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niyad

(113,284 posts)
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 10:42 PM Sep 2013

belatedly, ANOTHER 11 september event--the mormon mountain meadow massacre

(with everything going on in this state this week, had nearly forgotten this 11 september event)

Mountain Meadows massacre
Location: Mountain Meadows, Utah Territory, United States
Date: September 7–11, 1857
Fatalities: 100–140 members of the Baker–Fancher wagon train
Injuries: Around 17
Perpetrators: Utah Territorial Militia (Iron County district), Paiute Native American auxiliaries
Weapons: Guns, Bowie knives



The Mountain Meadows massacre was a series of attacks on the Baker–Fancher emigrant wagon train at Mountain Meadows in southern Utah. The attacks culminated on September 11, 1857, with the mass slaughter of most in the emigrant party by members of the Utah Territorial Militia from the Iron County district, together with some Paiute Native Americans.

The wagon train—composed almost entirely of families from Arkansas—was bound for California on a route that passed through the Utah Territory during a turbulent time period, later known as the Utah War. After arriving in Salt Lake City, the Baker–Fancher party made their way south, eventually stopping to rest at Mountain Meadows. While the emigrants were camped at the meadow, nearby militia leaders, including Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, made plans to attack the wagon train.

The militia, officially called the Nauvoo Legion, was composed of Utah's Mormon settlers (members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or LDS Church). Intending to give the appearance of Native American aggression, their plan was to arm some Southern Paiute Native Americans and persuade them to join with a larger party of their own militiamen—disguised as Native Americans—in an attack. During the militia's first assault on the wagon train, the emigrants fought back and a five-day siege ensued. Eventually fear spread among the militia's leaders that some emigrants had caught sight of white men, and had likely discovered the identity of their attackers. As a result militia commander William H. Dame ordered his forces to kill the emigrants.

By this time the emigrants were running low on water and provisions, and allowed some approaching members of the militia—who carried a white flag—to enter their camp. The militia members assured the emigrants their protection and escorted them from the hasty fortification. After walking a distance from the camp, the militiamen, with the help of auxiliary forces hiding nearby, attacked the emigrants. Intending to leave no witnesses and to prevent reprisals to complicate the Utah War, the perpetrators killed all the adults and older children (totaling about 120 men, women, and children). Seventeen children, all younger than seven, were spared.

Following the massacre, the perpetrators hastily buried the victims, leaving the bodies vulnerable to wild animals and the climate. Local families took in the surviving children, and many of the victims' possessions were auctioned off. Investigations, temporarily interrupted by the American Civil War, resulted in nine indictments during 1874. Of the men indicted, only John D. Lee was tried in a court of law. After two trials in the Utah Territory, Lee was convicted by a jury, sentenced to death, and executed.

Today historians attribute the massacre to a combination of factors, including war hysteria about possible invasion of Mormon territory, and hyperbolic Mormon teachings against outsiders which were part of the excesses of the Mormon Reformation period. Scholars debate whether senior Mormon leadership, including Brigham Young, directly instigated the massacre or if responsibility lay with the local leaders in southern Utah.

. . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

37 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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belatedly, ANOTHER 11 september event--the mormon mountain meadow massacre (Original Post) niyad Sep 2013 OP
The Danites, led by my g-g-g-grandfather, probably actually did it. kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #1
did you see the movie about the massacre, called "september dawn"? I tried watching it, but niyad Sep 2013 #3
Yes, I did. It's especially chilling, knowing what I know. kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #7
not exactly the sort of ancestor of whom one is proud. the small amount of research I have done niyad Sep 2013 #10
Actually, he was a very interesting person when not murdering for the church. kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #11
Very interesting BrotherIvan Sep 2013 #13
He's famous. He published his autobiography in the 1800s. kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #17
Thanks for the link BrotherIvan Sep 2013 #18
He was Chief of the Danites, and answered only to Joe Smith and Brigham Young. kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #29
a most interesting person indeed. and yes, one does wonder-- he really was brave then. niyad Sep 2013 #14
have you heard about this new show? niyad Sep 2013 #16
Nobody ever likes to talk about the excess males that don't fit into this system. kestrel91316 Sep 2013 #28
From the web page, "Your Heroes Are Not Our Heroes." www.brotherhooddays.com mikekohr Sep 2013 #2
thank you for this excellent information niyad Sep 2013 #4
This event was pointed out to my RW friends when Romney was running for president Thinkingabout Sep 2013 #5
I got a lot of flack when I pointed this event out to the reichwingnutjobs here. niyad Sep 2013 #6
Actually I did not get a good response either but it gave Romney a knock. Thinkingabout Sep 2013 #8
I occasionally encounter a woman who still wears an rmoney/ryan button on her jacket. she lives niyad Sep 2013 #9
Would you think she might be a part of the 47%? Thinkingabout Sep 2013 #12
. . . niyad Sep 2013 #15
This is certainly well worth discussing, less anybody accidentally trust any of those hated Mormons el_bryanto Sep 2013 #19
Every faith has to confront the ugliness of its past. Lutherans have to deal geek tragedy Sep 2013 #21
Yep - and this is the perfect place to do it. el_bryanto Sep 2013 #23
I never miss an opportunity to bash Martin Luther, as you can read. geek tragedy Sep 2013 #24
Why not? I mean the people who committed the Mountain Meadows Massacre had a set of beliefs el_bryanto Sep 2013 #25
Nationalism, tribalism, ethnocentrism, and religious fanaticism are hardly geek tragedy Sep 2013 #26
Yes, I am descended from Baptists who twisted their religion csziggy Sep 2013 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author CountAllVotes Sep 2013 #31
how sad CountAllVotes Sep 2013 #27
actually, it is well worth discussing, for many reasons. you will notice that this thread was about niyad Sep 2013 #32
What aspects of it are well worth discussing and applicable in our modern era? nt el_bryanto Sep 2013 #34
~~30~~ niyad Sep 2013 #36
Well if that's the point - that I should abandon Mormonism - and that's why this issue needs to be el_bryanto Sep 2013 #37
Brigham Young was the Yasser Arafat of American history. nt geek tragedy Sep 2013 #20
i thought there was a good account of this in "Under the Banner of Heaven" Scout Sep 2013 #22
thank you. couldn't think of the name of the book. niyad Sep 2013 #33
. . . niyad Sep 2013 #35

niyad

(113,284 posts)
3. did you see the movie about the massacre, called "september dawn"? I tried watching it, but
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 10:54 PM
Sep 2013

was too upsetting.

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
7. Yes, I did. It's especially chilling, knowing what I know.
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:14 PM
Sep 2013

My g-g-g-grandfather was a coldblooded murderer for the early Mormon church. And when Brigham gave him an order, it was as good as done.

niyad

(113,284 posts)
10. not exactly the sort of ancestor of whom one is proud. the small amount of research I have done
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:21 PM
Sep 2013

on this cult is chilling, to say the least.

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
11. Actually, he was a very interesting person when not murdering for the church.
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:34 PM
Sep 2013

Lawman, self-taught attorney, legislator, founded and ran the Utah version of the pony express, miner, rancher, and the list goes on. To his credit, he eventually turned against the church in a big way but paid a heavy price for it.

He tried to help the feds prosecute Brigham Young and the other high mucky mucks for multiple murder (since they were the ones issuing the orders), but that fell through.

He was excommunicated, and his 9 plural wives left him. My family descends from the FIRST wife. They stayed loyal to him through it all. My g-g-grandfather, his son-in-law, was excommunicated along with him. We're very proud that they told the church to go pound sand eventually.

I have no idea how he managed to escape the church's revenge.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
13. Very interesting
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:23 AM
Sep 2013

How did you find out so much about your family history? Was it through journals? I have been studying western pioneer history for some time and became engrossed in Mormon history because they settled such a good part of the west. A book by John Lee's wife was very interesting and many of the journals that were kept told fascinating stories. It sounds like you know quite a bit about early Mormonism yourself. I'm not religious, but study religious anthropology as a sort of hobby.

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
17. He's famous. He published his autobiography in the 1800s.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 11:41 AM
Sep 2013

And my grandfather heard all the stories from his grandmother, who was his daughter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Bill_Hickman

The Mormon side of the family tries to deny he was Joe Smith's and Brigham Young's chief enforcer. We know better.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
18. Thanks for the link
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 12:02 PM
Sep 2013

I'm going to try to find his autobiography. I have come across him in my readings because of the legends of the Danites and Porter Rockwell. That period of history was so bloody and there was so much intrigue. Because of all the denials, it's hard to see the picture clearly. What a weird and curious history the Mormons have.

niyad

(113,284 posts)
16. have you heard about this new show?
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 09:36 AM
Sep 2013

Lifestyle September 16, 2013
A new Utah polygamous family on reality TV

Photo: AP Brady Williams poses with his wives, from left to right, Paulie, Robyn, Rosemary, Nonie, and Rhonda, outside of their home in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more

Photo: APBrady Williams five wife's, from left to right, Robyn, Nonie, Rhonda, Rosemary and Paulie, pose for a photograph outside of their home in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family.The family says their plural lifestyle is rooted in love and commitment rather than religion. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more

Photo: APBrady Williams poses with his wives, from left to right, Paulie, Robyn, Rosemary, Nonie, and Rhonda, outside of their home in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more

Photo: APBrady Williams wives, from left to right, Robyn, Paulie, and Rosemary, look on during an interview at their home in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more

Photo: APBrady Williams talks while his wives, from left to right, Robyn, Paulie, Rosemary, Nonie, and Rhonda, look on during an interview at their home in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more
Brady Williams

Photo: APBrady Williams gestures during an interview at his home in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more

Photo: APN in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more

Photo: APBrady Williams poses with his wives, from left to right, Robyn and Rosemary, outside of their home in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more

Photo: APBrady Williams five wife's, from left to right, Robyn, Nonie, Rhonda, Rosemary and Paulie, pose for a photograph outside of their home in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family.The family says their plural lifestyle is rooted in love and commitment rather than religion. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more

Photo: APBrady Williams poses with his wives, from left to right, Paulie, Robyn, Rosemary, Nonie, and Rhonda, outside of their home in a polygamous community outside Salt Lake City. Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion. The latest polygamous family from Utah to open its lives to America via reality TV is a tried and true plural family. The kids range from age 2 to 20, and five are named Brady. A one-hour special called "My Five Wives" is set to air Sunday on TLC offering a glimpse into the family’s life.
Show more
More Photos (1 of 7)

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Brady Williams has five wives, 24 children but no organized religion.

The newest polygamous family from Utah on reality TV considers itself progressive and independent. Williams and his wives slowly withdrew from the fundamentalist Mormon church in their rural community outside of Salt Lake City during the mid-2000s after re-evaluating their core beliefs.
. . .

http://www.mail.com/entertainment/lifestyle/2335514-utah-polygamous-family-reality-tv.html#.7518-stage-hero1-2
 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
28. Nobody ever likes to talk about the excess males that don't fit into this system.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 01:22 PM
Sep 2013

That's what wars are for, I suppose.

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
2. From the web page, "Your Heroes Are Not Our Heroes." www.brotherhooddays.com
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 10:52 PM
Sep 2013

BRIGHAM YOUNG (apostle in the Latter Day Saint movement. Young was the president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) from 1847 until his death, the founder of Salt Lake City and the first governor of the Utah Territory, United States. Brigham Young University was named in his honor):

In 1857 Brigham Young ordered an armed force of Mormon men under the command of Mormon elder John D. Lee to, "...waylay our enemies, attack them from ambush, stampede their animals , take their supply trains.... to waste away our enemies." Elder Lee followed Young's order in his attack on a wagon train in the infamous Mountain Meadows massacre. The attack was deliberately fashioned to blame the attack on Paiute Indians, which helped inflame public attitudes against the First People of Utah.

Twenty years later the truth of the conspiracy was brought to light. It was widely reported at the time, that Brigham Young believed that sacrificing Lee would pave the way for Utah's admittance as a state to the United States. Lee was taken to the site of the Mountain Massacre and made to sit on his coffin. As the firing squad drew aim Lee cried out, "Center on my heart boys. Don't mangle my body." 55).

On the 150th anniversary of the slaughter, in September of 2007, Mormon Apostle, Henry B. Eyring, issued an official expression of "regret" to the Paiute People for the actions of the church that orchestrated the murders and then conspired to place blame on the tribe for the massacre. 80).

The Mormon faith decrees that American Indians are direct descendants of ancient Israelites. Mormon anthropologist, Thomas Murphy, chairman of the anthropology department at Edmonds Community College in Lynnwood, Washington, conducted a scientific DNA study to determine the validity of this claim, which came up negative. On December 8, 2002, the church started excommunication hearings against Mr. Murphy for his attempts to bring light to the truth. After press coverage embarrassed the church it quietly halted its removal proceedings against Mr. Murphy 57).
additional link: http://articles.latimes.com/2006/feb/16/local/me-mormon16 88).




Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
5. This event was pointed out to my RW friends when Romney was running for president
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 10:57 PM
Sep 2013

To show the closeness of the Mormons and muslins, it wasn't appreciated.

niyad

(113,284 posts)
9. I occasionally encounter a woman who still wears an rmoney/ryan button on her jacket. she lives
Sun Sep 15, 2013, 11:19 PM
Sep 2013

in senior housing, and is on food stamps. I consider asking her if she realizes that the election is over, and they lost, and also to ask her if she realizes that people in her situation are NOT the people that the r's care about. then I consider that I would be wasting my energy.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
19. This is certainly well worth discussing, less anybody accidentally trust any of those hated Mormons
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 12:05 PM
Sep 2013

I am a Mormon and I know that we can't be trusted. I'm surprised I'm allowed on this board, what with my continued Mormonism.

Bryant

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
21. Every faith has to confront the ugliness of its past. Lutherans have to deal
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 12:07 PM
Sep 2013

with the fact that their namesake was the ideological father of the Holocaust.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
23. Yep - and this is the perfect place to do it.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 12:10 PM
Sep 2013

I mean this is a current happening story that we should all be aware of. Lest we forget.

Bryant

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
24. I never miss an opportunity to bash Martin Luther, as you can read.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 12:12 PM
Sep 2013

And I was raised Lutheran.

What happened in the past is past, and we shouldn't be defensive about it unless people try to extrapolate it to current times.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
25. Why not? I mean the people who committed the Mountain Meadows Massacre had a set of beliefs
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 12:14 PM
Sep 2013

largely identical to my own; except presumably about massacring people. If those Mormon beliefs pushed them to massacre; who can say what effect they are having on modern Mormons.

Bryant

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
26. Nationalism, tribalism, ethnocentrism, and religious fanaticism are hardly
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 12:22 PM
Sep 2013

endemic to Mormonism, quite the contrary.

csziggy

(34,136 posts)
30. Yes, I am descended from Baptists who twisted their religion
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 01:41 PM
Sep 2013

To justify slavery. One of my ancestors was involved with the people who began the Alabama Baptist Convention which led to the establishment of the Southern Baptist Convention - a group well known for teaching condemnation of anything and anyone who doesn't believe exactly they way they do.

I do not like or agree with what my ancestors did but I do believe that those acts need to be remembered so we can try to avoid repeating their mistakes.

The more I learn about the history of religion, the less I want to have to do with religion.

Response to csziggy (Reply #30)

CountAllVotes

(20,868 posts)
27. how sad
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 12:39 PM
Sep 2013

I feel sad for you. I know how you feel.

I about left this place because it is so anti-Catholic.

I happen to be Catholic and yes, it is indeed my religion of choice. I'm sorry that others hate me for who I happen to be but that is their problem, not mine.

I suggest you take the same stance. Be proud of who you are and maybe others can learn a few things from you and what your teachings as a Mormon have taught you and helped you with in this life.

Best wishes and yes, I mean that. from an old Catholic that isn't about to jump the shark so to speak.

niyad

(113,284 posts)
32. actually, it is well worth discussing, for many reasons. you will notice that this thread was about
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 07:24 PM
Sep 2013

one of a number of horrific incidents related to the date 11 september. I will point out the date of the sand creek massacre when that comes around, as I do the ludlow massacre, and the triangle fire. incidents that happened on specific dates. that you choose to extrapolate an attack from that is your issue, not mine.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
37. Well if that's the point - that I should abandon Mormonism - and that's why this issue needs to be
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 10:41 AM
Sep 2013

discussed - well, I guess you understand that I'm not really on the same page as you.

Bryant

Scout

(8,624 posts)
22. i thought there was a good account of this in "Under the Banner of Heaven"
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 12:07 PM
Sep 2013

which i found to be an interesting and very informative read about the mormon history.

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