The sad truth is that a lot of what Putin said is correct

[malaise]

and Joe Scum screaming like a pig won't change that.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan “you’re either with us or against us.”

But force has proved ineffective and pointless. Afghanistan is reeling, and no one can say what will happen after international forces withdraw. Libya is divided into tribes and clans. In Iraq the civil war continues, with dozens killed each day. In the United States, many draw an analogy between Iraq and Syria, and ask why their government would want to repeat recent mistakes.

The world reacts by asking: if you cannot count on international law, then you must find other ways to ensure your security. Thus a growing number of countries seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction. This is logical: if you have the bomb, no one will touch you. We are left with talk of the need to strengthen nonproliferation, when in reality this is being eroded.

We must stop using the language of force and return to the path of civilized diplomatic and political settlement.

All the denials in the world won't change those facts. Sure it hurts to hear this from another asshole but it's still true.

[idwiyo]

1. It makes me sick that it was Putin who said it. I wish it was someone else.

[malaise]

3. What makes me sad is that there are many patriotic Americans who say the same in private

but are terrified to say it publicly.
Now that the neo-cons are on the run, it's time for some truth and reconciliation.

You cannot be bombing the world and talking about freedom and democracy. You cannot support coups and scream about democracy. At some point the cracks widen and credibility is shattered - that's where we are now on this planet.
George Bush fucked it up for good and Obama's continuation of the drone policy was the last straw.

Thank technology and the internet - lots of shit that was hidden is now public knowledge. The corporate media were the fourth estate for the 1% for way too long.
Down comes the illusions.

[Laelth]

28. Are the neo-cons on the run?

I suspect they see recent events as merely a temporary setback. They may yet get their war.

-Laelth

[idwiyo]

133. Those who do say it in public either don't get the same attention or are dissmissed as far-left,

loonies, an-american, etc, etc.

[idwiyo]

6. why do you consider it as ad-hominem attack?

[TBF]

30. It's red-baiting.

One of the way an attack can be ad-hominem is appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect.

[idwiyo]

32. You think my post was ad-hominem attack because I would prefer it was someone other than

Putin who wrote that article?

Sorry, I am just trying to make sure I did not misunderstand you.

[beerandjesus]

44. Not quite clear on the spirit of the post, but I don't believe it's ad hominem

Given Russia's reputation in general and Putin's in specific, I agree with the post. My takeaway isn't red-baiting though, it's the sad commentary on how far our standing has fallen just in my lifetime.

In other words, I wish it hadn't been Putin saying it--because I wish that relative to us, he just didn't have the credibility to say such a thing. Sadly, I don't think that's the case.

[idwiyo]

131. You explained it better than I did.

[muriel_volestrangler]

134. Putin is in no way a communist

He may have started under a communist system, but you can't claim that what he presides over now is any form of socialism or communism.

[TBF]

139. I completely agree -

but I see an awful lot of posts that harken back to the ages of Cold War on this board - particularly in the past two weeks.

Granted I could be over-sensitive on this point.

[idwiyo]

172. If you think my post had anything to do with red-baiting, you are greatly mistaken.

[noiretextatique]

190. i think your post was understandable

but I've seen a few red scare posts here today that make me cringe.

[idwiyo]

191. So did I. It was pathetic.

[dballance]

121. It has been said quite a bit in recent years by others. But ignored.

Many op-eds and articles have been written about the "lie of American Exceptionalism." It's just that none of them have garnered much attention. Putin just got better press coverage of his remarks.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/10/11/the_myth_of_american_exceptionalism

http://www.salon.com/2013/05/26/american_exceptionalism_is_a_dangerous_myth/

[idwiyo]

129. I should have said someone with more cred. But people with more cred don't get this much attention.

It's a catch 22, I guess.

[eridani]

169. Lots of other people have said it, but they're not nearly as famous

Stopped clocks are right twice a day.

[idwiyo]

171. I know. That's what makes it so sick, I think.

[uhnope]

197. People are 100% deluded if they think Putin gives damn about international law, human rights, peace

Free Pussy Riot. Stop Gay Bans.

Screw dictator Putin. A stopped clock is right twice a day.

[idwiyo]

220. You are 100% deluded if you think any leftie on DU believes that Putin is an altruist defender

of Human Rights.

I am perfectly aware of his record, but my integrity demands I admit that he is right in this instance, broken clock or not. And that makes me sick.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

205. Would it help to think that he STOLE the idea?

[idwiyo]

219. It makes me sick that I have to agree with someone like him, precisely because I know what he is.

As I wrote in my answer to another poster, I would be deliriously happy if it came from José Mujica. Or someone like him. Someone who wouldn't make what needs to be said sound like a mockery of the truth.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

227. We can't play the games Republicans play....

They can be all for an idea until they hear it was an Obama idea and then they're against it.

[kardonb]

206. Putin

first Snowden , then Greenwald . now Putin : are they the new heroes for DU ? Sure sounds like it ! You are all drinking more than enough Russian vodka , it seems .

[idwiyo]

221. FFS, do grow up and try to stay away from Kool-Aid if you want to be taken seriously.

[vlakitti]

216. Why are you sickabout this?

Noam Chomsky has been saying it for 30 years.

Ever seen Chomsky on the Sunday blabfest shows talking about manifest destiny and American exceptionalism and all that? Ever wonder why not?

This is the country that used Agent Orange defolients and napalm against Vietnamese farmers and rebels. Not a debatable statement.

Gives you a great moral platform to condemn and bloviate and ridicule other people, doesn't it?

[idwiyo]

218. I would be deliriously happy if it was written by José Mujica, but it wouldn't even make the news.

It makes me sick because Putin is right. It makes me sick because it makes the mockery of the truth, coming from him. It makes me sick because I wish it was someone else, someone with enough moral cred not to make me sick to my stomach when I agree with them.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. He knows how to call people out on their own rhetoric but

he's still the butcher of Grozny and I trust him about as far as my 9 y/o SIL can throw him. He's just hamming it up for the cameras.

I suspect that any overt effort on the part of the US has passed. The WH has its climb-down and is climbing down. I suspect Putin knows this as well and is just needling the President because he's a pan squeezing, manipulative ass.

[malaise]

5. He may be the butcher of Grozny

but that puts several US presidents inside Sinclair's Jungle.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. He still has no moral authority. This is just a show. he's preening and mocking us.

Don't get me wrong. As far as Syria goes I think the President should climb down and run like hell but Putin has no place to pretend to be our moral better.

[sibelian]

9. It doesn't matter whether or not he's your "moral better"

and attempts to interpret his words in that light are nothing more than a way of avoiding their content. Either he's right or he isn't.

[Laelth]

29. Well said.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Here, perhaps, Putin is right.

-Laelth

[malaise]

38. That freaking simple

If the aim to to get to the truth and clean up this fugging planet we had better pay attention when facts are stated.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

72. He's a manipulator. Ron Paul will say the exact same thing. At least Paul is a sincere ideologue.

But that doesn't change the fact Paul is a racist asshole who embarrassed this nation with his abject lunacy for far too long.

Putin doesn't have any semblance of conviction. He's spewing platitudes he doesn't believe in for his own cynical gain. I don't need him to oppose a bad war for me, especially a war I'm now convinced will likely not be occurring. This is just face-rubbing and that is the lens by which we should view his words.

[Marr]

100. That seems like little more than an excuse to ignore the message.

I think the sentiment he expressed there is true, and it doesn't matter whether it came from the mouth of Vlad the Impaler or Ghandi.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

110. I'm not ignoring the message. I've been saying it myself before Plaid the Inhaler.

And with actual sincerity too! In fact, back when I considered US involvement in Syria a viable possibility I was excoriated for swooning over pictures of a shirtless Putin because I so vehemently opposed military action. My message then is as it stands today: I do not need Putin to voice my opposition and I do not trust him agenda.

Please forgive the brush with Godwinism but even Hitler made appeals to higher ideals the international community rightly espoused. But he wasn't sincere. He was wrapping them around their own ethics to get what he wanted. Peace treaties are good. The peace treaty with Chamberlain was a ruse.

[Marr]

122. I understand where you're coming from.

And I expect you're right about the sincerity of the comments, coming from Putin. Still, as a sentiment, it's hard for me not to agree.

[sibelian]

140. You may adopt whatever positions makes you feel comfortable, of course.

The fact of the matter is that Russia didn't invade Iraq, nor Afghanistan, nor is Russia killing people with drones, nor is there an enormous cover up of photographs taken during the Iraq war that the American defense estblishment is desperately trying to keep under wraps to avoid inflaming more Muslim hatred of Russia.

Putin is no Ghandi. But you have no grounds on which to assume that he has no semblance of conviction, particularly in light of the fact that the current US administration has recently ALLEGEDLY spent a colossal amount of airtime trying to pretend that they were going to bomb Syria only for the entire episode to turn out ALLEGEDLY to have been a clever ploy allllllll along.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

142. Yes, Afghanistan. And Chechnya and Azerbijian. He shelled Grozny killing

80,000 civilians. He may not use drones but he assassinates journalists and others while using state power to prosecute personal enemies. Putin doesn't even care about Syria except what it means to Putin's interests.

[Maedhros]

166. Point of Clarification: The Soviet Union, not the Russian Federation, invaded Afghanistan. [n/t]

[Nuclear Unicorn]

167. And where was Putin?

[Maedhros]

175. Not in the Kremlin

Putin joined the KGB in 1975 upon graduation, and underwent a year's training at the 401st KGB school in Okhta, Leningrad. He then went on to work briefly in the Second Chief Directorate (counter-intelligence) before he was transferred to the First Chief Directorate, where among his duties was the monitoring of foreigners and consular officials in Leningrad.[38][39]

From 1985 to 1990, the KGB stationed Putin in Dresden, East Germany.[40] Following the collapse of the communist East German government, Putin was recalled to the Soviet Union and returned to Leningrad, where in June 1991 he assumed a position with the International Affairs section of Leningrad State University, reporting to Vice-Rector Yuriy Molchanov.[39] In his new position, Putin maintained surveillance on the student body and kept an eye out for recruits. It was during his stint at the university that Putin grew reacquainted with his former professor Anatoly Sobchak, then mayor of Leningrad.[41]

Putin finally resigned from the active state security services with the rank of Lieutenant colonel on 20 August 1991 (with some attempts to resign made earlier),[41] on the second day of the KGB-supported abortive putsch against Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev.[42] Putin later explained his decision: "As soon as the coup began, I immediately decided which side I was on", though he also noted that the choice was hard because he had spent the best part of his life with "the organs".[43]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin

His biography shows no involvement in the Afghanistan invasion.

The point is that the Russian Federation and the Soviet Union are not the same political entity.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

179. The KGB, of course being the Soviet agency that

sowed terrorism, violent rebellions, assassinated and oppressed hundreds of millions.

He's a monster.

[Maedhros]

184. I'm not questioning that assessment.

The poster before you referred to Russia, the country, and not Putin, the person. As I wrote, it was a point of clarification not a refutation.

[MattSh]

213. That would have been easy to check...

If you wanted to.

But what's the fun in that?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

224. You mean, like this? --

Link

[sibelian]

245. Not a single one of these things

puts you in a position to contradict the substance of his editorial.

[MADem]

214. No--they invaded GEORGIA, and they didn't get UN "permission" to do so, either.

Just because it wasn't in our newspapers every day doesn't mean it didn't happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Georgia_war

Everyone was too busy watching the Olympics...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2008/08/world_inaction.html

[sendero]

11. Please tell me..

.. just who has "moral authority"? This I've got to hear, and be forewarned, I might decide to demolish your argument with a few well known facts and with one hand tied behind my back.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

74. Not Putin. I don't need him to be my voice for a war I oppose. I don't need Ron Paul either though

he says the same things.

[sendero]

78. Just because Putin has no moral authority..

... which I agree that he doesn't, doesn't mean America does. We flushed the last vestiges of that when we invaded Iraq against the protests of practically the entire world, and every one of our justifications turned out to be lies.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. Maybe you should find someone actually having the conversation you're engaged in.

Because whatever conversation you're having isn't the one I'm making.

[sendero]

97. I'm pretty sure..

... you played the "moral authority" card here. What's the matter, don't like how the game is turning out?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

102. Please cite, for the audience, who I named as my guiding moral authority.

I honestly have no idea what you're going on about.

When you asked me who I would name as an alternate moral authority and did not give one. I stated I don't need a moral authority to speak for me when I state I oppose a US involvement in Syria. Declaring Putin is a cynical ass doesn't obligate me to put on another team's jersey. Fact is, they all suck. My distaste and distrust of large organizations of all stripes grows by the day.

Quite honestly I think the only reason you're picking a fight is you feel the need to win something. Okay, whatever. Here's a kewpie doll --





Enjoy it in good health.

[sendero]

112. Thank you!

I'll put it on the shelf with my others.

[go west young man]

123. At DU....

even Putin gets called a Ron Paulite! Who isn't susceptible to the Ron Paul comparison? Where's Tin Tin when you need him?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

138. Actually, I used Paul as a contrast.

[avebury]

17. Neither does the US have any moral authority

in the world. It is hypocritical to call out Putin on things that he has done when we have members of our own government who have been involved in heinous acts over several decades.

[newfie11]

18. +1

[WCLinolVir]

34. Yeah and I don't listen to them either.

Hypocrites who post op eds should be given the same disdain.

[malaise]

37. That would be two centuries

[go west young man]

124. Great vid. Thanks.

[Myrina]

59. +2

n/t

[malaise]

35. Putin hasn't exactly been screaming freedom and democracy while bombing people

for their resources

[Nuclear Unicorn]

83. That's pretty much what I'm saying. 80,000 casualties in Grozny, now this.

[malaise]

89. Huh? n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

90. I'm agreeing with your post and citing an example of why you are correct.

[eridani]

176. Empires (and their representatives) never have moral authority

Empires exist to continually amass power, not to do good in the world.

[Waiting For Everyman]

8. So he's justifying the acquisition of WMDs

and shaking a finger at us for being warlike. Well what are WMDs, valentines?

And if WMDs are justified because the rule of law has failed, well who is roadblocking the UN?

This isn't rhetoric to be impressed by. It's a cute ploy, but that's it. And I doubt that it will be seen even that positively more than once.

[sibelian]

14. He isn't "justifying" it at all, which is perfectly clear from what he actually said.

He's explaining it.

It could only be interpreted as "justifying" it if anybody involved in the discussion was interested in a common standard against which such actions could be "justified". No such common standard exists, which is evident from the behaviour of certain members of the UN, guess who, I'm not talking about Russia.

Why would Russia cooperate with the UN when the US won't treat the UN as anything other than an extension of its own will? The whole point of a team is that you make sacrifices for it, not that it makes sacrifices for you. If one of the team member nations lies and cheats and pretends it has interests that it doesn't (which couldn't possibly be more obvious from the whole debacle in Iraq, which was nothing more than a cynical oil-grab) and does so in such a sloppily unambiguous way that the only people able to take their statements about their interests seriously is a small proportion of their own populace, how will you expect the world to react? The team is compromised because one of the members is an inveterate liar.

Bush didn't just lie to Americans, he lied to EVERYBODY. Why should Russia choose to trust the United States?

Do you see that your nation's credibility on the International Stage is dependent on a bunch of fucking fundamentalist Christians?

Do you understand that the ENTIRE WORLD can see that your moral reliability depends on a bunch of fucking fundamentalist Christians?

Once every four years the dice gets thrown again and maybe it's "cuddly" America (lol) or maybe it's The Other Guy.

Who's going to trust a system that behaves like that? How can anyone PLAN anything around a system that behaves like that?

Or don't Russians read newspapers?

[malaise]

40. This should be an OP

Excellent post

[WCLinolVir]

42. Read Russian papers?? HAHAHAHA.

How many Russian journalists died under Putin? You have got to be kidding.

"the ENTIRE WORLD can see that your moral reliability depends on a bunch of fucking fundamentalist Christians"

Not anymore than I think that all Israelis support their govt. Or all French people supported Sarcozy.

[sibelian]

53. Please keep your responses to me pertinent.

The subject under discussion is not the number of Russian journalists who have died under Putin.

"Not anymore than I think that all Israelis support their govt. Or all French people supported Sarcozy."

This is a circumvention of the point, it is the Israeli government negotiating on behalf of it's people that other nation states must deal with and plan around, not the Israelis that didn't vote for them. Consequently, the international stage cannot afford cater to the wishes of the Israelis that didn't vote for the Israeli government.

Any more than Russia can cater to you.

Putin has made a point. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, you may raise another issue that makes him look bad, but all that does is leave out the response to his point, which is entirely clear to anyone listening.

[WCLinolVir]

65. Oh my response was pertinent.

And it was addressing what you wrote. "This is a circumvention of the point". Yes, your response is a circumvention. Or is that outright denial?

Russia cater to me?? Really? And is it me or the US?


You need to read your post again.

[sibelian]

246. Would you mind explaining yourself to me more clearly?

You appear to have chosen a subject of your own.

[LuvNewcastle]

155. +1000 n/t

[BlueMTexpat]

208. Excellent post!

Over the past couple weeks, I have felt as if there was some sort of a continental drift/time warp and that I belonged to the wrong one. These are the words that our own leaders should have been using, if they learned anything at all over the past 30+ years and especially the last 12+. It is tragic that the words are in rebuttal to actions that WE initiated/implemented/proposed.

Vlad is a terrible messenger and a horrible person/leader whom I admire not at all in any respect. But his message is all too accurate.

Our "credibility" had been returning - albeit slowly after the debacles of the past decade. The Snowden revelations - not so much in and of themselves because anyone who believes that such actions have NOT been happening for a LONG time is living in a dream world - but the abject denials/excuses given for them, deliberate persecution of whistleblowers, and this outright push for overt military intervention (remember, covert actions sponsored by us in Syria are happening and will continue to happen; I hate what the Assad regime stands for, but I am also totally against such actions) against a sovereign nation that has not attacked us while our "friends" continue warlike actions with impunity and/or protection from us have dealt the return of that credibility such a blow that we will be extremely hard pressed EVER to recover - even if such a thing is possible. I have to believe that it is or there is literally no point for me to go on.

I believe in public service (with no thought of benefits to be milked from the private sector afterwards) and diplomacy; they were my career paths. As a retiree, I continue to support both to the fullest extent possible. To have two people - Prez O & John Kerry - whom I admired (and still do) espouse/articulate the most right-wing of right wing hawkish views for whatever reason/agenda has been a severe setback/trauma for me personally. Adding to that trauma is having someone like Putin be absolutely correct here (even as he himself lives in a very fragile glass house).

[treestar]

10. I don't think it's true

"millions around the world" who see us that way are ignorant.

And Putin cannot talk at all. Anyone saying we have no "moral authority" on chemical weapons must certainly see that no leader of Russia has any moral authority to talk about Democracy.

Oh please, the language of force? He says this because Russia is now far weaker than the US. He can remember a time when it was more or less equal. And now he doesn't like it?

Why is he having the nerve to talk of international law? Had his nation not veto'd the UN, we'd have an international community against chemical weapons.

[wyldwolf]

12. TRUTH!

[Hissyspit]

154. What truth? Poster said "I don't think it is true"

and then offered nothing to debunk what Putin argued.

[NealK]

195. +1 n/t

[BlueMTexpat]

209. +1000! eom

[malaise]

235. Facts cannot be debunked

[sendero]

13. You are so delusional..

.. they are NOT ignorant they watched us go into a country for no reason, based entirely on lies, wreck it completely and kill 200,000 civilians. All while the average citizen, in a snit over a "terror" attack, winked and looked the other way.

It's still wrecked and people are still dying every day. Pull your head out dude, the rest of the world is not ignorant or stupid, nor are they delusional fools that try to put a sugary sheen on all of their misdeeds.

[WCLinolVir]

47. I don't defend the US just because I don't find anything

credible coming from the mouth of a thug. Oh, and the journalists in Russia are probably rolling over in their graves that Putin has any credibility. The dead ones. The rest are now too afraid to tell the truth.

[sendero]

52. Well..

... it is an opinion piece so you either believe the "opinions" are fair or you do not.

But to discount our image among the rest of the world, well that is not opinion it is fact. The rest of the world, by and large, sees us as a bully and for good reason.

[WCLinolVir]

67. Maybe they do, and maybe I do as well.

Opinions are like assh##@@, everybody has one, and when I see one come from an assh**#, it is treated like the anomaly it is. I then put it into context and figure either he did not write it or he has an ulterior motive. I'll go with B. It is politics.

[sendero]

71. Of course he has an ulterior..

... motive. Doesn't negate that portion of his statement at all.

WE have an ulterior motive for wanting to bomb Syria. Anyone that thinks this is about "chemical weapons" is a dolt.

What IS is about? Well I don't know exactly but I'd bet my paycheck against a donut that its about MONEY, and not money that the average American has any interest in, money for big oil or big defense or one of the other entities that are actually running the country at this point in time.

[WCLinolVir]

76. Well yes it does negate it.

And Putin has interests in oil and gas. Personal interests.
I think it is about money.

[sendero]

80. So are ours..

.. so I guess we are right there even with Putin on the moral authority scale.

[WCLinolVir]

86. Yep. Both in the gutter.

[Maedhros]

170. Sendero, I applaud your attempts at using reason to make your point.

However your efforts will probably be in vain.

A number of posters here are seemingly incapably of separating ideas from personalities. In their minds, if you agree with a point made by an individual then you are automatically supporting and promoting that individual and all of his other positions. Likewise if an individual is acknowledged to have unacceptable positions on some issues, then all their positions on all issues are unacceptable.

Not a logical or reasonable approach, but a very popular one.

[treestar]

103. Baloney

most of them have us defending them!

And just which countries have we "bullied?" Ones with dictators? Saddam might not have had WMD and we should not have gone there, but it's not like he was an innocent, Democratic country.

[LiberalLovinLug]

211. Which countries have we "bullied?"

Seriously?

I'd laugh if it wasn't such a disturbingly ignorant comment.

It would be simpler to make a list of unbullied countries.

First there are the countries bullied to the extreme...i.e. invaded, bombed after inventing some narrative to excuse it.
Then there is all the economic bullying going on on behalf of American corporations every day everywhere.

Even your good pal Canada is not immune. When we had a soft wood lumber contention under the Free Trade agreement, the international court sided with us, after the case was dragged out for years. So what did our American counterparts do? They said fine, fine ok you win (they always knew we would)......but now we will simply contend it again....(unless you agree to OUR terms). They knew they would eventually win because they are bigger and could afford the fight and our saw mill towns were meanwhile becoming ghost towns.
Just one small example of American Exceptionalism at work.

[laundry_queen]

215. I couldn't believe that comment either

and was also going to mention (as a Canadian) that even Canada has to bow to the will of the US constantly regarding trade agreements and so on. Heck, the only reason marijuana isn't legal here yet is because the government is worried about how that would work with US policies. You watch, once all the border states have legalized weed, Canada will too.

Good post.

[treestar]

225. But I note you have not mentioned a single country

Nor how Democratic and innocent it was.

I really doubt Canada as a country feels bullied. How much do they depend on the US for defense? Have they spent tons of money on an Air Force or nuclear weapons? Thought not.

[LiberalLovinLug]

229. As I said, this list is too long.

Russia and China also bully smaller countries, why?...because they can. You honestly think America does not?

And you are really going to trot out the old...'You should just shut up because you depend on us for your security'?

First off, no one asked you to be our policeman nor the world's for that matter. (Also I think "policeman" is rather generous a description, it sounds so much more noble than economic bully)
Second we as a country have a big enough armed force to defend the country from any conventional attack (other than from our great "defenders" of course)
Third we have one tenth the population on a bigger land mass, not only could we never afford the size of your super-sized armed forces but we would think it foolish to spend such an obscene amount of our GDP on military as you do.

[treestar]

232. still need a sample of a single country

and I am sure we are thought of well in Canada.

Canada does not have nuclear weapons.

Canada and the US have the world's largest trading relationship

Prime Minister Stephen Harper, in a statement congratulating Barack Obama on his inauguration, stated that "The United States remains Canada’s most important ally, closest friend and largest trading partner and I look forward to working with President Obama and his administration as we build on this special relationship."[112]

President Barack Obama, speaking in Ottawa, Ontario at his first official international visit in February 19, 2009, said, "I love this country. We could not have a better friend and ally."[113]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_States_relations#Trade

U.S. defense arrangements with Canada are more extensive than with any other country. The Permanent Joint Board on Defense provides policy-level consultation on bilateral defense matters and the United States and Canada share North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) mutual security commitments. U.S. and Canadian military forces cooperate on continental defense within the framework of the binational North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD).
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2089.htm

[treestar]

101. +1

Russia cannot lecture anyone about Democracy. They don't even have a first amendment. Are they able to protest against chemical weapons being used by a client state?

[grahamhgreen]

98. +1

[Capt. Obvious]

132. This is a lie!

We killed way more than 200k civilians.

[sendero]

136. LULZ...

... yeah I know but I kept with the lowest estimates so as not to give the apologists something to debate.

[maddezmom]

16. Well said

He is a hypocrite of the highest order.

[avebury]

23. Hypocricy rests on both sides.

Look at US history of getting in bed with dictators, helping to overthrow governments that we did not like (like we should have a say in who another country puts into office (for ex. Allende in Chile or returning the Shah to power in Iran)), funding Bin Laden against the Russians in Afghanastan, providing weapons to Saddam against Iran (which were also used against the Kurds and his own people), and so on. The US has way too much history of meddling in the affairs of other countries.

[maddezmom]

26. I agree

But Putin is not an honest broker considering his relationship with Assad and giving him props for this OP-Ed is like saying a broken clock is right twice a day....not much more.

[RC]

66. And not only that, but, how much of what we say we are against now is a direct result of the bad we

done in and to other countries?
How much of what we condemn Russia for, is a result of Russia reacting to our actions around the the world? To me, it sounds like Putin doesn't want war, but wants another solution in the Middle East, but our actions are telling the world that we want another war, regardless.

Way too many DU members cannot comprehend anything beyond someone praising of the United States, or not, so we must denigrate the messenger, when they don't, regardless of the messeng or circumstances. The refusal to believe Putin helped to defuse another senseless American attack on a country that is no danger to the United States, is counterproductive.
The CIA, read the United States, is supplying more war toys to further inflame the situation in Syria, when the reality is we should be working with other countries to STOP the fighting, not encouraging more by supplying one side or both, with more destructive war toys.
Another reality is, when we invaded Iraq, we drove millions of people into Syria, over whelming their resources to help these people. The current civil war is now far worse because of OUR actions in Iraq. Yet, instead of working to help the people we displace, we are still working to kill even more. Why?

Stop already with the knee jerk reaction of attacking the messenger for not praising Obama enough, or the US foreign policy of instigating wars, instead of peace and instead listen to the message for a change. It is the message that is important, not the messenger. The rest of the world is trying to tell us something and. We. Are. Not. Listening!

The rest of the world is getting very tired of our meddling, bulling and war like ways to force them to do our bidding. We need to pay attention to the recent past Syria situation, where our plans to start another war was put on hold because of world wide pressure. We need to focus on the message and stop shifting our attention to the messenger. If we keep going the way we have been, things will end very badly for us, US.
We are still not listening because the CIA is supplying the rebels anew to enlarge the civil war in Syria.

[treestar]

105. but this is a democracy in which you can protest those things if you don't like them

Even if you misinterpret them.

Russia, not so much.

And our involvements are not always cynical, as theirs are. They are willing to let chemical weapons slide, for their interests! We at least thought, even is misguidedly, that one dictatorship was worse than another for some benighted country.

[avebury]

113. You are aware that the US helped

Iraq obtain chemical weapons don't you?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

Rumsfeld 'helped Iraq get chemical weapons'


US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld helped Saddam Hussein build up his arsenal of deadly chemical and biological weapons, it was revealed last night.

As an envoy from President Reagan 19 years ago, he had a secret meeting with the Iraqi dictator and arranged enormous military assistance for his war with Iran.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html#ixzz2egwXle2E

===========

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-534798.html

Newly released documents show that U.S. officials, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, played a leading role in building up Iraq's military in the 1980s when Iraq was using chemical weapons, a newspaper reports.
.
The newspaper says a review of a large tranche of government documents reveals that the administrations of President Reagan and the first President Bush both authorized providing Iraq with intelligence and logistical support, and okayed the sale of dual use items — those with military and civilian applications — that included chemicals and germs, even anthrax and bubonic plague.

=========

You do remember the brutality of the overthrow of Allende in Chile and installation of Pinochet that the US backed don't you? All the people who were brutally tortured and murdered?

I am in no way, shape or form calling Putin a good person. But it is a cold, hard fact that our country has committed untold horrific actions around the world for many decades now and in no way shape or form can even hold a claim to moral superiority over any other country. I totally get why a lot of countries look upon us as a bully who throws our weight around via our military.

[idwiyo]

33. Its more like tens of millions. If not hundreds.

[malaise]

43. Had his nation not veto'd the UN, we'd have an international community against chemical weapons.

I can't believe you wrote this Treestar. Russia has the right to veto anything it wants in the UN. The US does not own the planet. The US has been ignoring the UN and international law for some time. Read the Bush/Cheney doctrine and get back to me.

[treestar]

107. They vetoed the UN doing something against a chemical weapon attack

They may the the right to, but that they voted as they did shows they were going to let that pass. And left the UN unable to do anything. I don't see how you can defend them for that.

[malaise]

119. Who vetoed the Depleted Uranium in Gaza? n/t

[grahamhgreen]

96. We have chemical weapons. We are not against them.

[treestar]

109. Yes we are.

We do not have to sit by and let others use them. We do not use chemical weapons as defined in the UN Convention. Attempts to paint other things in that light simply fail. If the international community wants to ban other things, that's another issue.

[The Link]

15. It may be correct, but he doesn't believe any of it. He is just further embarassing the US

And the President.

[KurtNYC]

20. Perhaps it is all 3 of those: correct, he believes it AND it is embarassing ?

[The Link]

21. It is possible, but I just don't believe that Putin is sincere in all of this.

[Pachamama]

63. I believe its all three: Putin knows its correct, believes it andis enjoying embaressing the Prez

I will also add that Putin knows he is stronger regionally with Assad left in power and control. Assad without Chem weapons still is strong. The rebels know that. Which is why they will be the first to try and claim its repeated use and stop the diplomatic process. And John McCain and all the Warmongerers in Congress who want regime change, by bombing strikes and arming the rebels, are now also the first to be whining and questioning the President.

[Snake Plissken]

24. It doesn't matter if he believes it, what matter is we put him in a position to be able to say it

\

[The Link]

25. I agree. Putin is the winner in this Syria situation, due to bungling by the administration.

[truebluegreen]

75. Not just this administration.

Years, decades of lying about our motives while pursuing our own interests militarily have given Putin the opportunity to "claim" the high ground.

He doesn't deserve it, but neither do we.

[Snake Plissken]

19. When Putin is the voice of reason

something is terribly wrong

[KurtNYC]

22. I was thinking the same thing -- How far off the rails are we ? RUSSIA is the designated driver!?

[Hydra]

125. I been saying this for days

We know Putin is playing this masterfully, but the fact that he can is a huge moral failure on our part.

[BrainDrain]

27. Embarrassingly enough

you are so right. When Putin is the "reasonable" one in the eyes of the world, we have wandered far from the path indeed.

[MNBrewer]

182. And the corollary of that is that Obama is perceived as a loose cannon

as though taking lessons in diplomacy from the Jong-Il family. Even if it was all part of the N-Dimensional Chess Game, behaving just crazy enough to start an illegal war in order to get a negotiated diplomatic resolution doesn't inspire confidence.

[avebury]

31. What is really sad is some of the decisions that our own

government has made that had long term horrific consequences. A prime example is Ho Chi Minh's request for help from the US regarding the French. The Vietnamese wanted to have an independent nation (which is easily understood) and he asked for American support in their independence efforts.



Letter from Ho Chi Minh to President Harry S. Truman, 02/28/1946

http://www.archives.gov/historical-docs/todays-doc/?dod-date=228

========

http://rationalrevolution.net/war/collection_of_letters_by_ho_chi_.htm

Letter to President Harry Truman, February 16, 1945. The letter was never answered and was not declassified until 1972

Our VIETNAM people, as early as 1941, stood by the Allies' side and fought against the Japanese and their associates, the French colonialists.

...

When the Japanese were defeated in August 1945, the whole Vietnam territory was united under a Provisional Republican Government, which immediately set out to work. In five months, peace and order were restored, a democratic republic was established on legal bases, and adequate help was given to the Allies in the carrying out of their disarmament mission.

But the French Colonialists, who betrayed in wartime both the Allies and the Vietnamese, have come back, and are waging on us a murderous and pitiless war in order reestablish their domination. Their invasion has extended to South Vietnam and is menacing us in North Vietnam. It would take volumes to give even an abbreviated report of the crisis and assassinations they are committing everyday in this fighting area.
...

These security and freedom can only be guaranteed by our independence from any colonial power, and our free cooperation with all other powers. It is with this firm conviction that we request of the United Sates as guardians and champions of World Justice to take a decisive step in support of our independence.

What we ask has been graciously granted to the Philippines. Like the Philippines our goal is full independence and full cooperation with the UNITED STATES. We will do our best to make this independence and cooperation profitable to the whole world.

=========

It kind of puts a whole different spin on the Vietnam War. If Truman had responded to Ho Chi Minh and provided our support to their push to become an independent nation, Ho Chi Minh would not have turned to the Communists and there would have been no need for a war.

Way too often, we mess with other nations without any thought regarding long term consequences of our decisions. Remember we also supported Bin Laden against the Russians in Afhanastan?

[malaise]

45. Shhhhhhhhh!

Truth will out!

[truebluegreen]

79. +100

Way too often, we mess with other nations without any thought regarding long term consequences of our decisions.

Yup.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. Because Americans are mostly ignorant of history

You can't truly have a long term view of history and the future when you go out of your way to not just ignore the past, but pretend it never happened.

It goes hand in hand with American anti intellectualism and Exceptionalism.

[Safetykitten]

36. The whole thing Obama said was sickening, but the worst was the "exceptionalism" shit...

as he hangs around the wrong people throughout his career, it's not really surprising he said that. But he has to pull that one out of his ass to get his big picture, whatever the fuck that is across.

So we are "exceptional"? Is that bar set a bit fucking low on the definition? The fuckedupedness of our society is legion. Yet he says this. I would assume someone in a true first world nation with HC, safety, no gun fuckery and just a generally humane society would sit in their chair and sigh, and see how fucking pathetic it was that he said that.

We ARE NOT exceptional. We are becoming a cancer on the planet, and what the Australian politician said was correct.

[malaise]

46. Agreed but apparently every American President in recent times

attempts to sell that bullshit. Still the one exceptional thing is the amount of weapons sold by the US and indeed the amount of countries bombed into submission literally or figuratively - ask little Grenada.

[bullsnarfle]

60. The "American Exceptionalism" disciples

are downright scary. Reminds me too much of that "Master Race" crap.
Brrrrrrrrrr!

[Myrina]

61. +1 Brazillion

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. Red meat to imperial citizens.

And empires in decline get really bad about it.

[florida08]

39. it is indeed disheartening

but we are not the country we once were. We have been usurped by the Grand Chessboard. (Zbiegniew Brzezinski)

[CRH]

159. And before the Grand Chessboard and Brzezinski, Kissinger. n/t

[florida08]

161. ugh Kissinger...what a human

"Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control the people."

[CRH]

174. Yeah I guess we still have to refer to psychopaths as human, ...

I remember his trail of human misery through the 60's and 70's and his influence in foreign policy beyond. All in the name of hegemonic imperialism. Where ever he planned the policy, disaster for the locals followed.

[tavernier]

41. Putin and Assad = Stalin and Hitler

Make no mistake about that. My family has experienced the "benevolence" of Putin, and they and their fellow countrymen were terrified when he returned to power. His self righteous blathering is nothing more than sociopathic bullshit. Sadly, as history shows us, people have a tendency often to listen to the rants of such men and to believe the crap they spout. Whether that is because they come off with an air of absolute confidence - not surprising since the sociopath is never wrong - or because they mouth the words people want to hear; who knows? Either way, nothing good can come from this unholy alliance. We should cut bait and let them find happiness with each other.

[Savannahmann]

48. You don't understand. To a majority here on DU

It isn't the message, it's the messenger that is the only thing we may discuss. Truth only comes from those they like.

[WCLinolVir]

56. How can we regard what he says as "the truth" when it is

coming from a pathological liar? The context of what is said is dependent on our understanding of who is saying it.

My only question is what's in it for him? Because his history and his actions are far more relative than words on paper. And the history is ugly, oppressive and deadly.

[A Simple Game]

84. How can we regard what he says as the truth?

Because anyone that knows even a little history, recent and not so recent, of the United States knows it is the truth.

Why would you think the context of what is said has anything to do with who said it? The context, especially in this case, has very strong legs of it's own.

Who cares what's in it for him? The truth doesn't care who says it, only people that don't like the truth care about that. As for the history being ugly, oppressive, and deadly? You could be talking about the United States history.

[WCLinolVir]

137. The truth? Well let's start with the history of Putin.

To me it does affect context. His hypocrisy renders what he says not the truth. Not true for him. It is relative. Otherwise it's propaganda. That he happens to hit some points that we can agree on is irrelevant. What's in it for him is the context. The motivation is the bigger truth. And to me, all this compartmentalizing is a sign of illness.

[MNBrewer]

183. In none of that do you address the issue regarding US, though

You deflect and deflect and deflect, DESPERATE! You address only the messenger, never the message.

[A Simple Game]

192. Not true for him? Truth is truth no matter who says it.

If you said the sky is blue and Putin said the sky is blue, you would expect me to believe you but not him?

You are just denying the ugliness of our history, and there are some very ugly spots.

[WCLinolVir]

242. No not denying anything.

I don't agree with giving credence to what has already been elucidated by others, to a manipulative thug. And now it turns out that he has a pr firm do his work for him. Which yes, makes it propaganda.

[A Simple Game]

244. It's politics, it's all propaganda. President Obama does it too, they all do. n/t

[MattSh]

212. Well, if you want to start with the history of Putin...

Wouldn't it be logical to actually post something about said history?

[WCLinolVir]

243. Why don't you look it up.

[Savannahmann]

116. Everyone acts in their own self interest.

There is only one loyalty, and that is the loyalty a man/woman has to their own view of their character. I am loyal to the principles I hold dear, because I see myself as a principled individual.

Of course Russia is looking out for Russian interests. What kind of a nation looks out for interests that isn't their own. Japan looks out for Japanese Interests. The UK voted and decided that Syria is not one of their interests.

I've been posting time and time again. Russia has one Foreign Naval Port. One. Not a dozen like we have, one. That one is in Syria. There is no way they let Syria fall, and they would prefer not to fight a war over it, but they will if they must. Anyone would in the same situation. If Assad falls, the replacement regime will not continue the relationship with the Russians. We think we can influence the Free Syrian Army, and help them win. But in the end if Assad falls, it will be the Muslim Brotherhood and AQ, which does not serve our interests in the least.

Russia out maneuvered us from the get go. We came out of the starting gate with one objective, to punish Assad for using weapons banned by a treaty Syria did not sign.

Of course Putin is looking out for Russian Interests. The problem is that President Obama is not making the case that the military action is in American Interests. We may feel bad for the victims, but they are 1.4% of the estimated dead in the civil war. That is like getting riled up because people died in Fiat's while ignoring those who died in any other car.

We chastise Republican Voters for voting against their self interest. We mock those who decide not to join Unions for ignoring their own self interest. Now we object to Putin for looking out for his and Russia's self interest.

Come on man, think it through, and see the bigger picture.

[noiretextatique]

193. if you know ANYTHING about american history

you know what he said was truthful.

[randome]

70. Perhaps it's because he will never put actions to his words.

He will use 'brute force' when it suits him. He will trample on rights when it suits him. The message is well-stated. But there is no honesty behind them.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Marr]

108. I've noticed it tends to be the same people who fixate on Obama as a personality.

It's very strange-- it's always about celebrity and personality with that crowd. Messages and ideas are just window dressing that can be swapped out on a whim, and need not be discussed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. This ^^^^_____^^^^^

[LuvNewcastle]

156. Yes.

[L0oniX]

185. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Jester Messiah]

49. This is what it looks like to get called on your bullshit.

Maybe if Obama had lived up to what we hoped he would be as a president, it wouldn't have been necessary. As it is, Uncle Vlad is showing him up handily.

[madrchsod]

50. i think putin should look at russia`s history before criticizing the usa

[Myrina]

64. ... and we in the USA should look at the US's crumbling corpse and corrupt soul...

... before we talk about 'American exceptionalism', 'bringing democracy to the world' and 'regime change' in any other part of the world.

[malaise]

87. And that in a nutshell is why we are here

and in a position to be schooled by an asshole like Putin. We bought our own bullshit for way too long.

[Dustlawyer]

51. He did what he did b/c the rest of the world knows that Americans, in general, are ignorant

and easily swayed since we live in a bubble. Those of us here know what is going on because we read. Most Americans prefer to watch the Boob Tube and are fed what our leaders want us to believe. We must be the laughingstock of the developed world! They know the we don't know and understand different cultures, hell, we don't know basic geography! Putin is the EVIL Russian ruler so the Sheeple will not listen to what he says anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. That was written beyond sixth grade

Like most editorials abroad. It was college level. So it was not aimed at the average red blooded Murican. It was aimed at chattering classes that read shit like Foreign Affairs and Foreign Policy, or work at the State Department.

And from the reception here. I think I am right.

[Brickbat]

54. He's actually wrong about how the world sees the U.S.

Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan “you’re either with us or against us.”

In the Pew Research Foundation's 2013 Global Attitudes Project, researchers found that "Overall, global attitudes toward America are positive. In 28 of 38 nations, half or more of those surveyed express a favorable opinion of the U.S."

Numbers were up from last year, in fact.

[pampango]

77. Certainly true in most of the world, but not in the Middle East.

[Brickbat]

91. Very true.

[Celefin]

95. If you even can extrapolate that, that means...

...that half the population -that's more than 4 billion people- of this world do not have a favorable attitude towards America.
That is not the best foundation to be a world leader I'd say.

A little anecdotal example from Europe: in the 80s and early 90s everything USA was cool and there were cowboys and stars and stripes practically on every corner. You hardly see them anymore; and there is a reason for that.

As the numbers show, the favorable opinion still outweighs the negative, but in the developed world the admiration is gone. There is of course a noticeable bump after Obama was elected, but since then there is a downward trend again.

I dare say the threat of a new middle east war with US involvement under the Obama administration will have an impact on the positive opinions (except in the poorest nations that always admire US wealth and power but also have little opportunity to follow global politics, something I know from own African experience).

[Little Star]

55. k&r

[ProSense]

58. Putin is concern trolling and

spreading misinformation. He knows some are all too ready to hype is point. As the WH said, Putin has to act. The ball is in his court.

“That’s all irrelevant,” the White House official said in response. “He put this proposal forward and he’s now invested in it. That’s good. That’s the best possible reaction. He’s fully invested in Syria’s CW disarmament and that’s potentially better than a military strike – which would deter and degrade but wouldn’t get rid of all the chemical weapons. He now owns this. He has fully asserted ownership of it and he needs to deliver.”

http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/11/white-house-responds-to-putins-nyt-op-ed/

On edit, he also mischaracterzied the President's point, and clearly doesn't understand what it means.

From the President's speech:

Franklin Roosevelt once said, “Our national determination to keep free of foreign wars and foreign entanglements cannot prevent us from feeling deep concern when ideals and principles that we have cherished are challenged.” Our ideals and principles, as well as our national security, are at stake in Syria, along with our leadership of a world where we seek to ensure that the worst weapons will never be used.

America is not the world’s policeman. Terrible things happen across the globe, and it is beyond our means to right every wrong. But when, with modest effort and risk, we can stop children from being gassed to death, and thereby make our own children safer over the long run, I believe we should act. That’s what makes America different. That’s what makes us exceptional. With humility, but with resolve, let us never lose sight of that essential truth.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023642111

Putin's 1999 NYT op-ed: Why We Must Act
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023652622

No, Putin isn't being smart. Obama is running rings around him
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023650531

[sinkingfeeling]

62. Yes, we're not any more 'exceptional' than another nation.

[randome]

68. The words make sense. The writer does not.

It's like hearing a defense of equal rights from Pat Robertson.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Mass]

69. He may not be wrong, but he is a flawed messenger.

and sadly, this editorial does not do anything for peace. Now, the question is to know whether the US and Russia will grandstand on their position or whether they will try to find a solution the way Kennedy and Khrushchev did. That means talking to each other, not past each other.

[randome]

73. Very true!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Zorra]

81. What he says may be true, but he doesn't mean a word of that script. nt

[malaise]

92. I don't give a flying fuck about Putin

I do care about the US and it's time to face the truth - no country is exceptional and we are up to our necks in atrocities against our fellow human beings on the planet.

[randome]

94. I think countries that kill women and children for religious reasons imply that some countries...

...are exceptional if they don't aspire to the same. America does not need to be #1 but I do see it as exceptional in many ways.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Zorra]

106. Yeah, I know that. It's just Putin...I mean, I was just sayin', ya know?

[WCLinolVir]

82. Am I the only one to see the incredible cynicism of Putin

who freely posts his opinion in a national paper without repercussions, while journalists in his country are murdered? Opposition leaders are railroaded into jail. What are the standards of journalism? As an editor I would not allow this man a mouthpiece, knowing what the conditions are for those like me in Russia.

[austinlw]

99. Putin may be have said

a few things here that make some sense, but this op-ed is just a cynical attempt to manipulate the American people. There are parts of it that I agree with (like the danger of a country seeing itself as exceptional in some kind of "moral" way), while parts of it make me gag over his hypocrisy. For instance, the chaos in Afghanistan goes back to the Russian invasion over 3 decades ago. Where was he then? As far as I'm concerned, he and Dick Cheney are about equally credible. Both occasionally say something that I can somewhat agree with (like Cheney's support of gay rights), but most of what they say is typically wrong, hypocritical, cynical, and manipulative. As has been said many times, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[treestar]

111. +1

It's kind of maddening! He gets to freely editorialize in another country (because it has a free press). But his critics in his country? LOL those praising him here, who so enjoy their freedom to criticize our leaders, wouldn't be able to do so there.

[Maedhros]

173. I don't see anyone "praising" Putin.

Almost every single post notes that the man, himself, is a hypocrite while noting the idea he presents rings true.

[Botany]

85. Pootie Poot's letter is 95% about facing saving

President Obama got Putin and Assad to do just what he wanted them to do.

[bvar22]

128. The Pee Wee Herman Defence Fail:

"He MEANT to do that!"

It must have been really difficult to rig the vote in Britain's Parliament,
but nothing is too impossible for some to believe.

[totodeinhere]

143. Actually, they haven't done anything yet but talk.

The Syrian Foreign Minister has said they will not give up their chemical weapons in reaction to force. As Hillary Clinton has speculated they might only be stalling for time.

[Cha]

180. Exactly, Botany.. Thank you!

President Obama negotiated this and not from a position of weakness.

[RetroLounge]

202. What, did you lose your pic of Obama in a swimsuit?

RL

[JohnnyLib2]

93. For good or bad, it's a remarkable moment in history. Definitely, something to read and ponder.

Carry on.....

[johnd83]

104. So Putin read opinion polls and parroted them back and is somehow amazing?

[leftstreet]

114. Maybe Obama & Kerry should have read some opinion polls

People don't want war

[johnd83]

135. I don't think war was ever really the plan

It was a last resort and worked to trigger the diplomatic solution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. I guess that essay was written at too high of a level

And truly went over your head

[johnd83]

162. Um, no

it is just more geopolitical posturing and should be treated as such.

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. Ok. This is why the WH is touching on the paras they liked

and ignoring the rest.

And this is why serious people are actually discussing it at serious places.

Ok.

Have a good day.

[quinnox]

115. No question about it

I read the whole thing and he made some good points. This is an admirable thing, to reach out directly to the American people. Putin did more than most foreign leaders, just by doing this. Hopefully the Obama administration will return the favor.

[markpkessinger]

117. This would seem to apply here . . .

[bvar22]

118. DURec for Common Sense in an atmosphere of insanity.

The reflection in the mirror is frightening.

[font size=3]
We must stop using the language of force and return to the path of civilized diplomatic and political settlement.
[/font]

[malaise]

120. That freaking simple

[TBF]

141. This is a much better way of stating the OP.

I agree.

[Scuba]

126. We like to flex our muscles. Makes rich people richer ...

[DesMoinesDem]

127. The moment you realize an ex-KGB tyrant ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Can I steal that one?

[DesMoinesDem]

150. Go for it. I didn't make it. I found it on Twitter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. It is a great graphic

[BainsBane]

130. Will he be trying that in Chechnya?

[totodeinhere]

145. We have been hearing that American exceptionalism line for far too long.

We have one of the worst health care systems in the developed world. Our infant mortality rate is among the highest. Our life expectancy is lower by developed world standards. Millions of Americans are hungry and living in poverty and the gap between rich and poor keeps increasing. We have one of the highest murder rates in the developed world and we have one of the highest incarceration rates. And I could list a lot more reasons why we are not exceptional but you get the idea.

Yes Putin is a thug. His attack on the Russian LGBT community is unconscionable. But he is right about American exceptionalism. And the more that we keep being distracted by the Syrian crisis the more we will be putting off dealing with the problems that I listed.

[DrewFlorida]

152. Putin wants us to do some soul searching, while he continues his arrogant path.

While some of what Putin said was true, when it comes from a fraud and a despot such as him it holds no value.

[Maedhros]

207. The value of truth is dependent upon the nature of the person stating it?

Truth/Falsehood is a binary condition, and therefore must have a value (0 = False, 1 = True). By "holds no value" I take you to mean that you assign a value of "0 = False."

Therefore you appear to be proposing that a statement would be "True" when spoken by some persons, yet the same statement would be simultaneously "False" when spoken by a different set of persons.

How do you resolve this logical conundrum?

[paulrandfu]

157. The USA is kind of like a brat throwing a temper tantrum

It needs adult intervention.

[L0oniX]

186. ...more like the Mafia. n/t

[liberal_at_heart]

158. People seem to think they can dismiss one truth because of another.

The truth is Putin is not an exceptional man, and America is not an exceptional country. Both are true.

[sibelian]

247. Thank you for that observation.

You are, dishearteningly, entirely correct about "people".

[Martin Eden]

160. The sad truth is that's most effective way for a bad actor to influence others.

Build a framework of correct observations people can agree with, but insert nuggets of propaganda and craft the overall message with a narrative that serves the ulterior motives of the bad actor.

Vladimir Putin is indeed a bad actor on the world stage and in his own country.

[BrainMann1]

164. Mr. Putin should be the last person lecturing the USA.

[RetroLounge]

204. He *should* be but alas, he's not, as he is correct.

RL

[jimlup]

165. So interestingly it seems that things like

"American Exceptionalism" along with some other concepts are really just (dare we say it) propaganda.

Who'da thought! Go figure...

[indepat]

168. The path of civilized diplomatic and political settlement was discarded when junior announced his

PNAC vision and agenda of pre-emptive wars of aggression and choice and the SOS's recent saber-rattling has done little to put that vision and agenda to rest. The fact is TPTB are so entrenched with right-wing chicken-shit chicken-hawks, that this belligerent and bellicose right-wing policy in this right-wing soused society will prevail until it is fully and resolutely rebuked, renounced, and dismantled by the administration in power: that hasn't happened and regretfully, doesn't seem to be on the horizon.

[toddwv]

177. Lol, fuck Putin.

Ex-KGB wannabe (successful?) dictator. Russia is by now means the innocent bystander in these matter.

"Civilized diplomatic and political settlement?" Call us once you enter the 21st century and repeal your newly minted homosexuality repression laws you POS.

[ColesCountyDem]

178. The "Butcher of Grozny" is going to lecture the US about moral authority?

Was that a flying, opera-singing pig I just saw overhead?

/sarcasm off

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

181. It's time for the world to be run in a different way.

Not just militarily, but in all aspects.
What's coming at us in the future will take all of us working together to just exist.
Sadly a lot of people on this post don't understand or are not willing admit just how dire the situation is.

[Uncle Joe]

187. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, malaise.

[ozone_man]

188. Not sad truth,

he should get the Nobel and make Obama give his back. He is a warmonger.

[kimbutgar]

189. We have become a laughing stock of the world

America is no longer great. We can't get anything done anymore except for the 1%. One of our politicial parties have become so insane led by a corporate driven media and a spokesman who is a college drop, insane druggie. He makes up wild accusations that makes people insane enough to think and vote against their best interests. The right wing today is praising Putin and attacking the American president because he is a democratic president with more melanin in his skin than they like. We live in crazy times and I don't know if we can correct this craziness. Now more than ever I fear for this country. Now that the republican mo is to recall democrats in midterms this will become the norm. Put a stick in America we're done. I have a buffer living in California for now but this poison is spreading. And I hope I am WRONG.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

194. the US acts bloodthirsty, bombing, droning, starving Muslim countries

we don't act like the good guys.

Name any other country that has attacked as many countries as we have or are attacking now.

[NealK]

200. "Name any other country that has attacked as many countries as we have"

Nazi Germany.

[another_liberal]

203. Recently?

Throughout history there have been many. Recently? Maybe only Israel.

[another_liberal]

196. Putin is not the Devil incarnate.

Both of President Putin's parents nearly died during the Nazi siege of Leningrad, in World War Two. His mother was so close to death from starvation that only his wounded father's timely return home from military hospital prevented her nearly lifeless body from being carted off to burial in a mass grave. Those are the kind of no nonsense, hard knocks people who raised him.

He is a tough, autocratic person, yes, but he is not the product of an American upbringing. He is Russian, and that is a different kind of life which produces a very different kind of man. He is not exactly our friend, no, but he does not have to be our enemy either, unless we choose to force him to be such. He is a man who can be trusted to stay true to his word.

[malaise]

198. I couldn't care less about the personalities

I do care about what America has become and I welcome the truth from anyone - it is time for self-examination.

[another_liberal]

199. For a Twenty-first Century American . . .

Self-examination? That is not likely to be a pleasant journey of discovery for Twenty-first Century Americans. We have much to answer for, and only a happy ignorance of the World around us serves to protect our simplistic sense of self-worth. You are calling for a great deal of painful eye-opening.

[Agnosticsherbet]

201. We should all remember that Putin is not a nutral player in this sad story...

Putin and Russia support Syria and anything he has to say must be seen through the lens of Russian National Interest.

[another_liberal]

210. We are largely serving Israel . . .

Last edited Fri Sep 13, 2013, 06:30 PM - Edit history (1)

As far as Syria is concerned, we are largely serving Israel and her powerful lobbying influence over the United States Congress.

To Russia, Syria is an important pawn in her struggle to retain independence. A good chess player never carelessly sacrifices even a pawn.

[Agnosticsherbet]

230. America serves its own intersts, not Israels. Israel is our client state

and does pretty much what we want them to do and serves our Imperial interests.

Your statement is without any basis in fact, but it does Echo Henry Ford's “The International Jew: The World’s Problem,” the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" the "Illuminati," and the whole "Rothschild Conspiracy."

[another_liberal]

233. Hardly . . .

Israel runs our Middle Eastern foreign policy, that is a fact. To say so is hardly antisemitism. That worn out canard has been debunked many times by many people.

[Agnosticsherbet]

236. There is zero fact in your fact.

It is entirely untrue, and there is no truth in it either.

Saying a country of 20 million people somehow controls the largest imperial power on the face of the earth is simply wrong.

It is as false as the Republican conservative belief that Muslims are all an evil communist Nazi Socialist religion out to rule the world

It is saying pity our poor, witless, foolish, elected officials can not help but blindly follow the mystic cabalistic power of Israel.

It is not a canard and has never been debunked. It is as false as those other fearful tracts that tried to blame all the problems of the world of one group people could absolve themselves of blame for their own actions.

[another_liberal]

237. We clearly have nothing to say to one another.

You seen determined only to insult me and attribute to me horrible words and ideas which are not my own. I, on the other hand, feel I am arguing with a wall.

Good evening to you, sir.

[Agnosticsherbet]

238. You seem determined to blame one group of people because they serve American ends.

Last edited Sat Sep 14, 2013, 05:00 PM - Edit history (1)

No, we are not communicating.

Good bye.

[TheKentuckian]

240. No, this time we are serving the Saudis. The Saudis have more pull than Israel, I believe.

[Beartracks]

217. Well, I think Doolittle said it best in 'Dark Star'...

"The concept is valid no matter where it originates."


Just because something may be said by an asshole doesn't automatically make it less true.

=================

[malaise]

223. That simple

[B Calm]

222. The world has always thought Americans are crazy

[gopiscrap]

226. Right message, wrong messanger!

[Octafish]

228. We are exceptional.

In that we don't smell our own stink.

Kick. Rec. and Thank you

[malaise]

231. That's the truth

[woo me with science]

239. +1

[rumdude]

234. One name: Sergei Magnitsky

Learn what happened to Sergei, and you will learn everything you need to know about the Putin government and the power structure that surrounds it.

[malaise]

241. I don't give a flying fugg about Putin

I do care about America and sadly Putin wrote some facts that need to be addressed. Forget the fugging messenger.