I am not transphobic, I hate name changes

[jollyreaper2112]

Usually celebrities are the offenders. Cat Stevens is now some Islamic name, puff daddy can't figure out what he wants to call himself, snoop smoked a mountain of door and decided to become a lion, Prince becomes an unpronounceable symbol, Saul decides to become Paul. It's needlessly confusing. Istanbul, not Constantinople. Sports venues and famous landmarks being renamed because someone spent money.

Objectively I know these two things aren't really the same and I understand he's got gender confusion problems. But as far as my irritation with the whole thing goes, it has nothing to do with gender and more to do with constant name changing.

[Liberal Veteran]

1. Why did Constantinople get the works?

[winter is coming]

2. I blame the song. n/t

[nomorenomore08]

16. That's nobody's business but the Turks!

[backscatter712]

65. Even old New York, was once New Amsterdam.

Why'd they change it, I can't say,
People just liked it better that way!

[myrna minx]

3. Chelsea Manning doesn't have gender confusion issues, but by all means,

mock away.

[NYC_SKP]

7. Giving the benefit of the doubt here...

I think people don't mean to be offensive but, instead, by imagining how they'd feel in that situation and concluding that they'd probably feel confused, they use that adjective "confused".

Chelsea's gender identity is an uncommon one and not widely accepted or understood, so many if not most people aren't going to speak to it very artfully or with great sensitivity, and I think it's forgivable.

[treestar]

62. agreed, I hate self righteousness

and these things give the self righteous such a great opening. Here they are hanging onto this in order to label other people transphobes.

[jollyreaper2112]

8. It's not mockery

Mockery would actually involve attacks and insults.

[Ms. Toad]

10. Refusing to use the gender pronoun she has requested

and describing being a trans* individual as confused are both insults. Not only to Chelsea Manning, but the the trans* members of DU.

[myrna minx]

12. This post sounds like some low rent whiny Jerry Seinfeld-esque riff at the expense of trans people.

Why are airline peanuts so difficult to open and why do I have to bother to remember someone's name and pronoun?

[Synthesize]

25. What if someone just doesn't like Manning and takes any opportunity to ignore his/her requests

... out of principle?

[Tien1985]

27. It's the same

As not liking Colin Powell. I don't like him, or his politics, but I don't not use derogatory racial slurs to talk about him. It's offensive and uncalled for.

It isn't about whether someone likes Manning or not, her gender identity is not something to mock because one doesn't like her.

[Ms. Toad]

31. Good analogy. n/t

[pipi_k]

45. Using the "wrong" pronoun

is not even in the same league with a racial slur unless the wrong pronoun is "it"...which is totally offensive.

[Orrex]

57. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Sun Aug 25, 2013, 12:10 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Using the "wrong" pronoun
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3530962

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This poster has been consistently and deliberately rude to trans* individuals by repeatedly trivializing the concerns (e.g. "wrong" pronouns - implying the member does not really thing it is wrong), asserting that in order to be "respectful" by using the pronouns requested the member would "have to suspend my belief in something I know as fact" (http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3528252), insisting that body parts = gender (http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3526105 ). This is a relatively mild post, but when I see the same person multiple times deliberately being disrespectful, each additional post brings to my experience reading it the recent history of this poster in DU, which is hurtful, rude, insensitive and - at least in aggregate - over the top.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Aug 25, 2013, 12:21 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Sorry, but if "This is a relatively mild post" then it shouldn't be alerted on. Alerts aren't meant to be done in aggregate either. The job of the jury is to judge the alerted post, not the history or personality of the poster, and judgement is not based on whether the juror disagrees with the content of the post.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I am judging this post alone which I do not find offensive. I have not read the other posts or the context in which they were written.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: alerter says it all. "This is a relatively mild post" Alerter your an asshole use the fucking ignore button.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Took me a second to comprehend what was going on here, but now I get it. The poster is diminishing anti-transexual slurs by identifying it as "less bad" than racial epithets, from which it follows that transexuals either are less injured by or are less deserving of protectin from such slurs. This has the effect of identifying transsexuals as inferior, which is an attitude out of place on a progressive forum.

I concur with the alerting DUer that this post in itself isn't especially egregious, but it follows a general trend from the poster and IMO should be hidden.

Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: This post is borderline, but voted to hide for repeated offenses. Obsessively aggravating on a topic they need to just let go.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Zorra]

71. On what reasoning do you base your prejudice? nt

[Ms. Toad]

28. How you treat Manning as to this request

hurts other trans* members of DU, and those who love them.

I don't care how you deal with any other request made by Manning. But ignoring this request is cruel to every trans* person who encounters you deliberately mis-gendering someone.

[pipi_k]

47. Not to trivialize

or anything, but if the worst that ever happens to someone is that he is labelled with the "wrong" pronoun, then I guess he's doing pretty well for himself.

As for being hurtful, does anyone who worries about Trans people and their families being devastated by that whole thing ever express the same concern about how people with mental illnesses feel when people here call certain (Repub/Conservative) others "crazy"? Or, "batshit crazy"?

How about when people make fun of the obese? Like when Chris Christie or Rush Limbaugh are called fat pigs...

Call people out on that sort of thing, and what's the excuse? Oh, they're public figures so it's OK to do that. Or, they're dirty stinking Republicans, so it's OK.

Which is all bullshit. Absolute bullshit.

Selective "sensitivity" sucks big time.

[Ms. Toad]

50. I do - in each of those cases.

Both in alerts and in conversations in threads.

It is entirely inappropriate to use a characteristic which is the target of bigotry as a tool to bash someone you don't like, because it isn't an insult unless the person hurling it perceives that characteristic as negative.

So how about adopting your own distaste for selective sensitivity byusing the gender pronouns Chelsea Manning has requested people use, and ending the trivialization of its importance to trans* people, and those who love them, by removing the quote marks from wrong, as it is patronizing because it implies you don't really think it is wrong.

[pipi_k]

58. I don't see

someone using the "wrong" pronoun as being a burning issue compared to all the other things Trans people have to deal with...one of those things being outright hatred from people who have no empathy at all for their plight.

It's not like people are using nasty slurs or pejoratives, like "batshit crazy" or "fat pigs".

Or "it", which is dehumanizing, to say the very least.

Do we always "respect" people's wishes to refer to them the way they see themselves?

If a painfully thin friend were to say she's fat, is it respectful to play the game and tell her, yes, you are a fat slob, when what you see isn't what she sees?

It is, after all, what she's looking for, right? Someone to validate her belief that she's fat.

I don't play games.

Don't show me orange and tell me I have to call it green.

I have all the compassion in the world for people with gender identification issues. It has to suck big time. Not that it's remotely the same, but I've always felt like a short person trapped in a tall person's body. I hated being tall. Hated all the tall jokes. All the goddamned, "How's the weather up there?" crap. Feeling ugly and awkward.

Yeah. I have real compassion for others, which, IMO, is worth way more than humoring someone with fake-ass "respect".

[Orrex]

60. You demonstrate a curious over-reliance on scare quotes.

What are we to make of this?

[Ms. Toad]

61. Using a pronoun other than the pronoun requested is disrespectful

Not only to Chelsea Manning, but to every trans* person who sees how you treat her - and it is not with compassion.

Yes, there are big dramatic issues which trans* people face. That doesn't mean the little disrespectful digs (and that is what using the wrong pronoun is) aren't also offensive, particularly in a place which is supposed to be progressive. Gestures of acceptance and attempts to be supportive are critically important to the emotional health of trans* individuals - and how you publicly treat one trans* individual impacts the others who see it.

My closest friend, on the eve of her transition at work, had the misfortune of being in the cafeteria with co-workers when one of the talk shows came on with a trans* individual. Not knowing a trans* individual was present, the co-workers she trusted had a good yuk over the person being interviewed. Even though they weren't talking about her, she knew that in a few days they would be saying the same things about her. This is one incident, but that dynamic has been going on for more than 5 decades - a slow steady drip that tells her she will never be feminine enough, never be "she," that she will always be perceived as an imposter or a clown.

The unconditional acceptance, and good faith attempts to get it right on gender, when she dared tell a few individuals at the time she was still perceived as male. Those things - before any public steps at transition - made it possible for her to think of the possibility of living as a woman after 5 decades.

Manning is already past that point, and has made a public declaration. It isn't playing games to honor the request to use the pronouns requested - it is a matter of being respectful and compassionate. Anyone who is truly compassionate toward trans* individuals will use the gender she has publicly requested.

[BainsBane]

80. What principle? Bigotry?

You're perfectly entitled to like or dislike anyone. What is not acceptable is to engage in bigotry against the transgendered out of animosity for one individual or any other reason.

[NYC_SKP]

85. Then you can do that but keep it to yourself.

Outward disrespect in this community won't be tolerated.

See your deleted reply below.

[NYC_SKP]

84. Insulting not only to trans* members of DU but also to many others among us.

We fight for all underrepresented and oppressed groups and individuals.

What hurts one hurts us all.

[Ms. Toad]

86. I agree.

It is just most directly hurtful to trans* members for whom the daily flow of deliberate misgendering is a backdrop for a lot of larger insults - including life threatening ones. And - I'm having a hard time expanding the horizons of those deliberately mis-gendering Chelsea Manning (and jurors reviewing the posts) to even think beyond Chelsea Manning to other trans* individuals who are indirectly being told that their gender identity is not up to them to define.

[dipsydoodle]

33. As I said elsewhere - why name yourself after a football club

to which someone else appended its maybe because Jose Mourinho is back there.

I've no doubt Chelsea's supporter's, especially The Headhunters , are some what less than amused. Doubtless there are suggestions elsewhere that he should have used have Tottenham , whatever instead.

[MillennialDem]

4. As a trans woman myself, it's silly to go through life with a male name

like Bradley as a woman.

[pipi_k]

49. Oh, I dunno...

if I were hoping for a boy baby so I could name him Bradley and got a girl instead, I would probably name her "Bradleigh".

[MillennialDem]

5. Also it is not gender confusion. She knows she is a woman in her brain. The body

does not match, but she is not confused.

[Bay Boy]

37. It's not confusion, it's a disorder

GID Gender Identification Disorder. Well, that doesn't sound any better now does it?

[MillennialDem]

38. It will be called gender dysphoria in the DSM V and is no longer a disorder, it is

society's view of it that causes the problems. The problem does not lie with the individual.

[Bay Boy]

40. I agree n/t

[DontTreadOnMe]

6. Chelsea Stadium? Oh wait, it's MetLife Stadium now...

it's all so confusing...

[Mr.Bill]

9. It also has nothing to do with Phobia.

No one fears Pvt. Manning.

[forestpath]

11. Wow. How on earth do you cope when people you know get married and

change their last names?

I've never heard of anyone so easily traumatized by name changes.

[theHandpuppet]

24. +1000!

Zing!!!

[JustAnotherGen]

26. +1

I changed my name when I got married last year - I didn't know it was distressing for a woman to change her name. How is Ms. Manning any different? What if years down the road she marries? People going to mantie bunch if she changes her name to her husbands?

[jollyreaper2112]

42. It's trying

Especially people who get married and divorced multiple times.

[forestpath]

48. What about NICKNAMES? Lots of people use multiple variations of

their given names. I do. I can't imagine your reaction to my given name, which has multiple variations and I'm called by many of them by different relatives, friends, coworkers...I shudder to think how that kind of situation would affect you.

And - is jollyreaper2112 your real name? If not, how do you handle the confusion of having a posting name different from your actual name and knowing when to use each one? It must take a spreadsheet!!!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. everytime someone gets married its like PTSD over here

[BlueStreak]

13. I still call it Bombay. And Burma.

Does that make me nation-phobic (or city-phobic)?

I understand why Suriname prefers not to be called Dutch Guyana, and maybe I'll get around to that in a few years. Does that make me South America-phobic?

[GeorgeGist]

22. Makes you sound like a Republican.

[flvegan]

14. So then, you're an idiot.

I mean, it's all you. You "hate name changes" so everything else is just an inconvenience?

[BOG PERSON]

18. +1

[quinnox]

15. I think Prince is back to Prince now

Cat Stevens is still known as Cat Stevens even today despite his name change, anyway. I suspect Bradley Manning will still be known as Bradley to the public for the foreseeable future as well.

[nomorenomore08]

17. And you started an OP just for this? How bored *are* you tonight?

[steve2470]

19. I'm not crazy about them either but I'll gladly make the effort for a transgendered person

Last edited Sun Aug 25, 2013, 04:31 AM - Edit history (1)

Basic respect/civility/kindness/karma/insert your favorite reason here

eta: them = name changes

[handmade34]

20. "I am not transphobic"

maybe just lazy then? or generally disrespectful??.....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

21. constant name changing...

Bradley just wants to be known as Chelsea. That's not constant.

Also lots of people change their name, legally.


Is there some deeper issue that is going through your mind that you care to share?

Manning isn't a celebrity. Manning is an unlawful prisoner.


That's what I hate.

[GeorgeGist]

23. Narrow minded BS.

[gollygee]

29. Huh?

The Prince thing was the result of his no longer working with a record label that claimed it owned his name. He knew that if he got alphabetized somewhere other than "Prince" it would negatively affect him, so he changed his name into something that couldn't be pronounced or spelled so he'd always be "Prince" and his materials would all be together in the store. I think that was brilliant on his part.

Anyway, people change their names. I did when I got married. And Chealsea isn't "constantly" changing her name. She has changed it just one time.

[LuvNewcastle]

30. Name changes aren't strange in the least.

People do it regularly and have been doing it for all of recorded history. The Bible has plenty of examples: Abram became Abraham, Jacob became Israel, Saul became Paul, as you mentioned. It tends to happen as a result of a watershed event in a person's life, such as a conversion or a marriage, but it can happen just because someone wants a change or because they just aren't satisfied with the name they were originally called.

A person has the right to be called whatever he prefers. It's really not my place or your place to question it. If my best friend tells me today that he wants to be called Napoleon from now on, I will do that. You know why? Because I respect him, and that's essentially what this issue is about. Whether it's an individual or a nation or an ethnicity, you should call people what they wish to be called out of respect for them.

[City Lights]

32. I'm on my third DU name.

I took advantage of DU's name change twice.

[Zorra]

34. Do you find you have a general fear of change, or is it just name changes? nt

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Have you ever mentioned this at a wedding where names change most of the time?

Have you written to Kareem (Dear Lew, your name change annoys me) or Ali? And the confusion is all yours, not Chelsea's. You are confused by Istanbul renamed long before you were born so you confuse easily and deeply.

[UtahLib]

36. Yes

Or not confused at all, just obstinate and inconsiderate as hell.

[Brickbat]

39. Other people's names are all about you?

How very interesting.

[Iggo]

41. I'm not transphobic, therefore it's okay for me to exhibit transphobic behavior.

I'm special, you see.

[gollygee]

43. Well it's hard to adjust to these name changes

It's only been somewhere close to 2000 years since Saul became Paul. It's just confusing to keep up with this stuff.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. ..

[nolabear]

44. Noted, jollyreaper. Btw how did your parents decide on that name?

[burnodo]

46. "he's got gender confusion problems"

*BZZZZZT* All done.

[rrneck]

51. Where I am "Mary" can become "Starlight". It's annoying. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

70. And your real name is rrneck?

Do all those name changing 'brides' annoy you too? Every bloody nun changes their name, each Pope takes a new name, every lodge a complaint about that?

[rrneck]

73. I have little patience for affectation.

Name changes at marriage are customary, but of course not mandatory. The same holds true when one becomes a bride of Christ or a Pope. Gender identification is another good reason for a name change. Those changes stand for something more than an idle whim.

While a name is by no means carved in stone, it carries with it a measure of symbolic significance and changing it demands others "reimprint" a new name to replace the old one. It's a little bit rude to ask that of others just for the hell of it.

Have I committed some horrible ideological sin or was there a Pope Starlight The First that I haven't heard about?

[War Horse]

52. Constantinople?

It's Miklagard, dammit!

[SwankyXomb]

55. Byzantium, anyone? n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

53. So your Mommy named you jollyreaper2112? Or is that a name that you, like, picked?

Your username could be your actual and only name if exclusive nomenclature is of such importance to you, many on DU use their actual names. But you change your name each time you post.

[Gormy Cuss]

54. So you're against women changing their surnames when they marry, right?

Too damn confusing.

[Posteritatis]

56. It's interesting that "once" means "constant" now.

Also that you feel so wronged by this.

[pipi_k]

59. I interpreted it

to mean the numbers of people who are changing their names (some of them multiple times), not just one person doing it once...

[Bluenorthwest]

69. You mean like 95% of couples getting married? Many of them do marry a few times....

I wonder if the OP has registered his whines with that set? That's by far the most common name change, the Sanctity of Marriage. Had no idea this bothered the very people who practice it.
Do you have some supporting evidence that MORE people are changing their names now than in the past? Of course you don't.....
Is 'pipi' your real name or one you adopted to use here? Pipi k. As your Mommy named you? Did your Mommy keep her birth name or change it to your Daddy's name? Are you holding your birth name or a new one from 'marriage'? Is there a Mr K? Just the one letter? Very clean and elegant....

[lunatica]

63. Whine, whine, whine

The only one who seems to get confused is you and people like you.

[Stinky The Clown]

64. You not okay with most women changing their name when they get married?

(Note, this is NOT about the custom of women changing their names at marriage. My own wife chose not to and I am perfectly fine with that.)

[backscatter712]

66. OMG! Chelsea changed her name once! Everybody panic and pout! n/t

[noamnety]

67. I am totally with you on this!

And don't even get me started on how often people change their clothes! OMG, I spend a whole day getting used to my husband in a gray shirt, and then the next day he's in a blue one.

I'm like - WTF, man. Pick one thing and stick with it.

Having to keep track of things like my boss is the person in khakis - and then the next day I go to work and fuck, now my boss is the person in a suit.

The whole thing just pisses me off, and I swear they do it just to mess with me personally. I shouldn't have to deal with this shit.

[bluestate10]

68. Manning doesn't have gender confusion problems. Manning is Transgendered.

I have no position on the name change as I have no position on other name changes. What I do have a problem with are the people on DU who attack anyone that don't 100% toe the line around Transgendered people. Any failure to toe the line is put in terms of the offending person endangering the lives of Transgendered people. Transgendered people face dangers, but alienating people that are on the side of eliminating those dangers is counter-productive and frankly foolish.

[LanternWaste]

72. You'll be changing your user name to you birth name soon then, yes

You'll be changing your user name to you birth name soon then, yes? To maintain consistency and avoid the appearance of holding others to a higher standard than you hold yourself...

(Insert distinction without a difference here)

[Marrah_G]

74. Gender confusion problems?

Fucking really?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. constant name changing? is she doing it every 5 mins?

[MADem]

78. Yusuf Islam is the name Cat Stevens took.

His name is used in a kind of mocking way by Muslim youth when they want to make fun of some earnest "seeker on a path" who decides to go hang out at the mosque, dress in clothing that is not part of their cultural norm, and dabble in Islam.

You'll hear "Oh, here comes Cat Stevens" or "Here comes Yusuf Islam" when one of these dabblers comes in --- it's kinda mean, but it's a bit funny, too.

Manning doesn't have gender confusion problems--there's no real confusion; the insides just don't match the outside. Imagine waking up one morning as the opposite gender, trying to tell people that you aren't that sex, and having people look at you like you're a bit off. That is what her life was like since birth.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

79. "gender confusion problems"

Shame on you.

[Union Scribe]

81. Then just use "Manning"

and your problem is solved.

[FloridaJudy]

83. I only have problems if it's difficult to pronounce or spell

"Chelsea" is perfectly fine on both accounts.

What do you call the boxer formerly known as Cassius Clay?

'Nuff said.