General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsColorado recall votes bode ill for 2014 and 2016.
The public has accepted the RW as legit and we still think they are just the a fringe group.
The election map will have very few blue states for the next 12 yrs.
Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)Democrats. So we are constantly told to ignore them. This weird group that constantly is in decline but yet, still manages to insert themselves into every part of our daily life if we like it or not.
So don't worry, be happy and you too will be called a "chicken little" very soon.
razorman
(1,644 posts)sounded numerous times for both parties. Every time an election swings one way or the other, there are those who predict that this means the imminent end of the party that just lost. I simply take all such predictions with a grain of salt. Alz I know is that life is a sinister plot aimed at me. (Yes, I meant to spell it that way.)
malaise
(268,997 posts)and those against gun laws will have to do the same. Something must be wrong with people if those Columbine and cinema deaths did not influence the outcome of this election.
Life cannot be that cheap. Fuck the NRA
hack89
(39,171 posts)is it that hard to accept that there are Dems that support gun rights and ignoring them comes at a price?
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)ammunition magazines? The majority of Americans support a universal background check. Democrats stance on education turned me independent. I am so very sad to see the democratic party take such a turn to the right. I'm not saying no one should be allowed to own a gun. After all if the Tea Party nut jobs are the only ones with guns when a national disaster does happen we will be in big trouble. However, to be against gun control measures such as background checks sounds extreme to me.
hack89
(39,171 posts)jamming all that legislation through in a very short time with little time for rational debate and public input.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)something is wrong.
hack89
(39,171 posts)that didn't happen in Colorado.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)and prevent a Sandy Hook shooting in CO. Columbine happened in Colorado. My daughter's school had such a credible threat against it last year the FBI got involved. How many school shootings have to happen before we take some sort of action?
hack89
(39,171 posts)secondly, the laws we are talking about would not have prevented Sandy Hook, Aurora or Columbine. Which is why it appeared as political opportunism to many.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)this crap again. Luckily my local legislators are voting for gun control and our people are not rejecting.
hack89
(39,171 posts)have you been to Castle Bansalot? It is a dissent free zone perhaps more to your liking.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1262
spin
(17,493 posts)I personally refuse to sell any of my firearms to a person:
1) Who does not live in my home state, Florida.
2) That I do not have personally known for a lengthy period of time such a year or more.
3) Who does not have a valid Florida Concealed Weapons Permit. I wouldn't sell a shotgun to a person who does not have this license even though such a weapon might be difficult to conceal.
I felt that after the recent tragic massacres caused by firearms in our nation, we would be able to make some real progress in passing some much needed legislation to improve the gun laws in our nation.
Unfortunately senator Dianne Feinstein seized an opportunity to push for a new and improved assault weapons ban. I admire her for many of her efforts but I feel the effort to reinstate another assault weapons ban was the overreach that doomed any hopes I had of any significant improvements to our national firearm laws.
I have suggested many times here on DU that if gun control advocates wish to make significant headway at the national level they need to ban the use of the word "ban."
It is my opinion that in many states it is possible to pass strong control legislation but the effort to pass this legislation at a national level is doomed to failure. However this MAY change in the next decade or two or three.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)all in the name of voting in NRA-backed repubs?? Not the kind of fuckin' Dem I'd want on my side...
and for the record, if you *honestly* think the NRA spent that little (I mean real amounts, and not the amount officially declared for paperwork), I don't know what else to tell you...
hack89
(39,171 posts)the vast majority were against the recall. Where exactly was the NRA spending all that secret money?
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)than for it...the gun fetishists got all riled up over common sense, and they're the ones who voted.
hack89
(39,171 posts)but that being the case, it has to be accounted for when you are attempting to introduce gun control laws. The Dems in CO were not smart about how they approached passing gun control legislation and it bit them in the ass.
wild bird
(421 posts)It tells us that these 2 otherwise capable Democrats didn't listen to what their constituents really wanted on the guns issue, plus the fact that these bills were percieved to have been rushed through without the proper debate and public input and you get the perfect storm.
Like I said, you can't blame the loss of these 2 Democrats on the pro recall forces when they were outspent by a margin of 6-1 by the anti recall force.
And for Ms. Giron to lose by that margin in a Dem. district would mean a whole lot of Dems. voted for the recall..
CK_John
(10,005 posts)TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)You have to where to look for it. Start with the letters G.O.P.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)Not only by the NRA but by Gabby Giffords PAC. Can't blame this one one the NRA. These reps did it to themselves.
wild bird
(421 posts)And the anti recall forces out spent the pro recall forces by a margin of 6-1 and yet, they still lost.
How do you explain that?
I'm not happy at all with the results, but money didn't seem to make a difference this time around.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)CK_John
(10,005 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I agree with the OP.
wild bird
(421 posts)you'd think so.
I'm pro gun control, but I also know when to cut bait and run.
These 2 Democrats very obviously didn't listen to what their constituents wanted in the way of gun control laws and they paid the price.
All my children are grown and gone, but I have a black cat that will run and hide in the closet at the first thunder boomie.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)And are not willing to support Democrats who attempt to abridge that right. All Giron and Morse had to do was vote against the gun bills, and they would still be in office. But they chose not to do that and we see the consequences. Furthermore, both her and Morse refuse to accept that it was their own fault. Politicians who lose seldom do.
I have seen very few politicians ever say:
"I was obviously wrong on the issues, and that is why the voters tuned me out of office."
wild bird
(421 posts)I was even told to go back to the RKBA group and gloat, even though I rarely post there, I usually post in the other gun group.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)People seldom want to hear that they are wrong on an issue. No matter how many elections supporting an issue costs them, they like Morse, still feel "that they are in the right."
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)I have voted for my assault-weapon-banning congressman for years; I'm not one-issue. But some controllers seem bent on steering for the rocks everytime.
I hope the Colorado vote is not a harbinger of things to come, unless it is a serious re-assessment of gun politics in the Party, and on DU.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Coloradans are used to having mail in ballots and the overwhelming numbers of voters use them. It is state law. But that was ignored in this contest. I am hopeful that this will be taken to court and there will be a re-vote, giving enough time for ballots to be printed.
There's your explanation, wild bird...
hack89
(39,171 posts)regarding the time allowed for candidates to gather signatures to get on the ballot. A judge says the constitution took precedence over the voting law - which one would expect.
The voting law was flawed and needs to be fixed.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)the recall vote was legal under Colorado law. There are no do overs.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)to be happening all over the country, don't you think, hack? Whatta coinkydinky!
hack89
(39,171 posts)The new law is getting its first trial run during the recall elections in Pueblo and El Paso counties. Sen. John Morse, D-Colorado Springs, and Sen. Angela Giron, D-Pueblo, are facing recall elections where voters will decide whether to keep them in office or oust them over gun laws they supported last session.
http://gazette.com/county-clerk-discounts-voter-fraud-allegations-in-colorado-recall/article/1505965
They simply wrote and passed a flawed law. They need to fix it.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)CK_John
(10,005 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)the lesson learned is not to assume that Dem voters automatically support for all gun control measures.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)state law and overwhelmingly used by Colorado voters). Ain't it funny how that "worked"? Surprise, surprise, voters!
hack89
(39,171 posts)the Constitution states that a candidate has up to 15 days to submit signatures so that their name appears on the ballot. Giving candidates 15 days did not leave enough time to print and distribute mail-in ballots.
The voting law conflicted with the state Constitution - the judge said the Constitution takes precedence.
http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/fort-morgan-news/ci_23852132/denver-judge-sides-libertarians-recall-lawsuit
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Suppressing the vote takes some planning, as we have seen abroad in this land with the RW doing it in every state they can, thinking up every clever way they can to limit the number of voters because that is the ONLY way they can win.
hack89
(39,171 posts)The new law is getting its first trial run during the recall elections in Pueblo and El Paso counties. Sen. John Morse, D-Colorado Springs, and Sen. Angela Giron, D-Pueblo, are facing recall elections where voters will decide whether to keep them in office or oust them over gun laws they supported last session.
http://gazette.com/county-clerk-discounts-voter-fraud-allegations-in-colorado-recall/article/1505965
I know you are unhappy with the results but did you ever consider doing some basic research before posting?
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)I know you are happy with the results and I'm sure you think this is just a coincidence, strangely enough.
Move along, folks, nothing to see here...
hack89
(39,171 posts)you are flailing here.
And you fail to note that the repukes opposed the lawsuit as well.
http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/fort-morgan-news/ci_23852132/denver-judge-sides-libertarians-recall-lawsuit
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)because she is calling this "voter suppression."
I wonder why?
hack89
(39,171 posts)Because that is exactly what she claimed happened.
She appears to be ignorant of what happened Colorado..
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Dems here at democraticunderground in the dark...
hack89
(39,171 posts)The Constitution states that a candidate has up to 15 days to submit signatures so that their name appears on the ballot. Giving candidates 15 days did not leave enough time to print and distribute mail-in ballots.
The voting law conflicted with the state Constitution - the judge said the Constitution takes precedence.
With Monday's ruling, Libertarians, and any other potential candidates, now have until Aug. 26 to gather enough signatures to get on the ballot making the tight turnaround impossible for clerks to then print and mail ballots to voters. "It cannot be ignored," McGahey said of the state constitution in his oral decision from the bench.
McGahey also called House Bill 1303, a sweeping elections bill passed by Democrats this year that requires all mail-in elections, "flawed" as it conflicts with the constitution.
According to the state statute cited by Gessler's office, a 10-day window from July 18, when the governor set the recall election date, allows candidates to submit 1,000 signatures to the secretary of state's office to have their names appear on the ballot.
http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/fort-morgan-news/ci_23852132/denver-judge-sides-libertarians-recall-lawsuit
This is the law in question - passed this year by a Democratic legislature and signed by a Democratic Governor
The new law is getting its first trial run during the recall elections in Pueblo and El Paso counties. Sen. John Morse, D-Colorado Springs, and Sen. Angela Giron, D-Pueblo, are facing recall elections where voters will decide whether to keep them in office or oust them over gun laws they supported last session.
http://gazette.com/county-clerk-discounts-voter-fraud-allegations-in-colorado-recall/article/1505965
The Dem governor set the date for the election which did not leave enough time to print and mail ballots.
And the repukes joined the Dems in opposing the lawsuit.
http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/fort-morgan-news/ci_23852132/denver-judge-sides-libertarians-recall-lawsuit
wild bird
(421 posts)Even though she doesn't even live there.
I believe Hack69 has provided all the proof needed, yet, for some reason, you refuse to accept it.
I think that in 2014, these seats will be Democrats hands.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)She should know something about the party she chaired...
I think that with all the voter suppression going on in so many states, it is a wise fear that this is, too. As a strong Democrat, I share that fear. We've seen it recently again and again.
However, there is another suspicion I have and that is the effort to convince Dems that the electorate is really and truly AGAINST gun control, so Dems had better dump it as a campaign issue. And so, conveniently enough, this "fits" right in with that theory. So give up gun control, Dems! Don't talk about it any more. It's a loser as a campaign issue. Don't even THINK about advocating it...it's all over and you'll be sorry if you bring it up again...yadda, yadda...
wild bird
(421 posts)I think you know my position on gun control, I won't give up despite the setbacks, and in my opinion, this is a minor one, but politicians should also listen to their constituents before voting on bills, and in this case, that seems to not be the case.
But, like Wasser-Schultz, I don't live there, I have to rely on those like yourself and the newspapers to find out what"s happening there.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)don't deny that. However, to read some of the gun people here it just fell out of the clear blue sky. I think a healthy dose of skepticism should be called for when I start seeing RW websites making the same arguments that some of our pro gun DUers are making. And if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck...
wild bird
(421 posts)what I'm having a hard time figuring out is why, despite being outspent 6-1 by the anti recall forces, how the hell did we lose? Especially in Ms. Giron's district?
This leads me to believe that either Dem's in CO. were too complacent, or, those 2 Sen. didn't really listen to their constituents, much to their chagrin now.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)he makes some interesting points about how the Repubs are having to rely on recall elections to win anything...and I might add, that keeping it from being a mail in balloting question diminished Dem strength and the NRA knew and this and planned for it. This was not a coincidence at all.
As for the issue of being outspent, Mike Bloomberg is a New Yorker and Jewish. As a kid growing up in Texas I heard a lot about Jewish New Yorkers, not from my family but from people who didn't know any better. I hate to think that this kind of prejudice is still alive and well in some places in this country, but it does make me wonder.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)It is and always has been a loser. We need to promote and elect representatives that won't support that sort of losing legislation.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Don't believe those polls...look over here...see, see!
rl6214
(8,142 posts)I care about the facts.
brooklynite
(94,553 posts)Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Carnage251
(562 posts)TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)You realize how many times your type of premise has been disproven, right?
CK_John
(10,005 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)They carefully picked who to recall and poured a lot of money into it.
The election map is not going to change in the direction your glass ball predicts. Remember this:
People don't change. The old ones die. Nature is on the side of the Left!
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Tons of outside the district money came in to these elections -- that won't be available next time through. Gun Lunatics voted like crazy in these recalls, and turn-out was down otherwise because, among other things, there was no voting by mail.
NickB79
(19,240 posts)The NRA was outspent 6-to-1 by Bloomberg's gun control organization, yet still won.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)It's all about the gamesmanship. It goes something like this. Republicans cannot compete in major presidential-type elections in many places they need to compete in order to remain viable. So...they lose in major election years; they're going to continue to lose in major election years. They're going to continue to lose on big issues too on the national scale. The tide is against them and rather than fighting back to the center, they're letting it pull them further out for fear of losing a shrinking voting base of reactionary conservatives. (Very old people and Christians...both are on the decline.) In fact, their ability to win off-season elections is constantly decreasing and will continue to decrease because all the motivation in the world will not cover up for their lack of ability to attract new young Republicans at a fast enough rate to offset their death-attrition. If they don't change tack, they're going to wake up soon and find they've got a CAGOP problem nationally...not enough Republicans to be relevant and too irrelevant to be in position to stop their attrition.
What they do have is a high-motivation reserve based on angst over their increasing marginalization. (This is universal, the waning party always has this in ever-increasing degrees as they watch the opposition do what they consider "ruining America" This plays into the fact they also have an innocuous tool called the recall that very few on the left realize is fucking awful for Democrats currently because it creates even-more-off-season elections. In all but the most liberal Democratic-lock places recalls are surefire wins for the Republicans consistently. High-motivation is directly causative of impetus to vote...they vote in the elections they're going to get crushed in, but they turn out in nearly the same numbers for the off-year and recall elections.
The dominant party does not...we're by-and-large not as angry or motivated as they are...we have our President in the White House, we're seeing our policy initiative needs met (Hooray marriage equality, huzzah capital-punishment repeal, three cheers for gun control, chip chip cheerio Obamacare!), we win more partisan fights than we lose. Life is pretty good. We don't have that drive to combat them "ruining America."
Further, it does not take a large portion of the population of a district to issue a recall...that could have been achieved solely out of the voter-pool of the district that supported the loser in the last election. Consider these factors together...it only takes the losing Republican voters from the last election to recall an elected official and Republicans are highly-motivated to turn out for a very-off-cycle election while Democrats are highly-unmotivated to turn out. Does it make more sense to take away from the recall election that the reason we lost seats in the recall was because the very occurrence of the recall favored the Republicans or to take away that we lost the recall because we passed gun control that the majority of the residents of those districts support? When you get the answer to that one, it's a short leap to figure put why 2014 and 2016 do not favor the Republicans. (Hint: Their turnout remains steady...ours goes from being smaller than theirs to much larger than theirs.)
For a forum full of political wonks, it's mildly irritating to have to explain to you why you're all Chicken Littling. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! We lost an election we were certain to lose the moment the petitions were filed, no matter how much money we spent or GOTV we did or the conditions on the ground. The Republicans know this...they know recalls favor them when it's Democrats being recalled...and recalls favor them when it's Republicans being recalled. That's why the number of recalls is increasing. It's why they support recall statutes in the states. It's why they don't fight Democrats too hard when Democrats try to pass recall statutes.
Recalls, midterms and special elections are the only way they're keeping themselves in it...it's going to continue to be. We're going to win the WH again in 2016 and probably pick up seats everywhere due to coattails; they going to chip themselves back into spitting range in both the state legislatures and Congress through midterms, recalls and special elections. There is some sense they may even do the almost-unprecedented and lose seats in the midterms.
CTyankee
(63,912 posts)Doesn't that tell us something right there?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)...oh wait, we did. Looking forward to 2014 wherein the Democratic Party will tell us that there's nothing that could be done, again.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)That is, I don't think those results should be seen as some sort of general legitimization of the RW, but instead as a reaction to a very specific, narrow issue. Gun control is a major hot button issue for many, many voters, a great many of whom generally vote for liberal candidates. This was a single-issue vote.