No, Putin isn't being smart. Obama is running rings around him

[ProSense]

No, Putin isn't being smart. Obama is running rings around him

by Brit

So over on Motley Moose, Shaun Appleby has brilliantly dissected the first rounds of the diplomatic game about a UN resolution over chemical weapons control.

As he points out, the key thing is whether any chemical weapons resolution over Syria is chapter VII, or chapter VI. The former allows the use of force. Putin is arguing that force should be removed from the equation. But as Shaun points out, this could be in defiance of the UN's own charter which explains the exigent nature of Chapter VII resolutions.

Article 42: Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.
Charter of the United Nations: Chapter VII UN

So now the ball is in Putin's court - and of course Assad's.

I've been a strong critic of the sudden move to intervention over the summer. I felt the case was not made. I don't believe in punitive actions in humanitarian intervention. I only believe (as in Bosnia, Kosovo and Libya) in actions which prevent harm.

And sometimes, yes, you have to bomb gun emplacements raining terror on innocent civilians. Sometimes, yes, there is the price of a smaller violence to pay to prevent a bigger one.

This current mess/debate/fuckup call it what you will, is proper preparation. It gives the bad faith actors enough rope to hang themselves, and focuses laser-like on the conventions of non chemical weapon use.

I'm still surprised (a little) that this pathway/trap wasn't prepared before. Now everything is open to scrutiny, and the conspiracy theorists, peak oil fanatics, and Putinapologists are being forced into a nice tight corner. These same people said protecting the Bosnians against Milosevic would be a disaster. These same people said protecting Kosovars against Milosevic would be a disaster.

Meanwhile, on the right, the Neocons who hijacked international standards for their own weird quasi rational eschatology, will also be forced into a corner. Do they really want everything or nothing? Are they so addicted to the to erotics of power that they see a cruise missile launch as the ultimate shock and awe come-shot? (apologies for that image)

Once again, by bending to people and circumstance, but keeping his ultimate goals in view, Obama has proved himself as the best community organiser for the international community.

It isn't about leading from the front, dressed in an airman's jacket behind a banner saying Mission Accomplished. It's actually about a real mission - making the world a safer place taking heed of all its various participants.

What pundits call weakness in Obama, I call his biggest strength.

Let's hope - not for his sake - but for the millions of refugees, the hundreds of thousands who may yet die if the civil war continues unabated, that resolution of the Syrian conflict is finally uppermost in people's mind, and the post colonial games (by Saudi Arabia, Iran and Israel as much as Britain, Russia, France and the US) may finally stop

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/11/1238177/-No-Putin-isn-t-being-smart-Obama-is-running-rings-around-him

[dennis4868]

2. I agree with everything in your post!

Thanks for that. The RWNJ and EMOS will never give Obama credit for anything. They will not allow themselves to do it.

[Enrique]

3. Obama is actually working with Putin

their interests actually converge here. Neither of them wants the U.S. to attack Syria. Isn't that a good thing?

[ProSense]

4. Yes,

"Obama is actually working with Putin their interests actually converge here. Neither of them wants the U.S. to attack Syria. Isn't that a good thing?"

...but Putin isn't letting that get in the way of making bogus claims: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023650068

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. I'd say the threat of US force has pretty much passed

There will be no AUMF. There will be no US involvement. The WH is quite grateful to get this behind them. Syria, Russia and the rebels will go back to doing what they were doing 3 weeks ago: slaughtering each other with wild abandon.

[Wilms]

19. :cough:

Report: CIA Begins Delivering Weapons to Rebels in Syria - U.S. Officials, Syrian Figures
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014592583

I call that US force.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

40. If you must.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. "the best community organiser for the international community"

By continuing the neocon policy of unilateralism under the banner of American Exceptionalism Obama is proceeding with the work that Bush II started to destroy and render irrelevant international treaties and international organizations.

It is time to stop with that nonsense.

[ProSense]

8. That's just nonsense.

Obama is thinking FDR and JFK, and you're stuck on Bush comparison.

Obama isn't Bush.

[NuclearDem]

9. *gag*

Funneling weapons to rebel groups in ME countries to put pressure on Russian allies is right out of Reagan's playbook.

[ProSense]

11. Nonsense.

Maybe you should go puke that up somewhere else.

[NuclearDem]

12. Look up Operation Cyclone and tell me how well that went.

[ProSense]

15. Why? The claim is nonsense. n/t

[NuclearDem]

16. Arming rebel fighters in the Middle East where a country is on the verge of collapse.

It's a direct parallel.

If Syria isn't stabilized immediately after Assad is overthrown, it's going to come back to bite us in 20 years.

[ProSense]

20. No, you're the one making the parallel. n/t

[NuclearDem]

22. You're never actually going to argue the point are you?

[ProSense]

23. Why would I "argue" a nonsensical point? n/t

[AgingAmerican]

39. Obviously you can't

nt

[sheshe2]

26. You may need to go see a doctor.

If you vomit to much you will become dehydrated. I suggest plenty of fluids.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. What exactly do you think the phrase "American Exceptionalism" means?

Oh and as a bonus question: are you aware that it is a war crime to threaten another nation with military force outside of a UN resolution authorizing such actions?

FDR helped get the UN going before he died, JFK was a strong supporter of working with the international community through international organizations within the treaty defined processes. Obama has made it clear that he is continuing Bush II neocon unilateralism.

Obama isn't Bush, but he is continuing policies that were odious when Bush was doing them. They remain odious, even if the person in charge is not Bush.

But I digress, how are we going to get our war on?

[ProSense]

18. It means not believing Putin propaganda.

"Oh and as a bonus question: are you aware that it is a war crime to threaten another nation with military force outside of a UN resolution authorizing such actions? "

Reread the OP. Putin's actions resulted in a couple of interesting things: 1) Acknowledging Assad's chemical arsenal and 2) Assad agreeing to sign the chemical weapons ban.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. A typical non-answer, a complete avoidance.

Obama's speech kept unilateral war on the table, a threat of aggression that is itself a violation of our treaty obligations as a UN member state. He did so within the framework of neocon American Exceptionalism, using that exact phrase, continuing the Bush PNAC agenda.

[ProSense]

43. Nonsense, and

"Obama's speech kept unilateral war on the table, a threat of aggression that is itself a violation of our treaty obligations as a UN member state. He did so within the framework of neocon American Exceptionalism, using that exact phrase, continuing the Bush PNAC agenda."

... Putin mischaracterzied the President's point, and clearly doesn't understand what it means.

From the President's speech:

Franklin Roosevelt once said, “Our national determination to keep free of foreign wars and foreign entanglements cannot prevent us from feeling deep concern when ideals and principles that we have cherished are challenged.” Our ideals and principles, as well as our national security, are at stake in Syria, along with our leadership of a world where we seek to ensure that the worst weapons will never be used.

America is not the world’s policeman. Terrible things happen across the globe, and it is beyond our means to right every wrong. But when, with modest effort and risk, we can stop children from being gassed to death, and thereby make our own children safer over the long run, I believe we should act. That’s what makes America different. That’s what makes us exceptional. With humility, but with resolve, let us never lose sight of that essential truth.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023642111

[babylonsister]

28. He doesn't want to go to war. How difficult is

that to figure out?

Wow.

[Amonester]

36. They are afraid pout-in is gonna get crazier than he already is and fire the first shot

all the while he is preparing to retire with the billions he stole.

[ProSense]

38. Graphic:

[Warren Stupidity]

41. Apparently you read words I didn't write.

Wow. But not really unusual. What does the term "American Exceptionalism", used by Obama, mean? Where are its origins. What ideology is it the banner phrase for?

[robinlynne]

34. That phrase made me a bit nauseus...

[bigtree]

7. he's actually advantaging a cynical politics off of Putin's proposal

. . . knowing full well that it is an insincere offer and that it's unlikely that Syria will follow through.

This is about selling to a recalcitrant Congress that the administration has 'exhausted' all diplomatic efforts.

The WH embrace of Putin's initiative is theater; a stalking horse for their determination to introduce military force in Syria.

[ProSense]

10. You're saying Putin is "insincere"? n/t

[bigtree]

17. it's proponents of the admin's embrace of Putin's plan who need to answer questions like that

I don't think you have a problem reading what I wrote here.

[Cha]

13. "A real mission".. exactly, ProSense..

"Once again, by bending to people and circumstance, but keeping his ultimate goals in view, Obama has proved himself as the best community organiser for the international community.

It isn't about leading from the front, dressed in an airman's jacket behind a banner saying Mission Accomplished. It's actually about a real mission - making the world a safer place taking heed of all its various participants.

What pundits call weakness in Obama, I call his biggest strength.

Let's hope - not for his sake - but for the millions of refugees, the hundreds of thousands who may yet die if the civil war continues unabated, that resolution of the Syrian conflict is finally uppermost in people's mind, and the post colonial games (by Saudi Arabia, Iran and Israel as much as Britain, Russia, France and the US) may finally stop."

Thank you~

[gulliver]

21. It wasn't the immediate threat of force as much as the likelihood...

...of force down the road, imo. The Congress might have reluctantly voted down a strike this time, but that would basically just leave us on a hair trigger.

[ProSense]

25. "Your" still...

never mind.

[Purveyor]

27. That, imo is borderline 'bullying'... eom

[ProSense]

32. No, it isn't n/t

[sheshe2]

30. Some people just won't ever get it.

Everyone wants to be the hero, and I’m pretty sure, in those 20 minutes, Obama planted the seeds and painted a vision in Putin’s mind that the Russian leader could be exactly that. You can’t deny the timing of Putin’s announcement, so soon after he conversed with Obama. If there’s one thing for negotiators can learn from the attempts at Syria-related diplomacy over the past few days – and Putin’s involvement in it – it’s this. Great negotiators never take credit. It’s always the other side’s idea. And I suspect there was quite a bit of that going on during those 20 minutes.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcamp/2013/09/11/obamas-magnificent-stealth-negotiation-with-putin/

You are right ProSense, Obama is running rings around Putin. He is to stupid to figure it out., Putin has been had.

[freshwest]

35. I disagree. Putin was given a gift. He didn't want the bombs to fall, either. I understand that some

still think that might makes right, but Obama has said more than once: 'Right makes might.'

Doing the right thing is powerful and it makes lasting changes that do not require maintenance. The energetic nature of a system is changed and becomes stable.

Might or force requies an outlay of energy to keep things under control and deteriorates. It forestalls the inevitable that must come. Justice or right, is simply the inevitable.

Peace has a power that cannot be described by those who see things in B&W terms, like the pro and anti war crowds..

[sheshe2]

44. Obama's quote "Right makes might'.

This is the way that America under Our President leads.

You are right, he was given a gift. I am glad that he is reaching out for it. My only wish would be that Putin were doing things for more altruistic reasons.

The world is full of grey areas. It is the common ground between two fuzzily distinguished categories. I would agree that no one could survive in a world that truly only sees things in black and white.

Yes, freshwest, peace has the power.

[Logical]

45. Lol, you are cracking me up! n-t

[Scurrilous]

33. K & R

[William769]

37. Kick & recommended.

[ProSense]

46. Kick! n/t