Colorado Legislators Ousted in Recall Over RKBA Issues

[appal_jack]

Last edited Wed Sep 11, 2013, 09:06 AM - Edit history (1)

An epic national debate over gun rights in Colorado on Tuesday saw two Democratic state senators ousted for their support for stricter laws, a "ready, aim, fired" message intended to stop other politicians for pushing for firearms restrictions. Senate President John Morse and Sen. Angela Giron will be replaced in office with Republican candidates who petitioned onto the recall ballot.

(snip)

"Coloradans ... sent a clear message that politicians who blatantly ignore their constituents will be held accountable," said Dustin Zvonek, state director of Americans for Prosperity. "Perhaps this will serve as a lesson that one-party rule in Denver doesn't give the majority license to take things to extremes or run roughshod over the values and rights of Coloradans who just happen, for the moment, to be in the minority."

(snip)

The National Rifle Association, which donated about $360,000 to support the recalls, hailed Morse's loss, telling The Denver Post it "is proud to have stood with the men and women in Colorado who sent a clear message that their Second Amendment rights are not for sale."

But it wasn't just the NRA that warned Democrats about messing with gun rights.

Sen. Lois Tochtrop, an Adams County Democrat and longtime Second Amendment activist, opposed five of the seven gun bills initially introduced in the session, including a lightning-rod proposal by Morse.

That proposal would have assigned liability for assault-style weapon damages to manufacturers and sellers, but Morse killed it at the 11th-hour because he didn't have the votes to pass it through the Democratic-controlled Senate.

"I feel like all these gun bills have done — to quote the last words in the movie 'Tora! Tora! Tora!' — is to awaken a sleeping giant," Tochtrop said during the debate.

Awaken they did.

Upset by the bills themselves and the Senate Democrats' decision to hold seven hearings in one day — resulting in hundreds of witnesses being unable to testify — voters in Morse's and Giron's districts successfully forced the first-ever recall elections of state lawmakers in Colorado history.

Much more at link:

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_24066168/colorado-senate-president-john-morse-recalled-angela-giron


I hate to see Democrats get ousted by Republicans, but maybe these recall votes will finally drive home the lesson that gun control is a losing issue, and not the solution to problems of violence, mental health, poverty, or related matters. Politicians ignore the Second Amendment at their own peril. While I am a proud Democrat, my Democratic heroes (FDR, JFK, and even Jimmy Carter) were not 'gun-grabbers' while in office. I will only actively support candidates who treat the Bill of Rights as a codification of the Supreme Law of the Land.

I look forward to voting for more pro-All-the-Bill-of-Rights Democrats. Are any candidates listening?

Also, I read elsewhere (no link at present) that the pro-recall campaign was outspent by the anti's/gun-grabbers by a ratio of around 6:1 (the last numbers I saw were ~$540k : ~$3 million). Looks like idiot authoritarian Bloomberg pissed away a little more of his fortune.

-app

[Pretzel_Warrior]

1. this is another small sign we are fucked as a nation with corporate shills running everything

let me guess. you're all for this bullshit.

[otohara]

2. Gloating In GD

nothing about it over in their forum.
So yeah, he's all for this bullshit

[Decoy of Fenris]

6. Posted in RKBA two minutes before GD:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172131163

Hardly gloating, given that this was a rather important event that a fair few folks have taken interest in.

[appal_jack]

14. "their forum," huh? Nice solidarity you've got there.

"their forum," huh? Nice solidarity you've got there.

I am a registered Democrat (for 24+ years) attempting to point out a serious error in Democratic Party politics/tactics, and to propose a course correction more in line with the Bill of Rights.

I think that the CO vote pretty much shows what happens when elitists take the reins of the Democratic platform, and treat their own constituents with disdain. The people of CO did not want these gun control bills. Heavy-handed ads & outside money could not and did not change that.

-app

[rl6214]

36. Nice how its called "their forum", where everyone can post

Unlike the gun control forum where any opposing views and you will be banned at the drop of a hat.

[derby378]

45. And then they try to come in and take over "our forum"

Come to think of it, I guess "our forum" really is "their forum" after all.

If they always do what they've always done, they'll always get what they always got. And me, I just want to see more Democrats elected to public office. Something's got to give.

[appal_jack]

13. Exactly how does belief in an individual right = corporate shilling? n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

15. How did corporate shills run it?

Most of the campaign money was spent for gun-control, by a margin of 6 to 1.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/11/us-usa-colorado-election-idUSBRE98A06I20130911
The recall battle drew more than $3.5 million in campaign contributions. But the vast majority of the funds - nearly $3 million - came from opponents of the recall drive who support stricter gun control, figures from the secretary of state's office showed.

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who founded Mayors Against Illegal Guns, wrote a $350,000 personal check to the anti-recall campaigns. Los Angeles billionaire philanthropist Eli Broad kicked in another $250,000 to stave off the recalls.

After claiming victory late on Tuesday, Herpin said the push to derail the recall had "backfired" on the gun control lobby.

"In Colorado, we don't need some New York billionaire telling us what size soft drinks we can have, how much salt to put on our food, or the size of the ammunition magazines on our guns," he said.

[CTyankee]

34. and then there's this...

"While voter turnout is typically low in recall elections, Democrats accused pro-recall activists of engaging in voter suppression tactics. A big blow to Morse and Giron was a ruling that prohibited voting by mail in the election, even though Colorado voters have overwhelmingly relied on mail-in ballots in the past. The decision ignored a state law passed earlier this year that guaranteed a ballot by mail to every registered voter in Colorado, including in a recall election."

Link here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/10/colorado-recall-results_n_3903209.html

[hack89]

42. The voter law was in conflict with the state constitution

The Constitution states that a candidate has up to 15 days to submit signatures so that their name appears on the ballot. Giving candidates 15 days did not leave enough time to print and distribute mail-in ballots.

The voting law conflicted with the state Constitution - the judge said the Constitution takes precedence.

http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/fort-morgan-news/ci_23852132/denver-judge-sides-libertarians-recall-lawsuit

This is the law in question - passed this year by a Democratic legislature and signed by a Democratic Governor

Lawmakers passed HB1303 during the 2013 legislative session in an effort to improve voter participation. It required mail ballots be sent to every voter and that instead of precincts, voter service centers would be open where people could register to vote or change their address through election day. Previously, voters had a 29-day window to register before elections, among the longest blackout periods in the nation.

The new law is getting its first trial run during the recall elections in Pueblo and El Paso counties. Sen. John Morse, D-Colorado Springs, and Sen. Angela Giron, D-Pueblo, are facing recall elections where voters will decide whether to keep them in office or oust them over gun laws they supported last session.

http://gazette.com/county-clerk-discounts-voter-fraud-allegations-in-colorado-recall/article/1505965

The Dem govenor set the date for the election which did not leave enough time to print and mail ballots.

Gov. John Hickenlooper set the recall election date on July 18 for Morse and Giron. Both state senators face recalls for their support of tougher gun laws passed by the Democratic-controlled state legislature this year.

And the repukes joined the Dems in opposing the lawsuit.

In a rare show of bipartisanship, Republicans and Democrats appeared unified in court, saying the 10-day window should have been upheld. With a recall election that voters have to attend in person, lower turnout is likely, which is not beneficial to the Democratic incumbents. And with a third-party candidate now likely to appear on the ballot, Republicans fear a split vote.

http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/fort-morgan-news/ci_23852132/denver-judge-sides-libertarians-recall-lawsuit

[CTyankee]

43. Since this is the handiwork of the Libertarian Party, maybe you could fill us on it's

politics.

And, as I pointed our in elsewhere, the claim of voter suppression has also been voiced by Debbie Wasserman Schultz...but I guess she's crazy...or something...

[hack89]

44. The Libertarian party sued to make the state follow the Constitution and let them gain access to the

is that really voter suppression?

Both the Dems and the Repukes opposed the Libertarians and asked the judge to allow a 10 day period for gathering signatures - which would have allowed time to print and mail ballots. A hell of a RW conspiracy there.

She is just ignorant of the facts.

[Lizzie Poppet]

29. The corporate shills were the ones that lost.

Uber-corporatist Bloomberg and his antigun group donated something like five times what the NRA did.

Oops...

[hollysmom]

3. NO, it only proves, money spent on ads makes voters stupid.

not for a corporate world.

[davepc]

4. So the more money you spend, the less people support your position?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/10/1237859/-As-we-wait-for-Colorado-recall-results-here-s-some-trivia

Democrats dramatically outspent Republicans. Combined, Democratic-aligned groups spent $2.3 million, while GOP-aligned groups spent just $482K—$361K of that directly from the NRA. Indeed, without the NRA, there's no recall. Furthermore, most of the spending on the Democratic side has been from the campaigns themselves, not outside groups. (Note that our fundraising has been directly to the two candidates, which can use the money most effectively.)

You guys contributed about $150K of the $913K raised by Angela Giron (16 percent), and $160K of the 658K raised by John Morse (24 percent).

Democrats have run 2,346 of the 2,490 ads aired in the campaign. The Republicans running in the recalls haven't run a single ad. Now if either Democrat loses this recall, it'll be further proof for my theory that TV advertising is increasingly irrelevant. But this is a special case—Republican wingnuts don't need to be told by the TV box that there's a recall. They're activated and motivated. It's lower-performing Democratic voters that need to be educated and mobilized. Thus it follows that every single Republican ad in the race has been negative, but only two of the nine Democratic ads follow suit.

[Recursion]

5. We had a six to one money advantage

It wasn't the money this time

[hollysmom]

7. then what happened?

[Recursion]

9. My take is depth vs. breadth

Gun control is broadly popular but few people's first issue. But anti gun control voters, while less numerous, are one issue voters. So off year and special elections will always be hard for gun control.

[Lee-Lee]

11. This is true

Gun control also loses the more informed a voter is, in most cases.

You will find lots of broad, simple, unmotivated support for ideas like "universal background checks".

When you explain to people exactly what that means instead of using just a simple term like "universal background checks", you loose some of that support. That is what happened during the last debate about federal legislation, when I explained in detail what it would require when loaning or selling a gun even between hunting buddies who both already owned guns, or even all the required steps for CCW holders who were exempt from the check, support faded. It became " I support it, but not done like that where it is such a pain and costs money."

I suspect that is some of what happened in CO, broad support for a catch phrase idea evaporated when faced with the reality of how it was implemented.

That, and the inability of the leadership of this party to grasp that not every Democrat is a suburban or urban, rich, art gallery champagne party attending, Garrison Keillor type. The party that is supposed to be all about the common person and worker still has some of both, and down at the union halls gun control is very unpopular.

[appal_jack]

41. Valid analysis, well-stated. n/t

[Lizzie Poppet]

31. Agreed, with a small caveat:

The caveat being that a lot of voters have "dealbreakers" on more than on issue...and gun control is often one of those issues for those that oppose increasing it. Other dealbreaker issues might be abortion, healthcare reform, etc...

[hollysmom]

47. ugh, I have a friend like that that became a republican over abortion but

is a liberal on everything else, like her gay son

[GreenStormCloud]

17. Simple. THE PEOPLE don't want gun control. N/T

[backscatter712]

18. How much dark money?

I suspect that may not be in the statistics.

[Niceguy1]

30. it isn't always about money

Although it makes an easy scapegoat

[gtar100]

8. How epically stupid of us Coloradans for replacing Democratic representatives with repugs.

I'm sure the contingency of people who don't care about anything other than money are giddy with delight about this outcome. We get two more representatives now who won't do shit about pollution, poverty, immigration, wealth inequality, healthcare, public education, or gun violence. We get instead individuals who will work their asses off to further deregulate oil and gas industries, move more of our public funds into fewer private hands, and celebrate corporate personhood over real personhood in all their decisions. Big fucking message the people sent all right. Guns matter so much more than people. I get that this is the kind of world we live in.

Fucking NRA leaves a trail of tears in the wake of their work. May they and all their supporters reap what they sow.

[Wabbajack_]

10. "I hate to see Democrats get ousted by Republicans"

Really? Sounds like you're celebrating.

[RetroLounge]

12. Yup, sounds that way

RL

[appal_jack]

16. Wow, arrogance personified.

Wow, arrogance personified. Because my belief in the US Constitution trumps narrow Party loyalty on an issue when these particular Democrats have been demonstrably in the wrong, you know exactly what else about me?

Did you go to the Bill Frist School of Telecommuting Diagnostics? (psst - he's a Republican)

-app

[Wabbajack_]

21. So you aren't celebrating?

I honestly can't tell whether you wanted the Republicans to win or not.

[appal_jack]

37. It's called a silver-lining, not a victory.

It's called a silver-lining, not a victory, nor really a cause for celebration. Do I hope that Democratic politicians get the message that the RKBA ought to be respected and upheld as an individual right? Yes. Do I prefer Democrats over Republicans in general? Also yes.

A ways upthread, there is a discussion of 'dealbreaker issues.' For me, the big dealbreaker is reproductive freedom. I will never, ever vote for an anti-choice politician of any party, as the government nosing its way into the medical decisions of women in such a manner is to me the personification of malicious big government nanny-state bullshit over-reach.

I would like to be able to say that I would also only vote for pro-privacy, pro-free-speech, pro-RKBA, pro-single-payer-healthcare, anti-corporate-power candidates, but then I wouldn't be able to vote for hardly anyone in America, alas. I have often held my nose and voted for Democrats whose RKBA stances I found disturbing: my votes for Bill Clinton and Barack Obama should be counted among these.

As I've said throughout this thread, I wish that Democratic candidates would state that their respect for freedom extends fully to the RKBA, just as it does (er, should) extend to a woman's right to choose her reproductive destiny, and Occupy's (& all other citizen groups') right to petition the government for redress of grievance.

Supporting the Constitution is a winning issue. Those Democrats whose actions indicate that they might have forgotten this fact need to re-learn it, post-haste.

-app

[LonePirate]

20. Agreed. He's not unhappy Democrats lost and Republicans won.

That almost sounds like it is in the neighborhood of a ToS violation.

[appal_jack]

50. It sounds like you don't have an argument.

That almost sounds like it is in the neighborhood of a ToS violation.

I have made my membership in the Democratic Party clear in the OP, and in responses #37 & #48, as well as in dozens of past posts available for your perusal in my DU Journal. The voters of CO have spoken. Democrats should take heed. As a proud Democrat, I'm posting this in order to move that process along, thank you very much.

-app

[backscatter712]

19. Your concern is noted. n/t

[stevenleser]

22. I hated unRec, but even I would have used it on this OP for your third to last paragraph.

These guys did the right thing if not the politically astute thing. The second amendment is killing crazy amounts of our population.

The lesson here is that in states that love their guns, you cannot do this. But the lesson is not that the 2nd amendment is a good thing.

[appal_jack]

48. The 'right thing' is to abide by (or work to change) the Constitution.

The 'right thing' to do is to abide by the Constitution. The US Constitution is by design a guarantee of freedoms for the individual, and a set of limited powers granted to the government, intended to function as the Supreme Law of the Land. If you happen to find a section of the Constitution such as the 2nd Amendment abhorrent, you are free to work to change it via the process for Constitutional Amendment.

Politicians (and bloggers/broadcasters such as yourself Steven), who oppose parts of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, but are too lazy or uncertain of their chances to bother trying to change the Constitution itself, do a disservice to their constituents. Far too many unconstitutional laws have been passed in my lifetime - not just restrictions on the 2nd Amendment, but 'free speech zones,' the whole war on drugs, various forms of warrantless surveillance, restrictions on the freedom to make medical decisions in private with one's own doctor, etc. Compared to some of these unconstitutional power grabs, the Colorado laws about magazine capacity, etc. are far from the worst out there. Nonetheless, the politicians who passed them, over the vocal objections of their constituents, did not 'do the right thing.' Rather, they displayed an ignorance of what should be Civics 101, and wasted the time and money of the citizens of Colorado. And in this case, they also suffered a successful recall by their angry constituents. Maybe this will send a message to Democratic strategists across the country that further gun control is not the cause they should be pushing; it's a waste of political capital that serves no one.

-app

[stevenleser]

49. The SCOTUS interprets the Constitution, not you. As in District of Columbia v. Heller...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html

The court has consistently held:

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.

[appal_jack]

56. Fortunately in Heller, all nine justices affirmed the RKBA.

Fortunately in Heller, all nine Supreme Court justices agreed that the Second Amendment protected an individual Right to Keep & Bear Arms (RKBA); the dissents only varied in degree and scope. The restrictions you cite via the paragraph you quote are widely accepted as reasonable (though the increasing 'felonization' of various victimless crimes certainly gives me pause). And while the earlier case of Miller is widely seen as a very flawed Supreme Court decision (Miller's side had no representation in front of the court), 'Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time,”' means that semi-auto variants of the Kalashnikov, AR-pattern rifles, and all of the typical 'wonder-nine' pistols (Glocks, S&W's, HK's, CZ's, etc.) all fall well-within this sphere of protection, as these are the firearms now in common usage. Standard capacity magazines for each of these pistols and rifles vary in size from 15-30 rounds, so the Colorado law (and other state-level AWB's like it) definitely very much violate the letter of Heller and both the spirit and letter of the Second Amendment.

-app

[aikoaiko]

23. Assault Weapons Bans are risky for Democrats

We saw that nationally after the 1994 ban and Bill Clinton warned us about it in his memoirs.

They may work in some states, but clearly not all and especially not nationally.

And sadly, there is no evidence that AWBs actually save any lives. Its like banning cars with spoilers hoping car accidents go down.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

24. Cars are not guns.

Again, let me repeat.

Cars are not guns.

[aikoaiko]

25. very good, you understand the basis for an analogy.

If cars were guns, then what I said wouldn't be an analogy.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

26. I understand the basis for a false analogy.

Analogies assume that the two things within the comparison are at least somewhat comparable.

Cars are not remotely similar to guns.

It's a false analogy.

[Lizzie Poppet]

32. An analogy need not apply to all aspects to be valid.

That is, the point being made was that prohibiting something on the basis of superficial cosmetics is poor policy. Guns and cares are analogous in that aspect: both possess cosmetic features that have minimal effect on functionality. The fact that cars and guns differ in so many other ways doesn't invalidate that narrowly-focused analogy.

[aikoaiko]

33. Its only false to you because it works against your position.

[earthside]

27. All politics is local.

I'm not especially concerned over these recall outcomes.

Each district was problematic for a Democrat on a strictly 'gun' issue.
The Libertarian's court challenge that resulted in no mail ballot also made a significant difference in turnout.

Big picture in Colorado is that the two major pieces of gun legislation -- 15 round magazine limit and universal background checks -- are quite popular among the majority of citizens. They are also clearly constitutional and reasonable laws that aren't much negatively effecting anyone.

Republicans in Colorado are having a terrible time in coming up with credible, sane, reasonable candidates for the major offices up next year ... Governor, U.S. Senator, statewide offices.

Indeed, my prediction is that these set backs will cause the state Democratic Party to take absolutely nothing for granted next year and may well have the results of improving the margins for Democrats in the state House and Senate.

And ... their success in these recalls may have the effect of encouraging the Tea Party-Gun Idolators-Repuglicans to get even more crazy, extreme, hateful and mean.

[CTyankee]

28. Oh, sweetie, did you see THIS?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=323376

Seems like voter suppression tactics were going on...

Nothing like changing the rules to change the outcome, is there?

[sarisataka]

39. Unfortunately that rule

was a (new) rule change that went against the old rule, resulting in changing (back to the old) rules to change the outcome.
Short answer- the mail in voting rule change was against the CO constitution so the whole mail in vote got tossed.

After a long day in court, District Judge Robert McGahey ruled in favor of Colorado Libertarians, who’d sued after being denied a spot on the recall ballot because they failed to meet a deadline, put in place by the new election law, to submit petitions within 10 days of the election date being set.
McGahey agreed with the plaintiffs that the state constitution — which has, for 101 years, allowed candidates up to within 15 days of an election to submit their petitions — takes precedence over the new and, ultimately, flawed law.

http://kdvr.com/2013/08/12/judges-ruling-means-no-mail-ballots-in-recall-elections/

Maybe a case could be made to invalidate the election based on Equal Protection so then go change the mail ballot rule to match the constitution then redo the recall vote...

[rl6214]

35. Well said

[Bandit]

38. So you don't care if Republicans have control as long as you can have an assault weapon?

If you think Republicans will make your life easier then go ahead and vote for them but IMO single issue voters deserve all they get.

[appal_jack]

40. See my response #37 to Wabbajack.

See my response #37 to Wabbajack. But if you just want the abridged version then, no, I don't vote for Republicans. Instead, I spend time and effort speaking-up for the RKBA within Democratic circles.

-app

[derby378]

46. Good for you

I organized a gun caucus within the Texas Democratic Party back in 2008. Sometimes, the only way to effect change is by speaking up.

[appal_jack]

54. I've long admired your work in TX Derby378!

I've long admired your work in TX Derby378! I recall checking out your website back in 2008 or so, and feel that we are speaking for an important demographic as we advocate for progressive, pro2A Democrats.



-app

[bowens43]

51. the lunatics seem to be running the asylum. you have to be a fucking idiot to something like this

[gopiscrap]

52. fucking NRA, Koch brothers and other gun nut assholes

we need to get big money out of politics

[HolyMoley]

55. Would that include NYC Mayor Micheal Bloomburg?

[gopiscrap]

57. yup

[deathrind]

53. America...

Racing it's way back to the 1800's at it's best possible speed.