Addressing African American men as "boy"

[Coventina]

hi,

It's been, I think, literally years since I've been around.

I've come to you, because I had some internet "unpleasantness" today.

To keep things brief, I commented to a writer (a European) that a story of hers I was reading had an exchange where a character addresses an African American character as "boy."

Now, I don't think she was being racist, or the character, (it's a fantasy story and the character is not from Earth - so how would he know about US institutionalized racism?), but I just wanted to explain that the AA character, as well as the other American characters in the scene would probably react to the usage of "boy" in that way.

She became very defensive, then took to her Tumblr account complaining about how Americans think that everything is always about them, that I unfairly accused her and her character of racism, that I'm crazy and/or an idiot to think that "boy" (even used as an insult -which it was) should be taken as racist. Leave her alone, she's European, not an American (even though she's writing about American characters?) etc, etc. And, now her Tumblr followers are out for my blood as well.

Am I crazy?

If I was writing dialogue involving characters in her country, and I used a phrase or term that has loaded connotations, I'd appreciate the information.

I'm really broken-hearted, as it kind of ruins the story for me, and I was really enjoying it.

Was I wrong? Am I being insensitive?

[NuclearDem]

1. Neither of you are in the wrong here.

Her reaction was knee jerk, though like you said, I would have wanted to know something like that before publishing.

Context and subtext help, but just off the bat, it could be offensive.

[Glassunion]

2. Depends a whole lot on what exactly you said to start the whole thing rolling.

[Coventina]

9. I started by telling her how much I was enjoying the story

and I also said that I knew English wasn't her first language and that she and the character might not know how "boy" was used as an epithet in American history.

I thought I made it clear that I was NOT accusing her or the character of ill-intent (on a racial level - the scene is an argument) and when she wrote back defending herself I replied and again made the point that I was just trying to let her know about the cultural connotations of using "boy" as an insult to an African American man.

And I again said it was not meant to disparage her or her story.

[Skittles]

3. ...

you are not crazy - there absolutely is a justified sensitivity to something that can obviously be construed as demeaning

[knitter4democracy]

4. The lady doth protest too much methinks.

You pointed out something that, as a writer, she should know. She overreacted for whatever reason, but that doesn't make you wrong.

[MNBrewer]

5. Is the character a boy?

[Coventina]

12. No, he is an African American man, in his 50s or 60s

But the alien character is much older than that, hence, her claim that I'm being ridiculous.

So, that's why I'm here questioning myself.

[MNBrewer]

14. ahh

[treestar]

65. I was wondering about that

We refer to kids in our (white) family as "boy" and I don't know if it is a reflection of some ancient racism - would it be wrong to call an AA boy that?

[LittleBlue]

6. Which part of Europe is she from?

Could be wrong on this, but I recall parts of Britain and Ireland where "boy" is common. In other parts, it's common to call men "lad".

[Coventina]

13. Eastern Europe

[classysassy]

33. The word boy

has been used in America for generations and the use was and is used to degrade black men.

[treestar]

64. I have a tape of Great Expectations

Where adults constantly refer to Pip as "boy." In fact an age mate does it (Estella). But everyone involved is white.

[Hutzpa]

82. Pip was referred to as boy

because of his status, poor, rough living and from a very poor family which are all the attributes that will
lead an Englishman to use the word 'boy' It is demeaning in England to use the word to describe anyone
let alone a black man, anyone that thinks otherwise is being completely ignorant.

[Throd]

7. Is the alien's unfamiliarity with American social norms relevant to the story?

[Coventina]

17. No

[The Straight Story]

8. A court's view: How racist is "boy"?

How racist is "boy"?
Nov 1st 2010, 18:14 by R.L.G. | NEW YORK

THAT was the question facing a federal appeals court in Atlanta, Georgia, which struck down a $1.3m award to a black employee of Tyson Foods. The employee, John Hithon, applied for a promotion. The boss, Tom Hatley, instead brought in two white outsiders, saying that the money-losing plant needed new blood. Mr Hithon sued, saying that Mr Hatley's use of "boy" to him proved racial animus, and was awarded $1.75m. An appeals court overturned the ruling. The federal Supreme Court then sent the case back to trial, saying

The speaker's meaning may depend on various factors including context, tone of voice, local custom and historical usage.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/11/racist_language

[JI7]

10. i think she is racist

[Coventina]

16. I honestly don't think she is.

She replied to me (and also posted on Tumblr) that she'd never heard that "boy" was a racist epithet before today.

And, I believe her as she is European and in her early 20s.

[A Little Weird]

29. I don't think "boy" is as widely recognized as other racist epithets

I was probably in my 20's before I knew 'boy' was a racist epithet and I was born and raised in this country. Growing up, it was not uncommon to hear the term used in a non-racist way. In one of my college history classes, I actually started to learn a little bit about black history. After hearing the term in the racist context it makes me cringe when I hear it now.

I think you did the right thing by pointing it out to her. It would be impossible for anyone to know the subtleties of every language and culture and I would think a writer would appreciate having it pointed out. To me it sounds like she was just overly sensitive to the criticism.

[TroglodyteScholar]

22. No, just ignorant of her subject matter and overly prideful... n/t

[Agnosticsherbet]

11. If she establshed that the alien's concept of language was a little vague...

and he/she/it (gender among aliens can be an iffy thing) spoke only "Tarzan" style English, (Me Tarzan. You Jane. He boy.) then referring to an immature young man of African descent, even just a male, as boy would be understandable within the context of the story, as long as the alien used "girl" or "Jane" for all females.

But if the alien spoke English at a higher level, say 1st grade English, then using the diminutive "boy" is an insult, at best.

I grew up in Oklahoma at a time where a man calling another man "boy" was "fightin" words.

Using that term with an African American is a racial insult meant to keep the "insert bad word here" in his place.

Willing suspension of disbelief is important. For you, that casual use of what would be a recognizable racial slur broke your willing suspension of disbelief and jerked you out of the story. It was a valid critique and you are not being insensitive.

[Coventina]

36. Thanks for your thoughtful post

The character has an excellent command of the language and specifically chooses to call the African American male character "boy" as an insult about their relative ages. The human male is 50-60 years old, the alien thousands of years old.
The two characters have an argument and the alien insults the human by calling him "boy."

Given but the author's background and the background of the character she has created, I know that there is no racial intent in the slur (beyond the implication that "I'm an old, wise being, and you are too young to know what you're talking about and you all die before you can become important beings."

But yeah, hurling an insult and ending with "boy" at an African American man, with other American characters present in the scene....it just doesn't seem like all the characters (including the AA man) would not react to it in some way.

[Agnosticsherbet]

55. I would suggest the author use "child."

It is amore specific word, equally galling, and more accurate.

[d_r]

78. that was the thought that came to me also

[rug]

15. What do you expect from a limey?

[Coventina]

19. She's from Eastern Europe

[rug]

20. OK, I'll stop.

[pinboy3niner]

23. I don't blame you, rug. I blame U.S. Americans' lack of access to maps.

[pinboy3niner]

18. She didn't get your valid point

Regardless of the context of the story, many people (not just African Americans) would cringe at the use of "Boy." Even when not used in a racial context, that's an automatic reaction based on history and, for some, on ugly experience.

And--unless the AA character is a child--why would an alien use that term? It sounds like that may be an internal inconsistency in the story.

[Coventina]

37. Although the African American man is in his 50s or 60s

the alien is much older, and trying to flaunt that against him

[Gormy Cuss]

49. You pointed it out, she chose to dismiss it.

A minor edit, such as having the alien call him "child" would have made a world a difference. Her reaction to you suggests that she's not open to criticism of her writing. You tried, she flipped you off, you can walk away with a clear conscience.

Nice to see you here, coventina!

[Coventina]

51. Thanks, Gormy!

It's nice to see familiar names!
And that people even remember me!
It's been a long time.

[polichick]

21. Sounds like you hit a nerve. Since the character speaking was not...

from Earth, why would he choose "boy" as an insult?

[Coventina]

38. See my post #37 above

He's basically telling the human that he's too young to deal with the dangers of the universe.

[polichick]

50. Seems to me that the writer wouldn't have been bothered by your insights if...

you hadn't hit a nerve. Maybe the use of that word was an embarrassing subconscious slip.

In any case, whenever we're kind and honest, we don't need to worry too much.

[petronius]

24. I think you attempted to do a kind and helpful thing here, and while she

may have reacted defensively at first she will perhaps appreciate it eventually (although you'll never know).

It's hard to say much without reading the story, but I suspect (I'm male, white, USAian) that that usage would be a jarring note and would disrupt the flow of the story. I would likely think that the alien was attempting to condescend and demean, and I'd at least have to examine the racist connotation - all of which would interfere with my suspension of disbelief...

[Coventina]

39. Thanks for the kind support

Last edited Fri Sep 13, 2013, 07:12 AM - Edit history (1)

That's exactly what happened as I read the scene.

A super-old space alien tells off an African American man, and ends it with "boy."

To me, to keep the suspension of disbelief going, either the AA character, or the other American characters would need to react in SOME way.

Probably something like: Hey Galaxy Gus, we understand that you don't know everything about American history, and that's alright, but one thing that is kind of faux pas is calling an adult African American man "

Or something to that effect. I stated more than once that I did not suspect the author Nor her character as being racist - only not knowing about this use of what might seem as an innocent word.

But, apparently my explanations were very poor, as I'm now the racist, Imperialist American who thinks that all language has to be used to our standards and approval.

I tried apologizing once, which lead to the outburst on Tumbr, so I hesitate to try it again.

[JustAnotherGen]

25. I think you should post on

Tumbler (is that like Facebook?) a link to video of Michael on Good Times dressing down his fater because . . . Sorry she's being yucky.

[MADem]

26. There are very few people who can safely call a grown black man "boy."

His mother.

His father.

His grandmother.

His grandfather.

His uncles.

His aunties...

You get the drill.

You were not wrong; the author made an error and the author should thank you, not give you the business.

[TheDeputy]

27. Words are generally not racist.

Intent is. If there was no racist intent, then there was no racism.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. ^this^

[Coventina]

40. I agree, and I do not think that this was an instance of racism BUT

As she was using a word (boy) as an insult to an adult, African American man, it is basically a carbon copy of many many instances of racism.

Watching it happen in front of me would have been painful and awkward to watch.

In the story, there are other witnesses who I have to imagine would also react with various levels of discomfort as well, and I think the natural thing to have happen would be for one of them to catch the alien's arm and say quietly, "Boy is considered insulting to an adult African American man."

But, she and the rest of her followers seem to have only understood that I'm accusing the character of racism. Emphatically stating that I am NOT doesn't seem to help.

*sigh*

[abelenkpe]

28. She should thank you for taking the time to explain that

Because she could potentially cause an uproar and insult many more readers without intending to.

[Coventina]

41. Doubtful, sadly

Judging by the reaction on Twitter, they are all ignorant of the racist use of "boy" and think that I'm an idiot for bringing up the issue, because he CLEARLY is not a bigot.

All true, BUT in that scene he talks like one and acts like one - just not over race ( unless making fun of humans for their short lifespans, regardless of skin color "racist&quot

[bravenak]

30. You tried your best.

Boy is an insult stemming from slavery and Jim Crow. A black man was never considered to be a full fledged man.
I think it would help her writing if she gets feedback. Did she want constructive critisism and analysis or not? If not, you can help her.

[Coventina]

42. Thanks

She says she wants constructive criticism, but I should have paid more attention.

She's lovely to people to give her glowing reviews, but does get defensive over any criticism that isn't just misspellings or grammar.

Another reader expressed issues with this same alien character when a young elf princess committed suicide when he wouldn't help her escape a forced marriage by marrying her himself.

A couple people were uncomfortable by the character referring to her as "silly" "a big pain", generally dismissing the event and only complaining about how it affected him negatively in the community.

So, there were a few readers that had triggers over that kind of behaviour and it was pretty much either not understood or brushed aside by the author.

So, that prior history should have warned me that she's not really open to a wider, more informed, more sensitive use of language.

I wish I had never said anything, because I really was enjoying the story, and it's now heavily tainted by this unpleasantness.

[The empressof all]

31. I think it's racist

But I use it towards white southern men like Eric Cantor or Rand Paul all the time. IE: Somethings not right with that boy. It is dismissive and unless you are referring to a "Good Ol Boy" I think offensive to any grown man.

[Go Vols]

52. Its used quite a bit in the South

to describe grown men.

Bill @ around 0:16

[Starry Messenger]

34. You did the right thing, you alerted her to an insensitive usage.

If she publishes the story here, she's going to hear more about this if the term stays in, but I'd be surprised if it got past an editor.

I'm sorry she dumped on you for doing her a favor and whipped up her followers to harass you.

[Monster_Mash]

35. The great tumblr wars...

[Coventina]

43. You said it!

Before today, I thought Tumblr was kind of great.

Now, I'm pretty disillusioned

[Tanuki]

44. Take it from Martin Luther King, it's offensive

As he said in his Letter from Birmingham Jail:
"But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate-filled policemen curse, kick, brutalize and even kill your black brothers and sisters with impunity; when you see the vast majority of your 20 million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your 6-year-old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see the depressing clouds of inferiority begin to form in her little mental sky, and see her begin to distort her little personality by unconsciously developing a bitterness toward white people; when you have to concoct an answer for a 5-year-old son asking in agonizing pathos, "Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?"; when you take a cross-country drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading "white" and "colored"; when your first name becomes "nigger," your middle name becomes "boy" (however old you are) and your last name becomes "John," and your wife and mother are never given the respected title "Mrs."; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you are forever fighting a degenerating sense of "nobodiness"; then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait."

[Coventina]

45. I want to thank you and all the others who took the time to respond

I really appreciate your insight and perspective.

It helps tremendously, when you're getting called "Hitler" and such.....

[leftyladyfrommo]

46. Well I'm 65 and still get addressed as "girl"

That is not just a black problem.

[Coventina]

47. I know. Women of all backgrounds have been consistently infantalized

as a way to keep them "in their place."

*sigh*

Sometimes the world really gets me down.

[backscatter712]

48. I'm writing my own bit of fiction...

And one of the characters habitually uses the same language - referring to a black character as "boy"...

...but the person speaking this way is a racist villain.

I don't believe in sugar-coating bigotry - when a character is a nasty racist asshole, I'm going to write the dialogue that way.

[dkf]

53. She was apparently trying to make the point that the alien was much older and supposedly wiser.

Is there a better word she could have used that would not have offended you? Or is the idea that an AA 50-60 year old is called something considered condescending your sticking point?

What if the character was white? Would it have been okay?

[Coventina]

70. I didn't really have a sticking point

I was mostly just trying to make her aware of the history of the use of "boy" to de-legitimize African American men, because she used it to address an AA male character, and with other US citizens present, who would probably have some sort of reaction, if she's trying to write realistic reactions into her story.

If the character being called "boy" were white, that racial connotation does not apply.

[geek tragedy]

54. The USA is the largest English language speaking country in the world, by far.

So if she's writing English language fiction, she should know that in US English, "boy" referring to an African-American man is unambiguously racist, and will be taken as such.

It's up to the author to avoid misinterpretation by the reader.

[geek tragedy]

63. I predict MIRT gets this one before double digits of posts. nt

[geek tragedy]

67. You have five posts to prove me wrong, nt

[geek tragedy]

69. And failed to do so. Toodles wherever you are, nt

[Coventina]

71. Wow! I'm gone for years and my returning post gets trolled!

I don't know what to make of that, really.....

Wish I would have seen the posts before they disappeared.
(Morbid curiosity)

[geek tragedy]

75. he talked about how "those people" are "irrational and hypersensitive" etc nt

[JHB]

56. I think the way to ease the gap here, if she'll still listen to you...

...is to backtrack a bit and walk her through the way race and class issues have mixed in the US.

In Europe, the equivalent would be class-based: addressing someone as if you were someone in the upper classes and they they were a servant or menial laborer. It would carry the connotation of a superior talking down to an inferior. The greater wisdom might be there, but expressing it that way carries an extra meaning that undercuts that wisdom (or at least the perception of the speaker as wiser) due to the speaker not being aware of something that's obvious to the listener.

In the US, particularly in the Old South, that same dynamic became racialized as part of the pervasive cultural enforcement to keep blacks "in their place" (and to define "their place" to begin with). Thus men were called "boy" or (if I understand it correctly) once they reached a certain age "uncle".

It's not the practice now except for those who are being deliberately racist, but it's not all that far in the past, and an AA man in his 50s or 60s would pick up on it. How he reacts (or chooses not to react) would depend the relation between the two established in the story, but it wouldn't be absent. Perhaps a subtle jab riposte: "Well, that's something for us to consider. Thank you, Mr. Alien, you're a credit to your race." Whatever.

The main point is that that part didn't ring true for who the character is supposed to be. On a non-charged issue, it's like an instance I've seen of a British writer having an American character refer to gasoline as "petrol" -- just a habitual use of a term that Americans would use "gas" in the same place. Nothing evil, just a detail that pops you out of the story if you're aware of it.

[AverageJoe90]

57. Hi Coventina. May I offer my view?

Well, okay. This Tumblr user you came across really, truly, might not have had any bad intentions at all. And given that she is apparently from Eastern Europe somewhere, from what I've read in later posts, she isn't likely to have read up much on American social norms.

But I also believe she definitely over-reacted: there is *nothing* wrong with pointing out that something in a story might come across as unintentionally insensitive and such. I do think you were in the right here.

In any case, I hope this can get sorted out soon.

[Coventina]

72. Hi AverageJoe90!

You may certainly offer your view.
This post was a request for views!

Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.

[DevonRex]

58. You explained it well here. You tried to do her a favor.

And what you said was true. Therefore none of the problem was of your making.

[TeamPooka]

68. She is a bad writer. Good writers listen to what others say about their work and react appropriately

when a fact such as yours is pointed out.

[Coventina]

73. General thank you and update:

I had a trusted friend take a look at the source material of this issue (I didn't want to post any specifics here because I don't want to cause a bigger uproar than what already exists) and her response was very much in line with what the majority of you have been saying.

My very heartfelt thanks to all of you, you really helped.

[Jenoch]

77. A young Eastern European woman wrote a science fiction/fantasy piece

and posted it on the internet. She inadvertantly used an American slang word that is a pejorative term for black men in the U.S. She got defensive. I'd let it go. How many people are going to read this piece of fiction?

[Coventina]

81. As of right now, she has about 3000 readers who have publicly given her kudos

It's impossible for anyone but the site administrators to say the exact number of readers, but I'm guessing it would probably be at least 10,000 - if 3000 have taken the time to say "great job!"

These days, a mainline publisher would LOVE to have a novel sell 10,000 copies.

[Jenoch]

85. Wow, I had no idea.

I realize she made an error in her word usage, but if she has that many followers, I'd like to read for myself. Do you have a link?

[goldent]

74. I think she viewed this as American "political correctness"

and this is something about Americans that people love to hate (more so than politics because people associate political correctness with the individual, rather than the government).

[Precisely]

76. Does the thread contain what she actually wrote?

It's too bad she didn't get the concept.

[Chan790]

79. As a writer, I'm going to take a different perspective.

The words we put in the mouths of our characters and the actions they take are important as a fraction of character development...how many times have you heard "show don't tell in your writing" or writers excoriated because they feel the need to narrate the action as if it were a story they were telling aloud rather than writing the action?

We know something innately and immediately about the character in any short story who calls an African American peer "boy". We just do. That character is a racist. If it clashes with our previous understanding of the character, it's revelation. If it confirms what we suspected or knew previously, it's affirmation. In no case is any action of a character wasted however even if that action is unintended by the author or meant to convey something other than how it is ultimately interpreted by the reader.

The deconstructionist critic in me feels compelled to argue that the only valid interpretation of the character is the readers' and explicitly not the author's...if she doesn't like the fact that she wrote her character in a way that made him a bigot in interpretation, she needs to make better creative decisions because once made the character ceases to live only in the universe inside her imagination.

[Deep13]

80. "sir," "Doctor," "Professor," "Hey asshole!" "Dude," "Your Honor," "man,"...

I've addressed African-American or non-American black men by all these terms under different circumstances, but never boy. The term "boy" comes from the idea that someone who is in perpetual servitude cannot never be considered to be a full grown man, but is always merely a juvenile. "I am a man," the Memphis trash collectors asserted during their 1968 strike, rejecting the racist term "boy."

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

83. As an author she should recognize her subject

Why the hell would she complain that an American made it about "them" when the character was in fact an American?

I don't have a problem with an author using any word within the context of fiction, as long as it makes sense in relation to the character and how other characters react to it.

It like a few years ago I got into a debate with a guy who claimed Joss Whedon was a bad writer and he was going to stop watching his shows because a character on the show Dollhouse referred to another character as a "retard". This guy felt a good writer would avoid that sort of language.

Now I had to remind this guy that the use of the word "retard" offended him, but the fact the character who used the word was an evil guy engaged in human trafficking, and it was only THEN that he got the gist that the character was a bad guy???

[Coventina]

84. The friend I referred to earlier gave a good explanation of this, I think

She said that because American media (books, movies, TV shows, etc.) dominates the world, people in other countries think they know everything there is to know about American culture.

So, me confronting her about an aspect of American culture that she was previously unaware of first made her deny that "boy" could possibly be offensive. After I presented proof (via web links and such) then she complained that as an American I was "forcing" the meaning that I wanted it to mean, instead of acknowledging that the American characters in her story would very probably react in the same way I did.

*sigh*