Why are kids shooting other kids at school?

[undeterred]

Yeah, this is a current events post. I was at work all day and I can't wrap my mind around this news story where 3 kids have died because somebody brought a gun to school. How does this keep happening? What makes a kid do this?

[liberal N proud]

1. If we had answers

If only we had the answers, maybe we could save more.

[msongs]

2. because it's so easy to get guns nt

[Drahthaardogs]

24. No. Because kids have no respect for parents, teachers, or each other.

I blame it on helicopter parents, a neutered school system, and parenting via xbox. I went to a rural high school, half of the senior boys had rifles in their trucks during deer season and shotguns during duck season. We never had issues.

Guns are not any easier to get today than they were in the past. Society has changed.

[iverglas]

34. and kids who have no respect for parents, teachers, or each other

and also have no guns do not shoot their schoolmates.

Guns are not any easier to get today than they were in the past. Society has changed.

Yes, society has changed.

One change is that some guns are easier to get today.

Handguns, for instance, were accessible to very few children two generations ago, but today the US is awash in the things. (This is one of the most significant changes in firearms ownership patterns in the US during that time: the switch from long guns used for recreation, hunting and other rural needs to handguns owned for very different reasons.)

And not many children in urban areas had access to guns two generations ago.

But the big question is: if sociey has changed, and children with access to guns are now using them to engage in acts like these (not to mention other kinds of juvenile gun crime), why is society not changing the way it manages firearms to counteract the effect of those social changes?

If, say, the common cold were no more prevalent today than it was two generations ago, but far more people were being killed or disabled by the common cold today, I don't think we'd just be sitting around saying it isn't the fault of the common cold so we can't/won't do anything about preventing/curing the common cold.

[Skidmore]

66. And easy problem solving by zapping the source of your discomfort is a huge part of

the media they consume. I get really pissed off with those who argue that media bombardment doesn't affect people's actions or thought processes. They sound not one whit different than the "guns don't kill, people do" fools. If you argue that media can skew political thought and actions, it sure as hell can affect the thought processes and actions of an adolescent.

[Drahthaardogs]

93. The only thing you said that made sense is about urban gun ownership.

Guns are MORE difficult to obtain today than they were 20 years ago. I know this personally, since I buy an occasional gun. Handguns have always been around, always will be around. If you wanted to find one 30 years ago, the local gun show was ripe for the picking, high capacity mags and all.

People in the city use guns for things that people in the country do not. However, how much of that "other usage" is because of drugs, gangs, and other societal issues.

So I pose the question to you, why do we scream about the guns instead of the drugs, the gangs, and other urban problems that are the cause, not the blame. In my humble opinion, two drug gangs fighting over turf will settle their differences with machetes and malatov cocktails if they could not get access to guns.

It's the culture, sorry.

[iverglas]

95. yeah, I'll try to do better next time

Not feeling the urge to continue this little subconversation though, I gotta say.

[marlakay]

3. I don't remember hearing

Any of the countries where most guns are illegal having that happen.

[TheWraith]

5. It still happens.

There were a few incidents across Europe the past year.

[notadmblnd]

7. Must not be paying attention

March 11, 2009
Winnenden, Germany Fifteen people were shot and killed at Albertville Technical High School in southwestern Germany by a 17-year-old boy who attended the same school.

Read more: Time Line of Worldwide School Shootings — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html#ixzz1njO03VK1


Sept. 23, 2008
Kauhajoki, Finland A 20-year-old male student shot and killed at least nine students and himself at a vocational college in Kauhajok, 330km (205 miles) north of the capital, Helsinki

Read more: Time Line of Worldwide School Shootings — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html#ixzz1njO8T3g2

Nov. 7, 2007
Tuusula, Finland An 18-year-old student in southern Finland shot and killed five boys, two girls, and the female principal at Jokela High School. At least 10 others were injured. The gunman shot himself and died from his wounds in the hospital.

Read more: Time Line of Worldwide School Shootings — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html#ixzz1njOEGB80

Sept. 13, 2006
Montreal, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.

Read more: Time Line of Worldwide School Shootings — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html#ixzz1njOJmrBW


Should I go on?

by far, the US has the most school shootings. However, the US is not the only place that they occur.

[baldguy]

29. In Europe, it's news because it happens so rarely.

In the US, it's news because it happens so often.

[TheWraith]

4. Usually because the kid is isolated, miserable, and alone.

And they can't take take it anymore. Sometimes they're mentally ill, sometimes they're just desperate.

[FedUpWithIt All]

32. + + + +

I am really feeling for this kid and the kids he shot. Tragic and IMHO preventable.

[butterfly77]

6. Why does everyone pretend

as though this is the first time this has happened? This has been going on for a long time but,everytime it happens everyone acts surprised. I recall cases in the eighties and early nineties.

It seems to only matter if it happens in certain areas then,we need to do something about it.. Schools have been shot up,malls, Holocaust museums,etc..

[LiberalFighter]

12. I agree. Too much focus on a few incidents for the most part.

With the media playing it up. The media has further reach on what gets out especially when so many are owned by the same owners.

[ellisonz]

21. Agreed.

Three teenagers were killed in the last two days in LA., but does that make the news, of course not.

[Posteritatis]

87. Not only that, everyone keeps claiming it's a rising trend. (nt)

[butterfly77]

92. I guess it will become important..

when it happens to the family member of someone famous and maybe not then. If something happens to some republiCONS family members then it will be an epidemic..

[wendylaroux]

8. mental illness

seems to be alot of that in this country, and every where else for that matter.

[tularetom]

9. Maybe it's a consequence of school authorities ignoring bullying

I heard that the kid who did the shooting was an outcast type who was bullied by other kids.

If the people in charge of the school did nothing to discourage the bullies and the kid felt he had nowhere to turn, well... Of course it's an extreme reaction and it's unacceptable but apparently it wasn't corrected.

They'll never be able to stop bully type behavior but it seems they just sort of wink at it these days.

[undeterred]

17. They said that yesterday

but today they said that it was not the case and that the kids he shot were just random. Just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I can't imagine this type of thing happening when I was in high school. I can barely remember anyone getting into a fist fight.

[ieoeja]

39. Those two statements do not contradict one another.

"He was bullied."
"The victims were random."

If you snap over being bullied, you might very well turn on the first person you encounter. You aren't exactly sane at that precise moment.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

94. ^^^ bullying

[rug]

10. They misconstrue No Child Left Behind.

[mike_c]

11. because they can access guns....

That's the single rational reason. Period. Adolescence is a turbulent and difficult time. Some teens have ALWAYS acted out their frustrations and learning experiences inappropriately. Mostly, it leads to embarrassment, maybe a bloody nose or some bruises. Sometimes it turns really bad, but guns make the mix especially volatile. Doing violence with ones own muscles requires commitment-- shooting someone can be as easy as a momentary lapse of commitment. T.J. Lang is going to spend the rest of his life wondering "What the fuck was I thinking?"

Guns. Access to guns. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Tumbulu]

15. agree 100% (nt)

[Faze Lock]

18. When I was in high school, I was on the school rifle team. We carried our guns into school

or left them in the car, nobody ever went nuts and committed mass murder back in those days. Something is different and it's not that guns exist. I don't know the answer, but I think blaming inanimate objects is pretty stupid.
shrug

[iverglas]

35. I know what I think is pretty stupid

I think blaming inanimate objects is pretty stupid.

Have you considered finding someone who is blaming inanimate objects for something and letting them know how you feel?

[Angleae]

25. If that's so, why were there so much fewer school shootings 40+ years ago.

Guns back then were much easier to get.

[hack89]

31. Yet gun violence in America is at historic lows

it has been steadily declining for decades and continues to decline. You have never been safer.

All of this as gun ownership has skyrocketed. More guns does not equal more violence.

[hack89]

37. The 1990's were the deadly years for school shootings.

the 2000's saw a nearly 50% decrease in school deaths.

1990 -1999: 276 school shooting deaths
2000- 2010: 147 school shooting deaths

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#1990s


The 2000's saw more guns in circulation - by your logic school shooting deaths should have also increased. Yet we see a large drop. Why do you think that is?

[ieoeja]

40. School shootings in Chicago in the '80s was so common, it didn't even make front page news.

School shootings were more along the line of dog bites man than man bites dog. Far too frequent to be a major news story.


And I love this piece from your link:

"The two most notable U.S. school shootings in the early 1970s were the Jackson State killings in May 1970, where police opened fire on the campus of Jackson State University and the Kent State shootings also in May 1970 where the National Guard opened fire on the campus of Kent State University."

Ain't it grand that the largest school shootings were by the authorities?

[iverglas]

53. a question on that, though

Was the situation in Chicago not associated with gang activity? And crossfire victims, of course; I'm not suggesting that the victims didn't matter by any means -- just that the situation is different from children taking guns to school to shoot people, without any motive having to do with other criminal activity.

[MichiganVote]

13. They're angry, they give themselves permission and we as a society aid them in that.

Its a phenomena that is beyond bullying. But that's not the popular view.

[undeterred]

19. Ever since Columbine there has been an example

of a way for frustrated young people to act out rage. There was a young man not far from where I live who killed his school principal. Maybe these things have happened on a small scale for a long time, but the mass media makes sure they are well known and the idea is out there

[pecwae]

27. In one sentence

you've summed it up.

"They're angry, they give themselves permission and we as a society aid them in that."

[Robb]

84. Wow.

Exceptionally well put.

[cyglet]

14. Mental illness

plus a society that teaches people to solve their problems with violence.

[deutsey]

16. "Well, sir, I guess there's just a meanness in this world."

Bruce Springsteen, "Nebraska"

[SidDithers]

20. In this case, it may have been because the shooter's former girlfriend...

started dating one of the kids who was killed.

Raging hormones and unrequited love can be a tragic combination.

Sid

[ellisonz]

23. Bill Maher on the Gun Culture

Published on Feb 28, 2012 by CNN
Comedian Bill Maher says that we live in a gun culture and wonders why people love them so much.

[baldguy]

30. +1000

Gun worship is killing people.

[LadyHawkAZ]

26. because guns are a quick way for the powerless to feel powerful

and unfortunately it's glorified in our mass media.

[Tom Ripley]

28. Forced Moment of Silence and recitation of The Pledge of Allegiance

We had none of that shit when I was attending school, and no one ever brought a gun to school and started killing people.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

78. You probably also didn't have school hot lunches or breakfast.....

...do you want to blame that too?

[AlinPA]

36. It is built into the culture in the US: "guns solve problems".

[MineralMan]

38. Because they're angry and have access to firearms.

However, how many kids are doing this? How often does this happen? Has it happened at a school in your community? This kind of school shooting is very rare. If you think about just how many schools there are in this country, and then take school shootings by students, you can find the percentage of schools where such a thing has happened in, say, the past five years. I haven't calculated it, but it's very, very small.

What has changed since the availability of a 24/7 news system, along with the Internet, is that we hear about each one as a national event. School shootings happened before we had such instant access, too, but they were local news stories, maybe making it to statewide status. Today, it seems like they're more frequent, because we hear about every one of them. The reality is that there are actually fewer such school shootings and the numbers are going down.

Each such shooting is a terrible tragedy, and we should be doing everything we can to prevent them from happening. But, they're still rare events, unpredictable, and generally one-time acts of rage by kids with some issue that causes that rage. Firearms have always been available to kids. My father had quite a number of them, which he used for hunting. I could have gotten one at any time after the age of about 12. That was the cases in many, households when I grew up in the 50s and 60s. There were school shootings then, too, but you only heard about the ones that happened somewhere nearby, not ones that happened on the other side of the country.

[ellisonz]

45. I would just note...

...that there is a difference between a rifle and a handgun in terms of image and concealment. Most of these incidents seem to involve handguns or in some cases semi-automatic rifles.

[MineralMan]

48. Both have been used in these shootings.

The weapon is often not a choice, but what is available, I imagine. It is the rage that is the cause. The weapon is the tool for expressing it. It can be anything, really. Firearms are more deadly than other tools.

My point is that we always have enraged people among us. The surprise is that more such incidents don't occur.

[iverglas]

41. School shootings and where students got their guns

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2012/02/school_shootings_and_where_stu.html

Virtually all involved handguns, and all came from the homes of family members or family friends.

Some of the guns used were kept under lock and key (and the child accessed the key). Some were kept in a shoebox or under a futon cushion.

The problem looks obvious to me.

[ellisonz]

46. Bingo.

[DefenseLawyer]

42. I don't think it's anything new

people have been killing each other for a long time, the difference is now your phone tells you it happened 5 minutes later all over the world.

[GeorgeGist]

43. Perhaps because they're ...

phucked up?

[ScreamingMeemie]

44. Sometimes things happen. Things thay we may, or may not, have the power

to control. Any number of things can make a person do this...to others, or themselves. And sometimes we'll just never know why.

[Chorophyll]

47. Why are adults shooting other adults at health clubs?

We have troubled people among us, and we are awash in guns.

Only no one is willing to talk about the fucking guns. Guns are sacred in this country.

And before anyone jumps in with their high school rifle team stories: we are also a society awash in anger and paranoid rhetoric, which might not have been the case when you were on the high school rifle team, but which has certainly been the case the advent of talk radio and Fox News.

Angry paranoia plus mental illness plus guns = spree shootings. Adults began it. Kids learn by example.

[MineralMan]

49. People are willing to talk about the firearms.

However, the society places a high value on the right to own them, so it seems extremely unlikely that they will disappear. What that means is that we have to come at the problem from a different angle. Of course if the kid couldn't access a firearm, it's likely the targets of his rage would not be dead. That doesn't mean that violence would not have occurred.

The reality is that firearms are not going to be banned in our lifetimes. So, we have to approach the problem in another way. The focus needs to be on why people are troubled to the degree that they use violence. That's more complicated to deal with, but it's the thing that needs to be dealt with. There are millions of firearms, but a much smaller number of people who would use them in this way. So, let's look at how we can help those people.

[iverglas]

56. that's a bit of a false dichotomy

The reality is that firearms are not going to be banned in our lifetimes.

Nobody here is suggesting they would or shoud be. There is a very long spectrum between the situation that exists in the US and banning firearms.

Generally speaking, people are only charged with allowing children access to firearms (or some other child-welfare related offence) once the child has taken the firearm and caused death or injury with it. There aren't a lot of laws in the US requiring safe/secure storage. Laws themselves do not alter behaviour, but laws + enforcement when the occasion arises + widespread public education and information campaigns can have an effect.

Such laws would also have an effect on the number of firearms stolen and put into criminal circulation. In the article I cited lower down the thread, a child got the father's handgun from his bedroom. (The old gun in the nighstand?) A burglar could have got it as easily, and does hundreds of times a year. Negligent storage has all kinds of knock-on effects.

But in the case of kids who are not gang-involved who take guns to school and shoot people, access in the home is the really big issue.

[MineralMan]

62. Laws regarding storage won't mean that firearms

are properly stored. All they will accomplish is provide a way to punish those who didn't store them properly after the fact. Some people will continue to keep firearms in unsafe places, despite the laws. Laws are used for punishment, not for getting people to do things, and people very commonly ignore them, as we can see every day on any freeway.

There are laws against drunk driving, too, and yet...

A far more effective way to deal with the rare incidents where a school student shoots people is to be aware of the things that contribute to the rage that induces such a student to act. If we were willing to work from that end of the situation, we'd have far better success than throwing new firearms storage laws at the problem. Think about it.

[iverglas]

68. I guess I didn't type what I thought I'd typed

Or you just decided to ignore it.

Laws regarding storage won't mean that firearms
are properly stored.

I SAID that laws alone do not accomplish much. I SAID that what was needed was enforcement when the occasion arose -- but which I did NOT mean only after harm had been done. No one is suggesting warrantless searches to check for loose firearms, but there are definitely occasions when such situations are observed and nothing is done about them. And I SAID that public education and information campaigns are an important element.

There are laws against drunk driving, too, and yet...

... and yet ... rates of drunk driving have plummeted, at least where I am. Laws, enforcement, and public information and education campaigns. Like I said.

A far more effective way to deal with the rare incidents where a school student shoots people is to be aware of the things that contribute to the rage that induces such a student to act. If we were willing to work from that end of the situation, we'd have far better success than throwing new firearms storage laws at the problem. Think about it.

"Think about it"??? Well, thank you, that's courteous of you. I'll have to assume that you don't know that I've been thinking out loud about "it" for a decade here at DU.

Yeah, sure, I'll think about it. Let's do mental health / personality assessments of every kid who enters school, identify the ones with problems, and then ... ? Assign minders to every one who scores problematic? Segregate them to isolate them from negative social influences that might cause them to go bang?

It's insulting to people with mental health problems to suggest that this is the reason some people go on killing rampages, as people so often suggest. People with mental illnesses simply do not commonly develop the kind of narcissism, resentment, rage, whatever, that are usually behind these situations. And it is really completely impossible to predict which problem child is going to decide to take out a dozen of their peers one fine day.

Certainly, let's work toward utopia, where there is no misogyny (one of the biggest factors behind firearms violence, like any other form of violence), no poverty, no mean kids in the schoolyard. But meanwhile, let's make sure all the problem people are well armed ...

[MineralMan]

74. And you've misunderstood me.

What I want is schools that have enough staff to watch for bullying, mistreatment, and early symptoms of developing mental health problems. I want schools with staffs that have training in these things and support from administrators for their watchfulness. I want intervention done in every bullying situation so that it is clearly not an acceptable thing, as it is in so many schools today, like the ones in the Anoka-Hennepin district in Minnesota near where I live.

Not utopia, but responsibility and ability to solve problems. I didn't even mention mental illness. While it can be a factor, simple, justified rage at problems being ignored is the more common issue, frankly. I'm talking about programs that remove the kind of behaviors that belittle and provoke, not some sort of looking for likely perpetrators of this kind of violence. I want to prevent it by removing the stimuli that trigger it.

To do that, our schools need to be fully staffed, with classroom sizes small enough that every teacher knows her students. Those schools need to be intolerant of bullying behavior, diverting bullies into programs designed to teach the bullies not to bully by finding out what's causing the bullying behavior. Often bullies are themselves victims of bullying. I'm talking about a society that actually cares about the individual children. That's the way to end most of these unfortunate incidents. There aren't many school shootings. Let's work on the causes for them by making our schools places where children thrive, rather than places where they disappear into the background and are not the center of the process of education.

So, you see, I'm not in favor of things that don't work. I want things that do work, and that will have many other benefits, besides.

[iverglas]

77. the thing is

There really is no good evidence that "bullying" is a significant factor in these events, i.e. that it was a causal factor in a significant proportion of them.

It's a good cause you fight for, no doubt about that. But it really is not the answer to firearms violence.

So, you see, I'm not in favor of things that don't work. I want things that do work, and that will have many other benefits, besides.

It might be easier to "understand" you if you didn't attempt to dismiss evidence-based comments quite so, um, dismissively.

You are in fact in favour of things that don't work, since the problem you want to attack, admirable as your proposals are for various reasons, is not the problem at hand here.

[Chorophyll]

67. Actually, I'm suggesting firearms should be banned.

But when I say no one will talk about it, I mean that the phrase "gun control" has been completely scrubbed from the mass media and from the agendas of most politicians, no matter where they stand on the subject.

That's how powerful the gun lobby is in this country. You can't even say "gun control" without being shouted down from all sides.

Even at DU. Imagine that.

[iverglas]

69. well, I'm sure that all the people

who depend to some extent on firearms for their livelihood -- farmers whose crops and livestock are vulnerable to pests and predators, communities where hunting is an important tourist-dollar attraction, people who actually hunt for sustenance -- will take issue with your proposal, as I would.

Obviously I don't disagree with you about the rest; the elimination of firearms policy from the public discourse in the US is part and parcel of the rightward drift of that discourse, and meanwhile the policy changes that are constantly being made to actually loosen the regulation of firearms is part of the rightward drift of public policy itself.

(I haven't yet been shouted down at DU after a decade of tangling with the proponents of those policies in the Guns forum ... but I do get bored more frequently and easily these days. )

[Chorophyll]

105. There are reasonable firearm bans in western Europe,

and yet I'm pretty sure farmers who have to (have to?) shoot werewolves or something are allowed to keep a legal rifle.

[iverglas]

108. I'm in Canada

So I really do know about "reasonable" firearms regulation. I support all the regulation of firearms we have in Canada, and more. (E.g. I vehemently oppose the dismantling of the long gun registry by our present far right-wing Conservative federal government, and I advocate that those who are currently allowed to possess handguns - at present, that means sports shooters and collectors only, and only for those purposes - be required to store them at a secure third-party facility, such as the club where a sports shooter must go, in any event, to use their handgun.)

I gather that when you said "Actually, I'm suggesting firearms should be banned", you meant "some firearms should be banned", so it's probably worthwhile to specify that. Otherwise, your post will be saved away and brought up next time a firearms control advocate says something along the line of "you know, nobody is actually advocating that firearms be banned".

I guess the werewolves in Europe didn't make it to Canada. Farmers and ranchers here tend to use long guns against coyotes and wolves and the like attacking their livestock, I think. And people who live in the North and other rural areas often find it handy to have something to protect themselves with against, oh, bears. As well, there are remote communities in Canada that depend on outfitting and guiding hunters for a significant part of their economy.

Problems come with all of those situations, the incidence of spousal violence against women by men with firearms (from intimidation up to murder) in rural communities being one of them. As in all public policy areas, the goal is to reduce the risk of harm being caused with firearms. That harm is no more likely to be eliminated in the next few lifetimes, no matter what policies are instituted, than any other kind of harm in society is.

Societal tolerance of unsafe/insecure firearms storage (as well as totally inadequate regulation of firearms transfers in the US) is obviously a huge factor in children getting access to firearms and using them in situations like this. All sorts of things could be done to reduce the risk of children getting access to firearms. Gun militants don't like any of them because (allegedly) those measures would inconvenience them. What they care about, and don't care about, is pretty obvious.

[Snake Alchemist]

70. What other amendments would you like to scrub? The 1st amendment definitely needs some more

limitations. So people only say the right things. nt

[Chorophyll]

102. You should read the entire amendment, which has something to do with militias

from back before we had a real army or 50 states and when we still had slaves and only white male property owners could vote.

Thanks.

[Snake Alchemist]

106. I believe the Supreme Court has taken up that case from time to time and ruled that it applies to

all citizens. So you'd rather have militias like the Minute Men, and those we see in Montana be the only ones able to carry arms?

[EX500rider]

100. You mean like in those peaceful countries Mexico & Jamaica where guns are banned? n/t

[Chorophyll]

104. No Stewie. I was thinking more of Western Europe,

where murders by gun are extremely few and far between, and whose governments actually function in a way I would like to see ours emulate.

[EX500rider]

107. US kills more without guns then the W Europeans do with guns..

....so I don't think it's just the guns.

Without a gun he could have just stolen the parents car and mowed even more down with it at school.
Lack of guns never stopped people who want to kill.

[iverglas]

51. actually, if that's the case I'm thinking of,

it was specifically a man shooting and killing women at a health club. As Marc Lépine shot and killed women at the Montréal Polytechnique.

In the case we may both be thinking of, there was no evidence of mental illness. Narcissism, yes. That is now the prevailing analysis of at least one of the Columbine killers as well. Personality disorders are not mental illnesses.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, just pointing out that mental illness does not really explain many of these incidents. Sometimes "loners", for example, or even victims of bullying, are loners and bullied because they really are unpleasant people. And that's why they do what they then do: not because they are excluded or victimized, but because they are unpleasant.

I've posted about this phenomenon at DU in relation to several well-known killers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=341&topic_id=14532&mesg_id=14561
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=244827&mesg_id=245313
(the gym killer)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=439206&mesg_id=440025
(the Norwegian killer)

Narcissists aren't born (although psychopaths may be). But they're bloody hard to do anything about -- and they certainly aren't candidates for the two mental health situations that would disqualify them from legal firearms access in the US (although do essentially nothing to actually inhibit access): commitment for treatment or adjudication as incompetent.

It really is the guns in the equation that something can and should be done about.

[Chorophyll]

65. Yes, I remember this. But there was a shooting at a health club just last week,

near Atlanta, I believe. A "domestic dispute" caused the shooter to fire into the health club.

Perhaps "mental illness" is an inaccurate term. I don't know. In any case, picking up your gun and firing at strangers because you're upset is a lot harder to do WITHOUT THE GUN.

[gratuitous]

50. Because our society carefully teaches that might makes right

It would be shocking if it didn't happen. Anyone under the age of 18 has lived most of his or her life in a United States that acts on the premise that might makes right. We turn to violence as the panacea for whatever ails us, lobbing missiles into civilian areas, holding people without charge for years on end, summarily executing people all over the world, and blowing up anything that scares us or baffles us. Yeah, there's some lip service paid to working things out and some namby-pamby touchy-feely stuff about talking out our differences. But when a quick resolution to a problem is needed, the bullets and the bombs fly, and anyone in the way is just out of luck or probably deserved it.

What lessons should our children be learning, and are we strong and confident enough to renounce violence? Magic 8 Ball says "Signs Point to No."

[slackmaster]

52. Generally, they're not.

The few that have done so have turned out to be mentally ill.

[iverglas]

58. generally, that really is not true

It's a nice easy answer, but sadly ...

http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/criminal-profiling/Columbine_Eric-Harris-profile.html

Eric Harris’s personality, as inferred from his writing, is consistent with the syndrome described by Otto Kernberg (1984) as malignant narcissism. The core components of this syndrome are pathological narcissism, antisocial features, paranoid traits, and unconstrained aggression. More narrowly construed, Eric Harris matches Theodore Millon’s (1996) description of the malevolent antisocial.

Not a mental illness.

Not all individuals who behave like this fit that exact profile, obviously. Some are mentally ill, as apparently Cho was. But it is very much a mistake to think that all or even most mass murderers are suffering from some kind of delusional psychosis or the like, and their acts could have been prevented by some therapy and a few pills. (Or even that having them committed for treatment could have prevented them getting guns -- the databases are too negligently maintained, just for starters; and being unable to get guns legally certainly does not mean that someone in a society where access is so unregulated and that is as awash in the things as the US they would not get them.)

[slackmaster]

63. Malignant narcissism most certainly is a mental disorder.

It's considered a form of Antisocial Personality Disorder and falls along a spectrum (known as Cluster B) that includes psychopathy and Narcissistic and Borderline Personality Disorders.

[iverglas]

71. now, what did I say?

I sure as hell did not say "mental disorder".

A personality disorder is not a mental illness.

I believe I have already said that elsewhere in this thread ...

[slackmaster]

76. Gerb-chibble. Personality disorders are among the most destructive mental illnesses

And the most difficult to treat.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/personality-disorders/DS00562

[iverglas]

79. lordy

A personality disorder is a "mental illness" only in the most lay possible terms.

It very very definitely does not disqualify anyone from legal firearms purchase in the US, because it could never ever provide a basis for an involuntary commitment for treatment.

People with personality disorders do not suffer altered consciousness or delusions, their affect is not determined by a medical condition, they are not unable to control their impulses. People with personality disorders have never been recognized by a court as not criminally responsible for their actions.

You started out by saying, in response to "Why are kids shooting other kids at school?":

Generally, they're not.
The few that have done so have turned out to be mentally ill.

And I maintain that this is simply not accurate, since people with personality orders are simply not accurately characterized as "mentally ill", that being one reason I do not really think you were referring to personality disorders when you said it.

[slackmaster]

80. Go argue with any psychiatrist or psychologist about what "mental illness" means

[iverglas]

81. and you can check out the new DSM coming out next year

For now, a brief review:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder

Classification

The two major systems of classification, the ICD and DSM, have deliberately merged their diagnoses to some extent, but there remain differences. For example, ICD-10 does not include narcissistic personality disorder as a distinct category, while DSM-IV does not include enduring personality change after catastrophic experience or after psychiatric illness. ICD-10 classifies the DSM-IV schizotypal personality disorder as a form of schizophrenia rather than as a personality disorder. DSM-IV places personality disorders on a separate 'axis' to mental disorders, while the ICD does not use a multiaxial system. There are accepted diagnostic issues and controversies with regard to either section, in terms of distinguishing personality disorders as a category from other types of mental disorder or from general personality functioning, or distinguishing particular personality disorder categories from each other.

Not all personality disorders are associated with violent antisocial behaviour, of course. With possibly close to 10% of the population having a diagnosable personality disorder, that's fortunate.

Just way too much generalizing and hobbyhorse riding in this thread all round. Mental illness is a serious social problem and calls for serious public action. So is firearms violence. The two are not really that closely connected.

[slackmaster]

83. Mentally healthy people don't kill random innocent people

I have been following the DSM-V story closely. Re-classifying Narcissistic Personality Disorder as Personality Disorder With Cheese won't make patients any less dysfunctional.

BTW, my Borderline friend took her own life last month. Everyone who knew her regarded her as mentally ill, except her. But she really didn't know who she was.

[iverglas]

85. seriously: "mentally ill" and "not nice" are not the same things

Mentally healthy people don't kill random innocent people

The really important thing here is: mentally ill people don't kill random innocent people.

We know how important it is to deflect any suggestion that unregulated access to firearms is a contributing factor in violence and homicide.

But making mentally ill people the scapegoat just isn't very nice itself. Calling unpleasant people who do unpleasant things "mentally ill" does no one any favours, in fact.

People with NPD typically are not dysfunctional. Actual psychopaths can be very high-functioning.

Borderline personality disorder and NPD, for example, are very different creatures. People with borderline personality disorder to not often engage in violent behaviours. The fact that both are classified as personality disorders does not make them any more similar than chicken pox and bird flu are, even though both are viruses. (BPD is as much a mood disorder as anything, and frankly I've never been quite sure why it's even classified as a personality disorder. It's one of those female troubles more than anything, and I'm just naturally suspicious. And I'm not the only one in the world who suspects misogyny at the root.)

Women (diagnosed) with BPD do not become mass murderers, although they do sometimes commit suicide. Some men with narcissistic-to-psychopathic personality disorders do (while others just cause other kinds of harm to people who cross their paths). They don't tend to commit suicide unless it's part of their homicidal plan. We're talking about mass murderers, not unfortunate women with fears of abandonment.

[slackmaster]

89. The subject of personality disorders seems to have struck a nerve with you, iverglas

Last edited Thu Mar 1, 2012, 01:02 AM - Edit history (1)

The really important thing here is: mentally ill people don't kill random innocent people.

Obviously most mentally ill people are harmful only to themselves and their loved ones, but anyone who kills random innocent people most certainly is mentally ill.

Have a good evening.

[iverglas]

90. and thus endeth any semblance of civil discourse

I trust you will be putting me on ignore again. Please.

The subject of personality disorders seems to have stuck a nerve with you, iverglas

Astounding incivility. No, no, I vowed to stop feigning surprise ...

[Snake Alchemist]

86. Wait, are you seriously trying to claim that a personality disorder is not mental illness?

I hear they're also saying paranoid schizophrenia is not a mental illness either.

[iverglas]

91. I hear they'r esaying

that the Guns forum has sprung a leak.

[FedUp_Queer]

54. It's obviously because we took prayer out of schools.

[kctim]

55. What makes a kid do this? Guns.

Guns lay under the bed every night and tell the kid to take it to school and kill. If the kid doesn't listen, the gun hides in the kids pants until the kid gets to school where it jumps out and shoots people on its own.
It's guns that are evil, not the kid who has been conditioned to believe he is a victim of everything.

[iverglas]

57. what an odd notion

Oh well, it takes all kinds.

[kctim]

59. Yes, blaming the gun is indeed very odd

[iverglas]

61. I absolutely agree!

Since you're the only person I see doing that ... well ...

[kctim]

72. Riiiiiiiiiight

You all are talking about "access" to guns, not the 2nd Amendment or guns themselves, right? I have heard this fearful rhetoric many times before and the simple fact is that it ALL boils down to guns being the problem and, despite the 2nd Amendment, "access" to them must be strictly controlled and monitored.

In cases like this, it is the individuals fault, not the gun he had "access" to and used.

[iverglas]

73. here's a thought

Why don't you find a post in which someone says something you take issue with, and reply to it?

It tends to work better that way than if you just make up stuff and claim somebody said it.

[2ndAmForComputers]

97. No way! Oyster secretions must be held emphatically!

[kctim]

98. You are of course correct

Nobody has blamed guns for the problem and I am only making things up.

In fact, it was me who stated:
"because it's so easy to get guns"
"... countries where most guns are illegal having that happen."
"because they can access guns...."
"Guns. Access to guns. Nothing more, nothing less"
"Gun worship is killing people"
"School shootings and where students got their guns -The problem looks obvious to me."
"Actually, I'm suggesting firearms should be banned"

It is VERY obvious that I take issue with those who, instead of blaming the person responsible, they blame guns, access to guns and the 2nd Amendment. My initial post, which I had to hit the "Post my REPLY" button to post, made light of those who live in constant fear and blame guns.

[iverglas]

99. you are absolutely right!

Nobody has blamed guns for the problem and I am only making things up.

And thank you for the various quotations demonstrating the accuracy of that statement!

It is VERY obvious that I take issue with those who, instead of blaming the person responsible, they blame guns, access to guns and the 2nd Amendment.

You see, the thing here is that while you may be the kind of person who likes to point fingers and "blame", that's not really a universal trait. Some people like to identify sources of problems and look for solutions.

Nobody in your litany blamed guns. They identified "access to guns", "gun worship", "where students got their guns", etc., as sources of a problem. Nobody really pointed a finger at a gun and said "this is all your fault". That's what some people with delusional mental illnesses sometimes do: ascribe intent to inanimate objects.

Nobody here seems to be suffering from delusions. And the only one operating on the premise that inanimate objects are capable of forming intent, and thus of being potentially blameworthy, is you.

Instead of blaming the person responsible, which does fuck all to remedy the harm caused (which is irremediable, in this case) or to reduce the risk of it happening again, they look for ways to reduce that risk.

You, it appears, sit around pointing your finger and are not at all interested in reducing the risks of children gaining access to firearms and killing other children, among the many harms associated with access to firearms.

Your choice. Not wise to pretend someone else is playing the silly blame game, though, when they aren't, really.

My initial post, which I had to hit the "Post my REPLY" button to post, made light of those who live in constant fear and blame guns.

No, it didn't, it made an incivil attempt to mock DUers in this thread, and it failed because its targets were onlyin your head.

[ellisonz]

88. Denialism. n/t

[BlueDemKev]

60. They're sick of being bullied and want to show everyone they're powerful.

That, and easy access to guns.

[Snake Alchemist]

64. Movies / TV. We must have more regulation immediately. nt

[YellowRubberDuckie]

75. The kid is not well.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/29/teen-appears-in-court-aft_n_1309753.html
Also, he was bullied. Big shocker.

[Honeycombe8]

82. Either bad parents/family, or an untreated mental condition (which is ALSO a

bad parenting thing, since I'd wonder how parents didn't notice).

[lynne]

96. Guns much easier to get in the 1940's, 50's, 60's -

- yet you never heard of student-on-student shootings in those years. Ability to acquire guns obviously not a reason for this phenomenon.

[Taverner]

101. Because kids are humans

Every problem associated with humans is there in kids

[AngryAmish]

103. They don't like Mondays and it livens up the day.