When are fundies going to simply GROW UP??!!??

[Archae]

I mean, Christian, Muslim, Judaism, the fundies act like spoiled brats.

Do what *WE* want or we'll throw a tantrum!"

[TheMastersNemesis]

1. Never. They Know What They Are Doing. They Are Vicious Sadists.

[baldguy]

2. They spend their entire life thinking their Big Daddy In The Sky will beat everyone up for them.

What do you think?

[Skittles]

3. it is not a matter of "growing up"

they are utterly brainwashed

[Jamaal510]

4. They are a disgrace to true Christians everywhere.

RW pseudo-Christians such as Santorum et al. do not represent me or Christianity as a whole.

[Egalitarian Thug]

6. According to Christians, nobody represents Christianity as a whole.

That probably has something to do with the whole spectrum of crazy being attracted to the absurd fantasies that religions promote.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

5. No True Scotsman Fallacy. Logically, there is no such thing as a "true christian"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Skittles]

7. I can count on one hand the number of "true Christians" I have actually known

they are very, VERY rare

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. You missed my point.

Logically there is no such thing as a "true Christian".

Christians are self-identifying. If they do bad things, even evil things, they are still Christians.
And it's their PR problem if they do bad things. They are not automatically excluded from the Christian club. In fact, there are plenty of Christians in prison convicted of violent felonies.

Please go back and read the Wikipedia entry on the logical fallacy.

[Skittles]

9. the fallacy is silly

to me a real Christian isn't someone who never sins or never makes mistakes - that's unrealistic - a real Christian is someone who consistently TRIES to follow the teachings of Christ.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

10. I didn't say that.

I did not say a real Christian is someone who never sins or never makes mistakes.

So a logical fallacy is "silly"? Then you can't have a rational argument using the rules of logic, can you? None of the Christians on DU or in real life can give me rational answers to simple questions.

You are no different -- dodging the question and ignoring the rules.

Why am I not surprised?

[Skittles]

11. zzzzzzzzzz

done here

[Manifestor_of_Light]

12. If you don't understand the rules of logic, then we cannot have a discussion.

Every Christian I've ever met online or IRL is like that.

No following the rules of logic. They spout logical fallacies and "you got to have faith".

Hitler said he was doing the work of the Lord, killing Jews. But that does not make him "not a Christian".

[LiberalAndProud]

13. I was right there with you until you invoked Hitler.

Also, historical fallacies aren't superior to logical fallacies.

It is generally believed by historians that Hitler's post war and long term goal was the eradication of Christianity in Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-Bundle-1

[Manifestor_of_Light]

14. You want direct quotes from Hitler? They are easily found on the web.

Hitler's Christianity is not a historical fallacy. You want to ignore what he said, and ignore the rules of logic, that's your business. You willfully refuse to understand these things.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

-Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hitler's work of the Lord only agrees with Biblical scripture:

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

-Colossians 3:17

Nazis had "Gott Mit Uns" on their belt buckles. That means "God is with us".

I'm not going to waste time arguing with a person who deliberately refuses to understand logic.

[LiberalAndProud]

15. Just a couple things, then I'll let this go.

First, I agree that when one Christian has different views from another Christian, it is logically false to say that 'the other' isn't a true Christian. It seems to me that the criteria for being a Christian should be to claim Christianity as one's religion. I understand the sentiment behind the 'true Christian' claim, but making the accusation implies a certain ego centric pride in one's ability to know the mind of God better than another person having the an identical estimation of their own understanding.

While I agree that Hitler was not reluctant to exploit religion to further his political agenda, the historical evidence is pretty clear that he was, in general, not a friend of the Christian church. His regime embraced Nordic pagan mythology and my best guess is that he sought to establish a new church with some version of that mythology at its center.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. Oh, please, my aching back!!! Direct quotes aren't good enough????

He was quite clear that he was a good Catholic. Maybe I should ask why Christians are often intellectually dishonest. They don't follow the rules of logic and fall back on "faith" and "they didn't really mean it when they said it".

For anybody who invokes Godwin, and doesn't like Hitler references, there are tons of other Christians throughout history saying prejudicial and hateful things.

Christians faced with overwhelming evidence of the hateful and evil words of other Christians (and Jesus) have no defense. They run and hide from rational discussion.

[LiberalAndProud]

18. You have assumed much.

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that I count myself a Christian. For the record, I am an atheist. I simply don't think it serves the argument well to argue from a position of ignorance.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

19. If you don't understand the rules of logic, then we cannot have a discussion.

Your atheism is a strawman.

So direct quotes constitute a "position of ignorance"?? I assume you're saying I'm the ignorant one.

Whether or not you are a Christian, if you're not following the rules of logic, then you're not understanding what I am talking about.

Hitler got his anti-Semitism from Martin Luther, who wrote a book called "The Jews and Their Lies". And also "Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants" which was about the slaughtering of 100,000 peasant Christian rebels, AFTER they surrendered to German princes. He did not apologize for this position after he was criticized world-wide. He also said that reason must surrender to faith.

[LiberalAndProud]

21. Where, specifically, did I fail to employ the rules of logic?

I believe you have not investigated the roots of antisemitism in prewar Europe extensively, that is true. You have distilled it down to a single root cause. It's far more complex than that. Certainly Luther was an antisemite. His writings contributed to the bigotry, but it did not originate with him.

Also, the Wiki article is well footnoted. Hitler's persecution of the Christian church is a matter of historical record.

Again, please cite my logical failure.
I'll be happy to correct it.

[11 Bravo]

16. Godwin wanted to call, but he was laughing too hard to use the phone.

[Taverner]

20. Completely independent of this, Godwin was wayyyy wrong

There have been many times in the past 25 years where a Hitler/NAZI comparison is apt.

DiFi's new "Free Flow of Information Act" is really close to what NAZIs, and many other authoritarian governments have done.

I am not commenting on the posts above but that anytime someone uses any NAZI ref, a grazillion DUers run out squawking "GODWIN! GODWIN!" as if we are supposed to forget the NAZIs ever existed

[11 Bravo]

22. Well, if "completely independent of this" is your predicate, I guess ...

you can toss pretty much anything into the mix on any given topic. I was referring to a Hitler - Christian conflation, but whatever melts your butter.

[LiberalAndProud]

24. Thank you for excluding the posts above.

I omitted Godwin intentionally. I think that invoking Godwin to curtail discussion of creeping fascism in today's world is dangerous and dishonest. Still, we should be circumspect in the discussion.

[Taverner]

25. Agreed

[hatrack]

23. Never - they all have "Get Out Of Thinking FREE!" cards ... .

nt

[winter is coming]

26. They aren't. That's why they're fundies. n/t