France pulls back on supporting strike, Kerry fails to convince EU counterparts

[cali]

Secretary of State John Kerry failed to sway his European counterparts on the urgency of a U.S.-led military strike to halt the use of chemical weapons in Syria’s more than two-year civil war.

France, the principal U.S. ally in a possible assault, slowed its march to a confrontation by backing a European Union appeal to put off an armed response until the United Nations delivers a report on last month’s use of chemical agents in a massacre near Damascus.

“The EU underscores at the same time the need to move forward with addressing the Syrian crisis through the UN process,” the 28-nation bloc’s foreign-policy chief Catherine Ashton told reporters after EU foreign ministers met Kerry in Vilnius, Lithuania.

U.S. setbacks in securing international backing for targeted strikes on Syria’s war-making capability were matched by President Barack Obama’s trouble at home in persuading Congress to authorize an American intervention.

<snip>
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-07/kerry-fails-to-sway-european-skeptics-on-urgency-of-syria-strike.html

Two-thirds of French oppose Syria action: poll
http://www.france24.com/en/20130907-two-thirds-french-oppose-syria-action-poll


European Union Wants U.N. Report Before Any Military Action in Syria

The European Union said Saturday that a military strike against Syria should be put off until United Nations inspectors submit a preliminary report on a deadly chemical weapons attack near the Syrian capital, Damascus.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/world/europe/european-union-wants-un-report-before-any-military-action-in-syria.html?_r=0

[dipsydoodle]

1. Two-thirds of French oppose Syria action: poll

That is what accounts for Hollande doing a quick backtrack yesterday from full on "lets go for it" to "lets see what the UN has to say".

[David__77]

2. I forecast that French public opinion will swing further against intervention.

Factors will emerge that will make it clear that this would be a very costly intervention, and people will want nothing to do with it.

[Catherina]

3. Oh boy. The rhetoric is going to get more desperate and shrill now

Good morning Cali. Finally some encouraging news for the morning!

[cali]

7. Good Morning, my dear.

I wish I could feel anything but sad about this whole damned thing.

[Coyotl]

10. We have about 1% support for Obama in Oregon now.

[Aerows]

14. And all 18 of them

probably work for defense contractors.

[Coyotl]

24. More people work in the defense industry than support Obama on this one!

[totodeinhere]

34. And it's just not liberal districts like DeFazio's that are saying this.

Opposition is coming from across the political spectrum. Finally we have found something that liberals and conservatives can agree on.

[Catherina]

11. Same here :(

But France pulling back a little is some of the best news I've read all week. I wasn't expecting it this soon because Hollande was fighting his party and the people tooth and nail.

A protest at the White House is about to start. I hope they're listening.

McCain is getting hammered and Kerry's trip to Europe is another big fail. I can't believe how tone deaf they're being.

"I'D HAVE YOU ARRESTED FOR TREASON!"

[Coyotl]

38. That guy is full of bullshit.

[KittyWampus]

27. Well- at some point blaming the rebels for the chemical attack will be put in CT forum.

EU agrees that all indications on Syria chemical attack points to Assad

Source: Washington Post

The European Union agreed on Saturday that the Aug. 21 chemical attack outside Damascus appears to have been the work of Syria’s regime, but that any potential military attack against it should wait for a U.N. inspectors’ report.

After meeting with U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, the EU ministers ended days of division on the issue with a statement saying the available intelligence “seems to indicate strong evidence that the Syrian regime is responsible for these attacks.”

Lithuanian Foreign Minister Linas Linkevicius, who hosted the meeting, put it more bluntly in targeting Syrian President Bashar Assad, speaking of “more and more evidence that the Assad regime is behind all these crimes. We can’t just ignore this.”

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/eu-agrees-that-all-indications-regarding-syria-chemical-attack-points-to-assad/2013/09/07/ffe30420-17b0-11e3-961c-f22d3aaf19ab_story.html

[RetroLounge]

4. Oh, boy, the war-cheerleaders will have a sad

Is there room under the bus for France too?

RL

[Iggo]

22. You kiddin'? France has a reserved spot.

[Jeneral2885]

5. After Libya and Mali

a strike on Syria would further drain France budget.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

6. Dear John please use the UN

more investigations need to take place.

[Barack_America]

8. He had no difficulty convincing EU countries Assad used chemical weapons...

...nobody just seems to want to do anything about it.

It is a pathetically weak argument on their part; they want to wait for the results of an investigation, but are willing to sign a document blaming Assad prior to the conclusion of that investigation.

The truth is they fully believe Assad has used chemical weapons, but are unwilling the address their use be because the Middle East is so volatile.

I can understand that position. Honestly, the precedent was already set by the lack of response when Hussein gassed the Iranians and Kurds.

It's a reasonable (though ethically uncomfortable) position, I just wish they had the fucking courage to admit the were taking it.

[SunSeeker]

15. +1

[KittyWampus]

31. Yes. It's a form of cowardice. Yes, Assad used chemical weapons &amp; is almost assuredly going to again

But we just don't want to intervene at this time.

It's not that hard to do, I am doing it myself.

It's getting harder for the "rebels did it" crowd to keep up their pitch though.

That's their way of remaining in denial.

Perhaps it will eventually be consigned to the CT forum.

[eridani]

54. The US military FUCKING HELPED Hussein gas the Iranians (not sure about the Kurds)

That combined with the huge level of mass murder we have perpetrated against the rest of the world (including cluster bombs, drone strikes, depleted uranium and white phosphorus) since 9/11 totally disqualifies this country from having any valid opinion on the subject.

[ProSense]

9. International joint statement on Syria

THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 6, 2013
Joint Statement on Syria

The Leaders and Representatives of Australia, Canada, France, Italy, Japan, Republic of Korea, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom and the United States of America made the following statement on the margins of the Group of 20 Nations Leader’s Meeting in Saint Petersburg, Russia:

The international norm against the use of chemical weapons is longstanding and universal. The use of chemical weapons anywhere diminishes the security of people everywhere. Left unchallenged, it increases the risk of further use and proliferation of these weapons.

We condemn in the strongest terms the horrific chemical weapons attack in the suburbs of Damascus on August 21st that claimed the lives of so many men, women, and children. The evidence clearly points to the Syrian government being responsible for the attack, which is part of a pattern of chemical weapons use by the regime.

We call for a strong international response to this grave violation of the world’s rules and conscience that will send a clear message that this kind of atrocity can never be repeated. Those who perpetrated these crimes must be held accountable.

Signatories have consistently supported a strong UN Security Council Resolution, given the Security Council's responsibilities to lead the international response, but recognize that the Council remains paralyzed as it has been for two and a half years. The world cannot wait for endless failed processes that can only lead to increased suffering in Syria and regional instability. We support efforts undertaken by the United States and other countries to reinforce the prohibition on the use of chemical weapons.

We commit to supporting longer term international efforts, including through the United Nations, to address the enduring security challenge posed by Syria’s chemical weapons stockpiles. Signatories have also called for the UN fact finding mission to present its results as soon as possible, and for the Security Council to act accordingly.

We condemn in the strongest terms all human rights violations in Syria on all sides. More than 100,000 people have been killed in the conflict, more than 2 million people have become refugees, and approximately 5 million are internally displaced. Recognizing that Syria’s conflict has no military solution, we reaffirm our commitment to seek a peaceful political settlement through full implementation of the 2012 Geneva Communique. We are committed to a political solution which will result in a united, inclusive and democratic Syria.

We have contributed generously to the latest United Nations (UN) and ICRC appeals for humanitarian assistance and will continue to provide support to address the growing humanitarian needs in Syria and their impact on regional countries. We welcome the contributions announced at the meeting of donor countries on the margins of the G20. We call upon all parties to allow humanitarian actors safe and unhindered access to those in need.

European signatories will continue to engage in promoting a common European position.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/06/1236783/-International-joint-statement-on-Syria

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023610073

The most important thing is holding Assad accountable and ensuring that he can't do this again.

[totodeinhere]

17. Nowhere in that statement does it call for unilateral military action on the part of the USA.

Yes a strong international response is needed. My personal preference would be to take Assad to the International Court of Justice. What we don't need is a strong unilateral military resonance on the part of the USA which will most likely backfire anyway.

[ProSense]

20. EU: All info on Syria gas attack points to Assad

EU: All info on Syria gas attack points to Assad
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023617191


"Nowhere in that statement does it call for unilateral military action on the part of the USA."

I didn't say it did. My point is that the international community agrees that Assad did it and must be held accountable.

[totodeinhere]

28. We all agree that if he used chemical weapons on his own people he should be held accountable.

In fact he should be held accountable for the many other atrocities that he committed prior to the chemical attack. And rebels who have committed atrocities need to be held accountable as well. But that doesn't mean that the USA should carry out illegal unilateral military attacks. That is not the solution.

[KittyWampus]

35. excuse me? A huge number of DU'ers are totally unwilling to concede Assad used chemical weapons in

Damascus to kill 1000 civilians.

And they are combing the internet for ANYTHING to back up their conspiracy theories.

Furthermore I find it interesting you use the word "we".

I got my ass handed to me for doing that some short time ago.

[totodeinhere]

43. I said "if" he used chemical weapons. Did Assad personally order the use of the weapons? Or

did a lower level official order it without Assad's knowledge? Or could there be some other explanation? Frankly, given how often our government and our intelligence officials have lied to us in the past I am not sure what to believe.

But if Assad is responsible which is quite possible then he should be held accountable. But it is the international community that has the responsibility to do that, not the USA acting alone.

Regarding the my use of the word "we," apparently it is OK with you since you also used the word.

[Beer Swiller]

45. There's just one teeny weeny problem with your personal preference...

...the United States has refused to submit to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. And Obama has done absolutely nothing to make it so. So it would be kinda hypocritical for an American President to call for Assad being tried at the Hague, would it not?

Don't get me wrong. I think the USA should submit itself to that jurisdiction.

[totodeinhere]

47. I think you are confusing the International Court of Justice with the International Criminal Court.

They are two separate institutions. The ICJ is the judicial branch of the UN. Article 93 of the UN Charter includes all UN members automatically as parties to the Court's statute. In fact one of the Court's members, Joan Donoghue is an American.

However I do agree that this country should become a party to the ICC as well. But knowing that we are not, that's why I recommended the ICJ. You see occasionally you will encounter a poster at DU who knows what he's talking about.

[Beer Swiller]

57. Oops. I stand corrected. I also stand by my basic point, however.

Glad to see someone gets it.

[totodeinhere]

58. Fair enough. n/t

[SunSeeker]

18. That's more strongly worded than the headlines would suggest.

"The evidence clearly points to the Syrian government being responsible for the attack, which is part of a pattern of chemical weapons use by the regime."

[LittleBlue]

12. Kerry is so funny

If you want something done, send Kerry to argue the opposite position. He would still be an assistant DA (or whatever he was) if he wasn't part of the Forbes family.

[blkmusclmachine]

13. Kerry was against it before he was for it.

[durablend]

32. And that was before he was against it again n/t

[ColesCountyDem]

16. Great post, but it really doesn't help me resolve my *personal*; ethical dilemma, sadly.

I'm pleased to see more nations dropping out of the 'WAR! WAR! WAR!" cheer leading squad (honest!), and I'm genuinely glad to see virtually all of those same folks wanting to wait and see what the UN inspectors have to say. That said, my 'gut' tells me that even Russia, China and Iran likely believe that Assad DID, in fact, use chemical agents on his own people, but just won't or can't say so, or even appear to be seen as saying so. That said....

I had a great-uncle who was gassed in WW1, and survived (as an invalid) for almost 36 more years, coughing up his life one chunk of lung at a time. I wasn't born until after he died, but I can never forget the mixture of deep, lingering anger and sadness that infused every word that was spoken about him and what had happened to him, every time his name was mentioned. Yes, his death was a single one, but the horror of it penetrated the entire family, and still does.

I'm not much impressed with the false equivalency-type arguments, frankly. Civil wars are, by their very nature, tragedies writ large. Nor am I dissuaded by the, "It was OK when Saddam was doing it to the Iranians and we were supplying him". Just because the criminal Reagan and Bush administrations did it THEN doesn't make it OK for us to ignore NOW, if you see my point.

I want the UN to answer the question, "Did he or did he not do it?". That matters ENORMOUSLY to me, on a personal level, and if he did, then he deserves to be punished, period, end of sentence. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, "If this (sic) is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel....".

I know my view may well be unpopular, and I well understand why it may be so, but it is how I feel in every cell of my body, and in the marrow of my very bones.

Thanks for taking the time to read my $.02's worth!

*dons flame-retardant gear*

[SunSeeker]

21. Great post. nt

[ColesCountyDem]

23. Thank you!

[cali]

29. Punished how? I understand your sentiment

but punishing Assad could entail more misery for the people of Syria and the region. And we may not know for years, if ever, whether Assad did it. The U.N. investigation didn't include finding out who perpetrated the attack.

There's no doubt that Assad is guilty of ugly crimes against citizens of Syria. I get that you have a personal connection to the use of poison gas, but over 100,000 people have died in the Civil War that Assad is responsible for starting. That's is certainly as terrible as the use of gas to kill hundreds.

[ColesCountyDem]

37. In whatever way is most pointed and painful to his regime.

I'm not advocating cruise missiles or any particular sort of military action, but whatever form the punishment takes, it must HURT Assad and his regime, and badly. Maybe 'pariah nation' status, however that's done, or bringing him up on criminal charges at the Hague? My late brother served in the ME, and I remember him telling me that you can ALWAYS find someone willing to capture/arrest someone else, if the reward is sufficiently large or enticing.

[sabrina 1]

39. Does it make it okay that this very Administration chose to exonerate the Bush War Criminals

who used Cluster Bombs, White Phosphorous (have you seen the latest reports on the babies in Fallujah still being born horribly deformed?) in Iraq? Are Drones killing children better than some other method? .

Whenever we mention those victims, still being born, not just the immediate victims, to those supporting this latest ME 'intervention' they don't seem to care much about THEIR cries for help. And we actually OWE them help considering WE DID IT to them.

There is an old saying: 'Charity begins at home'. The silence on the latest reports from Fallujah is deafening from those CLAIMING to care about victims of these horrors. So it's hard to believe this has anything to do with victims. If Obama meant what he said there, he would have had his DOJ start investigations as soon as he took office and given some justice to the millions of victims of our very own War Crimes.

[ColesCountyDem]

44. I didn't (and won't) make that argument.

But failure to do the right thing in the past does not excuse one from doing the right thing in the present, or future.

[sabrina 1]

46. It's not the past. The victims are still producing deformed babies and begging for help, right now.

There is no need for failure right now. Investigations can begin any time. If the President is sincere in his 'concern' for victims of these horrors, it sure doesn't look like it when he can remain silent in the face of the horrors inflicted on the people of Fallujah which America might not be talking about but the rest of the world is. Notice how often now the US is reminded of its neglect to prosecute War Criminals while at the same time claiming it WANTS to 'punish' War Criminals?

Being selective about War Crimes, especially when the ones you turn a blind eye to, are YOURS causes people to reach the conclusion that it is not War Crimes you are concerned about, or doing the right thing, because if it was, you WOULD do the right thing, people begin to believe that there is an ulterior motive here.

And no one wants to support something they suspect may lead to more War Crimes, because shooting up the neighborhood to 'send a message' to someone no one even knows for sure is responsible, sure isn't doing the 'right thing'.

The right thing would be to join the International Community and decide once and for all to punish ALL War Criminals. Now THAT would send a powerful AND 'right' message to war criminals everywhere.

Shooting up one out of how many of these neighborhoods and killing a whole lot of bystanders in the process, sure is NOT doing the right thing.

What it is, is ticking off another of the seven countries on the PNAC list. We've been moving along nicely ticking them off, one by one. So far we got Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and now Syria. Next up, Lebanon, and it all leads to the big prize, Iran.

And this is known to the world, they know this isn't about the right thing, it's all about the America's role in the New American Century.

Otherwise we'd be bombing our BFF Karamov, in Uzbekistan, or the Bahrain tyrants and so many more.

[ColesCountyDem]

48. I apologize, but I'm not going to follow you into that argument.

I'm going to stick with my reply to the OP, and not be dragged off into something else.

[sabrina 1]

53. Something else? Are we not talking about War Crimes?

Is there a right way and a wrong way to kill people? If so, what are the rules? White Phosphorous when used by the Bush administration causing untold numbers of deaths and the effects on future generations, is something to 'move forward' from?

But deaths caused by Sarin are somehow MORE dead?

I can see why those who defend the current rush to drop more bombs on a ME country using victims of horrific murder, might not want to discuss the hypcrsy.

[ColesCountyDem]

56. We're talking about violating the 1993 Geneva CWC, or at least I am.

Please see all of my posts in reply to the OP. Nowhere do I defend the Bush administration(s), nor do I urge a rush to war. You must have me confused with a different poster. Have a nice day!

[malaise]

51. Ask the Japanese who bombed them with nukes

and killed over 200,000 mostly women, children and old people.

[rug]

19. Don't forget Poland.

[Beer Swiller]

25. The guillotine casts a long shadow...

"Every French leader lives in the shadow of the guillotine."
--Clemenceau

Perhaps Hollande looked over his shoulder and saw it, or perhaps one of his aides pointed it out. Unlike American leaders, most European ones know in their bones that their people are quite capable of putting their heads on poles if they get sufficiently pissed off.

I find that healthy. So, no doubt, do the French people.

[KittyWampus]

26. EU agrees that all indications on Syria chemical attack points to Assad

EU agrees that all indications on Syria chemical attack points to Assad

Source: Washington Post

The European Union agreed on Saturday that the Aug. 21 chemical attack outside Damascus appears to have been the work of Syria’s regime, but that any potential military attack against it should wait for a U.N. inspectors’ report.

After meeting with U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, the EU ministers ended days of division on the issue with a statement saying the available intelligence “seems to indicate strong evidence that the Syrian regime is responsible for these attacks.”

Lithuanian Foreign Minister Linas Linkevicius, who hosted the meeting, put it more bluntly in targeting Syrian President Bashar Assad, speaking of “more and more evidence that the Assad regime is behind all these crimes. We can’t just ignore this.”

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/eu-agrees-that-all-indications-regarding-syria-chemical-attack-points-to-assad/2013/09/07/ffe30420-17b0-11e3-961c-f22d3aaf19ab_story.html

[cali]

33. Yes. The equivalent of the "strongly worded letter". It is not

in any way a commitment to back U.S. military strikes let alone partner with the U.S. in any such strikes.

[jsr]

30. Most French know the difference between a shit sandwich and a macaron

[School Teacher]

36. Dear Coles

Good for you for having some morals. But think about this. The US is using the gassing as an excuse to start a major regional war.
The US did not care about white phosforus in Falluja or in Gaza. The US did not care about Agent Orange in Vietnam. So do you think
they care now about the people that were gassed? No. They are using the bodies of these unfortunates to stir people up to support their
future evil deeds.

There is too much evidence and talk that the gassing was done by rebels, so this could be true.

There is an even greater evil to come if we go to war in Syria and open the final Pandora's Box to Armagedon in the Middle East. Choose the lesser evil this time.

[ColesCountyDem]

41. That's why I'm not advocating a military response, necessarily.

I do believe, however, that simply because such behavior was condoned or overlooked in the past is no excuse for overlooking it now. There MUST be a way to punish this behavior, without starting WW3.

[jsr]

42. Obama's idol RR did nothing when Saddam used chemical weapons in the 1980s.

Saddam gassed ~5,000 people in Halabja alone.

[polichick]

40. But Kerry speaks French and everything!

[Chisox08]

49. Oh that's it no more French Fries for me

I'm only eating Freedom fries for now on.

[woo me with science]

50. K&R

[dflprincess]

52. Kerry reminds me more of Robert McNamara everyday.

“I don’t object to its being called McNamara’s war. I think it is a very important war, and I am pleased to be identified with it and do whatever I can to win it.”

[cali]

55. good comparison.