General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat Alan Grayson REALLY says about the "Proof Assad Did It" - IN HIS OWN WORDS...
ALAN GRAYSON, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (D-FL): Well, if you're talking about Assad ordering the chemical attacks, the answer is no. And, in fact, all we received, all members of Congress have received, even though we each have classified clearance, is the four-page public document that's declassified that everyone's had available to them, plus a 12-page summary, without any of the underlying intelligence reports. That's what's available to us. We are in essence being asked to vote to go to war on the basis of 16 pages prepared only by the proponents.
Now, you can see the four-page document. You can see that it only makes the case for war without giving you the other side of the story. I can't tell you what's in the 12-page document, but you can draw your own conclusions about that. Even though we have a legal right through our classified clearance to see the underlying documents, the intelligence reports, the SIGINT, the HUMINT, to see these things underneath it all, we haven't been given any of that. In fact, German intelligence, it's been reported through Reuters and The Guardian, has indicated through their intelligence that Assad did not order the attack and in fact ordered that there be no attack and that this was in essence a rogue operation. Frankly, it's disturbing and disappointing to me to see that we get information like that through Reuters and through The Guardian from German intelligence rather than through our own intelligence.
And I think that a great nation like ours needs to have a rational decision-making process when deciding on war and peace. That means giving the decision-makers all the relevant information and letting us make up our minds.
DESVARIEUX: Have you been able to ask the White House for more information? And part two of my question is that there was a report by Gareth Porter from IPS, and he states that essentially the White House culled the information in the public intelligence report, essentially questioning whether or not the White House omitted certain information in order to make sure that they were making the case to strike Syria.
GRAYSON: Well, as you can see from the public document, the four-page document that was released, they've omitted all of the information that goes against their case. There's not a single bit of contrary information in that document. And many members of Congress now, including whole committees in Congress, have asked the administration to provide the underlying intelligence, the signal intelligence, the human intelligence, and so on, and at least let us, through our classified clearance, see the reality of the situation. And so far, after a week of requests, they said they were going to do it and they haven't done it.
....
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=10712
BTW: Here's the report by Gareth Porter referenced above:
Part 1:
Part 2:
msongs
(67,405 posts)Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)It's OK to question the wisdom of attacking Assad, but questioning the non-existent proof is "crazy talk". Why? I think I know why. Putin hints at it in his Op-ed: If they can pin this on Assad and make it stick, there's more to come.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)sheshe2
(83,754 posts)This is titled "The Real News"
Headline:
Our Future Depends on it.....
Then...
Donate Today
Another fundraiser for Grayson?
The Real News Network .com!
Wow I had to stop after that. I was breathless there at the beginning, anticipated some Real News.
If Putin says it it must be true! It must be, right? That's what you are implying. Oh no! you fear for Assad. That they might pin it on him? Are you serious?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)sheshe2
(83,754 posts)What Putin believes is true? Really? Hail Putin. Hail Russia.
Dispatches: What Putin didn't tell the American People
Its not what Vladimir Putins New York Times op-ed says thats so worrisome; its what it doesnt say. As a Russian and as someone who has been to Syria multiple times since the beginning of the conflict to investigate war crimes and other violations, I would like to mention a few things Putin overlooked...
There is not a single mention in Putins article, addressed to the American people, of the egregious crimes committed by the Syrian government and extensively documented by the UN Commission of Inquiry, local and international human rights groups, and numerous journalists: deliberate and indiscriminate killings of tens of thousands of civilians, executions, torture, enforced disappearances and arbitrary arrests. His op-ed also makes no mention of Russias ongoing transfer of arms to Assad throughout the past two and a half years.
The Russian president strategically emphasizes the role of Islamic extremists in the Syrian conflict. Yes, many rebel groups have committed abuses and atrocities. Yet Putin fails to mention that it is the Syrian government that is responsible for shooting peaceful protesters (before the conflict even started) and detaining and torturing their leaders many of whom remain detained and that the continued failure of the international community to respond to atrocities in Syria allows crimes on all sides to continue unaddressed.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/12/dispatches-what-putin-didn-t-tell-american-people
Hey leveymg. Care to talk about these?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)That's a good place to start if you have an interest in determining responsibility for the killing that night. Have anything to say about that?
Or, do you just want to rail against Grayson and Putin?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Are you accusing people who disagree with you here of that? I happen to agree with you in general about this situation, but you think those who disagree are a large movement that is apparently grassroots but in reality is funded by... whom? Americans for Prosperity?
dkf
(37,305 posts)Without him we would truly be at a loss.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)Human Rights Watch, Sanders, Warren and Grayson are all convinced that Assad's forces are guilty.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3657939
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)In his interview with me, Grayson seemed to suggest that he thought it likely that government troops did it. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lesersense/2013/09/01/syria-with-alan-grayson
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)than Assad ordering the attacks. If discipline is breaking down like that, it suggests that boots on the ground may be necessary to stop the attacks.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)"Attitude" is shared by Cynthia McKinney, who also demands proof.
I imagine the Powers that Be will try to minimize Grayson's ability to make a difference, just as the Powers that Be have minimized her.
dkf
(37,305 posts)I think Grayson is doing a good job of keeping within the lines. He has toned it down and it has made him more effective. I applaud his effort to be calm.
2banon
(7,321 posts)Cynthia was easily marginalized.. scattershot rants, and she never learned that women holding public office must never come off as strident particularly when the information (when spoken out loud) is loaded with "outrageous" facts.
Grayson's intellect & analytical abilities and political acumen is sorely needed in Congress. As a woman, I cringe every time Pelosi opens her mouth, really do wish she would retire. Several very progressive women could easily take her seat were it not for the tptb in the party hierarchy that have obstructed that objective these past elections.
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)He's not questioning that the Syrian military carried out the attacks.
So tell me true: what's the more dangerous situation - Assad in complete control of his military, ordering the attacks to happen?
Or Assad losing control of his military, and they've started doing chemical weapons attacks and ignoring his wishes in the matter?
The first one calls for a limited strike as President Obama has done, barring Assad declaring his chemical weapons, signing the treaty banning their use, and even giving up his supply.
The second calls for an international mission with boots on the ground.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)He references the German intel as directly contradicting the US characterization - not that he's willing to bet the farm on either.
to wit:
...
In fact, German intelligence, it's been reported through Reuters and The Guardian, has indicated through their intelligence that Assad did not order the attack and in fact ordered that there be no attack and that this was in essence a rogue operation. Frankly, it's disturbing and disappointing to me to see that we get information like that through Reuters and through The Guardian from German intelligence rather than through our own intelligence.
...
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)He's saying the intel is not there on Assad ordering it. Read it again - he changes the question and answers the one he wants to answer.
Which is fine. It's a good point that we don't have Assad's fingerprints irrefutably on the attack. But no one seriously is questioning that the Syrian military carried out the August 21 chemical weapons attack.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Congressman, in the hearing yesterday, you pressed this issue of whether the administration was misrepresenting the evidence it had. Could you elaborate further on that? Andbecause thats obviously a very important charge, if its true.
REP. ALAN GRAYSON: Well, The Daily Caller reported in great detail that the report that the administration relied upon, in which the administration said that the Assad government must have been involved in this attack and ordered this attack because afterward one of the Assad generals commented on it, well, according to The Daily Caller, the comment was "We didnt do this," or words to that effect. And the administration hasif thats the case, if that was the comment, the administration has completely mischaracterized it.
And, in fact, as far as I can tell, not a single member of Congress has actually seen the underlying document. Whats been provided to us so far is a four-page unclassified document and, if we bother to go down to the bowels of the congressional facility here, a 12-page classified document. But that classified document cites 300 underlying intelligence reports, none of which have been released to any member of Congress, despite the fact that we all have classified clearance. And I indicated that if there is some possibility that the administration is misleading the public regarding any of those 300 documents, then that has to be dispelled. We cant go to war by mistake again.
....
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/9/5/rep_alan_grayson_on_syria_congress
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)And today Alan Grayson isn't mentioning that comment from the Daily Caller at all. The only thing he's questioning today is if Assad ordered it.
That's because the culpability of the Syrian military in the August 21 chemical weapons attack is beyond question at this point. And as I've said, if the military is getting out of civilian control in Syria, then the situation is beyond dangerous and needs international boots on the ground ASAP to secure those weapons.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)Why haven't they given Grayson the intel?
And why are you so anxious to put words in his mouth?
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)is fooling themselves. They want to be fooled.
The missiles were shot from government controlled areas. The French report included satellite pictures showing this. There were twelve different outbreak points. The videos of sarin gas victims are unrefutable. The Assad military has been recorded practicing shots with the same kind of missiles used in the August 21 attack.
Grayson today is very careful to state that it's about Assad ordering the attack, not that the Syrian military didn't carry it out. I'm not putting those words into his mouth. It's you putting "Syrian military didn't do it" into his mouth, Junkdrawer.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)Kamal Hamami, of the Free Syrian Army's (FSA) Supreme Military Council, was meeting members of the rival group "to discuss battle plans".
An FSA spokesman said he was told by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant that they had killed Mr Hamami.
The killing is part of an escalating struggle within the armed uprising between moderates and Islamists.
The BBC's Paul Wood says a civil war within a civil war is building within the opposition as the two sides engage in a battle that is partly over the spoils and partly ideological.
....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23283079
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Would you like to try again, or would you like to fall back on the Just Asking Questions gambit?
Response to Bolo Boffin (Reply #21)
Post removed
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Well, since I used to deal with 9/11 Truthers all the time, I'm used to the uncalled-for abuse. Go in peace. Go with your illusions.
Response to Bolo Boffin (Reply #24)
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Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
dkf
(37,305 posts)Yes they could have because the rebels are also infighting as they are interested in controlling their own territory. There was just a report that the Kurds and Al-Nusra have been seeing casualties fighting each other. If you don't get this, you have barely begun to examine this conflict.
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Control your straw men.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Your post "19. Anyone who seriously thinks the rebels gassed themselves or other rebels on August 21 is fooling themselves. They want to be fooled. "
Response to dkf (Reply #32)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Not using Syrian military weapons shot from Syrian military-controlled areas of Damascus (verified by satellite pictures released by the French, pictures of the non-exploded missiles on the ground after the attack, and a video of the Syrian military using those exact same missiles in training).
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I haven't seen it yet.
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Perhaps I misread, though. I thought the images had been released. I'm not finding them, though.
This Frence site in Australia has a little Powerpoint slide thing from France. It doesn't have the satellite pictures, either.
http://www.ambafrance-au.org/Assessment-of-Syria-s-Chemical
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Link in thread (3/5 way down) - Slide down to 6:51 pm BST: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/02/syria-crisis-obama-meet-mccain-over-support-military-action-live
leveymg
(36,418 posts)In the meantime, here is a video of a similar rocket launcher being used by the rebels and a video of an opposition arms factory that makes rockets.
(1:22 to end)
and opposition rocket workshop:
(:47 to end)
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)But it was a good old college try, leveymg. Points for effort!
First off, there's a picture here of a part of one of the missiles used in the August 21 attack. You will notice that it could not be fired in either of the launchers in your videos. Notice also design features of the tail section there.
http://www.janes.com/article/26414/syrian-military-allegedly-used-makeshift-rockets-in-chemical-attack
And another one from TPM:
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/obama-no-decision-on-syria-yet-any-action
The Guardian has already reported the missiles used on 8-21 were the same as ones used previously by the Syrian military as far back as January 2013:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/22/syria-missiles-similar-chemical-weapons-attack
Some pictures of Syrian military uniforms available here, below the graphics:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/syria_syrian_army_ranks_combat_military_uniforms/syria_syrian_army_ranks_military_combat_field_uniforms_dress_grades_uniformes_combat_armee_syrie.html
Notice in particular the red berets.
Now for the video:
Now I know it's completely mislabeled. It's not of the actual chemical attack because it's happening in the daylight. No one in the picture is using respirators at all, which they would be if those rockets had sarin in them. If it's later the same day, the bombing of those same areas that the Syrian military did carry out later that day was done with conventional weapons, not chemical weapons. (You can see a UN inspector sampling next to the missile debris at TPM. So that's not a missile from later on.)
So I see this as a video of the Syrian military training with these rockets, the same kind of rockets used in the August 21 attack. Anyone can see that the tail of this rocket is a match for the pictures of rocket debris found in the aftermath of the Aug 21 attack. In fact, the Jane's article above has a still from this video in its article. I can't see how they used it since that part of the article is behind a paywall.
There are longer versions of this video out there. The one I picked was the one that gets to the heart of the missile launch.
Compare the missile used in the attack with this video of rebels using what is said to be chemicals weapons:
The design of the rocket is completely different here and it's also much smaller equipment.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)I was merely pointing out that both sides have the capability to make and launch the sort of crude Improvised Rocket Assisted Munitions (IRAM) reportedly used to deliver Sarin gas on 8/21. In fact, there is a third party that reportedly introduced this specific type of IRAM -- or something very similar -- to Syria. They started showing up last year after being used by units of Hezbollah, and until 8/21 were associated with foreign militia not the Syrian Army. They are also described as being highly inaccurate with limited range because of their high drag, lack of spin stabilization, and very poor flight characteristics. Of you will note, these things have a single central rocket nozzle rather than six canted outlets which are a stabilizing feature of the Fajr-1 based devices described, so these are true improvised devices not standard artillery rockets. In other words, the devices used on 8/21 are essentially home-made, and could have been made and launched by anyone.
Brown Moses Blog
Tuesday, 18 June 2013
DIY Weapons In Syria - Hezbollah Deploys IRAMs In Qusayr
A few weeks ago I was sent a photograph of a unidentified munition recovered by fighters in Qusayr, reportedly fired by government forces
My eye was drawn to the markings, with "M220" possibly referring to part of an BGM-71 TOW, a type of US wire-guided missile, or the M220 propelling cartridge for M889A1/M889A2/M821A2 81mm high explosive mortar bombs. However, it wasn't clear how either would relate to this munition, so this device remained a mystery.
Thanks to the freelance journalist Josh Wood I now have much more information on these items, including a gallery of photographs, and details of how they were actually used. Josh told me this about his interview with the opposition fighter who provided the images
This weapon was used by Hezbollah forces in Qusayr. He described them as 107mm rockets fitted to something with a higher payload, with the 107mm propelling everything. He said the max range on these was about 1 km, but most of the time they were simply fired across the street horizontally at extremely close range. By his description, one of these could do significant damage to a small house. He said that these rockets really helped Hezbollah shift the tide in parts of that front-line.
The description of the damage it did to buildings reminded me of something Colonel Aqidi of the Free Syrian Army said in his interview about the situation he encountered in Qusayr
The enemy was applying a scorched earth policy by firing Iranian vacuum bombs, which caused whole building to fall down.
He may not be referring to these devices, as there was a lot of ordnance being used, but I'd assume he'd know the bombs dropped by the air-force are all Soviet. So what is this device?
I believe what we have here is what's know as an IRAM, an Improvised Rocket Assisted Mortar/Munition. In it's most basic form it's a barrel of explosives with a rocket motor attached (commonly from 107mm rockets), which allows an oversized payload to be launched a short range. It's a weapon used extensively in Iraq, as former United States Navy explosives ordnance disposal officer John Ismay told the New York Times
These weapons were solely used by Jaysh al Mahdi (JAM) Special Groups, which were the Shia fighting groups trained/funded/financed/equipped by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps and the Quds Force.
If Im not mistaken, only one group was really tied to the IRAM, and that was Kataib Hezbollah.
Kataib Hezbollah shouldn't been mistaken for Lebanon's Hezbollah, but they do have some obvious things in common with each other.
As the above New York Times article points out, this isn't the first time IRAMs have been spotted in Syria, with around a dozen videos posted so far. What is interesting about this IRAM is the design is very different from the others used so far, as appears to have a much larger warhead.
Both types use 107mm rockets, but in the earlier IRAMs the warhead appears to be generally smaller than the rocket, while in the above example it seems larger. CJ Chivers had this to say on the warhead
The point re: the M220 is not that the warhead originated from either a TOW or a mortar round; that's not especially important, because obviously it is not either. It's that someone may have repurposed a munitions storage case instead of using a large pipe, water tank, small barrel etc for a DIY projectile.
I spoke to John Ismay, and asked him about the design of the IRAM:
I was wondering if this looks like a design you've encountered before?
The design in the photographs doesn't look like the ones we encountered in Iraq. Those generally used an acetylene tank for a warhead section. The fuzes were a pyrotechnic time-delay and were generally all of the same design.
The tail section is very different from what we've seen in previous IRAMs, what are your thoughts on it's design?
The tail section shown in the photographs is curious, and probably is one of several reasons this weapon failed to function as designed. The Fadjr-1 is an Iranian copy of the Chinese Type 63 artillery rocket. These rockets have six canted venturi nozzles that impart instantaneous stabilizing spin to the weapon, thus freeing it from needing a rifled launcher. Check this page for some diagrams.
Thus, the added tail section is superfluous, and only adds weight to the tail. I suppose it's possible that the designer thought the addition would better help it fit into a cylindrical launcher, but this is really a cosmetic change at best and an additional destabilizing mod (on an already non-aerodynamic system) at worst.
Notice in the video you posted that most of the people clamoring over the launcher are not in uniform. While the quality of the video is very poor, to my eye I see men with clothes of various colors -- red, blue and white shirts -- closest to the rocket. I was unable to see red berets, and we have to take the opposition's word for where and when this was taken -- there are no identifiable landmarks.
I am coming to the conclusion that it is possible that at some of these rockets were launched by militias that night, and at much closer range than the Kerry report represented. If, indeed, that is the case, these same loyalist militia may have actual loyalties and agendas that are really unknown. It also points to evidence that conflicts with the conclusions drawn that this was carried out under ordered by the regime.
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Here's a post collecting a lot of info specifically about the August 21 attack.
http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/08/collected-media-of-munitions-linked-to.html
And here:
http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/08/proof-syrian-military-is-using.html
And here:
http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-mystery-component-of-umlaca.html
The last link has a link to the longer video I remember seeing. If the shorter one I posted didn't have the red berets in it, I'm sorry. This one does.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)a military training exercise. It's a demonstration or test of a 333mm. There's no way to tell if it's an HE or gas rocket.
The white shirt is among the most active in directing the others and is the last to leave - he strolls off almost nonchalantly just before the launch, as if he's seen a lot of these things go off and is familiar with them -- and he's also among the first group to come back. The red and blue shirts on the back of the truck who are doing the arming are also clearly not in military uniform.
I'm thinking this may have been taken some weeks or months before 8/21. From the lighting, was taken either in the morning or toward the end of the day, but almost everyone has their sleaves rolled down as if it's cool. May or June, maybe?
That's a pretty sizable rocket - it looks like the motor is a good six to seven feet long. A bit bigger than the ones in the photos of the remains that were found after the 8/22 attack. There are two sizes - 140mm and 333mm. Why is this video just emerging now, and can you identify the watermark?
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)They are working with them.
You are aware Brown Moses worked with Human Right Watch to produce their September 10 paper, Attacks on Ghouta: Analysis of Alleged Use of Chemical Weapons in Syria, in which they conclude the Syrian government is the most likely source for the August 21 attack?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/10/syria-government-likely-culprit-chemical-attack
And to state the obvious for those at home, chemical weapons don't need pinpoint precision. They need to be able to fly over there, away from the people firing them.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)I thought these were all "innocent children and women"
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)The CT is that either they gassed themselves or a rival group gassed them to frame the Syrian government.
Many innocents died in the attack.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)The State Dept report map also appears to be inaccurate or at least inconsistent with other reports that had two launch sites: the military airport at the south of Damascus and the October War Panorama Museum. The location for the latter is shown to be in contested area - the State Dept claimed that all launches were from (unspecified) "regime-controlled territory." Both can't be right. Also, the State Dept report map shows that the launch site and Duma - the most distant target is at least five miles (more like 6-7 on this map). The longest recorded flight of one of these flying truck muffler rockets is about 2 miles.
These rockets are highly inaccurate, and have been used previously for close-in bombardment, not distant attacks with chemical weapons. The Syrian military has modern artillery shells and rockets for that purpose.
These things may have been launched by Hezbollah, which first imported them.
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Arguing against all credible evidence for the position you want to believe is no way to live life.
Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #13)
polichick This message was self-deleted by its author.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)"BECAUSE OBAMA!"
[/h2][/font color=red]
Response to Bolo Boffin (Reply #9)
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Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Welcome back if that's the case.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)>>>Frankly, it's disturbing and disappointing to me to see that we get information like that through Reuters and through The Guardian from German intelligence rather than through our own intelligence. >>>
... "or through our own *media*."
ProSense
(116,464 posts)(Reuters) - Syrian government forces may have carried out a chemical weapons attack close to Damascus without the personal permission of President Bashar al-Assad, Germany's Bild am Sonntag paper reported on Sunday, citing German intelligence.
Syrian brigade and division commanders had been asking the Presidential Palace to allow them to use chemical weapons for the last four-and-a-half months, according to radio messages intercepted by German spies, but permission had always been denied...This could mean Assad may not have personally approved the attack close to Damascus on August 21 in which more than 1,400 are estimated to have been killed, intelligence officers suggested.
<...>
Members of the foreign affairs committee present at the briefing told Reuters Schindler had said that although the BND did not have absolute proof Assad's government was responsible, it had much evidence to suggest it was.
This included a phone call German spies intercepted between a Hezbollah official and the Iranian Embassy in Damascus in which the official said Assad had ordered the attack.
<...>
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/08/us-syria-crisis-germany-idUSBRE98707B20130908
This indicates that Assad disscussed the attack with his military, and there is evidence that pro-Assad Hezbollah stated that he "ordered the attack." Assad bears responsibility for his military, especially given the discussions with "brigade and division commanders" and the known role of his brother. This report makes the situation even more precarious.
Also, it's not like there aren't more confirmations.
Human Rights Watch: Syria: Government Likely Culprit in Chemical Attack
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023634928
Wilms
(26,795 posts)and then...
Human Rights Watch: Syria: Government Likely Culprit in Chemical Attack
Would you please share with our community why you think the word "likely" should be interpreted as "confirmation"?
Thanks.
"Would you please share with our community why you think the word "likely" should be interpreted as "confirmation"? "
...because you're still apparently clinging to doubt that Assad didn't do it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023634928
Wilms
(26,795 posts)And you're still at it.
Please share with our community why you think the term, "strongly suggests", should be interpreted as "confirmation".
Thanks.
And please understand my concern.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Is Grayson delusional for attributing it to the Syrian forces?
One can debate whether or not you think Assad ordered it, but clinging to doubt that the Syrian forces weren't responsible is simply being in denial.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)Grayson's comments are addressed elsewhere in this thread.
Thanks for the response.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)reportedly not of the same type held by the Syrian military.
Several parties are manifestly capable of having manufactured and used similar devices and agents the night of 8/21. HRW had no direct access to the evidence upon which the State Department claims to have made its own similar, flawed conclusions.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)for employing largely the same biases and presumptions as the authors of the flawed State Dept. report.
As for Hezbollah, there are several factions fighting inside Syria. They aren't under Syrian gov't control and don't really represent anyone except their own leadership and self-perceived interests. They're a wild-card, and have been penetrated and compromised by third-parties in the past. See, http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/03/24/zygier-case-revealed-in-failing-to-penetrate-iran-and-hezbollah-he-exposed-israeli-spies-in-lebanon/
dkf
(37,305 posts)What two third parties say to each other and that's your evidence?
Gawd almighty.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Even if you dimiss the evidence that pro-Assad Hezbollah stated that he "ordered the attack," Assad bears responsibility for his military, especially given his discussions with "brigade and division commanders" and the known role of his brother. This report makes the situation even more precarious.
Still, while some are still hanging onto a thread to absolve Assad of the attack, he has already jumped into negotiations to secure his chemical arsenal.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)There are a couple vectors that point to that. First, the rockets are improvised devices virtually identical to those that were introduced to Syria and began to be used by Hezbollah fitted with conventional munitions warheads late last year. The Syrian military has its own type of chemical weapons shells that are standardized and entirely different.
Second, there is evidence that the Syrian Minister of Defense did not authorize that launch and was "panicked" when he learned about the use of gas that night. The German's have intercepted a number of communications in which the Syrian gov't has denied launch authorization, even to its own military units that were being overrun.
Third, there is this report that someone in Hezbollah in Lebanon is making claims that Assad authorized the launch. That would appear to contradict the pattern. Sounds like it's either a provocation or disinformation.
DallasNE
(7,403 posts)If anyone named Assad ordered this then does it really matter? It is not "rogue" if that is the case. In fact, I have kind of felt that the brother was more likely to have ordered this from the start. Do I have any proof? No, just my reading of the tea leaves.
For those that think a faction of the rebels did this, where would they have gotten ahold of these weapons? An Assad insider? I'm not ready to go there.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)As for the weapons used, the rockets are crude improvised devices similar to those used by all sides across Syria and Iraq. The type of Sarin was reported to be less sophisticated and potent than the military grade chemicals held in the Syrian stockpiles.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Uncle Joe
(58,361 posts)Thanks for the thread, Junkdrawer.
polichick
(37,152 posts)What's the big secret that can't be shared with the people's representatives?
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)And that is not that in revealing the details they would also have to reveal other stuff that would be embarrassing to the security state. No, they can redact anything they don't want to disclose.
The only reasonable explanation is that the deeper you dig, the more shaky the proposition becomes.
It never made ANY sense that Assad would do this. Why would he want to give the US an excuse for coming in and tipping a battle he was winning? That is preposterous.
And did the rebels do it? That's a tough one also, until one understands that there isn't one unified opposition. The "rebels" consist of lots of different groups, and some might see a very good reason to get the USE to come in and stir up the shit.
There are other possibilities, of course. There could be rogue elements within Assad's regime who might see an opportunity to rise if the US were to knock Assad out.
And then there is always the possibility of false flag operations. It is not hard to see why Israel might want to force the US into action. And in a strange way, there could be scenario where Putin might see an advantage in getting the US all twisted in this matter.
Lots of possibilities. The only one that seems completely ridiculous is the one that the Administration was trying to put across -- without any real evidence, it seems.
polichick
(37,152 posts)without having seen the underlying intelligence reports.
Blind trust when you're talking about blowing people up? Never a good idea!
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)Conventional wisdom is that when the President wants to go to war, the safer position is to support that. You can always argue that you were just supporting the President, and it was all his fault.
And in that case, it is HELPFUL to not see any real evidence because you can later blame it in faulty intelligence. "Gee whiz, what was I to do? They said they were as sure as sure can be. If I am guilty of anything it is for trusting the experts too much."
polichick
(37,152 posts)and it's the kind of thing that makes me cringe when someone identifies me as an American when I'm overseas.
Maybe I should wear a button that says "The U.S. gov't does not represent the American people. Really. I Swear."
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)People's lives are at stake.
2banon
(7,321 posts)thanks for posting these clips..