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eridani

(51,907 posts)
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 04:09 AM Sep 2013

Could the Syrian National Council have overturned Assad's government nonviolently?

That worked in Tunisia and Egypt, though of course it did not prevent a lot of subsequent problems resulting from secular/Islamist political division. I think it probably could have worked in Syria as well, although the same divide would surely have caused a lot of the same problems

(An interesting take on the turmoil in Tunisia is here-- http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/08/20138310271198303.html)

The NCB had three principles: non-violence, non-sectarianism and opposition to foreign military intervention. They were derailed because the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar absolutely refused to tolerate that third principle. These countries started the civil war the problems of which they now want to fix by blowing more shit up.

http://www.alternet.org/world/america-has-fueled-bloody-civil-war-syria

1) As protests spread through the Arab world in 2011, the mostly leftist groups who organized the Arab Spring protests in Syria formed the NCB to coordinate peaceful protests and resistance to government repression. They agreed, and they still agree, on three basic principles: non-violence; non-sectarianism; and no foreign military intervention. But the U.S. and its allies marginalized the NCB, formed an unrepresentative "Syrian National Council" in Turkey as a government-in-exile and recruited, armed and trained violent armed groups to pursue regime change in Syria.

2) The United States, the United Kingdom, France, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar began flying in fighters, weapons and equipment to turn the Syrian Spring into a bloody civil war. Once they had overthrown the government of Libya, at the cost of 25,000 to 50,000 lives, they began adapting the same strategy to Syria, despite knowing full well that this would be a much more drawn-out, destructive and bloody war.

3) Even as a Qatari-funded YouGov poll in December 2011 found that 55% of Syrians still supported their government, unmarked NATO planes were flying fighters and weapons from Libya to the "Free Syrian Army" base at Iskanderum in Turkey. British and French special forces were training FSA recruits, while the CIA and US special forces provided communications equipment and intelligence, as in Libya. Retired CIA officer Philip Giraldi concluded, "Syrian government claims that it is being assaulted by rebels who are armed, trained and financed by foreign governments are more true than false."

4) Over the past two years, we have learned more about who is doing what in Syria. Anti-government sources acknowledged in June 2013 that 2,100 of the 16,700 rebel fighters killed so far in Syria were foreigners, while only 145 of 41,600 loyalists killed in action were foreign Hezbollah members.

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joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
5. Erm, Egypt Revolution 840 deaths. Egypt Coup 1,119.
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 04:41 AM
Sep 2013

The coup is already more violent than the revolution, showing that the Egyptian Military was less murderous under the Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Revolution_of_2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_violence_in_Egypt_(July_2013–present)

eridani

(51,907 posts)
6. What if there had been an Egyptian government-in-exile in Turkey
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 04:45 AM
Sep 2013

--which was trained, armed and supplied by Saudi Arabia and the US? Think the casualties might have been higher?

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
7. Sure, but you need to start killing protesters first.
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 04:50 AM
Sep 2013

Peaceful protesters don't start accepting free arms and training unless they're fighting for something. Had the Egyptian military actually fired upon the protesters there would've been an armed resistance. We're seeing this to a small extent with the Muslim Brotherhood (and who knows how this will play out in the end) in Egypt.

Oh, and if you started mowing down protesters, I'm sure there would be military defections, too. So not only do you have really pissed off people who saw their friends get mowed down you got a military and their trained defectors to deal with.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
8. Did you miss the part about foreign fighters?
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 04:54 AM
Sep 2013
Over the past two years, we have learned more about who is doing what in Syria. Anti-government sources acknowledged in June 2013 that 2,100 of the 16,700 rebel fighters killed so far in Syria were foreigners, while only 145 of 41,600 loyalists killed in action were foreign Hezbollah members.


The Saudis and the Emirates are funding the opposition to specifically impose a reactionary Islamist state. In Egypt the Islamists were at least willing to work with electoral politics.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
9. Sure, and the vast majority were Palestinian.
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 05:09 AM
Sep 2013

I'm not sure we'd characterize Palestinians as terrorists, in general, more that they felt there was a cause worth fighting for (and someone paid them to do it). Whether right or wrong they identified with the Syrian rebels and fought back.

I don't think that foreign fighters alone turns the tide in a modern civil war when one country has vastly superior weaponry nor that it necessarily prolongs said war.

I don't see people in war as patsies or fools, I think most, especially in civil wars, are fighting for something they believe in. Now I might ardently disagree with the beliefs of those whose beliefs are abhorrent but looking at the situation from that perspective you can see why they'd accept arms or training (or in your example, fighters).

Regardless the Syrian Civil War was a Peaceful Uprising until they formed the FSA, and it didn't even get really bloody until a year after it began. If anything Assad's crackdown gave ample opportunity for foreign elements to get involved. A year of very light fighting? Easy to get in and get organized.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
12. Palestinians have a huge unemployment rate, and are therefore likely to
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 05:31 AM
Sep 2013

--appreciate Saudi cash. 500,000K Palestinian refugees in Syria and Lebanon also have no right of return to Israel.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
11. Here's a possiblity that bugs me.
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 05:30 AM
Sep 2013

Riad al-Asaad had no real reason to defect and take his army with him. Unless he was paid. It wasn't like there was a big armed insurgency. His formation of the Free Syrian Army is in deep question since he took a backseat 6 months later and passed leadership over to Salim Idris. Both of them effectively ran / run the military from Turkey.

This is in contrast to Libya, where Abdul Fatah Younis defected, not necessarily because he actually wanted to (he was Gaddafi's personal torturer) but because Benghazi was under siege by heavily armed ... citizens. His defection was likely because he wanted to save his own ass. In any event Younis actually engaged in battle and was at the front lines throughout. He was killed after being called back from the battle of Brega, likely assassinated due to his being Gaddafi's former torturer. His replacement was, get this, Khalifa Belqasim Haftar, a Libyan exile living in the United States.

In any event, just see yourself as a peaceful protester, if some armed Palestinians come around saying they want to fight for something, you're going to give them a weird look. If, however, a military is formed and starts fighting back, and said military brings incursions into your town, you lose a loved one, and those same guys come into town you're going to take up arms and go get some revenge. I really do think it's this simplistic.

I think Assad's crackdowns are to blame, though, because had there been none, there would've been no defection possibility. What was Riad al-Asaad going to do? "You're using too many rubber bullets and tear gas canisters." As sad as I'd hate to say it but had he gone the Crush Occupy Route (large scale police action, kettling, large scale arrests) then things wouldn't be so bad right now. If you get arrested and are released in a day or so you go back to protesting you kind of just say "meh" after while. It's when people start killing that you decide you must take up arms.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
3. Doutful. It was mostly peaceful for months.
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 04:35 AM
Sep 2013

Neither Egypt or Tunisia had armies shooting at unarmed protesters (there were instances in both Tunisia and Egypt where police did fire and some did go to jail for it, but generally it was peaceful by its nature). The same can't be said for Libya where 400 protesters died in the first day of protests (and collective punishment was the law of the land there, so the protesters were desperate and armed themselves).

Syria itself is an anomaly because they protested, peacefully, for weeks. The protests stated on the 26th of January and the first police weren't killed until March 20 (largely in response to protesters who had been killed). The first large killing happened on April 22. Still no large conflict or armed resistance though Daraa was besieged. The death toll up until this point, throughout the entire country, was only a couple if hundred at most, from all sides. At this point freaking New Orleans or Chicago, from a pure numbers perspective, was more dangerous than Syria. May 5th is when the Homs was besieged, however, and the government took a harder stance.

It wasn't until June 20 of 2011 that Assad declared tens of thousands of sedition (which I covered simultaneously as I covered Libya, because it was a sea change in how Assad was handling the unrest, many observers until this point thought Assad was being "OK&quot . You have to keep in mind tens of thousands were protesting almost daily this whole time and the protests only grew from there. The crackdowns on protests were severe from then on.

The Free Syrian Army was formed July 29 with mass defections from the Syrian army after the weeks earlier resignation of Riad al-Asaad. 6 months and 3 days after the beginning of the largely peaceful protests. By December 'only' 4,000 dead at most, most of whom were civilians. Or 12 dead a day. Certainly bad, but no worse than Mexico, or many Latin American countries, for that matter. This is not a country at war. Turmoil, yes, but Civil War, no. Safer than Detroit, safer than Saint Louis. The month of December 2011 indicated a ramp up of hostilities by both sides. By the end of December the deaths were 6,000 or roughly 33 dead a day, extra. It has since ramped up to 100 dead a day.

I can't say when it truly became a civil war as far as violence is concerned, but the creation of the FSA certainly legitimized Assad's crackdown on people, because he originally called the protesters treasonous but once you make an army, well, you are going to be in for a world of hurt.

I believe that ultimately nothing could've been done peacefully other than opposition members laying down and giving up their agency, probably being executed in large numbers, and jailed for years in even larger numbers. Once Assad crossed that "red line" of accusing peaceful protesters of sedition, well, he couldn't go back.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
10. once the movement turned into a religious/sectarian clash - resolving the conflict became impossible
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 05:14 AM
Sep 2013

for the time being. On a much smaller scale - because it is a much smaller place with a lot fewer people and fewer sectarian groups - Bahrain experienced something similar. Only in Bahrain's case it was a Sunni government ruling over a solid majority Shiite population. Word of an "Arab Spring" and pro-democracy movement did inspire demonstrations in Bahrain also - But quickly this came to be seen by the minority Sunnis as an attempt by the majority Shiites of attempting to take power under the direction of Iran - Given that popular folklore in the less secular parts of Sunni Arab society has much if not most of the Sunni majority believing that a Shiite takeover would mean their eradication - what may have started as primarily a sectarian neutral pro-democracy movement quickly became a violent clash between the majority but politically powerless Shiites and the minority but politically and economically dominant Sunnis of Bahrain

To a large extend the Assad Baathist regime based its political backing on making a base from the minority populations - whether his own Alawites, along with other Shiites, and of course the Christian, Druze and Kurdish minorities. What may very well have started as a primarily secular and sectarian neutral pro-democracy movement quickly devolved into a movement that was seen as an attempt by the Sunni-Arab majority to seize power away from Assad's Baathist version of a rainbow coalition. Again the various minorities under the protective umbrella of Assad came to see this movement as a threat that could mean not only political dispossession - but their annihilation

Of course outside encouragement, agitation and material support played a major role. Certainly in Bahrain it was widely believed and likely true that the Iranian government was aiding and abetting the movement. There is of course no doubt that in Syria - the Saudis, Qataris, Turks were very actively supporting this anti-Assad movement with their own agendas.

When the enfranchised populations whether in Bahrain or Syrian are overwhelmingly convinced that a loss of power from the regime that they huddle under would mean a bloodbath of their people - what would be the natural response?

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
13. 93 deaths in Bahrain in 2.5 years.
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 05:56 AM
Sep 2013

Why? Because the police use non-lethal US-style methods to crack down. Granted, the Saudi's are paying for that, too (the tear gas, police equipment, etc). But it's one of those approaches that people go "well fuck, I don't have to start shooting anyone because me and my friends are not getting killed."

Now arrests? In Bahrain there have been 3k arrests. Jail time for all of them. Long sentences.

Ultimately I agree though that the Sunni's want to take power in Syria (and I believe there will be ethnic cleansing if that happens). But Assad went the wrong route. Why not go the Bahrain route? We in the west deplore non-lethal police tactics, but it's sort of what separates us apart from the developing world. Certainly if the police shot Occupy protesters with bullets they would've headed to the nearest Wal-Mart and armed themselves for the next time!

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
14. obviuosly the Bahrain government is a lot more sophisticated - even the Saudis in their dealings
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 06:11 AM
Sep 2013

with internal dissent from the Shiite minority are a lot more sophisticated than Assad's brutish regime - but that aside - we no longer have a pro-democracy movement fighting a totalitarian state - we have a violent sectarian civil war in which all sides are caught in a Hobbsian trap.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
15. I am not sure I can disagree with that.
Sun Sep 8, 2013, 06:13 AM
Sep 2013

I think you could nurture a pro-democracy secularist movement there but it would be near impossible. You could install a junta and that worked in Turkey, but that is also very difficult. I think Syria, sadly, is screwed. There are no winning movies. A lot of people are still going to die no matter what happens. A lot of people. It is heartbreaking.

Heh, honestly, I think I just agreed with you with my post so you can really ignore my "title" saying "I'm not sure I can disagree." I agree.

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