think the intellingence budget is worthwhile to that extent?

To what purpose? Piss off the rest of the world and cause more wars?

[TreasonousBastard]

19. How quaint. Of course I don't appreciate a huge spy budget, but...

the fact is that we happen to live in a dangerous, sneaky, and scary world. Spies are, unfortunately, a fact of life-- everyone spies on us and we spy on everyone. Is that good? I doubt it, but try to change it.

When Stimson shut down the spies under Hoover, was there any interest at all in whether or not that eventually led to a blind spot in the activities of Germany and Japan?

Every time there's any kind of major tragedy, an attack, a storm, an earthquake, our immediate reaction is how to stop it from happening again, or at least to mitigate the damage.

After Pearl Harbor, who would dare say we don't need to watch out for foreign military ventures. After 9-11, who would dare say militants are no threat? Those in charge of seeing it doesn't happen again simply look at the possible consequences of not doing something that could be done.

If your job was to make sure another American city doesn't get horrifically attacked, how would you know where to stop? And how would your cost/benefit analysis look?

[JoeyT]

20. Since it's secret, we have no way of knowing.

But I'd be willing to bet they're using that information in federal level background checks, even on people that aren't dealing with any sensitive or dangerous data or materials. (e.g. TWIC cards)

Edited to add: I say I'd be willing to bet that because they damn sure dig through everything else when they do those background checks.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. It's tough to see how a bazillion random phone numbers or emails could...

be put into any sensible order for a background check.

Having been through many background checks over the years, I can tell you for sure that they do miss a lot, whatever it is they're doing.

[Boom Sound 416]

22. It's about

Intimidation and fear of retribution