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kiva

(4,373 posts)
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 09:58 PM Sep 2013

Chicken Stock Doesn’t Count as Meat

Swear to Ceiling Cat, I kept checking because I was sure I was reading The Onion.

My hand, grasping a ladle full of steaming amber liquid, froze in mid-air. Cam had rounded the corner of the kitchen in the midst of preparing our apartment for a dinner party, a duster in one hand and fresh tea lights in the other. I wondered what the hell he could be talking about at this late hour: I was making the risotto, of course, and worrying about having the cobbler prepped for dessert, and trying to find a moment to get the counters wiped down, and—oh God, the stock. He was talking about the stock. Vegetarians were at that moment speeding up the express subway track toward our home, and, despite my efforts to craft a menu that would appease them, I had just failed by using chicken stock in the mushroom risotto … or had I?

<snip>

I should probably apologize for this supposedly egregious violation, but for some reason, the words choke in my throat. For starters, the addition of my carefully crafted homemade stock to the risotto was not malicious. In my daily cooking, the ingredient is as basic as kosher salt and freshly ground pepper; I reach for a half-cup of it to thin a sauce or enrich weeknight rice just as I would somnambulistically reach for the AC remote in the middle of a steamy August night. In other words, it was an accident.

But the more I meditate on this issue, the more I think that it is not I who should feel guilty, even for an honest mistake. After all, one version of a saying by none other than famed gastronome Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin tells us that “stock to a cook is like voice to a singer.” Can you really justify taking away my voice? When I have vegetarians over for dinner, I’m already making a sacrifice by forgoing a real entrée in favor of a meatless one. Fairness and common sense would argue that, in return, vegetarians shouldn’t make a big deal about some small amount of a near-invisible (if crucial!) liquid. I’ve compromised my culinary integrity enough already—now it’s your turn: Vegetarians and vegans, chicken stock does not count as meat.


http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2013/09/chicken_stock_vegetarians_need_to_compromise_and_stop_pretending_it_counts.html
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Chicken Stock Doesn’t Count as Meat (Original Post) kiva Sep 2013 OP
I made vegetable stock today pipoman Sep 2013 #1
Technically it's not a stock since it doesn't have bones Retrograde Sep 2013 #10
Wow that is good to know. MuseRider Sep 2013 #15
Mea culpa.. pipoman Sep 2013 #21
Exactly: guests deserve respect Retrograde Sep 2013 #22
I always feel badly pipi_k Sep 2013 #44
You have a very thoughtful family. Nice. virgogal Sep 2013 #82
Mmm, technically, it's a stock whether it has bones or not, kentauros Sep 2013 #62
As a vegetarian, chicken stock does count as meat. RebelOne Sep 2013 #2
This message was self-deleted by its author antiquie Sep 2013 #3
The OP isn't the author of the piece, but you can add your comments to the original article... Turborama Sep 2013 #23
Wow Tien1985 Sep 2013 #4
I'm with you... nt Earth_First Sep 2013 #6
Agreed. Vanje Sep 2013 #11
"not a very imaginative cook." kentauros Sep 2013 #57
The author of the article is a he, kiva Sep 2013 #16
Oops Kiva, you're right! Tien1985 Sep 2013 #32
My favorite oath. kiva Sep 2013 #37
I would have been pissed off if MuseRider Sep 2013 #5
Chicken stock is meat. Agnosticsherbet Sep 2013 #7
Yes on everything. Behind the Aegis Sep 2013 #8
AND it is so fresh when you do MuseRider Sep 2013 #9
I am a big meat eater. Behind the Aegis Sep 2013 #12
Absolutely right. For my late in-laws I'd no sooner serve a cream gravy than I would pork roast Hekate Sep 2013 #20
What if you just let the chicken run around in lukewarm water for an hour snooper2 Sep 2013 #39
This person really doesn't have vegetarian friends nobodyspecial Sep 2013 #13
This article is loathsome for so many reasons. mattclearing Sep 2013 #14
might as well spit in it Precisely Sep 2013 #17
An animal was still slaughtered in the process of producing the stock. Gravitycollapse Sep 2013 #18
Right, and as a vegetarian, I eat eggs and dairy products RebelOne Sep 2013 #86
Sorry I cook for a living this is plain dishonest and wrong Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #19
I have had difficulty trying to recreate the taste of chicken broth avaistheone1 Sep 2013 #27
Better than bouillon no chicken base Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #29
I'll give it a shot. avaistheone1 Sep 2013 #66
You're welcome I hope it works for what you want to do Arcanetrance Sep 2013 #68
I won't eat MSG stock. I'm a 100% organic raw vegan. livingwagenow Sep 2013 #24
Pah. sibelian Sep 2013 #25
But is ketchup a vegetable?... n/t PoliticAverse Sep 2013 #26
Ketchup is closer to Tien1985 Sep 2013 #33
i suppose they figure that peanut butter doesn't count as peanuts unblock Sep 2013 #28
That makes sense to me. It's all about intentions. LuvNewcastle Sep 2013 #31
I don't understand. Le Taz Hot Sep 2013 #30
This is why I don't order soups in restaurants unless it's a vegetarian restaurant or mucifer Sep 2013 #34
Ask a rabbi if it's OK to serve dairy with it. badtoworse Sep 2013 #35
Nice of you to judge. HERVEPA Sep 2013 #52
Of course it counts as meat. MineralMan Sep 2013 #36
That's not cool. HappyMe Sep 2013 #38
What I do is prepare a meal everyone will enjoy, MineralMan Sep 2013 #43
The question is: would the vegan do it for you? frazzled Sep 2013 #48
Yes, some vegans would and do. Tien1985 Sep 2013 #54
I didn't find out about all the restrictions HappyMe Sep 2013 #55
Yeah, I totally get the Tien1985 Sep 2013 #56
I am a vegetarian... bunnies Sep 2013 #58
You are the rare one frazzled Sep 2013 #61
lol bunnies Sep 2013 #67
My beloved stepsister is vegetarian KamaAina Sep 2013 #80
my friend is a vegetarian and she cooks meat for her sons when they come over. dionysus Sep 2013 #89
Why is that the question? MineralMan Sep 2013 #69
I think you've missed the point frazzled Sep 2013 #83
I think you may have replied to the wrong post. MineralMan Sep 2013 #87
As frazzled says in her last paragraph - HappyMe Sep 2013 #49
I have never met a meat eater who didn't also eat other foods. MineralMan Sep 2013 #70
There is a huge difference between HappyMe Sep 2013 #75
There is a difference, yes, but not a huge one. MineralMan Sep 2013 #79
You sir, are a prince. antiquie Sep 2013 #50
Not really. I'm a cook, though, and welcome interesting MineralMan Sep 2013 #72
Drool ~ nt antiquie Sep 2013 #84
Chili Tien1985 Sep 2013 #46
Vegetarianism is often a moral stance el_bryanto Sep 2013 #40
If it comes harvested from an animal in any way, it's not vegan. NuclearDem Sep 2013 #41
It is not vegetarian by any stretch either. RebelOne Sep 2013 #88
It's meat, but I sympathize with this cook frazzled Sep 2013 #42
You're a better person than I. HappyMe Sep 2013 #47
+1000 mainer Sep 2013 #51
Your last sentence really says it all. Sheldon Cooper Sep 2013 #53
What a pompous ass. Gormy Cuss Sep 2013 #45
What a fucking jerk!!! Marrah_G Sep 2013 #59
Ive actually been sick due to a similar "harmless" chicken stock rice. bunnies Sep 2013 #60
Don't worry. HappyMe Sep 2013 #63
The worst part was... bunnies Sep 2013 #71
I'm going to stick with HappyMe Sep 2013 #73
Do you put milk in them totaoes? bunnies Sep 2013 #74
Yes, I do. HappyMe Sep 2013 #76
Your evil knows no bounds, Happy! bunnies Sep 2013 #78
Hey, it's what I do best. HappyMe Sep 2013 #81
omg. bunnies Sep 2013 #90
It's about your guests, not about you bklyncowgirl Sep 2013 #64
Chicken stock is an abomination to vegetarians! MoonRiver Sep 2013 #65
A "real" entree? KamaAina Sep 2013 #77
That struck me, too. MineralMan Sep 2013 #85
 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
1. I made vegetable stock today
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:05 PM
Sep 2013

and would never mislead a diner about ingredients in a dish..I run a restaurant and am not talking about a dinner party, but to pretend there is no other way but with chicken stock shows lack of imagination, imo..

Retrograde

(10,136 posts)
10. Technically it's not a stock since it doesn't have bones
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:58 PM
Sep 2013

but that's what I call mine anyway.

I'm not a vegetarian, and I keep homemade chicken and beef stocks on hand, which I'll usse in an otherwise vegetarian dish. But when I'm cooking for vegetarians I make a vegetable stock or a quick court bouillon instead. If I somehow accidentally used a meat stock, I would let them know - it's just polite.

ETA: I know one Chinese restaurant here that makes its vegetarian dishes with chicken stock, but they put that on the menu.

MuseRider

(34,109 posts)
15. Wow that is good to know.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 11:36 PM
Sep 2013

Around here my favorite Chinese places are very sensitive to vegetarians. I can get anything on the menu made without meat stock or meat. Maybe it is because I live in beef country and they know that they get a lot of business from those who don't want to go the meat route.

You do have to ask.

Could one just call it a broth? I am not much of a cook so I don't know. I call mine stock because that is how I use it.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
21. Mea culpa..
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:03 AM
Sep 2013

I serve a lot of international engineers. Some are strict vegetarians, some don't eat pork, some no beef, some only fish..I am very careful and consider this when planning my menu. I would never conceal what is in anything we serve. Since we scratch cook everything we know exactly what is in every item...I wouldn't disrespect guests in my restaurant or in my home by serving them something I knew violated their eating preferences..

Retrograde

(10,136 posts)
22. Exactly: guests deserve respect
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:21 AM
Sep 2013

I've had traditional Thanksgiving dinners with vegetarian guests: I told them (aside) that the turkey contained meat (duh) as did one dish of stuffing, but knowing they would be there I made sure everything else was vegetarian - including a separate uncontaminated dish of cornbread stuffing. Likewise, when I was doing a traditional Polish Christmas Eve dinner I quietly told a gluten-intolerant guest that one traditional dumpling dish contained wheat - and that it was also traditional to leave some food on one's plate - but that everything else was wheat-free. Sure, it's a little more work for me sometimes, but I want to please my guests. They're my friends, after all.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
44. I always feel badly
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 10:30 AM
Sep 2013

about going to dinner at my oldest stepdaughter's house because she and her hubby put so much work into their meals and they know I don't eat beef, yet they always cook chicken too. I've told them they don't need to do this, as I'm perfectly fine without meat of any kind, but they cook it anyway.

They also make meat and non-meat turkey stuffing.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
62. Mmm, technically, it's a stock whether it has bones or not,
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:40 AM
Sep 2013

at least according to the history of the word "stock" and its uses in the past:

stock (n.2)
"supply for future use" (early 15c.), "sum of money" (mid-15c.), Middle English developments of stock (n.1), but the ultimate sense connection is uncertain. Perhaps the notion is of the "trunk" from which gains are an outgrowth, or obsolete sense of "money-box" (c.1400). Meaning "subscribed capital of a corporation" is from 1610s.

Stock exchange is attested from 1773. In stock "in the possession of a trader" is from 1610s. Meaning "broth made by boiling meat or vegetables" is from 1764. Theatrical use, in reference to a company regularly acting together at a given theater, is attested from 1761. Taking stock "making an inventory" is attested from 1736. As the collective term for the movable property of a farm, it is recorded from 1510s; hence livestock.

RebelOne

(30,947 posts)
2. As a vegetarian, chicken stock does count as meat.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:06 PM
Sep 2013

Whenever I buy canned soups, I always check the ingredients, and if they include chicken stock, I do not buy them.

Response to kiva (Original post)

Tien1985

(920 posts)
4. Wow
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:09 PM
Sep 2013

I'm not a vegetarian, and this is still obnoxious.

A mistake is a mistake, no big deal there. But acting like her vegetarian friends--who she OFFERED to cook for--are imposing on her to cook something within their boundaries is ridiculous. If she doesn't like her "creative" integrity being compromised because she can't figure out non meat centered foods, she could just stop inviting vegetarian friends over for supper.

Vanje

(9,766 posts)
11. Agreed.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 11:04 PM
Sep 2013

and I'm a meat-eating son-of-a-gun.

In adition to being a thoughtless jerk, the author is not a very imaginative cook.

Stock made of LOTS of browned onions with a few other seared vegetables thrown in, is GOOD, rich, and almost tastes "meaty" .

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
57. "not a very imaginative cook."
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:20 AM
Sep 2013

I was just about to post on that part, as it stood out to me in the OP.

A good cook, not to mention a great cook, is imaginative and finds any restriction as a welcome challenge. Good and great cooks love to please their diners. It's not meant to be the other way around, unless the said cook just enjoys being an asshole.

As for "meaty" stocks, mushrooms have at one time been called the fifth taste on our tongues, or that of "meaty." Why not make a good meaty stock out of good mushrooms?

Tien1985

(920 posts)
32. Oops Kiva, you're right!
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 05:50 AM
Sep 2013

Sorry, was tired last night and wasn't being very observant. I think his attitude reminded me so much of woman I know (and have had this argument with) I just thought of her and not overly much about the writer himself.

I did love you're "I swear to ceiling cat" phrase though

MuseRider

(34,109 posts)
5. I would have been pissed off if
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:09 PM
Sep 2013

the person having me to dinner knowing I was a vegetarian put chicken stock in anything and just simply decided by themselves that it did not matter.

I am really easy going about this stuff. I blow off the concerns of others and smile while I eat a crappy little side salad because the meat eaters had to go eat meat. I smile and tell them i am content. If someone purposefully deceived me like that I would most likely give up my relaxed acceptance of eating crappy stuff so other can eat dead animals, even the smell in those places is difficult for me, at least around that person.

Chicken stock most certainly does count.

If this person was so carefully crafting a meal s/he should have spent a little more time and made a wonderful vegetable stock. Even the meat eaters in my family prefer the stock I make to any other.

Even water, plain water, would have been preferable.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
7. Chicken stock is meat.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:39 PM
Sep 2013

This is true in Jewish cooking, which keeps close track of these things.

If it starts with a cluck, it is meat.

From my POV, if you have guests with food issues, as a host it is your duty to make sure their needs are met. This is true with food allergies, where the wrong food can kill. It is food with Vegetarians where their issues are by choice.


Behind the Aegis

(53,956 posts)
8. Yes on everything.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:46 PM
Sep 2013

Using meat stock can change the "kosher" nature of a meal. If I were to feed a vegetarian (I don't know that I could help a vegan without some serious training), I wouldn't use any meat sauce or stock. It isn't that hard to make a vegetable stock.

MuseRider

(34,109 posts)
9. AND it is so fresh when you do
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:55 PM
Sep 2013

that nothing you use it on or in could possibly taste better. When I made the conversion to making my own veggie stock it was amazing. Makes the best gravy too oddly.

Really I just wanted to say

Behind the Aegis

(53,956 posts)
12. I am a big meat eater.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 11:07 PM
Sep 2013

So I like to use meat broth when I flavor food. I have used veggie stock a few times, but it is usually for something specific. Though I do really like working with spices, I am still a newbie cook, so I haven't learned flavor profiles well.

to you too! I hope you are well. I was thinking of you the other day.

Hekate

(90,681 posts)
20. Absolutely right. For my late in-laws I'd no sooner serve a cream gravy than I would pork roast
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:21 AM
Sep 2013

By the same token, vegetarians are safe at my table, as are people with simple allergies. Just let me know -- I may tell you to bring something to share, but I sure won't try to slip something over on you on purpose. I don't think THAT highly of my own cooking.

Vegans are harder. Can't think of anything to serve my son since he went vegan, so I've let it be known I'd really truly like to be invited over to his place. Give me time -- I'll teach myself something, or get him to give me some of his recipes.

True kosher is impossible for me, because my kitchen isn't kosher, but those to whom it would make a difference already know it. But at least I know enough to know what's treif and not to mix milk and meat -- and my beloved MIL and FIL were comfortable and well-fed.

I just don't get it. The author of that article should have started over on that dish using water if he had nothing else -- or at least not told the whole world in what was a most-public kiss-off of his former friends.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
39. What if you just let the chicken run around in lukewarm water for an hour
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 09:49 AM
Sep 2013

The pull the chicken out, and continue making your stock?

Does that count

mattclearing

(10,091 posts)
14. This article is loathsome for so many reasons.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 11:28 PM
Sep 2013

The comments at Slate address most of the reasons.

I've bitten my tongue in these situations, but I'm not going to accept responsibility for someone else's culinary weakness, prejudice, insensitivity, and deceit.

RebelOne

(30,947 posts)
86. Right, and as a vegetarian, I eat eggs and dairy products
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:36 PM
Sep 2013

because the animals are not slaughtered for them.

Arcanetrance

(2,670 posts)
19. Sorry I cook for a living this is plain dishonest and wrong
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:09 AM
Sep 2013

There are ways to make great vegetarian meals. Not wanting to find an alternative to chicken stock is lazy and shows lack of creativity

 

avaistheone1

(14,626 posts)
27. I have had difficulty trying to recreate the taste of chicken broth
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 02:53 AM
Sep 2013

with vegetable stock or broth. It really doesn't cut in recipes that call for chicken stock.

Have you found anything taste-wise that is a good replacement for it?

 

livingwagenow

(373 posts)
24. I won't eat MSG stock. I'm a 100% organic raw vegan.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 02:07 AM
Sep 2013

MSG-laden chicken stock is most certainly not vegan and counts as meat.(derived from chicken meat, bone)

knr

Tien1985

(920 posts)
33. Ketchup is closer to
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 05:55 AM
Sep 2013

Being a vegetable than chicken stock is to being vegetarian.

This is like a reverse MAT question.

unblock

(52,223 posts)
28. i suppose they figure that peanut butter doesn't count as peanuts
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 03:09 AM
Sep 2013

so those allergic to peanuts should just get over it?


whether you're a vegetarian for health reasons, ethical reasons, political reasons, religious reasons, or whatever, claiming that chicken stock isn't meat is an argument of convenience that makes sense only in the mind of a non-vegetarian.


ironically, the typical jewish way of coping with accidentally eating non-kosher foods is to say that it's ok as long as you took reasonable precautions. so if you asked your host to produce a kosher meal and they, without your knowledge, serve you something that's actually non-kosher, it's ok. so in fact *telling you* it's non-kosher presents a problem that wouldn't exist if they had just kept their mouth shut.

of course i don't recommend this line of thinking as it doesn't translate if you're a vegetarian for political or health reasons.

LuvNewcastle

(16,845 posts)
31. That makes sense to me. It's all about intentions.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 05:32 AM
Sep 2013

Accidentally doing something wrong and intentionally doing it are different things. No one can blame a person for accidentally doing something, at least not an unforeseen accident.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
30. I don't understand.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 05:00 AM
Sep 2013

Why not use vegetable base or stock instead of chicken? I've substituted one for the other many times and it works just fine. Btw, "stock" is what you get from boiling the bones with, basically, a mirepoix. "Base" is the powdered/pasty stuff you keep in your cupboard or refrigerator. It ALL adds flavor. The author should also look up Sofrito -- a technique I learned some years ago that adds an infusion of flavor to the dish -- all without meat.

mucifer

(23,542 posts)
34. This is why I don't order soups in restaurants unless it's a vegetarian restaurant or
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 08:04 AM
Sep 2013

a place like panera where they label the soups and are more accurate because they could get a big lawsuit if their labels are wrong. I remember 30 years ago when I started as a vegetarian, I ordered soup at a restaurant and asked if it was a meat free soup. The waitress said it was. She brought it out and it had bacon bits in it. She told me it was only bacon but not really meat. I learned my lesson.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
35. Ask a rabbi if it's OK to serve dairy with it.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 08:15 AM
Sep 2013

BTW, I do agree with you. Some people carry the vegan concept to a ridiculous extent.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
36. Of course it counts as meat.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 09:29 AM
Sep 2013

And people who try to pass off something to their vegetarian friends that derives from an animal are assholes and not creative, either. Preparing a stock substitute using non-meat products is easy.

Umami is the key to stock substitutes. For the essential umami component, add a generous handful of diced shitake mushrooms to the stock pot, which should also contain aromatic vegetables like carrots, celery, and onions, and salt and season it to taste, and you have a stock substitute that is vegetarian in nature, but that has the qualities needed where stock is called for in a recipe.

The author of this travesty of an article is a moron, and not a skilled cook. He deserved to be berated by his trusting guests.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
38. That's not cool.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 09:45 AM
Sep 2013

A couple of months ago I figured out that it isn't worth the trouble trying to plan a dinner party. We found out we had a vegan, 2 vegetarians, food alergies and a couple of omnivores on the guest list. I had recipes, lists, and cookbooks spread all over the living room floor. The dinner didn't happen.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
43. What I do is prepare a meal everyone will enjoy,
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 10:29 AM
Sep 2013

based on the limitations of the most extreme views of any of my guests.

For example, if a vegan is among the guests, the meal will be a vegan meal, prepared for everyone, and in a way that everyone will enjoy. No "pretend meat" in the meal. It will be a delicious vegan meal and will satisfy everyone.

If a guest has food allergies, the entire meal will be prepared to accommodate that person. It will still be delicious, so everyone can enjoy the meal.

I've found that this plan makes my job as the cook much easier. I cook one meal, not some special thing to accommodate a guest with such food preferences. Instead, I focus on making that meal delicious and tempting for everyone at the table. It has always worked just fine for me to do that. I have a very broad repertory of recipes that can accommodate any special need, while still being delicious and nutritious. No complaints so far.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
48. The question is: would the vegan do it for you?
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 10:46 AM
Sep 2013

The answer is no. If you are invited to the vegan's house, you will get a vegan meal, despite the fact that you are an avowed omnivore. So the most restrictive person gets to control the meal ... always.

I too am able to cook interesting and delicious meals to accommodate people's special dietary needs. But I'm getting sick of it. And I think the non-vegetarian/vegan/lactose-averse people at the table are, too.

Tien1985

(920 posts)
54. Yes, some vegans would and do.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:09 AM
Sep 2013

Not everyone is a vegan due to ethical concerns and have no problem preparing meat for omnivorous friends. Vegans who aren't willing to probably assume their friends respect their wish to avoid hurting animals, or don't invite people they feel would be offended. Which is what someone should do if they feel put upon about making food to someone else's needs/desires.

Just don't invite them over--it's really that simple. There may be lots of excuses for why someone doesn't feel they can do that, but those are just excuses.

I love to cook. I also love eating meat, I'm particularly fond of beef. I have never been forced to cook for anyone. If I don't want to cook for my diabetic sibling, my gluten-free friend, or my vegan co-worker, I don't give them an invitation.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
55. I didn't find out about all the restrictions
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:12 AM
Sep 2013

until after I issued the invite. Fortunately I invited them a month or so in advance, so cancelling did not inconvenience anyone.

Tien1985

(920 posts)
56. Yeah, I totally get the
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:17 AM
Sep 2013

Didn't know until it was too late thing! I was more responding to Frazzled with that post.

If its sprung on you after the fact I can understand pulling out. I think it's a bit much to continue asking people who you KNOW has special dietary needs over if you are just going to resent them for it, though.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
58. I am a vegetarian...
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:28 AM
Sep 2013

and I cook a meat meal for bunnies-mr almost every night. I also make a full-on turkey dinner for thanksgiving. Some of us are capable of cooking more than one thing at a time.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
61. You are the rare one
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:40 AM
Sep 2013

I have been to many vegetarians' homes for dinner over the years, and never once have been offered meat.

PS: bunnies don't count.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
67. lol
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:27 PM
Sep 2013
I just feel like its easy enough to serve what I eat as a side dish. Especially when its warm enough to grill outside. Besides, I'd hate to see my personal marinade recipes go to waste. Ill hook you up with some amazing steak tips anytime!
 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
80. My beloved stepsister is vegetarian
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:02 PM
Sep 2013

and a terrific hostess. And yes, she does cook meat for the rest of us.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
69. Why is that the question?
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:35 PM
Sep 2013

If I go to someone's home to eat, I'll be quite happy to eat what they prepare, since I'm an omnivore. I don't insist on eating animal protein, but I don't insist that anyone else eat it, either. If I sit down to a vegan meal, I'll enjoy it with gusto.

There isn't a question. I'm happy to eat vegan, vegetarian, Hmong, Indian, or any other cuisine. When I cook, I cook for my guests...all of my guests. I've had no complaints so far.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
83. I think you've missed the point
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:25 PM
Sep 2013

I have many vegetarian friends as well as family members. I always cook to their needs when they are present (and do so graciously); and I am known as a particularly good cook, who gets lots of oohs and ahs for their efforts. But I am frankly getting tired of having to adapt my own culinary desires to other people's tastes, and having the rest of the guests have to bend to the most restrictive guests' needs. I'm just kind of tired of it. And contrary to your assertion, I have never in my very ample lifetime had a vegetarian offer me meat or fish at a meal. Never. Not once. Which is okay by me because I am extremely fond of vegetables and meatless dishes. But still ...

You say I should just not invite these friends and family members. I say that's not something I wish to do. I love them. But I do wish they would acknowledge what an incredible pain in the ass it can be sometimes to have to cater to them. I will continue to cook for my non-omnivore friends, but I want them to, say, THANK me for putting my own self and my other guests out. I simply want them to acknowledge that they have controlled the menu and that they appreciate it.

Let me tell you about a dinner party I gave once. I was asked to entertain a well-known artist who was in town, and planned a dinner for about 14 people. Before he came, I was faxed (it was in the days when people still faxed!) a list of his special dietary needs: no dairy, no oils whatsoever (neither olive nor vegetable), no sugars, minimal salt, no flour, etc. etc. I was gobsmacked, and finally came up with a sort of galantine of chicken--boned, rolled, and stuffed with vegetables that had to be sweated (rather than sauteed) because of the no oil restriction; and then the whole thing poached in an extra-low-sodium broth. It was damned bland for the amount of work that went into it, but I put the nicely decorated bundles on an attractive platter, and provided other unsalted and spelt-y kinds of accompaniments. It was not what I would have liked to have served my guests at all, but I felt I had to pay homage to the guest of honor.

For dessert I said the hell with it: I prepared a fresh fruit dish for the artist and made a large chocolate Sacher torte for the rest of the guests. The artist pushed aside his fruit cup and delightedly cut himself a giant piece of the buttery, sugary, chocolaty confection, eating it to the last crumb. And I wanted to freaking KILL him. I had jumped through hoops to adhere to these crazy-ass rules, and it didn't even matter. I cooked for him several times after that, but I ignored the dietary rules. I loved him. I miss him (he died several years ago). But I always have a little memory of this incident every time I have to make something for a dinner when I'd really rather make something else.

I have a few dietary restrictions myself: I have been allergic to peanuts since the mid-1970s, and I developed an intolerance to bell peppers more than a decade ago. Yet I've quietly said nothing when everyone wanted to go to the Thai restaurant, and I had to pick at plain rice (for fear something had even touched a peanut). And I've simply removed the pieces of bell pepper from meals others have served to me. It's not a big deal to sacrifice a meal once in a while as opposed to offending the host or hostess.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
87. I think you may have replied to the wrong post.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:36 PM
Sep 2013

I didn't say any vegetarian had offered me meat, nor did I say not to invite anyone. I didn't say those things, because I didn't say them.

I accommodate my vegetarian friends when they come to dine, and none of my omnivore friends complain about those meals, despite their lack of meat. Instead, they enjoy them along with everyone at the table.

When I visit my vegetarian friends, I eat what they prepare, gladly.

As for not inviting someone, the only people I don't invite are rigid assholes. But, I never invite such people to anything, nor are they my friends.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
49. As frazzled says in her last paragraph -
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 10:52 AM
Sep 2013

would any vegetarians or vegans change their cooking methods or ingredients to accommodate someone that eats chicken, fish, or cheese?

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
70. I have never met a meat eater who didn't also eat other foods.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:38 PM
Sep 2013

The problem does not exist. Why would a meat eater need accommodation? He or she does not have to eat meat to have a good meal. On the other hand, a vegan or vegetarian cannot eat meat, for whatever reason. There is a difference.

I've never felt deprived by dining at a vegetarian or vegan cook's home. Never. And I like eating meat. But, I also like eating everything else, too, so I'm not deprived.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
79. There is a difference, yes, but not a huge one.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:01 PM
Sep 2013

If someone has an ethical or religious reason not to eat animal products, then they really cannot eat them, without violating their ethical or religious beliefs.

I know of no ethical or religious prohibitions against eating vegetarian or vegan meals. None. So, the equation isn't at all balanced.

If I am a guest, I can and will eat anything edible that is served to me. For a vegan or vegetarian, the same is not true. Without violating their ethics or religion, they cannot eat some foods that may be served. The solution, for me, is not to present my vegan or vegetarian friends with food they cannot eat. Their solution, if I am a guest in their home, is to prepare food as they normally do, since I can and will eat any damned thing put in front of me, and will enjoy it, if it is well-prepared.

As a host, I will not knowingly present food that everyone cannot eat. That's my accommodation, and my omnivorous guests will still have a delicious meal. They just won't be eating animal products. OTOH, I have some friends who are ovo-lacto vegetarians. So, I can still use eggs and cheese when they're the only guests with food limitations.

As long as I know who's coming to dinner, I'm good. I have a wide range of time-tested recipes.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
72. Not really. I'm a cook, though, and welcome interesting
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:43 PM
Sep 2013

meal challenges. My lentil loaf, from a recipe I have developed over many years, is unlikely to offend any meat eater. It incorporates a full spectrum of proteins, and has umami enough to satisfy any appetite. I've never had a complaint from anyone, but it has gotten a lot of praise whenever I serve it. It is vegan, but not raw, so, I can't make it for the one friend I have who eats only a raw diet, but he rarely accepts invitations to eat, since he prefers to prepare all of his own food.

I also make a tomato and onion pie, with a double crust, that will satisfy anyone's appetite. I can make it vegetarian or vegan, to suit any situation.

Tien1985

(920 posts)
46. Chili
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 10:35 AM
Sep 2013

If you find yourself stuck preparing for a dinner like that, do chili.

Gluten not necessary, animal products not necessary, but easily added to individual bowls, no nuts or dairy.

Pair it with rice, corn chips, salsa and a salad. It isn't exactly fancy, but it's hearty and can be done to look pretty.

It can be hard to accommodate, but what can you do?

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
40. Vegetarianism is often a moral stance
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 09:56 AM
Sep 2013

While different vegetarians interpret it differently, whatever line they have drawn they don't want to cross it. There's also a sense of frustration in this article in which the author seems to think it's just a stance of some kind; almost like a fad? But of course his vegetarian friends may feel differently.

There's a line from an old cartoon that applies; something along the lines that most Americans are just religious enough to feel guilty that they aren't more religious. In one sense even thinking about vegetarianism for a bit it's hard not to see the point; even if you ignore the environmental damages and the cruel way in which the animals are treated, you still are sustaining your life by killing animals. And it's not necessary (I say that as someone who does eat meat, including beef and chicken).

Lisa: When will all those fools learn that you can be perfectly healthy simply eating vegetables, fruits, grains and cheese.
Apu: Oh, cheese!
Lisa: You don't eat cheese, Apu?
Apu: No I don't eat any food that comes from an animal.
Lisa: Ohh, then you must think I'm a monster!
Apu: Yes indeed I do think that. But, I learned long ago Lisa to tolerate others rather than forcing my beliefs on them. You know you can influence people without badgering them always.

Probably the best thing for this person to have done was to talk to the ahead of time, see where they draw the line, and then work around that. But I guess that wouldn't make as good an article.

Bryant
 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
41. If it comes harvested from an animal in any way, it's not vegan.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 09:57 AM
Sep 2013

Plain as that. Chicken stock may or may not be meat, but it is not vegan by any stretch.

RebelOne

(30,947 posts)
88. It is not vegetarian by any stretch either.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:48 PM
Sep 2013

I am a vegetarian and will not eat anything with chicken stock in it. When I buy canned soups, I have a hard time finding any that do not include chicken stock. So I have very few options in canned soups.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
42. It's meat, but I sympathize with this cook
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 10:22 AM
Sep 2013

For those of us who take our cooking seriously, you can get mighty tired of having to adjust meals and recipes and menus to the various requirements of your guests, whether vegan, vegetarian, lactose intolerant, gluten-free, or whatever. As the author says, there are times when you just feel your "culinary integrity" is being compromised.

Let me say that I never, ever sneak chicken stock into a dish I'm making for a vegetarian. Though one could do so without detection, it's lying and mean, and so I always use vegetable stock or (even though I find it entirely gross) the "no-chicken chicken soup base." It does affect the dish, however, losing richness and flavor. But it'll do. "Do" is not what I like to do, however. And sometimes you feel that when you are inviting people as your guests, they are very ungrateful indeed when they dictate the "gift" you are giving them by inviting them into your home and slaving all day to cook a meal for them. Especially when other, non-vegetarian guests are present. So you do it, but you feel resentful.

Let me also say that I graciously cook an elaborate vegetarian meal almost every Sunday when my son and daughter-in-law come to dinner. It's hard to come up with recipes that both challenge and, in that challenge, are worth the effort. Sometimes there are great successes, sometimes not so much. Thank heavens they are not vegan, however, because I also like to bake, and there's no way I'm giving up butter or other dairy. Vegans, when you come to my house you can either (a) skip the dessert; (b) bring your own; or (c) eat the macerated fruit I've prepared just for you ... while the rest of us eat something delicious and worth the calories. (And please, don't respond to this post with "there are great vegan options for dessert." I've tasted them. And no, you can not make a decent pie or tart that meets my standards without butter or shortening.)

The trouble comes on the big holidays, like Thanksgiving. Of course I make the turkey (and last year, four portions of a French-breaded tofu dish for the vegetarians present). But I resent that the rest of the dishes have to be compromised. I have to put fake sausage in the stuffing (yuk), and substitute vegetable broth for chicken stock everywhere. After you've spent a couple hundred dollars on all the ingredients and stayed up to midnight roasting and shelling chestnuts, you really hate to have the dishes come out not quite the way you know they are best. But I do it; and I do it every year.

It does not mean I like it very much. I just have one request for vegetarians or vegans. When someone invites you to dinner, you should thank them profusely for going to the trouble of adapting their menus for you. I really mean that; for people who like to cook and spend a lot of time and energy doing it, it is sometimes a sacrifice. You should understand that not everybody shares your tastes, and when they accommodate yours, it is a very nice thing to do, not something they "have" to do. Would YOU cook meat for a non-vegetarian guest? I doubt it.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
47. You're a better person than I.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 10:41 AM
Sep 2013

I just gave up.

I suppose if I was used to having to accomodate such wide dietary habits, I would have been fine.

mainer

(12,022 posts)
51. +1000
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 10:56 AM
Sep 2013

I too would never sneak chicken stock into a vegetarian's meal, but I also think vegetariams could lighten up and not be so rigid that they can't tolerate a molecule of meat to touch their lips without going into hysterics. I know vegetarians who won't even use the same dipping sauce as carnivores because another diner's eggroll might leave a meat residue that would contaminate the fried tofu appetizer. Some refuse to eat meals prepared with knives or cutting boards that have touched meat. Some are just plain OCD and controlling what goes in their mouths is how it manifests itself.

I get the moral reasons for being vegetarian, but to be so rigid that you make a shared supper an occasion to exert control over everyone else makes you a pain as a dinner guest. When i the cook get grilled about every detail of food prep is when i the cook refuse to invite said dinner guest back.

Iif a platter of veggies happens to have a few slices of prosciutto nearby, don't throw a fit. Just push it aside.

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
53. Your last sentence really says it all.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:07 AM
Sep 2013

I've known some vegetarians and vegans, and not a single one of them would invite someone to dinner in their home and then prepare meat dishes for them. Not one.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
45. What a pompous ass.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 10:30 AM
Sep 2013

A bad cook too if he can't figure out how to make tasty mushroom risotto without chicken stock. One word: porcini.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
60. Ive actually been sick due to a similar "harmless" chicken stock rice.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:32 AM
Sep 2013

Either this author doesnt know that can happen or simply doesnt care. Either way, he's a real jackass in my book. Dont invite vegetarians to dinner if youre not smart enough or considerate enough to accommodate them.

adding: I was also ill over milk in mashed potatoes. Another harmless oops.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
71. The worst part was...
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:43 PM
Sep 2013

that both times it was done on purpose. Cuz ya know, "no dairy" just means I dont drink milk. Putting it in my food is ok. The jackass with the chicken rice thought it would be fine since the chicken was organic. Really though, he just thinks vegetarians are idiots and completely disregarded my choice not to eat meat. I think thats really what it boils down to, like the person who wrote this article. He blames cooking for being a disrespectful ass. If he was half the cook he thinks he is, not using chicken stock wouldnt have presented such an epic catastrophe for him.

Not to put anyone out though, I always offer to bring a veggie dish to share with everyone. Its easier than trusting people not to dose me with meat sauce. And the dinner host is usually relieved. No gluten people, now theyre a REAL pain in the ass. Its hard to accommodate everyone these days, thats for sure.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
73. I'm going to stick with
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:47 PM
Sep 2013

the meat and potatoes crowd for dinner guests. That way I don't have to worry about any of that crap.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
81. Hey, it's what I do best.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:04 PM
Sep 2013



Actually, I try to make a vegetable and pasta/rice dish with no meat once or twice a week. There's no milk in that. But I do like spicy Thai peanut sauce.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
90. omg.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 02:33 PM
Sep 2013

Thai peanut is my favorite sauce in the world. That and hot & sour soup. I could LIVE off of those.

bklyncowgirl

(7,960 posts)
64. It's about your guests, not about you
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:06 PM
Sep 2013

Would this person serve a nice pork roast to Orthodox Jewish or Muslim guests? How about a Beef stew to Hindus?

It seems to me that a little sensitivity is in order. Maybe try speaking with your guests, see if they object to you serving meat dish for your omnivorous guests alongside a nice vegetarian entree. Chances are they won't.

And guests, if your host goes out of his or her way to accomodate your dietary restrictions, be grateful. As a person with Celiac disease, restricted to a gluten-free diet, I am always touched when someone provides something good that I can eat especially if they don't make a big deal about it in front of everyone else.

I also make sure I express my gratitude where gratitude is due.

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
65. Chicken stock is an abomination to vegetarians!
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 12:10 PM
Sep 2013

What a no-brainer!

Whenever I order something with a sauce at a restaurant I interrogate the wait person about whether there is chicken or beef stock in it. Usually they have to rush back to the kitchen to check. Often they come back with the news that it does have chicken stock. Then I have to change the preparation.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
85. That struck me, too.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:31 PM
Sep 2013

Do "real" entrees require meat? First I've heard.

The author of that needs to expand his knowledge, I think. His tolerance, as well, I'm thinking.

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