Heat from House Democrats on WH's Syria Conference Call

[bigtree]

tweeted by, Jon Passantino ‏@passantino 12m
Kerry got into "heated exchange" with House Dem during conference call on Syria http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/john-kerry-to-democrats-munich-moment-96165.html …


____ Rep. Rick Nolan (D-Minn.) challenged the evidence that Obama administration officials have presented on the reported use of chemical weapons by Assad’s force against Syrian civilians. U.S. intelligence officials and Syrian rebel groups claim that more than 1,000 Syrian died in that attack, including hundreds of children.

Nolan and Kerry got into a “heated exchange,” according to multiple sources on the call. Nolan compared Syria to Vietnam, which angered Kerry, who was wounded during that conflict.

In a statement afterward, Nolan said the call further convinced him to not support the president’s plan, and he added that Assad should be tried in an international court.

“After a three-hour classified briefing, and taking time to read all the classified documents, what I have heard and read has only served to convince me more than ever of the folly and danger of getting America involved in the Syrian civil war,” Nolan said. “I will vote and work against President Obama’s request for open-ended authority to launch military strikes against the Syrian army.”

read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/john-kerry-to-democrats-munich-moment-96165.html

[Catherina]

1. Thank you Rick Nolan! Exactly. "Should be tried in an international court"

along with any criminals who supplied weapons and chemicals in an internal civil war, not some secret NATO/Qatar/Saudi Arabia/Pipeline court.

[sabrina 1]

58. Along with George Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Wolfowitz and the band of torture memo writers who are

wanted in other countries but are being protected by this government, for prosecution.

Why do we have laws and courts and treaties and agreements if we don't use them?

Let's round up all the War Criminals and start applying the rule of law.

[Catherina]

64. Yes. I don't support taking anyone to the Interntll Court until the most important world criminals

are rounded up and dealt with. No immunity for any war crimes. No hiding behind "Might makes right".

[dflprincess]

84. Why use the courts when it's so much faster to lob some bombs at them?

But we'll only "punish" their war criminals, ours are to be left alone because prosecuting them could set a very dangerous precedent. Besides, most of them have come out supporting Obama in this latest sideshow. -- They're getting the old PNAC band together again.

[fasttense]

96. The rush to get involved in Syria is how the American Government is

going to start a war with IRAN. This is NOT about Syria it is about IRAN and the OIL they have.

[BainsBane]

2. Nolan is the representative from Northern Minnesota

Along the North Shore of Lake Superior, home to the lovely Grand Marais and Cook County, the most Democratic county in deep blue Minnesota.

[B Calm]

48. I have always wanted to live in his district. It's the land of Sky Blue Water!!

[BainsBane]

49. I would love to live up there

It's so beautiful.

[Maedhros]

81. In tribute:

[B Calm]

88. Oh thank you, I loved those beer commercials when I was a kid.

[Rockyj]

57. Is that area near white earth reservation?

If so that's a pretty red neck area I'm surprised they elected a democrat to represent them.

[BainsBane]

68. no, but it does take in part of the iron range

This is White Earth

And that district is Republican, Colin Peterson.

[Autumn]

3. Recommended. Very happy to hear this.

[morningfog]

4. Rep. Nolan has my support!

Telling that he says this even after a 3 hour meeting with the SoS, including a heated exchange. Kerry and Obama haven't convinced me that this is a good idea, or legal. Nolan heard much more than I am privy to and still isn't convinced.

[iandhr]

5. K&R

But I think the Lebanon Civil war is a better analogy then Vietnam.

[HardTimes99]

10. Agreed. Excellent point about Lebanon - nt

[Savannahmann]

6. Well done sir.

[Jefferson23]

7. It's not just that he will vote no, it is that he is challenging the evidence to be as strong

and exclusive to Assad. Wow. Let the administration answer more questions, and
I do hope more like him are as prepared to review everything.

on edit for clarity.

[polichick]

8. "Assad should be tried in an international court." Yes...

and so should Bush, Cheney & Co.

[Sand Wind]

76. Right, lets post a registered letter to Assad to ask him to come to the court.

If he refuse, let's send a subpoena to force his to come to his judgment. Also, we should not forget to send him a open editorial asking his to not gaz his own people, because that's bad.

Then we can go to drink our green tea in good conscience.

[polichick]

77. It's not up to us - there's an int'l court and UN for just such a purpose...

Nobody made the U.S. God - or the judge of the world - or the police of the world.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

9. Comparing Syria to Vietnam angered Kerry? Solution = don't push us into another optional war.

We've had enough optional wars.

[Link Speed]

30. I was wounded in Vietnam and I applaud Mr Nolan

Let's get the facts.

Remember the Gulf of Tonkin?

[karynnj]

59. Are you saying that Assad did not gas a large number of people?

I assume that you remember that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was distorted by Johnson - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

[Link Speed]

71. I don't care who did it

It's not our problem.

I am fully aware of the facts regarding Tonkin and what happened in the aftermath. That shit killed 43 of my buddies. I wasted 39 months of my life in Vietnam. We had no business there, either. BP got the oil in the Gulf.

[John2]

80. There it goes again!

I don't think many people believe the evidence which some have so much faith in. I certainly don't believe the evidence and the people giving it to you. Are you saying the rebels through their supporters did not gas a lot of people? This is tic for tac. He said, she said, and pointing fingers. I do not believe Assad gassed or had the need to gas a lot of people, but I do believe the rebels through some of their supporters gased and needed to gas a lot of people to get the U.S. to attack. I also believe from Mr Obama's continued actions and words, he as much encouraged the rebels to give him an excuse for War. He has taken this stance for two years now and thinks nobody will have the audacity to challenge him, just because he won re-election. It don't work that way buddy. I'm challenging him and I voted for him twice. He has definitely lost my support and I will encourage my friends too and anybody I talk to. And to Sand Wind, Welcome to America buddy. This is not tunisia! I'm pretty pissed off!

[Maedhros]

82. The evidence claiming Assad was responsible is not definitive.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/18559-how-intelligence-was-twisted-to-support-an-attack-on-syria

People are jumping on this bandwagon because they really want to trust the Administration, but the case against Assad has many holes.

We need to wait until the UN inspectors conclude their investigation and release their findings. At this point, chemical weapon experts aren't even convinced that the agent was nerve gas:

The symptoms of a nerve agent attack are clear-cut: Soon after initial symptoms of tightness of chest, pinpoint pupils and running nose, the victim begins to vomit and to defecate and urinate uncontrollably, followed by twitching and jerking. Ultimately, the victim becomes comatose and suffocates in a series of convulsive spasms. The symptoms shown in dozens of videos of victims being treated in medical centers in Ghouta, however, are quite different. In an interview with Truthout, Dan Kaszeta, a specialist on chemical, biological and radiological weapons who has advised the White House on those issues, pointed out that a nerve gas attack would have been accompanied by a pattern of symptoms that are not shown in the videos posted online. "There should be more or less universal vomiting," Kaszeta said. But he did not see any vomiting or evidence of such vomiting on the clothing or on the floor in any of the videos he saw. Stephen G. Johnson, a chemical weapons forensics expert at Cranfield University in the United Kingdom, noticed the same thing. "Why aren't more people vomiting?" he asked Truthout in an interview.

Experts noticed yet another anomaly: The number of those treated who survived far outnumbered the dead, contrary to what would be expected in a nerve gas attack. Dr. Ghazwan Bwidany told CBS news August 24 that his mobile medical unit had treated 900 people after the attack and that 70 had died. Medecins Sans Frontieres reported that 3,600 patients had been treated at hospitals in the area of the attack and that 355 had died. Such ratios of survivors to dead were the opposite of what chemical weapons specialists would have expected from a nerve gas attack. Kaszeta told Truthout that the "most nagging doubt" he had about the assumption that a nerve gas attack had taken place is the roughly 10-to-1 ratio of total number treated to the dead. "The proportions are all wrong," he said. "There should be more dead people." Johnson agreed. In an actual nerve gas attack, he said, "You'd get some survivors, but it would be very low. This [is] a very low level of lethality."

[DeSwiss]

37. Bingo!

Ed McMahon: ''Oh Carnac The Magnificent, mystical sage that you are -- I hold in my hands a letter that has been hermetically-sealed and placed inside a mayonnaise jar, held on Funk and Wagnall's back porch until NOON TODAY! NO ONE! No one has seen the contents of this letter. But you with your strange and mysterious powers of divination shall reveal to us their contents without opening it.'' {hands him the letter}

Carnac The Magnificent: {holds letter to his head and closes his eyes} ''I've seen this movie before.''

Ed McMahon: {annoyingly repeating} ''I've seen this movie before.''

Carnac The Magnificent: {glares at Ed, then says} ''What's the first thing that came into your mind when they said Assad had used weapons of mass destruction on his own people.''

[DallasNE]

43. Good One

And both have "sad" as part of their name -- one at the start and the other at the end.

[bvar22]

11. HooRay for a Voice of Sanity!!!

I will gladly join this march!

--bvar22

[1-Old-Man]

12. "Tried in an International Court", now that's a novel idea.

[Supersedeas]

89. He sounds like a Constitutional Law professor

[Le Taz Hot]

13. Man, I'm hoping more Congresscritters

will take this pledge, either R or D, I don't care.

[DeSwiss]

14. They have no evidence just bullshit like always.

- Thank you Rep. Dolan for standing up against these goddamned lies and the mouths they ooze out of.

K&R

[vaberella]

26. You are saying that chemical weapons were not used on Syrians by they're own Gov.?

n/t

[DeSwiss]

33. No.

I'm saying they can't prove it.

I'm also saying that we have no authority to do a damned thing even if it's true.

I'm saying that killing women and children by drones is no different than gassing them.

That's what I'm saying.

[vaberella]

92. You should have said that.

Because now you're more clear.

[DeSwiss]

94. I should have said?

- Maybe you should have asked, instead of assuming......

[AnotherMcIntosh]

38. When a post starts with "You are saying ...," that's a good indication that the post

is not an accurate representation of what was actual said but a misrepresentation of what was said.

A good indication of someone creating a straw-man.

[vaberella]

90. You might say that. Or the person is clarifying an interpretation on a stream of words. n/t

[idwiyo]

42. You know something even UN inspectors don't know? Please, do post it here!

[vaberella]

91. I'm asking a question. I don't know.

The poster gave me the impression they do know.

[blazeKing]

54. Yes

The al Qaeda rebels used chemical weapons 3 previous times, they were caught. Western intelligence is being manipulated again because western intelligence is political cover for warmongers, it's not intelligence.

[forestpath]

15. K&R I hope he has lots of company.

[MotherPetrie]

16. GOOD.

[jwirr]

17. Thank you Senator, was glad to see you in our Labor Day Parade. You are doing great in Congress.

[bigtree]

19. I see he was in D.C. yesterday

Sep 1, 2013
Latest Update
Happy Labor Day Weekend!

While there is no place I would rather be than home in Minnesota, spending this time with friends, neighbors and working families, I have been called back to Washington by the Democratic leadership for classified briefings on the rapidly escalating crisis in Syria, and the critical question of American military involvement in that troubled land.

I want you to know that I am vehemently opposed to a military strike that would clearly be an act of war against Syria, especially under such tragic yet confusing circumstances as to who is responsible for the use of chemical weapons. Beyond the potential for escalating the conflict and the killing, we risk danger to our ally Israel, involvement by the Russians and the Iranians, and blowback to the United States by radical groups operating in the region.

Once and for all, we need to end these wars of choice and nation building abroad, where we are neither wanted nor needed, and start rebuilding America and rebuilding the middle class with good-paying jobs revitalizing our roads, bridges, highways, airports, parks, education, and public buildings.

On this Labor Day weekend, the rich are still getting richer, the poor are still getting poorer, and the middle class is still getting crushed . . .


more: http://nolan.house.gov/media-center/latest-update/rep-nolan-called-back-to-dc-for-briefing-on-syria

[cantbeserious]

18. Kick And Recommend

eom

[grahamhgreen]

20. Kick

[leftstreet]

21. DURec

[pjt7]

22. Way to go Rep Nolan

Maybe he should be given Obama's Nobel Peace Prize.

[totodeinhere]

23. I just fired off an email to Rep. Nolan thanking him for his stand on this issue

and urging him to hang tough against what will probably be tremendous pressure to change his position.

I really think that we have a good chance to derail this in the House. IMO a coalition of liberal Democrats and Tea Party Republicans will go against the leadership of both parties and defeat it. I don't like having to depend on support from the Tea Party but this issue is so important that I would accept support from the devil himself if necessary.

[ChaoticTrilby]

24. Thank you, Rep Nolan.

Congress needs more of that kind of clarity of thought and ability to learn from history.

[AzDar]

25. K & R

[Rene]

27. What a wimp coward Nolan is....he should watch more of those chem weapon videos

and propose what HE would do to retaliate and prevent ANY other despot from using those weapons on ANY people. That Chem weapon type of attack has to stop HERE AND NOW. I don't care what country it happened in........but they do have video of the shells in Syria....reaction should be swift and targetted....against anyone who did that heinous act. Any leader/military thinking of using those weapons should be on notice that they well be annihalated. Nolan should grow a set....what a wimp.

[Le Taz Hot]

29. There are videos of victims of Agent Orange

as well as victims of the chemical weapons that Saddam used against the Kurds -- gas that WE SUPPLIED them. If you want to point guns at a country with a LONG history of chemical weapons use, you might want to duck, there, Rambo.

[pjt7]

31. Almost 1,000 Iraqi's

were killed this month in August. Got that?

You are insane to think we will stop killings w/ US bombs.

We will increase the killings just like in Iraq & Libya.

[Supersedeas]

45. the message that just keeps on giving and giving and giving

just sending a message that our bombs are betters than yours?

[DeSwiss]

34. No, the wimp is the one who kills babies with drones. n/t

[Kermitt Gribble]

39. Retaliate?

Unless you have a different definition of the word, we (USA) were not attacked or threatened in any way, shape or form. We have no business getting involved in this issue.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

40. No, "a wimp coward" is someone who cheers on another optional war and will neither sign

up themselves nor - if they are otherwise too sick, lame, or lazy, - drive a relative down to a recruiter's office so that they can sign up.

If you want to cheer on another war, that is your solution.

[pinboy3niner]

41. Nolan showed moral courage

Discretion is the better part of valor...

Nolan understands something important--that military force is not the right option when it's unlikely to achieve its objectives and carries grave risks of causing greater human harm and of leading to further escalation with even more carnage.

[Enthusiast]

47. Grow a set? Wimp?

The point is, many Americans don't believe the official story. We are tired of all the lies. Calling names doesn't work.

Nolan is courageous for taking this stand.

[Union Scribe]

50. Look out. We got a badass over here. nt

[polichick]

55. It's easy to bomb people - sort of WIMPY.

[dkf]

28. The good guy/gal Dems are still out there!

Thank god!!!!

And yes, this needs to go to an international court for evidence in front of the world. The last thing we need is to go in again with bad intel.

[Jack Rabbit]

32. Minnesota DUers: Is Nolan related to the late Gene McCarthy?

He bears something of a resemblance.

[dflprincess]

44. Not that I've ever heard

and I'm sure it would have come up at some time or another.

[Jack Rabbit]

74. Thank you

If no one has said anything about it, then the answer must be no.

Nevertheless, Gene McCarthy must be looking down and smiling at Nolan in approval.

[dflprincess]

83. Not surprisingly Nolan was a supporter of McCarthy in 1968.

A move that could have killed his political career. Remember, Hubert Humphrey was also running that year and I knew people who were bitter about the McCarthy supporters until the day they died (there was a real old DFLer/young DFLer rift that year). As it was the McCarthy people were incredibly well organized and made a great showing in the state's precinct caucuses. It should have sent Humphrey the message that continued support of Johnson's Vietnam policy was not a wise way to go.

I was only 15 that year and leaned more to Bobby Kennedy.

[MuseRider]

35. Thank you Rep. Nolan.

Stay strong.

[nashville_brook]

36. i hope there's Yoga available in the congressional office buildings

because these new backbones the Dems are finding are going to need to stay limber.

[freshwest]

46. Debate and fighting over this is good. Thanks Obama for giving the people a voice on this. Congress,

it's time to do your thing!

[mac56]

51. My Congressman. Here in the Minnesota Fighting Eighth.

[L0oniX]

52. Well ...that's one good person who isn't going to be knee jerked into this shit. n/t

[mike_c]

53. thank you, Senator!

eom

[dflprincess]

85. He's a rep (Minnesota's 8th district)

(though I agree with your sentiment)

Sadly, neither of our Senators (Klobuchar, Franken) have been brave enough to stand with him.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

56. An example of a proper response --

May sanity prevail.

[Bluenorthwest]

60. I used to respect John Kerry in spite of his Iraq war boosterism and votes but now his hubris

makes me sick. He and the other Iraq war makers are not proper conduits for any other calls to action. If they are correct and we 'must act' then all the worse that the only voices they have in the administration to convince us are people who were so murderously wrong about Iraq. Too bad Obama ignored the people who were correct about Iraq and promoted all the mediocre war makers. Not to mention the fact that we STILL have not had a Democrat heading Defense, it is an unbroken chain from Rummy through Gates to Hagel of Republicans who voted for the Iraq War and funded it unflinchingly.
"I have never been right about a war before, in fact few humans have ever been so wrong about such important decisions as I have been. But you must believe me today. For the children."
Hubris. The elevation of mediocrity and the punishment of excellence is why America is failing.

[Ocelot]

62. Kerry lives the breezy life of the gilded .1%

He's existed in a bubble for quite some time now. I'm sorry that Theresa is not well and he's had some kind of breakdown, or if the NSA is blackmailing him...but neither of those things is an excuse for the despicable lies he's been peddling. And sorry, if there's no real evidence, then Kerry IS lying.

[Ocelot]

61. I'm still waiting to see if there's ANY evidence

Where's the incontrovertible link between the attacks and Assad? It appears the Emperor has no clothes, because so far the Emperor hasn't made his case in the slightest.

Even if there WAS an incontrovertible link I would still adamantly support NOT striking Syria. What is needed, as Jimmy Carter rightly points out, is a PEACE PROCESS. US military strikes would exponentially increase the suffering of innocent Syrians. But Obama and Saudi Arabia are drooling over Syria's oil, so we're supposed to play nudge-nudge, wink-wink with them.

I will actively support primarying the hell out of my Representative if he votes to support this strike. We will not forget those who do.

[hughee99]

63. I'm surprised that being "talked down to" for 3 hours by Sec. Kerry

wasn't convincing enough to give the president a blank check on Syria.

Good for Rep. Nolan!

[think_critically]

65. This is all a massive head fake

At first I couldn't understand the whole go to congress first deal and then I thought I did b/c I though Obama looked at polls and wanted support from congress. After listening to his latest statements though regarding degrading Syria's military and the fact that an aircraft carrier is on the way to the area now, and that he let congress wait until the 9th for a vote, I'm convinced that he's doing this so that he can increase the military presence in the region while nobody is watching. While the media is obsessing over congress I do believe that they are secretly laying the ground war for a much more serious attack than first mentioned. Hell the US and Israel just tested long range missiles in the Mediterranean. You think that didn't require a lot of preparation. Obama is a lot of things but stupid is not one of them.

[GoneFishin]

67. Thank you Rick Nolan! nt

[JRLeft]

69. I to support Assad being tried.

[zipplewrath]

72. Wage law enforcement

Time to stop waging war and start waging some law enforcement. Go to the Hauge. Put some folks on trial. Have a jury.

[JRLeft]

73. I support this before Assad but support Assad's being

tried without US involvement.

[CrispyQ]

70. Thanks you Rep. Nolan.

I'm going to encourage my rep to stand with Rep. Nolan.

[Sand Wind]

75. Assad should be tried in an international court. HOW ???

Remember : US not the Poooolice of the world ....

Maybe you should calmly ask Assad to not do it again, and come to the court so he can have a defense of his case....

[blackspade]

78. Good.

Bombing will only lead to more death.

[99th_Monkey]

79. Yes, take Assad to the Hague, or most appropriate International Court. No Bombing Syria! ~nt

[countmyvote4real]

86. Thank you Congressman Rick Nolan

"Assad should be tried in an international court."

[silvershadow]

87. Well, good. I'm glad they were able to get it out their systems. Now, watch this.

[malaise]

93. Good

Rec

[Cliff Arnebeck]

95. Obama -- a clever "fool"

Obama is not a fool. He is playing one, so the attack will get voted down without getting our President assassinated.