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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPutin's opinion is essentially a reflection of the world's opinion of the U.S.
for those that have never traveled or lived outside the U.S. To be offended by this suggests the inability to cope and embrace the truth that what he says is true. But once again trying to attack the messenger instead of the message (eg Snowden) is a trademark of American exceptionalism, uber-nationalism and lock step party loyalty are all traits loathed by non Americans abroad. Refusing to ask the hard questions and accepting how grand our nation is basically betrays the founding fathers grounded principles. The founding fathers started to ask questions about the British Empire and how it over stepped it bounds and how it needed to be fairer with citizens living abroad. Doesn't this sound familiar? Think about it. 
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)but it is a lecture when you actually learn something from it. Maybe you will and highly recommend you read and listen to what non Americans think abroad.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I do and I have...How dare you assume everyone who might happen to disagree with you are just dumb "yokels" who have never been anywhere...
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)the floor is yours and explain your experiences abroad.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)as I always say...please continue...
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)debate, then turn down the opportunity to present your argument. Well done.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)I have lived in Italy and Greece for quite a bit.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)to two different countries....a total of 8 times....satisfied?
I never suggested YOU have never been out of the country have I? YOU made that statement.
But again....please continue to inform us how everyone here that happens to disagree is a hayseed who has never left the country...
Please do go on!
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)are you agreeing that everyone that disagrees is a stupid hick who has just never left the country?
Is that really want to say?
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)or are YOU agreeing that everyone that disagrees is just a stupid hick?
Is that the position you want to take?
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)If I were you I'd move on, it's a waste of breath otherwise.
Puglover
(16,380 posts)they are everywhere. Good advice. Move on.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I lurked here mostly but when the Democratic President started being trashed....I decided to fight back. Because it disgusts me...
But do go on....
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Drama
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)that was the biggest load of "drama" I have ever seen
Puglover
(16,380 posts)I am sure our President is beside himself with gratitude. 
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I never posted anything about Agent Defeat Weapons at all huh?
Like you even knew what they were before that...
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)If that's what you call them....I call them sources to back my claims...but whatever...
sendero
(28,552 posts).. your posts.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Perhaps if Putin mentioned and critiqued some of their own weaknesses and mistakes, it would have been a more effective piece..
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)nice try. 
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Your personal feelings about recent events don't change people's long run attitudes about the U.S.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and not reported much outside of Pakistan media. Libya intervention was supported by most of Europe but when it comes to Syria...U.S. is left standing out in the cold with a few of the "coalition of the willing".
morningfog
(18,115 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)North African countries save Egypt were excluded but perhaps you only count what the EU excluding Greece of course think could that be it? oops I forgot Canada they like us too
pampango
(24,692 posts)That was not putin's message, IMHO.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)but the saber rattling has picked up the last few weeks and Putin provided a nice humble pie.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Oh wait you didn't do that. You stated an opinion as though you had supported it with some sort of evidence.
And those hard questions the founding fathers were asking were at least as much about money and land as they were about philosophical arguments about government. The colonies were angry over the debts incurred during the French and Indian war and over the agreements of the British government to limit the land available to colonists that were made to gain the support of Indian tribes.
And much of the talk about liberty and freedom came out of the fact that so many of the founding fathers owned slaves. It's not a coincidence that of the first 12 presidents all but 2 of them owned slaves.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)During the Bush era, we knew the answer. What changed?
JI7
(89,249 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)been there. It is just re-surfacing again because of the saber rattling. But it would be foolish for us Americans to ignore that these emotions still reside deeply inside non American citizens abroad.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)A closer look reveals reservations on the more serious issues:
[center]*****[/center]
There remains a widespread perception that the U.S. acts unilaterally and does not consider the interests of other countries. In predominantly Muslim nations, American anti-terrorism efforts are still widely unpopular. And in nearly all countries, there is considerable opposition to a major component of the Obama administration’s anti-terrorism policy: drone strikes. In 17 of 20 countries, more than half disapprove of U.S. drone attacks targeting extremist leaders and groups in nations such as Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia.
[center]*****[/center]
On a number of specific issues, there is a sense that Obama has not lived up to the expectations people had for him when he first took office. The 2009 Pew Global Attitudes survey found that many believed the new American president would act multilaterally, seek international approval before using military force, take a fair approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and make progress on climate change. As the current survey reveals, few now believe he has actually accomplished these things.
For instance, looking at the countries surveyed in both 2009 and 2012, a median of 56% in 2009 expected Obama to take significant steps to deal with climate change. Today, a median of just 22% think he has actually done this.
[center]*****[/center]
U.S. style democracy receives mixed reviews around the globe. Italy is the only European country in which a majority (58%) says they like American ideas about democracy. However, views in Europe have become much more positive on this question since it was last asked in 2007 – a time when ratings for the U.S. were generally low across the region.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/07/18/chapter-1-attitudes-toward-the-united-states/
polichick
(37,152 posts)I always want to explain that the American people aren't okay with the crap our gov't does.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)My wife and I were in Persian restaurant/shisha bar and spoke with young Muslim people. They were excited about Obama (election was still a month away) and believed Bush was bad actor but U.S. generally was a good actor on U.S. Stage.
However, your or my anecdotal data isn't as important as empirical data which says U.S. Is still highly thought of by people in many nations.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)world attitudes have shifted, and they have since the Syria situation the last month or so.
polichick
(37,152 posts)Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)We are killing people every day. Name another country over the past decade that has killed so many innocent people??
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)
ReRe
(10,597 posts)Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Point.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Is there no messenger that cannot be shot? And I write that as an Englishman by the way. This Brit definitely disagrees with you.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Didn't they get the memo that Noam Chomsky is the Son of Gdd and Prophet of Truth?
go west young man
(4,856 posts)each other around DU scratching each other's backs? Your inseparable.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I thought that was a bad thing, to put all your trust in one person?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)something you would like to believe is not true?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Apparently he has not really looked into the matter.
His anti-US bias is well known. He's not the person to check with on this.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Chomsky arguments hold plenty of water. Man DU has gone centrist/right these days.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)are and how those policies have made the US the biggest threat to world peace today. It's just a fact.
orenbus
(44 posts)Iraq war 10 years on: at least 116,000 civilians killed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/9932214/Iraq-war-10-years-on-at-least-116000-civilians-killed.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/23/world/middleeast/23casualties.html
http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/
Not including refugees both internal in Iraq and external to Jordan and Syria, health related impacts on children in Iraq, or civilian deaths in other countries due to clandestine operations.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Threats to world peace come from Al Qaeda, the Middle Eastern dictatorships, North Korea and various third world countries with brewing ethnic conflicts.
The civil war in Syria was going on already. That government used chemical weapons. That's a threat to world peace.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)I tell them I'm Canadian.
polichick
(37,152 posts)
Skittles
(153,160 posts)they guess British, Canadian, Scandinavian, etc......they're VERY surprised to find out I am American
RC
(25,592 posts)Glassunion
(10,201 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)I had a Canadian flag patch stitched to my backpack...
"What part of the States are you from? Toronto."
fletchthedubs
(41 posts)What our govt has done and that I've paid for those actions.
polichick
(37,152 posts)Welcome to DU!
treestar
(82,383 posts)I have run into nothing but nice treatment while traveling abroad.
Daniel537
(1,560 posts)either never travel abroad, or are lying about their experiences. This whole "everyone hates Americans" meme is utter nonsense.
polichick
(37,152 posts)having a conscience, caring about what is done across the world in our name.
polichick
(37,152 posts)Once again, your reading comprehension needs work.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)what Putin had to say was bullshit has "an inability to cope and embrace the truth", is displaying "ubber nationalism and lock-step party loyalty", and is "betraying the founding fathers' principles".
Well, I guess you've told us.
* The Snowden reference was a bit over-the-top, but amusing in its pretension.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)Because he is so anti LGBT? It is not a secret he is a right wing, ultra christian quasi-dictator and yet what he says makes the lone super power in the west boiling with anger...why? Because it is true and it hurts a lot coming from a shady guy like Putin (Mr. Kraft would agree on this).
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)perhaps we are not communicating well because we apparently live on different planets.
No one I know in real life is "boiling with anger" over this - or anything else that DU always insists people are "boiling with anger" over, or find "chilling", or consider to be "the end of democracy as we know it".
The data shows that the US is pretty widely respected around the world - and I might add that Obama has been a great contributor to adding to that respect.
Read your own post: Putin is anti LGBT, right wing, ultra christian quasi-dictator, but we should all listen to what he has to say, even if it is coming from a shady guy like Putin.
otohara
(24,135 posts)This was just last month...
“A global median of 54 percent across the 39 countries surveyed by Pew Research in 2013 express confidence in Obama to do the right thing in world affairs, while just 47 percent approve of his international policies,” Kohut notes. “The gap between people’s trust in the American president and their support for his policies is particularly large in Canada (+16 percentage points) and some Western European nations, such as Britain (+11).”
President’s Obama’s median popularity of 42 percent is more than double that of G20 summit host Vladimir Putin’s 19 percent. The only country where Putin inspires more confidence than Obama is China.
Putin @ 19% in the world
http://www.nationalmemo.com/poll-obama-still-most-popular-world-leader/
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)how do you reconcile that?
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)a poll that says exactly what I've been saying?
Duh - I give.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The US is a polarized country. In fact, a heavily polarized country.
It used to be that you could see this "different reality" when talking to Republicans, especially the right to far right republicans. These days you also see it here between the right wing, in a few cases far right wing conservadems, and the rest of us.
It's to the point that it is fracturing things further.
So congratulations, you actually stumbled into a very real problem. And yes, to the point that indeed, "we do inhabit different planets."
I could try, but shan't, to explain why this is a problem. Because as you said, we inhabit different realities, and while we might speak the same language, we really don't inhabit the same reality.
So yes,quite possibly for the first and last time, I agree with you.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)hit on the truth, not did I "stumble" onto anything.
The different planets I was referring to are Planet Earth (where most of us reside) and Planet DU (where 'reality' is what gets posted, and has very little to do with what is happening in the real world).
I believe you've told me at least three times that I have been condemned to your infamous Iggy List. So why you keep responding to me is a mystery ...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Duh!
Still you stumbled upon the truth.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)that I'm not on it. Which makes me wonder why you keep threatening people with your Iggy List, when you don't put them on it anyway.
I stated the truth as I see it. Whether you think I "stumbled" upon what you think is 'the truth' is of no consequence to me whatsoever.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Mostly you are very entertaining in a dark way.
You stumbled upon the truth. The divisions you are seeing here are also present in central committees and precincts in the real world, if you want to speak in that sense.
Take it or leave it, I don't give two shits about it. But I hear this in the field, often in fact. Perhaps because I cover politics as one of my beats.
Gets better, this is not just a Democratic Party thing.
And if perchance you are curious, you could go check this out with political analysts, or perhaps not. But the polarization of American society is a well known fact these days, both within and outside both parties.
As I said, you stumbled upon it.
Now back to the comedy. You are funny.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)as you referring to "covering politics as one of your beats"!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Really. I know what I do, and that tomorrow I will be covering precisely, exactly, that beat.
But you are hilarious. Keep it up. You are quite entertaining.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)the near future if the Republicans and DLC continue to obtain their way. Would you have felt better if it came from Ataturk himself? When the focus is always the messenger and not the message it points to how warped Americans' have become with their own world view. It is essentially a bubble that they think they are only exceptional to live in.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)about people being warped by their own views, you might try to get this through your head: A lot of people are disagreeing with Putin's message, despite the messenger.
The people who are living in a bubble are those who insist that anyone who disagrees with them have a "warped view", want to "kill the messenger", etc.
And DU has become the biggest bubble of all - where the real world has little meaning, and DU World has replaced real life.
Sugarcoated
(7,724 posts)Perfect
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)Putin's interests in the Middle East and Syria in particular are the same as ours....oil and arms. So to be chided for meddling, when he is just as guilty (more guilty, in Syria's case) is aggravating. It's not insulting to my patriotism, it's insulting to my intelligence.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)we didn't like it when the Russians played in our backyard either (Cuba) so look at that hypocrisy. We saw it as a direct threat to our ability to exert our sphere of influence in the region and national security which almost led to WWIII. Putin clearly is trying to re-exert the sphere of influence the Soviet Union once had which is why Syria is seen as integral to that long term objective.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)Any thoughts on the US's history of bloody meddling in Central America?
Excused by the "backyard" argument?
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)Northern and Southern American countries and especially the area that is called "central America".
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)But never mind that, now...his MIC is somehow less offensive than ours, for some reason...?
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)with Darth Obama at the helm. We kill people throughout the world and Russia has NEVER done that. Oh help us Obi One Putin, you are are only hope!
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)Before that, a serious WTF moment was shaping up, lol.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I was in a bit of a snarky mood when I wrote that. I know, shocker! 
MADem
(135,425 posts)Cue the swooning!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)or Yemen or Iraq or Afghanistan or Somalia etc.
The US just Cluster to Saudi Arabia. We provide money and weapons to some of the nastiest people on the planet, but when someone else does it, OMG! It's a CRIME.
That is a pretty weak answer to the question I asked. He would have to be killing people for the rest of his life to catch up with just the people we've killed and tortured and destroyed in Iraq alone.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Give what you assert in that post, I fail to ses how Putin's moti es are somehow purer than our's since the goal is ostensibly the same-to protect against Al Qaeda. Now I would agree ou policies toward the Saudis could use some serious revisions, but the little pat on the head you just gave Putin, who is a nasty piece of work himself, is laughable.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Syria with weapons' was the part about the West supplying the so-called 'rebels' from the beginning. And the Saudis supplying them with CW.
If you're going to comment on the supply of weapons then comment on all sides.
Arms Sales is a very big and lucrative business and airc, during the Bush years we were not shy about discussing the role of the US, but Bush was president then, in this rotten game. I also remember reading lots about Cheney's friend, one of the world's top arms dealers, who it was feared, might have the ability to sell nukes to extremists.
It is a new thing on Democratic boards to ignore what we had no problem admitting during the Bush years.
Putin's motives are the same as ours, neither is pure. But imo as it always was when Bush invaded Iraq eg, there are better ways to accomplish those goals than invading and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people. WHICH WE DID. Or have you forgotten?
Russia and China back then refused to join in those invasions. WE on the LEFT applauded them and hoped they would prevail. NOT because we thought they were 'good guys', but because we know BUSH WAS LYING.
MADem
(135,425 posts)72. He's defending his country from Al Qaeda Terrorists. I don't see him droning people in Pakistan
or Yemen or Iraq or Afghanistan or Somalia etc.
The US just Cluster to Saudi Arabia. We provide money and weapons to some of the nastiest people on the planet, but when someone else does it, OMG! It's a CRIME.
That is a pretty weak answer to the question I asked. He would have to be killing people for the rest of his life to catch up with just the people we've killed and tortured and destroyed in Iraq alone.
That is probably one of the most uninformed remarks I've ever read on this board, and it should be kept for posterity. Why don't you check out your hero Pootie's history in a little country called Georgia? Or were you too busy fretting over John Edwards' love child and watching the Olympics, to notice his behavior right next door to his joint? And ask the Chechens how they feel about your Peacemaking Pootie Pal, too, while you're on about it!
As for al-Assad, the people fighting against him, many of them, have Syrian passports because they were born in Syria, making them...shock...Syrians. A lot of them are his own former Army personnel. Your imagined idea that the "opposition" is a unified group of "Al Qaeda terrorists" is just so astoundingly wrong, like so many other comments you make on this topic.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Cluster Bombs to Saudi Arabia'. Cluster Bombs are banned weapons. Why are we selling them to the Saudis? Some people think these weapons are being laundered through the Saudis to these so-called 'rebels' we seem to be finding in all these ME countries.
So many Syrians who started out having issues with Assad, and rightfully so, have stated now that they will defend their country, and even Assad, from the proxy army of outsiders who were sent in and have been slaughtering innocent civilians over the past two years.
The 'opposition' is mostly made up of 'proxy armies' who are not Syrians. Many of them 'extremists'. And this is part of the reason why Britain's Parliament chose to stay out of any military strike that would in any way benefit them. Cameron just couldn't reassure them that he 'would make sure only the 'good guys' would get the weapons the West is sending in there'.
It is a crime for those who funded and armed these killers who are now responsible for so many unnecessary deaths.
And just some advice. You should drop that old 'your hero' nonsense. It wasn't smart long ago when it first made its online appearance,, but now it's just like an old, worn, out of date hairdo . Like from the '50s or something.
I have no illusions about any politician, here or anywhere else. Pointing out facts is disturbing to some, I know. Sorry about that.
MADem
(135,425 posts)"facts." The deal with SA has been signed but it hasn't been executed. In fact, the weapons haven't even been built yet. Also, neither SA nor USA are signatory to the treaty. Should they be? Sure, I'd go along with that--but that has nothing to do with what has already happened in Syria. Nothing at all.
SA hasn't yet used the weapons they haven't gotten yet that haven't yet been manufactured by Textron on children sleeping in their beds. If I had to guess, I'd be pretty sure they're not for use on kids--they're for use on border incursion efforts from the south. Are they a nice weapon? Hell no--but I don't expect they'll be deployed in urban, civilian environments, either.
Nice attempt at conflation, though. I don't buy Waaaaaah--look over there! as an argument, so you should stop shopping it.
Also, you plainly don't appreciate that many of the opposing militias are not foreign, they are groupings of villagers or regional actors who are only interested in defending
their OWN shit. They have no desire to join in a larger grouping to fight al-Assad in an organized way. Keep inventing stuff, though, if you'd like. You also don't understand that most people fighting al-Assad and doing coordinated attacks are SYRIANS; just because there are some actors from outside Syria (and many of these are exiles come home) does not mean that the bulk of the fighters are Syrians, to include Syrian Kurds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_opposition
Just because a few assholes from the West are talking to few actors who have fighters from outside the nation in their midst, does not mean that all opposition organizations are populated in that fashion.
Thanks for your advice, but since you've not gotten anything right thus far, I think I will give it a miss. And I can't help but notice how you glossed over the fact that the Shirtless Wonder (with no disernable "hairdo"
did, indeed, invade a sovereign nation--that would be Georgia--without asking permission of anyone, least of all the UN, first.
But it's "OK" when he--hero or no (how they start to distance themselves as the truth about the bear rider starts to come to the fore...!)---does it, hmmmm?
Sugarcoated
(7,724 posts)in cold blood...
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I'd love to see proof of that. Oh wait you can't provide it.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)beings over the past decade? Based on LIES? I live here in the US. I know that we have murdered over one million human beings. Based on LIES!
In our name!! I want accountability for that. How about you?
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)But good job on changing to topic. You are great at that.
Direct quote:
"I can tell you without a doubt, that the US is viewed as the number threat to world peace.
We are killing people every day. Name another country over the past decade that has killed so many innocent people?"
You made a direct accusation that the US has killed (or is responsible for killing) more people over the last decade than any other country.
Again I ask for proof. I won't hold my breath.
avebury
(10,952 posts)to Syria as well.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415081/Britain-sent-poison-chemicals-Assad-Proof-UK-delivered-Sarin-agent-Syrian-regime.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-uk-government-let-british-company-export-nerve-gas-chemicals-to-syria-8793642.html
People just need to admit that there is enough hypocrisy to go around for everyone. Both the USSR/Russia and the US have done more than their fair share in meddling with other countries around the world. I get irritated with the cheerleaders that refuse to acknowledge that our own country has committed the good, the bad, and the ugly. The world is not black and white. Russia is not all black nor is the the US all white. I have traveled a lot overseas, as have several of my co-workers who were originally from other countries before coming to the US. Some of my co-workers, when overseas, will not admit publicly to being American citizens because of the reaction to the US that they are observing overseas. I love to talk world politics when I am traveling and love to hear what other people think of the US. I was in Hawaii of all places one time, having dinner before a show on Maui. My table mates happened to all be Canadians. Once they found out I was American all they wanted to talk about was what was going on in the US at that time because what we do does impact their country. I was in the UK one time on a small group day tour. There was a New Zealand family on the same tour. We were all talking and the Mother piped up about how everyone hates New Zealanders. I piped up, not as much as the hate the Americans. They actually hung Bush Jr in effigy in Trafalgar Square the day before I flew over. There was a joke going around: What is the difference between the Americans and Al Qeida? Americans bomb their allies. (We has just accidentally bombed some British soldiers). I also heard some of the Brits referring to Blair as Bush's poodle.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)Let's be upfront what we're talking about here. My municipality puts those in my drinking water and I support it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)The end use of an ingredient isn't always apparent. The same ingredient used by al-Assad to kill people in their beds can also be used to fluoridate water.
I don't know any US leader or anyone, for that matter, who "approves" of gassing children as a matter of policy.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And if he had the money and his country had the power? Of course he'd be trying for hegemony.
Remember the old USSR? The Russians simply can't afford it all right now.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Russia are really, really bad guys and we should be even worse??
I think that we should try to be the 'good guys' we claim to be and use the power we have to STOP the killing of human beings, rather than become the largest killing machine in the history of the world.
If Russia or China were to do what WE HAVE DONE, what would you be saying about that?
There is so much dishonesty in the any discussion about these wars which have SOLVED NOTHING other make a few Defense Contractors very, very wealthy that it is no wonder nothing changes.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Putin doesn't bomb anybody.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)responding to was what was actually said. That neither Russia nor China are slaughtering people in the MIDDLE EAST. In fact both refused to join in those foreign adventures.
We, otoh, have killed over one million human beings and while some here in the US appear to be able to ignore these horrible tragedies, the rest of the world can see the bodies, the tortured, the handing over of control of the resources of those countries to Global Oil Cartels.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Putin isn't bombing the ME, so by implication he's better than the US.
MADem
(135,425 posts)People forget that Pootie INVADED Georgia while everyone was watching the Olympics and fretting over John Edwards' love child....
Stolen off "the internet" but funny:
go west young man
(4,856 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Under Art. 2(4) of the UN Charter and the parallel customary law, the military operations of
the Russian army as described in Chapter 5 “Military Events of 2008”130 in the territory of
Georgia (including South Ossetia and Abkhazia and elsewhere in Georgia) in August 2008
constituted a violation of the fundamental international legal prohibition of the use of force.
....Russian military activities against the Georgian military forces were not justified as collective
self-defence under international law.
.....Moreover, Russia has consistently and persistently objected to the justification of NATO’s
Kosovo intervention as a humanitarian intervention. It is therefore estopped from invoking
this very justification for its own intervention. And as a directly neighbouring state, Russia
has geostrategic interests in South Ossetia. In such a constellation with dominant geostrategic
considerations, humanitarian interventions are not permitted.197
Even some proponents of a right to humanitarian intervention admit that one condition of the
legality of such an intervention would be a collective action, based on deliberations among a
group of states, such as within NATO.198 A unilateral intervention decided upon by one single
state would not meet this procedural criterion of legality.
To conclude, the Russian use of force cannot be justified as a humanitarian intervention.
....The use of force by Abkhazia was not justified under international law and was thus illegal.
The same applies to the Russian support for Abkhaz use of force.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Russia was protecting the breakaway republics since the breakup of the Soviet Union in 91'. When Georgia began the shelling, Russia responded with force. The amount of force expended was considered over the top but considering things, Russia used restraint. They could have leveled Georgia all the way to the capitol if they desired to. Your parsing the report for your own ends when your own post disingenuiously states that Russia invaded Georgia. If an invasion means sitting on the border protecting a breakaway republic that wants your help for over a decade thereby keeping peace and then striking an attacking force of that breakaway republic then Russia needs to hone their "invasion" skills. They obviously don't know what they're doing.
Unlike you I won't parse. Here's what the report concluded.
The report also stated that "the use of force by Georgia against Russian peacekeeping forces in Tskhinvali in the night of 7/8 August 2008 would be contrary to international law". The report said that "if the Russian peacekeepers were attacked," then "the immediate [Russian] reaction in defense of Russian peacekeepers" would be justified, as "Russia had the right to defend its peacekeepers, using military means proportionate to the attack" (the report did not have facts to substantiate the claimed attack on the peacekeepers, but found it "likely" that Russian PKF casualties occurred). The later, second, part of Russian actions, is characterised as "the invasion of Georgia by Russian armed forces reaching far beyond the administrative boundary of South Ossetia", and is considered to be "beyond the reasonable limits of defence".
The Report found that neither side's actions amounted to genocide. It denied Georgia's rationale of starting the war as an act in self-defence against Russian aggression. The Report further claimed that Russian citizenship, conferred to the vast part of Abkhaz and Ossetians may not be considered legally binding under international law. As a result, the interests of these people may not be used as a reason for starting military actions, in defense of Russian citizens living abroad. Acting in defense of Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia is, however, justified under the international law.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)I've traveled extensively, and there is no grand view of the US or any other nation, or any other issue.
There are many opinions, and they spread far and wide all across the world.
Please don't pretend otherwise. That's inhuman.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and in a negative fashion. It doesn't necessarily mean they despise American citizens (more so the American government). However, by staying silent they are doing it in our name and as a result we are lumped in. That is the cold hard truth.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Can anyone stay on topic here?
newfie11
(8,159 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)The OP's monolithic assertions are just not true.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)they feel so surely the rest of the world agrees with them,facts be damned.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Exposed only to a lazy press that provides infotainment and failed school systems, it's no wonder why they can't cope with criticism.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)mia
(8,360 posts)in an attempt to hide the fact that he is jealous of "American exceptionalism".
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)when they view Putin as the 'rational voice' on these ME wars we are constantly involved in.
It is the US who is constantly bombing, droning and torturing people in the ME. It really is a shame that we have we have conceded the moral authority on right and wrong to someone like Putin. But sadly, we have.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and properly should, but not the exceptionalism line. That is so true, as to how the US is seen abroad it is embarrassing.
One of the lines that could, and quite frankly have yet to see our chattering classes do, but some of us did here, and I did at the East County Mag, is that while he went on as to how avoiding the Security Council was a violation of the current world order (which it is), he forgot to mention the times the USSR (Kabul, Christmas day 1979), or the Russian Federation (South Ossetia 2008) has done that as well.
I was like... you are kidding me.
The rest of the essay was a fascinating piece, remarkable indeed since it ran on a US Paper. the paper of record. was a good solid read on European history over the last 60 years. For god sakes, he even tried, (but Americans missed it,) to stroke our ego. See the UN was your idea guys, really, and the Security Council it's your baby and remember when we fought together?
Of course his worries about a rising Muslim terrorist group we share with them. Why in the end we might keep the devil we know... both DC and Moscow, just never admit it.
But I think intellectual curiosity is a requirement to get it. After all the essay was written at an advanced college level. Not even Krugman tries that, since we know readers in the US are not well read. For that matter are not well informed. Yes, reporters are told to write at 6th grade level or bellow, deal with it for those of you who cannot believe it. And editorials are rarely written at a higher level. Abroad, and the OP knows this, editorials are written at college level, at times even higher. And they are directed at the chattering classes. Here, not so much. This one was.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Thank God I got my masters or I might not be able to make it through with all brain cells intact.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)I live outside the U.S., and nobody I know even care one bit about the drivel you wrote.
So, back up your claim with substantial links, please.
Thank you.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)This is that point in the evening, ladies and gentlemen, when someone asks for the DREADED facts that back-up the assertions made in a hyperbolic, totally off-the-wall OP.
Tension mounts as the author of the OP scrambles ...
MichaelKelley
(55 posts)I think we should try to help other countries in need instead of attacking them and killing some more innocent people there as we all knows that many innocent people also will be killed and we need to think, do we need to make this world a fairer place or something else?
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I guess it is hard to imagine a world where we are not bombing at all and instead are dong far more and much better aid work domestically and around the world. Doing more instead of bombing, as opposed to doing some while also bombing.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)The one place I haven't been to is the middle east, so I can't speak for it.
Everywhere else?
I've engaged people in political discussions and I find most are positive about America.
Do we have problems? Of course.
Are we perfect? Not even close.
But we are THE country that the rest of the world looks up to.
Side with the asshole, full of shit, hypocritical Putin if you want.
I support my President and what he said is perfectly right and acceptable.
dschmott
(44 posts)There is a serious tragedy going on in Syria with a mountain pile of human suffering. And and some act like the world should just watch it happen and focus on the numerous U.S. shortcomings. America is smaller and more defective if we follow the world and do nothing as many on this site now seem to advocate.
Its also true this is a complicated situation with no clear and easy solution. I am grateful that we have a President with the capability to perceive this and the will to act if necessary.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)I also have attended school abroad. I can safely say that American education system has serious fundamental faults and a lot of the critical thinking skills young kids lack is not their fault. The American system has failed them and the U.S. media putting the Kardashians up as role models doesn't help. So, when confronted with a scathing, but real critique most are unable to cope. American exceptionalism has morphed into a idea instead of true substance as we longer are all that great. For a supposed super power we are going the wrong way when it comes to green energy, infrastructure, education, and health care.
For example, Canadians are puzzeled why the U.S. does not take the easiest route for example by expanding Medicare for all and ending the shenanigans. But that requires a populace that has that educational base to make that stand for example. My family in Canada when I was visiting always asked me why is Fox News so rah rah U.S.A. or why is there so many join the marines commercials on American programming. My retort is that it is deeply ingrained in American culture for a segment of society, and unfortunately it is growing. It will take time to undo this damage.
treestar
(82,383 posts)In fact I overheard on a tour bus someone saying how great the US was to travel in! The US even attracts tourists.
harun
(11,348 posts)Being the country that the rest of the world looks up to does not preclude the fact that what is referred to as this attitude of "American Exceptionalism" is not a good thing.
It is like saying the successes of Tiger Woods are what all golfers are aspiring to, so all his indiscretions should be ignored or forgiven.
Yes Tiger Woods had golfing success, but his personal life and infidelities was reprehensible.
We are talking here about the infidelities, not the success's of the USA.
NuttyFluffers
(6,811 posts)my experiences are very different.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Want proof of that? Watch him walk.
When he walks, one arm swings and one arm doesn't.
Think about it.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)By the way, all of us have had our opinions taught to us in some measure. You should watch video/read Sam Harris discussion of "free will".
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/books/review/free-will-by-sam-harris.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)When Barack Obama was a freshman in high school Putin joined the KGB and started learning to pull fingernails and kill men with nothing more than a pine needle and pencil eraser. By the time Barack Obama graduated high school Putin had been in the KGB for four years. Think he wasn't indoctrinated (brainwashed) by then?
What is it you want me to learn about "free will" by watching someone else's discussion of it?
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
- The rest continue to snooze.....
K&R
malaise
(268,997 posts)Correct is right 
Eddie Haskell
(1,628 posts)hopeless.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I see the US's faults where they are, but still believe we are one of the greatest nations in the world. I've visited a half dozen countries and lived in two. At the beginning of next year I will have lived in Korea for 10 years. I've seen a lot. I was here for the brutal protests in 2004 against the war in Iraq. The protest against beef imports (actually that happened a couple of times). While I never agreed with the war in Iraq, I never believed that made us less of a nation. When I complete moron like Bush gets in office and apathy is at its peak that is when the trouble starts.
While we proposed bombing Syria, I said time and time again that I believed we wouldn't and that it was a strategy to pressure Syria and Russia. Remember it is Russia that has blocked UN resolutions time and time again on Syria, North Korea, and many other causes. If you think Putin's little op-ed erases those, you are wrong. You act as if we are the only arrogant nation in the world. HA! Putin has proved that is not true.
There are plenty of Americans who live here in Korea that work to raise the profile of the problems in North Korea and do all they can to help bring North Korean refugees to South Korea. They then help with teaching them and adapting to life here. Do you really see the Russians doing this? What about the Chinese? Same deal, different country.
So to sum up, yes I believe in American exceptionalism and I believe in our nation. Yes, we make mistakes. So do other countries.
Ps-Never underestimate the number of expatriates on this board. There are quite a few of us.
great white snark
(2,646 posts)Outside the bubble we are well respected and even admired. It's a shame that America's good points can't even be brought up here without the hate America first crowd yelling "exceptionalism!" and "rah rah rah!"
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)Tricorner hats! Down with evil King George of England.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)the U.S. isn't great anymore at anything really compared to other nations of the world (exception being military). Yes the U.S. in the past made great contributions to the world. For example, when the Soviet Union satellites fell one by one they had to rebuild their societies from the ground up as self governing entitites. The used the U.S. model of federal government, state government, county government, and city/local government. By decentralizing power somewhat and making it more pliable for certain location given their unique needs of each region or city this is a model used all over the world now.
RC
(25,592 posts)Ya, sure, ya betcha there Charley. We're respected like the neighborhood bully. And the feedback one gets, depends on how vulnerable one is to being droned, or having the CIA equipping the local terrorists.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)You know, the countries who traffic the bombs that are used to kill Israelis.
I am happy with *my* heroes, thank you very much.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I learned when I traveled abroad during that period that when I met people, I had to quickly get out "I'm an American but I was against the Iraq war since before it started and protested against it!!!!"...
... and then everything was fine, better than fine, but you needed to get that out quickly.
It has been completely different since then. The polls show it. Obama is currently the worlds most respected leader and has been since before he was elected. His average approval around the globe is around 40%.
Putin's approval level is in the teens. No one trusts Putin. When you are in the teens, it doesn't matter much what you do, no one believes it is for the right reason. It's like Palin or Bachmann being against the war here. That's great, but no one is going to say they are better than Obama for that.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and they all have brains of their own with their own personal opinion.
Vladimir Putin speaks for Vladimir Putin.
ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
.
.
USA has dropped more bombs on more countries than the rest of the world combined.
USA has interfered with internal politics of many countries.
If there is ONE nation that is most despised/feared by other countries;
Guess who?
USA.
CC
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Amonester
(11,541 posts)
I felt like it was DisgustinUnderground but putinUnderground is cracking me up!
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)PantiesAllInATwistUnderground
Cleita
(75,480 posts)most had a limited view of the rest of the world that was very provincial. I understood back then why the ugly American emerged. Today, people are well traveled but they still have the same view. I'm rather mystified, but today maybe I'll blame it on a poor education. It's all I got.
Daniel537
(1,560 posts)I would challenge you to find me just one person on Earth, regardless of their opinion of our foreign policy, who would prefer to live in Vlady's Russia as opposed to the US. Don't worry, i'll wait.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)People abroad don't want either
I understand the confusion though. . USA, USA, USA!!!!!!!
Daniel537
(1,560 posts)applying for US visas is just doing it for fun. No real interest in coming here, i'm sure.
ocpagu
(1,954 posts)I can't speak for Africa or Asia, but in Latin America people that see the US as a role model tend to be right-wingers or brainwashed/uninformed folks.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)sure the millions of Latin Americans who have immigrated to the U.S. aren't poor brainwashed soles,the odds are they knew others who immigrated or are capable of weighing the pros and cons based on facts all by themselves just like the rest of us.
That fact that they choose to stay disproves your condescending point.
ocpagu
(1,954 posts)I wasn't actually talking about the people who have immigrated, but people who "see the US as a role model". It's not so black-or-white, of course, but it can be argued that most Latin Americans who see the United States as a model are either right-wingers or people lacking unbiased information. The Latin American elites idolize Miami. Latin American left-wingers tend to be more far more critical on the US.
Generally, immigrants are too worried in trying to find a way of living to be worried about ideologies or politics before deciding to travel to another country.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)enacted by the powerful with help from the US.
This person should go to rural areas or ciudades perdidas and ask people about the TLC, the spanish acronym for NAFTA. The gringo, the gabacho, is not liked that much.
ocpagu
(1,954 posts)Here in Brazil we call them "the hillbilly elite". They are hardcore supporters of American Exceptionalism.
It's not difficult to notice them. They are generally delighted to take pictures in a rat-infested subway station in New York while they've never used the public transport system in Brazil. They go to US shopping malls three, four times a month to buy clothes that they could buy for cheaper prices in their own towns. They like to mix English words while they talk in Portuguese or even fake a foreign accent. And, of course, they would kill for an apartment in Miami Beach. They are proud to say they hate their native culture because they don't want to be associated with masses to satisfy their need of feeling superior.
I'd have no problem with these folks moving from Brazil.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)they go to the store and buy Folgers cause you know IT IS AMERICAN!
In the meantime if I can get Mexican Highland Chiapas coffee in the states...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Economic matters are different than admiration. I am sorry you are confused.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Irish Americans originally came here for economic reasons too,it doesn't mean they feel any more less connected to this country than any one else. If we heard conservatives making points like this,we would be calling them racists.
War Horse
(931 posts)And I would venture to say most of Western Europe. Warts and all. And sure, there are 'warts'.
Hardly any of us get why on Earth he got the Nobel Peace Price, but that's another matter... I get that folks are disappointed when it comes to internal U.S. issues. From the outside looking in he seems like much more of a centrist than a leftist, but certainly not like a right-winger (in a U.S. context), like he's portrayed as by some here. Just my 0.2 NOK
It's kind of worrying to me, as a Norwegian, living in a small country with about 5 mill. people which shares a border with Russia that Putin, of all people, is somehow viewed as a 'voice of sanity' within segments of both the left and right in the U.S.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)...that they love Americans but hate the US government. We had one guy in Brazil come running up to us to talk and that's exactly what he said. "I just love Americans but I hate your government". Bush was president at the time so I said, "I hate our government too, so we are in agreement!" A lot of people we have met don't really follow American politics abroad, they are too tied up in their own lives to be bothered with it.
The only place we had any problem because we were American was in Panama and that was eating at Subway, of all places. A girl was livid at our presence, but that is understandable as she probably had family killed when Bush attacked. We even walked around the area of Panama City that was bombed had no problems. People looked at us like we were crazy, but we had no problems.
I have had people try to intimidate us in third world countries, but that is more because we were gringos (whom they assume are rich) than anything else. For the most part, people are curious and want to talk to you and ask questions. I remember one guy in Costa Rica asking us if it was Winter in the US (it was August). August was considered 'Winter' there because that's the rainy season in the capital and the weather was cooler (low 70s).
gopiscrap
(23,760 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)He knows! He's right there in exceptional central, doing....well....he's President!