10 year old girl who died after fighting a classmate over a boy ruled a HOMICIDE!!

[bigdarryl]

I can tell you from experience that everybody that was at this fight life will be altered for the rest of there lives this is VERY TRAGIC!! a similar incident happened about 31 years ago when I was just 21 me and a bunch friends had been drinking and two of the friends got in an argument and ended up fighting each other one guy was trained in martial arts and kicked the other guy in the head with a roundhouse kick he ended up in a coma and died three days later the guys family blamed EVERYBODY that was there for not breaking it up the guy ended up doing serious prison time for homicide these kids are even much younger than I was so all of them especially the girl who fought the deceased girl will be affected http://www.presstelegram.com/breakingnews/ci_20054975

[pitohui]

1. yea, you get in a fight and someone dies, it's a homicide

i can't see how it can be ruled any other way

i wised up and stopped getting into fights before i got myself into serious trouble, the best day to learn to control your temper and stop getting into stupid fights over bullshit was yesterday

it's tragic but if you hit someone hard enough to make them dead, you have to pay some price no matter what your age (unless it was self defense or defense of another person and fighting over a boy is something you know going in that it's wrong and you shouldn't be doing it)

a 10 yr old who can hit hard enough to kill is a dangerous person, even if she is a girl, and it is clear she can't control her temper, so she has to be in some kind of custodial situation

what else can you do? let her keep fighting and injuring others until she is some random number age that you can approve of?

[Chemisse]

2. Arresting an 11-year-old over this is ridiculous.

Kids have fights all the time; this is nothing new. I remember girls talking about planning a fight several times when I was in junior high school (decades ago).

It looks like the death of the girl was rather a freak occurrence. There is no indication that the other child did anything that would be expected to cause a lethal injury. Sometimes, what would seem to be a minor injury to the brain can trigger bleeding that can cause massive damage.

It's horribly sad, but exacting revenge on a child - who is likely already traumatized with guilt - is simply barbaric.

Maybe there is something we don't know, but I can't imagine a jury or judge would convict. Perhaps the arrest is a response to the publicity about it.

[pitohui]

3. it's always a freak occurrence

if you hit someone and they die, instead of just stomping off in a huff, if they're 19 it's a tragedy, if they're 39, it's a tragedy

any time you hit someone you're gambling, any time

it's a shame that a 10 year old lost the gamble, but you can't say, "oh well, too bad, so sad," to the family that lost a child and do nothing to punish the person who beat up their kid AND KILLED HER

i was in fights, i didn't just talk, and believe you me i'm well aware that i'm lucky it didn't lead to tragedy, yes, most of the time, it doesn't lead to you pop someone and they go into a coma and die, but plenty of times it DOES lead to more fights and now the boys get involved, or someone with a gun gets involved, and it keeps blowing up into something with more and more potential for tragedy

bottom line -- kids shouldn't be fighting, except for self defense, when i did it, i knew i was wrong, if she's 10 or 11, yes, she knows it was wrong, and she can't possibly expect to walk after KILLING someone, whether she feels horrible or not if she got a pass on manslaughter it would really screw up her head for life

she won't go to an adult prison, that's just silly, but there does need to be consequences if only to provide justice to the victim's family

you can't say that the other girl's death was a freak occurence and they just have to eat it

[snagglepuss]

5. The fight lasted one minute according to witnesses and

"no weapons were used in the fight, which lasted about a minute, neither girl was knocked to the ground and both of them walked away from the fight, Deputy Police Chief Robert Luna said at a press conference held Saturday.

And the victim had no visible signs of trauma."

How can a one minute fight, with no weapons or injury be a homicide? That is just crazy. This is a tragic situation but hardly homicide.

[leftyohiolib]

12. no weapons were used in the fight.... a balled up fist IS a weapon as you can see its capable of

killing. it is tragic but one person killing another even accidentally is homicide

[snagglepuss]

13. A man's fist may be a weapon but not the fist of an 11 yr old girl.

Unless someone produces evidences that shows the amt of force in her fist, I will continue to think that idea is preposterous especially when you considered kids aren't that fragile. Kids have been having fists fights from time immemorial and lived.

[leftyohiolib]

16. well it is and that is evidenced in a girl lying in a morgue. sexism aside, a fist is a fist

and this 11 y.o. used that weapon to kill someone

[snagglepuss]

17. Sexism? You can't be serious. Maybe you are if you think young girls

have the physical force to kill people with their fist within a minute. How have kids survived centuries of fist fighting?
I am not in any way condoning the fight and I think she should face consequences but I don't think she should be charged with homicide.

[leftyohiolib]

25. blunt force trauma, resulting in a blood clot in the brain that killed her. is that serious enough?

yes it is easy to kill someone, even for an eleven yer old. you just have to catch them in the right spot and it appears that this killer did. eleven year old kids are still growing and that makes them fragile. she killed someone so yes she should be charged. death penalty- no life in prison-no but she cant just say sorry and call it a day.unless it was self-defense, other wise she needs to serve.

[morningfog]

18. They haven't released the cause of death yet.

We don't know what killed her, only that it was ruled a homicide.

[Lurks Often]

24. They released the cause of death

blunt force trauma, resulting in a blood clot in the brain that killed her.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GIRLS_FIGHT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-27-20-52-32

[Mojorabbit]

55. I think I read she had symptoms of some sort before the fight?

I am too ill to be coherent enough to search for the thread

[ManiacJoe]

42. You are probably confused on the definition of homicide.

How can a one minute fight, with no weapons or injury be a homicide? That is just crazy. This is a tragic situation but hardly homicide.

Homicide is the killing of a human by another human. You are probably thinking of murder, which is just one subdivision of homicide.

[snagglepuss]

50. Thanks for that clarification.

[Chemisse]

33. So should the boys who prevented others from stopping the fight

be charged with accessory to murder?

Unless this child acted in a particularly brutal manner which could have been expected to result in serious harm, I don't see why she should be charged.

Under your rationale, somebody must pay a price to assuage the family of the victim. I somehow doubt this is going to make them live happily ever after.

[Selatius]

41. The District Attorney has not announced if charges were pending. However, ...

it was the coroner who ruled the death as a homicide, blunt force trauma. It's up to the DA to decide what to do. At best, the child could be confined to juvenile detention for the crime, not prison.

[surrealAmerican]

4. The article seems to say that she hasn't been arrested.

There's too much missing information to figure this one out.

[morningfog]

6. No one has been arrested yet.

[slackmaster]

19. Not nearly as ridiculous as not arresting her would be

She needs to be held accountable for her actions.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

44. this is ridiculous

nice to see someone else thinks as much, too.

[jsmirman]

8. That's your takeaway from a tragedy that left a 10 year old girl dead?

Really? That's what you're going to go with?

[kestrel91316]

9. My question: was the girl who died the one who started it by bullying

(news mentioned it was a chronic bullying situation) or the one who was defending herself against bullying.

I know who I'm hoping it is.

[leftyohiolib]

27. if she was the bully did she deserve to die?

[Raine]

30. I'm in Los Angeles, it's been all over the local news here. The last I heard the girl who is dead

was bullied, she had written in her diary about being bullied.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. That is what the local M$M was reporting

[Proles]

10. I don't really have time to read the article in depth, but how does someone

die in a fist fight between two young girls? Didn't the teachers attempt to break it up before it got worse?

In any case, I suppose it's technically involuntary manslaughter... but its silly that a non-fatal fist fight results in a slap on the wrist, and something like this can turn into something so much more serious.

[surrealAmerican]

29. That's why I think we're missing important information here.

It was a fistfight between children that lasted about a minute. No weapons were involved, and nobody was knocked over.

[pacalo]

32. From the link in post #24 by Lurks Often...

Doctors say head injuries suffered in fistfights can often lead to delayed bleeding when a punch results in a torn vein. That can then lead to a clot when blood collects on the surface of the brain.

(...)

Symptoms - such as headache, nausea, lethargy - may not set in for hours and people can mistakenly think that they're fine, Black said.

Typically, he said, the hit to the head would have to be fairly significant to cause a blood clot and often involves the head hitting walls or the ground, but a punch is enough.

"You can certainly get enough of an impact to get enough movement in the brain by a fist to tear a vein, if it's in the right location," Black said.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GIRLS_FIGHT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-27-20-52-32

[Happyhippychick]

11. How can a 10 year old be charged with any felony? I thought that wasn't possible.

[NutmegYankee]

14. When did humans get so fragile?

I live in the countryside now because I grew up in a large city and want nothing of the life. And part of that life was beating the hell out of each other. But I never saw anyone die. Blood, bruises, gashes, some broken bones, but no deaths.

[Chemisse]

34. That's why I think it is a freak accident, caused by ordinarily nonlethal behavior.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. Does not matter

See the post about Eggshell Skull Doctrine

[Lurks Often]

15. Of course it was ruled a homicide

From dictionary.law.com, emphisis in bold is mine:

homicide:
n. the killing of a human being due to the act or omission of another. Included among homicides are murder and manslaughter, but not all homicides are a crime, particularly when there is a lack of criminal intent. Non-criminal homicides include killing in self-defense, a misadventure like a hunting accident or automobile wreck without a violation of law like reckless driving, or legal (government) execution. Suicide is a homicide, but in most cases there is no one to prosecute if the suicide is successful. Assisting or attempting suicide can be a crime.

Since the 10 year old died as a result of injuries inflicted by the 11 year old, medically the coroner had to rule it a homicide. That does not mean there was intent or that the 11 year old will be charged.

[snagglepuss]

20. Thanks for the clarification. I thought homicide meant killing with intent.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. I remember the old NASH categories

Natural
Accidental
Suicide
Homicide

[frylock]

21. i really do enjoy watching all the authoritarian types getting thier boxers in a bunch..

because, gawddammit, someone has to pay the penalty for this. who gives a fuck if it was accidental and two families lives have been ruined because of this. i won't sleep unless i know that little 11 year old girl is doing hard fucking time.

[ZombieHorde]

23. Who are these authoritarians?

I don't see anyone making those claims.

[leftyohiolib]

26. how generous of you to forgive the killer of someone elses child. im sure the parents of the dead

child will rest easy knowing that you say "let's call it even." my guess is the lives of the family of the dead child is a whole lot more ruined than the one that lived. why not save your lecture and presumptions about the kind of people commenting on this tragedy since you dont know the people you're talking about.

[Doremus]

28. Yes, it's rather sickening isn't it.

Shades of gray never intrude on a hardliner's joy in seeking revenge.

[Chemisse]

35. I wish I COULD enjoy it. I think it is sickening that so many people

are driven by their most base and primitive emotions.

[WolverineDG]

46. Always happens

unless, of course, the accused is a member of a favored group, then the howls would be about how unfair/racist/bigoted the authorities were being.

[ZombieHorde]

22. Of course it's homicide. What else would we call beating someone to death?

The homicide label is not a matter of morality, it is a matter of vocabulary.

[Raine]

31. I guess I was lucky, when I was in high school I watched

many fights. The buzz would always around that "so in so" was going to fight after school and the crowd would follow along. The girl fights were always the most popular. Luckily no one was badly injuried or killed.

[Chemisse]

36. Indeed. It has been going on forever.

Rarely are they brutal affairs, and it is devastatingly bad luck that this child suffered a clot in the brain.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. I gather some of the posters in this thread have never heard of the Eggshell Skull Doctrine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

Under it, if the other child can be shown to be the aggressor and planned the attack, its murder...

[Chemisse]

49. Interesting, thanks.

I guess that makes it very clear.

I still hope the child is treated gently. When kids are that young, adults must take shoulder some of the blame.

[snagglepuss]

51. Very enlightening. I've always assumed a pre-existing condition would lessen a charge

in situations where there was no intent to commit murder. Thanks for posting.

[laundry_queen]

53. Was going to post about that

learned it in my law class but I'm in Canada so wasn't sure it applied in the US and am in the middle of midterms right now and was too lazy to look it up

This actually happened to my best friend's boyfriend when we were in high school. He was punched in the face by some guy, who was an amateur boxer and trying to crash the party. He died almost instantly. His skull literally crumbled into his brain. The defense planted stories in the paper about how this wasn't intentional and that the victim had a condition the boxer couldn't possibly have known about. But in court, they couldn't use that defense (plus, the judge said that as a boxer, he was probably extra knowledgeable about the power of a punch) and the boxer guy was found guilty. I can't remember what the charge was though, it was so long ago. It was very sad. My friend's boyfriend was such a nice guy. It always seemed to happen to the nice guys.

[alp227]

40. another article

Death of 10-year-old involved in school fight declared a homicide

Officials have ruled the death of a 10-year-old girl who got into a fight last week to be a homicide, authorities said Monday.

Joanna Ramos, a fifth-grade student at Willard Elementary School, died of blunt force trauma to the head six hours after an altercation with a female classmate that lasted less than a minute, said Long Beach Police spokesman Sgt. Rico Fernandez.

Wow. Let's not pretend we all were emotionally immature at age 10 and thus couldn't control aggression well, but for elementary school kids to be able to assault each other to such a deadly level? Gotta wonder what's going on in their community that would influence them. Broken homes? Domestic violence? Gangs? I mean they're getting in FIGHTS over BOYS at this age...the loss of innocence and obedience gets to younger ages each generation huh?

[liberalhistorian]

52. Sorry, but I'm in my forties and this was nothing new when

I was that age nearly forty years ago. Kids would get in such fights for a lot less than a boy, and I was in a nice middle class neighborhood. Not everything is the result of pathology, and it's not a matter of "kids these days so much worse than us" or similar sentiments. Hell, I was unpopular and can remember being beaten up a couple times at that age with other kids laughing. Again, we're talking forty years ago.

Fights like this were and are more common than people think, it's just that you don't hear about them unless something freak occurs, like in this case. And it IS freak. I have no doubt that the hitter not only certainly had no intention of killing her, but also it never occured to anyone there that that could happen. All these people here screaming for the child's blood are sickening. She's TEN years old, not an adult with adult thinking capacities. What the fuck do you want done with her, fry her in the chair? She's even too young for most juvenile reformatories, and those places only create more hardened teenage criminals. I know, 'cause my mom taught in one for years.

What IS getting to younger ages each generation is less and less understanding on the part of adults that children don't think like adults and should not be criminalized at young ages.

[Art_from_Ark]

54. When I was in 4th grade,

around the same time as you, my "girlfriend" announced one day that she had met some boy in another class and she couldn't decide which one of us she liked better. So she "arranged" for us to duke it out on the playground after school. Upon meeting my rival, I said, "Hey, if you want her to be your girlfriend, that's fine with me". And he replied, "I was about to say the same thing to you!"

We shook hands and parted friends.

[pipoman]

43. Few people realize

how many people die each year from injuries inflicted with hands and feet..around 1,000 people per year in the US...

[WolverineDG]

45. How can an 11 year old form the intent necessary to commit homicide?

what are they going to do? try her as an adult & throw her in jail for the rest of her life?

[ManiacJoe]

47. You are confusing murder with homicide.

Homicide is the killing of a human by another human. Murder is just one subdivision of homicide.