a rare note of gratitude to president obama from ... me.

[xchrom]

i oppose striking syria. period.

but i have to appreciate his seeking a vote from congress.

my side might lose the debate -- but hopefully this begins to put some barriers around the unitary executive plague that we have been saddled with.

[Jefferson23]

1. I share that too.

[hrmjustin]

2. I am glad he is going to congress.

[MNBrewer]

3. Yes!

I'm SO thankful that he is rightfully involving Congress in this (even if they are being dragged kicking and screaming). Congress has too long shirked its responsibility in war making, and in abdicating that power to the Executive.

And if my side loses the debate and strikes go ahead, I will remain opposed, but at least the debate will have been had and the legal mechanisms observed.

I will be letting my Representative and Senators know I want them to vote no. I think Keith Ellison will vote no, but I think Franken and Klobuchar will vote yes.

Could draw a Democratic primary challenger for Franken if he does vote for it.

[xchrom]

4. we need to call the critters. that's our job. nt

[malaise]

5. +1,000

Rec

[bemildred]

6. Totally. nt

[mick063]

7. As of late, the President has been making wise choices across several issues.

There is still the matter of TPP.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. From me as well, this is what we are supposed to do.

The unitary executive is bad for both the people and for that executive. I think it is sad that there was no stomach for holding Bushco accountable for the Iraq lies, because as we now see, the lies and the lack of accountability have made it difficult for the people to trust the executive branch and the Congress.
Once you declare that the worst deliberate lies causing thousands of deaths are not worthy of any sort of punishment, you have declared that you also feel the right to lie about any and everything yourself.

[truebluegreen]

9. And me.

Just please nobody start talking about chess.

[riqster]

80. That would add a new "dimension" to the discussion...

[truebluegreen]

81. You just had to go there...

[Flying Squirrel]

10. Ditto n/t

[iandhr]

11. He has always been wary of intervention.

That why it hasn't happened yet.

He did box himself into a corner with the "red line" comment"

I think the reason he is going to congress is he want an out.

[Enthusiast]

12. I agree, xchrom....nt

[whttevrr]

13. I agree...

I got a notice on my phone that The President was asking congress to vote and I actually let out a grateful sigh.

I hope congress is its usual disagreeable self.

[Voice for Peace]

67. unless we get people like McCain prevailing and end up with a bigger war...

[whttevrr]

71. Ugh... shush...

I would like to wallow in ignorance for the weekend.
{Do I need the snark tag here?}

But, yeah... Lesley and McCain could push this into happening.

How sad is it that I just do not trust my government to tell me the truth?

[Voice for Peace]

72. McCain will always push for the big war as he imagines that's what makes him shine? I guess

and especially if Obama wants only a teensy war, that will never do.

Telling the truth is a huge order for anybody.

[Surya Gayatri]

14. Couldn't agree more.

[pnwmom]

15. I'm also pleased with how he handled this.

Once again, I think he's surprised some people by not being a Bush clone.

[Jackpine Radical]

57. Not surprised as much as gladdened.

[Mira]

16. The President did what I said I could do

on the subject - he spoke out of both sides of his mouth - and preserved the constitutional need for approval from Congress.
I hope it will end up that we are not going to invade Syria and find other ways to express our extreme opposition to chemical warfare (this time in history)...

[MindMover]

17. and so did many of the worlds powers decide to let Hitler do his thang

and 6,000,000 +++ lives later .... whooops

[MNBrewer]

49. Assad is no Hitler, despite the facial hair

[hueymahl]

64. Pretty weak analogy

Assad is not invading another country. And its not Europe. And there are dozens of tin pot dictators throughout the past decades in Africa waging war against their own people that have not turned into hitler. But other than those differences. . . .

[MindMover]

76. Yea, and the proximity of Syria to Israel and western Europe is not reason for concern ...

[lunatica]

18. I fail to see any good outcome regarding Syria

No matter what happens.

[MindMover]

19. That we stop a lunatic a, I personally think that is a great outcome ...

[lunatica]

20. How cute

[rhett o rick]

21. Saying we need to stop a lunatic is very simplistic. Of course we want to stop a lunatic.

But it's a bit more complicated. Will Russia intercede and make this into a proxy war like Vietnam? What is the cost of stopping this lunatic? Can we afford it? Why this lunatic and not the many others around the world?

Ahh if life were so simple that we could launch a few cruise missiles and it makes everything peachy.

[MindMover]

24. You sound like all those nations that turned a blind eye to Hitler ....

and said, oh my, all the complications .... then 6,000,000+++ people later .... OH MY

[HardTimes99]

30. Now Assad is "Hitler"? Before he was a "lunatic". Kindly show me links to your

posts from six months ago calling for the removal of this latter-day Hitler.

[MindMover]

33. So what do my posts of 6 months ago have anything to do with the murdering of

innocents .....

He is as close to a modern day Hitler that we have in this world .... he is gassing his own citizens and would not hesitate to do the same to many other citizens around his region of the world ....

[HardTimes99]

35. Oy vey. If he's Hitler now, then he surely was six months ago, n'est-ce pas? But I don't recall

seeing any posts from you advocating his forcible removal six months ago. Wait a second. I got it. He's Hitler (or a "lunatic&quot when you need him to play that role. At other times (like six months ago), though, he's just another head of state. Your moral relativism shows through, despite your turgid sanctimony.

Now who else has played the role of temporary Hitler? Oh yeah, before Assad it was Saddam. Before Saddam it was Noriega. Before Noriega it was Khomeni. And so on and so forth.

[MindMover]

38. 6 months ago, he was only using bullets, rockets, bombs and tanks to destroy

innocents and I was saying well before 6 months ago that the butcher of Damascus should be removed any way possible ....

Remember Hitler used gas to murder 6 million +

[HardTimes99]

41. First "lunatic", next "Hitler," now "butcher of Damascus" - who shall rid me of these

propagandistic labels? Next you'll be referencing some "Axis of Evil" or some such drivel.

[MNBrewer]

50. I think Putin is closer to Hitler than Assad, personally.

[rhett o rick]

37. Your parallel is absurd. And again, we are not the world's police.

What safety net are you willing to give up to fund another war?

[MindMover]

39. Again, we could with missiles and air destroy his military capabilities in 60 days ....

NO BOTG

[rhett o rick]

42. At what cost? Which safety net will suffer? And why is it us? nm

[MindMover]

43. At what cost do we do nothing, that is worse than doing something....

Last edited Sun Sep 1, 2013, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Safety net for who?

Those who act, act because they can, we can .... and most important, it is the right action to take ...

[rhett o rick]

46. We have enabled everyone else. They stand back and let us foot the bill.

Safety net? After we spend 100 million on bombs for peace, who's budget gets cut? Social Security?

[ctsnowman]

75. This ^^^^

[MindMover]

77. This is not entirely a true statement ... many middle eastern countries have helped

foot the bill and provided support in many different areas. ... we are not privy to every countries support because if this was widely known then there own countries security could be jeopardized ...

[HardTimes99]

29. So Assad is a 'lunatic,' is he?

[MindMover]

31. He is a lunatic opthomologist gone wild ....

Last edited Sun Sep 1, 2013, 10:28 PM - Edit history (1)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

89. I think you're obviously wrong for two reasons.

1) There's no serious prospect of "stopping" Assad or removing him from power, only of hampering his military capabilities.

2) If Assad is defeated, much of the opposition doesn't look much better.

[MindMover]

90. Wrong on both points ....

1. If the BoD (Butcher of Damascus) military is sufficiently degraded, then rebels can overcome his regime ...

2. I do not believe opposition can use WMD once they are degraded ...

[spanone]

22. yep

[rhett o rick]

23. I think it's great he is making Congress shoulder some responsibility. nm

[kestrel91316]

44. + 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000

[rhett o rick]

45. Hey! cant you use scientific notation?

[kestrel91316]

47. I forget how that works. Been out of college way too long.

10 to the brazillionth power, if you must.

[rhett o rick]

52. Me too!

do you think Sid will mind if we use that emoticon?

[whttevrr]

55. Ugh... there is no brazillion!

It is Gazillion... or Bajillion.



It would be +10 to the Gazillionth power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indefinite_and_fictitious_numbers

[Le Taz Hot]

62. The "brazillion" refers back

to an old Bush joke which I can't remember at the moment. Same goes with the word "moran" which is used quite a bit here. There are others and as you hang out here, you'll become familiar with them. The moral of the story is that you want to be careful about "correcting" long-time DUers.

And welcome to DU, btw.

[whttevrr]

66. I guess the tongue sticking out smiley does not telegraph intent enough...

Kinda loses the punch if I have to sign everything "just kidding".

I hoped it was easy enough to infer that I had no dog in this fight when I included the link to wikipedia's fake number page.

The real moral of the story is that one persons fake number joke is another's... insult? WTF? That can't be right...

Meh, whatever...

LOL!

Just kidding.

Sheesh, skin is getting way too thin in this place.

[Le Taz Hot]

73. You're right,

I did miss the tongue thingie. Pardon my misunderstanding I was just trying to be helpful.

[liberal_at_heart]

25. He knows he won't get a fight out of Congress. Republicans and democrats are now united in being

pro-war. There is no anti-war party anymore.

[MindMover]

26. If you call stamping out cockroaches a war .....

[socialist_n_TN]

28. So, you're so gung ho........

Have you enlisted yet?

[HardTimes99]

36. 101st Chairborne :rofl: - nt

[socialist_n_TN]

58. Wow, that's pretty funny..........

[calimary]

59. OMG!!! DUzy!!! And I'm SO stealing this!!! 101st Chairborne!

NO SHIT!!!

That's the best I've seen in a long time, HardTimes99!!! Did you think that one up? It's BRILLIANT!!!

Sure fits the cheneys and dougies and wolfowitzes and the rest of the neoCONS. Who wanted every war they saw or even got a whiff of - but NEVER fought, NEVER wore their country's uniform, NEVER saw combat, NEVER put their own asses in harm's way (while being ever so willing to send other people's kids into that meat-grinder).

That one is ABSOLUTELY one that needs to be said, read, and SPREAD!

[MindMover]

86. I suppose you are looking at yourself in the mirror....and you are funny ...

[HardTimes99]

32. Was there ever an 'anti-war' party? Dems supported LBJ on Vietnam pretty much

in lockstep until 1967. Even after Tet '68, Dem Party was in no way 'anti-war'.

Bernie Sanders as a Democratic Socialist might constitute an anti-war Party of One (maybe 1-2 similarly-minded folk in the House). But yeah you are right. American Imperialism has two parties, one with an iron fist and the other with an iron fist inside a velvet glove. But both supporting an imperialist agenda (cloaking it in neo-Wilsonian humanitarian bullshit, but imperialist nonetheless).

[Change has come]

34. DU rec

[MuseRider]

40. I can agree with this completely. n/t

[neverforget]

48. I'm really happy he's doing this. It slows down the race to bomb and possibly stop it

altogether. Doubtful, but it buys time for those of us opposed to this to lobby Congress.

[morningfog]

51. It doesn't change anything but the timing. Regardless of how the vote comes down.

This also has nothing to do with the powers of the executive. It has to do with this strike being so unpopular in this country and around the world.

Obama has carried out acts of war in Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen under a tortured and extreme stretching of the AUMF. He ordered strikes in Libya under the UN.

No one wants anything to do with this.

If Congress says no, they will embarrass themselves if trying to argue under the AUMF. But, he suggested as much today.

[eridani]

53. A very good move

But the reference to "credibility" struck me as creepy.

[Jasana]

54. I agree with your sentiment...

Now it's up to us to try and tell the congresscritters what to do which is NO strike in Syria. No No. No. Will the critters listen? One can only hope. Kudos to the Prez for trying to let us have a voice in this all important matter.

[Jackpine Radical]

56. I'll sign on.

[mountain grammy]

60. and from me.. now it's up to the big mouth Republicans to put up or shut up..

My "no war" son has been here this weekend and, much to my surprise, he supports the President on hitting Syria. He is so distressed over the use of poison against people and thinks crimes against humanity on this scale are worthy of a strike.
He's sure made me think about it more than I've wanted to, but I still believe there's a better way than aggression.

[MNBrewer]

70. It makes me laugh with sadness that the death of these 1400+ people by gas

is somehow a "crime against humanity" on a scale worthy of a strike, while the deaths of >100,000 others by conventional weapons is completely ignored.

The use of chemical weapons may be an international war crime, but there is NO moral difference between killing 1400 people with sarin gas and killing them with bullets or drone shrapnel.

[MindMover]

78. With one humongous exception .... drop a sarin gas rocket into a neighborhood and you kill thousands

drop a rocket into a neighborhood and you might get 50 if they are all in one location ....

[MNBrewer]

79. That's pretty weak

[MindMover]

83. I really do not understand what you mean to say when you say that's pretty weak ...

when you rocket a neighborhood with sarin gas and indiscriminately murder thousands of innocent lives compared to rocketing a neighborhood to destroy fighters that are shooting bullets at you ....

what is weak about my statement ...?

[MNBrewer]

84. Rockets only kill fighters that are shooting bullets at you??

when did this amazing new weapon come about?

[MindMover]

85. Yes, there are civilian casualties when rockets are aimed at fighters ...

no doubt, however, this killing does not equal the killing that goes on when sarin gas is used in the same neighborhood ...

[MNBrewer]

87. I see how that will be of great comfort to the families of the civilians who were killed

by conventional weapons.

[MindMover]

88. If your argument is that the world community should have acted a long time ago ...

because morally speaking one innocent death or one thousand innocent deaths is tooooooo many, no matter what means they died ....

I totally agree. Our moral outrage should have been triggered long ago ....

[mountain grammy]

82. It's the use of chemical weapons or nukes. Neither can be tolerated..

but how to punish a government that does it, now that's the really hard part.

And if Assad or some other tyrant uses nuclear weapons, do we respond to that? and how do we respond?
I admit, I have no answers.

[Le Taz Hot]

61. I'm more cynical.

I think he wouldn't have called for a vote if he didn't already know how the vote will go down. You ALWAYS count noses before bringing anything to Congress. I'd love to wrong, especially now.

[Waiting For Everyman]

63. Surprised and glad to see

even a small step away from the imperial presidency. Our system is designed to lessen mistakes, and when we practice it as designed, there are fewer of them.

Two things we need a lot more of: inclusiveness and transparency.

[G_j]

65. Agreed, and it shows that Obama is not Bush

I am very critical of Obama, but to be clear, I've never seen the two as equal.

[Zorra]

68. +1 nt

[Zorra]

69. +1 well said nt

[suffragette]

74. As someone whose Democratic representative was calling for him to do this, I agree and support

this decision.

And I appreciate that Jim McDermott was one of those urging Obama to do this.

http://mcdermott.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=708:mcdermott-speaks-on-american-military-action-in-syria-&catid=25:press-releases&Itemid=20