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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsClean up on aisle "false flag"
There's a cynical double-game played on the authorship of the 8/21 Damascus area artillery barrages that included Sarin gas shells, involving using any weakness of one claim as an argument for all other claims, conflating Assad and Assad Regime and generally producing heat rather than light.
Let us take in in order.
1) Was there a huge Sarin Attack?
Yes. Nobody disputes this today, though many or most of the current deniers did ring the "no attack" bell early on. The administration's death toll of 1,429 was bogus, insofar as they surely knew that no such specific number was reliable and thus that number was not likely to be the actual number, but they used it anyway. Also, I have never seen a break down of how many people were killed by conventional artillery shells in the huge mixed barrages of 8/21, so who knows what even constitutes Sarin deaths speciffically... but almost everyone agrees this was bigthe largest and deadliest chemical weapons attack since the gassing of Kurds in Iraq many years ago.
2) Were the Sarin shells fired by Syrian regime forces?
Yes. For pete's sake... the alternative is that the rebels have a massive capability to fire Sarin artillery from their current positions into the heart of Assad territory and just haven't bothered to do so, preferring to infiltrate Assad strongholds to fire the weapons back at themselves. It is irrelevant whether some rebels have some Sarin (they do) or whether they have fucked around with Sarin before (they have) unless rebel forces could have done THIS attack.
This was a large attack on more than one area with rocket artillery, launched from closer into the heart of Damascus out toward rebel stronghold neighborhoods. The rebels could not have done that. They eat people. They rape women, murder children, and are certainly morally capable of a false flag operation to encourage the USA to bomb Assad forces, but absent the practical ability to do so their motives mean nothing.
3) Did Assad order the attack?
We do not know. It is distinctly possible that he did not. But it is certain that someone within Assad's regime forces hierarchy did. For some reason this "unknown" gets boot-strapped into intellectual anarchy, as if any unknown element opens the door to any and every theory. And some arguers have artfully exploited the short-hand mutual identity of "Assad" and "regime forces" to muddy the water by using "Assad may not have done it personally" as somehow supporting of "the rebels did it."
This is like a theory that Curtis LeMay orchestrated the nuclear destruction of Hiroshima over Truman's objections being used to argue that the Japanese dropped an A-bomb on themselves.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)the army units were the ones who used the Sarin. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lesersense/2013/09/01/syria-with-alan-grayson
That doesn't mean Assad gave the order. But if Rep. Grayson who is definitely a skeptic believes the evidence he was given, that is enough for me.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"That doesn't mean Assad gave the order. But if Rep. Grayson who is definitely a skeptic believes the evidence he was given, that is enough for me."
...Assad discussed their use.
(Reuters) - Syrian government forces may have carried out a chemical weapons attack close to Damascus without the personal permission of President Bashar al-Assad, Germany's Bild am Sonntag paper reported on Sunday, citing German intelligence.
Syrian brigade and division commanders had been asking the Presidential Palace to allow them to use chemical weapons for the last four-and-a-half months, according to radio messages intercepted by German spies, but permission had always been denied...This could mean Assad may not have personally approved the attack close to Damascus on August 21 in which more than 1,400 are estimated to have been killed, intelligence officers suggested.
<...>
Members of the foreign affairs committee present at the briefing told Reuters Schindler had said that although the BND did not have absolute proof Assad's government was responsible, it had much evidence to suggest it was.
This included a phone call German spies intercepted between a Hezbollah official and the Iranian Embassy in Damascus in which the official said Assad had ordered the attack.
<...>
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/08/us-syria-crisis-germany-idUSBRE98707B20130908
This indicates that Assad disscussed the attack with his military, and there is evidence that pro-Assad Hezbollah stated that he "ordered the attack." Assad bears responsibility for his military, especially given the discussions with "brigade and division commanders" and the known role of his brother. This report makes the situation even more precarious.
The Magistrate
(95,257 posts)A number of people are disgracing themselves over this, making it quite clear that they are of unsound judgement, and not to be taken seriously on any matter.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)K & R
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)There are certain responsibilities to the "Commander in Chief" title. First and foremost among them is tight control of your WMD's. Whether he directly ordered the attack, or whether he *only* allowed them in the hands of someone who used them without his direct command, the fault lies with him. He is ultimately responsible for what his forces do.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)If the mission was to assassinate Assad, for instance, it would be very relevant. Wouldn't want to promote the guy who did order the attack.
But yes, I agree that #3 is not really all that interesting a point either way.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)...before they have to answer to their consciences about allowing a chemical attack to go unanswered vs. potentially considering military action.
At least I hope it's the last thing. I shudder to think what they will grip onto next. It was Hezbollah? It was the CIA (I have heard this)? Aliens?
Trekologer
(998 posts)It would suggest that Assad doesn't have control of his military forces. I am a on the fence over a military strike against Syria but if Assad lost control of his chemical weapons, I think that would push me over to supporting a strike to destroy those weapons and the ability to deliver them.
leftstreet
(36,117 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)(I know. It wouldn't be very "secret" if we all got to see it. )
If Grayson, Sanders and Warren are convinced by the evidence they have access to, that counts for a lot with me.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)after your representatives verified it you won't believe it when you see it. You'll say it's fabricated or some other excuse.
leftstreet
(36,117 posts)Greedy, do-nothing millionaires and wannabes
No one trusts a thing they say
Obama had an opportunity to outline the evidence
He didn't make his case
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Obama had an opportunity to outline the evidence. He didn't make his case"
Members of Congress, including those who oppose a strike, have condemned Assad for the attack.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023655921#post1
DanTex
(20,709 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)We DO NOT KNOW who is responsible for the Gas Attacks.
Of course, for some discerning Americans capable of critical thought,
the official proclamations US Government stopped being a Credible Source
a long time ago, and even the US Government has admitted they have no proof, only a good guess that Assad was behind the Gas Attacks.
At NO time has the US Government stated that Assad is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, sand that they have the Smoking Gun in hand.
PROOF, beyond the Shadow of a Doubt is the necessary criteria before state sponsored executions,
and should be doubly so for starting New WARS,
or for Sending a Message by killing another country's people.
Here is a "credible analysis":
<snip>
All of that said, note that the U.S. has qualified every statement it has made about the situation. it is "undeniable" that chemical weapons had been used in Syria and he set out a case against Assad without directly blaming the regime for the attack.
During his daily press briefing Tuesday, : "There is also very little doubt, and should be no doubt for anyone who approaches this logically, that the Syrian regime is responsible for the use of chemical weapons on August 21st outside of Damascus."
Jean Pascal Zanders, who worked for the European Union Institute for Security Studies from 2008 to 2013 and concentrated on the non-proliferation of chemical weapons says until the U.N. investigative team presents its report, "we need to keep our minds open that the events of last Wednesday could in whole or partially have alternative explanations."
"In fact, we the public know very little beyond the observation of outward symptoms of asphyxiation and possible exposure to neurotoxicants, despite the mass of images and film footage," Zanders added. "For the West's credibility, I think that governments should await the results of the U.N. investigation."
<more>
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/08/27/216172145/is-it-possible-the-syrian-rebels-not-assad-used-chemical-weapons
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Not that I don't believe you, I just want to see the sources.
Thanks in advance!
Andy823
(11,495 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)I'm going to accept everything you say above at face value. My question is, does this justify a war (and I'm not going to play semantics about what constitutes a "war" either)? I'm not saying it doesn't, I haven't been following the news on Syria and I don't know very much about the belligerents, their histories or their positions. My question can be pretty much boiled down to: Is the death and destruction likely to be caused by a war less than the death and destruction likely to be caused by leaving the situation alone?
I don't like war. I know that's not unusual but it seems to need stating these days. But I dislike tyrants even more.