Uncle, Grandmother in Custody After Toddler's Dog Attack Death

[The Straight Story]

A toddler's uncle and grandmother were taken into custody by police Tuesday after dogs fatally mauled the boy while he was visiting family in Colton, Calif., the night before, police said.

Authorities first received a report that a dog had killed someone in the 700 block of Citrus Avenue at about 5:30 p.m., according to a Colton Police Department statement.

Officers arrived to find a 2-year-old with severe injuries to the upper body, the statement said.

The child, Samuel Zamudio of Rialto, died about 6 p.m. at Arrowhead Regional Medical Center, according to the San Bernardino County Sheriff-Coroner. He was not at his own home at the time of the attack.

...

Animal Control officers took custody of five pit bull mixes at the scene of the attack. It was not clear how many of the dogs were involved.

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Toddler-Fatally-Mauled-by-Dogs-in-Colton-224972902.html?_osource=SocialFlowTwt_LABrand

[DrDan]

1. "five pit bull mixes . . . " - simply insane

hope they get the book thrown at them

[theHandpuppet]

2. Five = Pack

You simply cannot leave a toddler with what is really a PACK of dogs.

[TorchTheWitch]

5. bingo

Though a toddler should be supervised with even one dog.

[DrDan]

10. exactly - no one is safe from a pack - particularly an infant

I cannot imagine the pain that poor child suffered. The punishment must be significant.

[Orrex]

3. I won't know how to feel about this until I read a sermon about the righteousness of pit bulls

[magical thyme]

4. as usual, the article doesn't bother to describe the dogs beyond the inflammatory

I wonder how many were intact males?

I never realized how many idiots there are out there with dogs until a couple weeks ago when I broke up a budding dog fight between 2 intact male dogs -- a registered lab held by a long rope and an intact terrier off leash -- during my dinner break at work.

I was walking the boardwalk on the harbor, watching the boats and greeting various doggies as they passed. As usual, a woman was sitting on the embankment with her young intact yellow lab, who is in field trials training. He was on a long rope, but pretty well controlled by voice.

I stopped to chat with her then continued along the boardwalk. On my way back I passed a man with a medium sized terrier mix. Intact. Off leash in a public area. The dog was lagging 20-30 feet behind the man. Various other people were walking their tiny dogs. In one case a tiny poodle mix was being held by a toddler, but fortunately I passed them long after the incident or this could have been a worse story.

The man walked past the intact yellow lab, with his intact terrier lagging about 30 feet behind. As the intact terrier reached the intact yellow lab, they started growling and heading for each other.

The intact yellow lab ignored his owner's voice command, and continued to approach the loose intact terrier.

The intact yellow lab's owner immediately pulled the rope up short and dragged the yellow lab back to her side.

The loose, intact terrier's owner was blissfully ignorant of the fact that his dog was about to get into a fight. And the loose, intact terrier proceeder to head off the boardwalk and go after the intact yellow lab.

That's when I stepped in, as I had caught up to and was just behind the terrier. I yelled NO! and grabbed for his collar. My voice and hand startled him just enough to distract him from the lab. I was not able to get hold of him, but at the point his owner woke up and started calling for him.

Luckily for everybody involved, he was more afraid of me than interested in the dog fight, and ran to his owner.

I was effing pissed. were those people thinking?

[tblue37]

6. That is so common at dog parks and in areas where people walk or hang out with their dogs.

Too many owners seem to feel no responsibility at all for keeping their dogs under control. It isn't enough for the owners to come up and say they are sorry after someone or someone's dog has been attacked.

Even worse, some idiots don't even seem to feel any responsibility to the people or dogs their dogs attack. They will grab their dogs and walk off, as though they are not responsible for medical or vet bills, and they will continue to bring their uncontrolled dogs to those places, even after such an incident.

I don't have a dog, but I sometimes go walking or to dog parks with friends and their dogs. It can get really scary when the uncontrolled dog is big.

[Marrah_G]

21. We often have to leave the dog park

I have a 7 month old husky. I rescued him at 5 months and he had little socialization. At least 4 times I have had to take him out of the park because of an aggressive or bullying dog. Usually the owner does nothing or is so busy on their smart phone that they don't even notice.

My pup is just building his confidence and as soon as one of these more aggressive dogs see that they single him out. I leave before one of them gets hurt.

[GreenEyedLefty]

28. I am not a fan of dog parks

I took my (very submissive) dog - who just happens to be a pit bull mix - to a dog park a few times... she wants to play but I found out quickly it doesn't work that way... within a few minutes she gets swarmed by other dogs, one rolls her over and then she pretty much spends the rest of the time running away from, not with, the other dogs, getting rolled over, piled on, etc.

I learned later that there are dogs who visit the dog park *daily* who think of it as an extension of their own back yards. Their owners, too. Enter a new/infrequent dog and you have problems.

Again...not a fan of dog parks.

[pnwmom]

9. When my 30 pound poodle mix was being attacked by a pit-bull (mix)

my son was too busy kicking the pit bull off her to notice whether the pit was intact or not.

Our dog raced away and by the time my son caught up with her, the other owners had disappeared with their dogs.

Maybe the people who are more likely to own a pit are also people who are more likely not to neuter.

[uppityperson]

11. Your last line is telling. And inaccurate.Unfortunately there are too many intact dogs of all breeds

[pnwmom]

12. I wonder why the Idaho Humane Society offers an "extremely reduced" fee to neuter

pit bulls (and only pit bulls), along with feral cats?

[uppityperson]

16. According to their website because they see an abundance of "Pit bull type dogs being relinquished

or arriving stray at the shelter and feral cats trapped from across the Treasure Valley".
https://www.idahohumanesociety.org/veterinary/low-cost-spay-neuter-program/

Are you terrified of feral cats too?

[pnwmom]

18. But that begs the question.

Why are pit bulls so much more likely than other dogs to be relinquished?

[REP]

30. Animals are "relinquished" under threat of criminal charges and fines

Negligent and abusive owners are given the choice of correcting the violations and paying a fine or relinquishing the animals to avoid being charged with abuse/neglect. Some people simply lack the funds for fencing, proper outdoor shelters, etc etc in addition to any fines and others simply do not care. In both cases, the easiest thing to do is to sign the animal over to Animal Control. If the animal is healthy enough and is socialized, s/he will be placed for adoption. Breeds with bad reputations will have special incentives to get them rehomed - such as reduced-cost spaying/neutering. The "bad breed" du jour changes; sometimes it's Rottweilers; sometimes it's German Shepards or Chows; currently, it's Big Black Dogs and anything that looks like what people think a pit bull looks like.

[pnwmom]

32. Are you saying that negligent and abusive owners are more likely to own pit bulls? n/t

[REP]

35. No. I believe you are making that assertion. I was explaining about relinquishments

and adoption incentives for hard to place animals.

[pnwmom]

36. Why did you make the point that negligent and abusive people relinquish their dogs

if you weren't suggesting that pit bulls are relinquished by their negligent and abusive owners?

The large majority of relinquished dogs are pit pulls.

[REP]

38. I believe I said "animals"

Holy crap, I did!



But nice hand-waving. Not what I was trying to explain to you.

[pnwmom]

40. Why did you make that point in a thread about pit bulls if you weren't talking about pit bulls? n/t

[REP]

49. Why I do a lot of things is one of those mysteries

Like explain how animal relinquishment works to someone who clearly has no interest in anything but a narrow agenda. I mean, why do I even bother? It's not like anyone reads anything for information ever.

[roody]

64. Because dumb people think pits are

a cool toy.

[tblue37]

7. Apparently the adults were unaware that the toddler had climbed through a window

and thus got to the area where the dogs were.

That is another big problem. Adults should never leave a 2-year-old alone in a place where he can get to another place that is not completely childproofed for safety. People often will stick a kid somewhere alone and then go somewhere else in the house to watch TV or hang out, then they whine that they had no idea the toddler had gotten out and was wandering several blocks away or along a highway near their home, or digging into the kitchen drawer where the big knives are kept, or falling into the creek or the well behind the house, or climbing the shelves that he pulled down and was crushed by.

[Jamastiene]

57. Or playing in a 24 foot deep hole that was dug out without a permit.

http://news.yahoo.com/north-carolina-man-charged-dirt-pit-collapse-killed-215349112.html

Kids don't stand a chance.

[snooper2]

8. People just don't understand them, they are good dogs

blah blah blah blah-


Wrong-
They were designed to fucking kill-

I think it's time for people to have a special license and if their dog attacks someone, fine+jail time. Their dog kills someone, major charges

[DragonBorn]

13. No such thing as a bad dog.

There is no such thing as a bad dog, only bad owners. My first clue that these are bad owners are the fact they left a toddler alone with a pack of dogs. Children should be supervised at all times when their with a dog (even one), unless its a small dog breed (corgie, weiner dog, or similar).

And designed to kill... really? Are we talking about firearms or dogs? All dogs can be claims to be designed to kill, look at some other bigger dogs such as mastiffs or caucasian shepherds those could easily trounce a pitbull.

[RebelOne]

23. Even small breeds are dangerous.

I have a Chihuahua and she is mean as hell and I would never leave her alone with a small child. I have also owned 2 pit bulls and 2 Rottweilers and they were the gentlest dogs ever. One of the Rotties was so sweet that I could trust her around small children. She loved them.

[XemaSab]

39. English shepherds were bred to kill vermin

My ES has killed over a dozen animals in the yard: mice, a bird, possums, lizards, a skunk... It's what she was bred to do, and I can tell her not to kill things but she sees something small and she just goes for it. I didn't teach her to do this; it's something she inherited from generations of ES's before her.

Dogs do the things they're bred to do.

Pit bills were bred to kill large animals. The owner has nothing to do with it.

[roody]

65. Owning five dogs is a red flag also.

[JCMach1]

14. The pit bull loving crew always focuses on the Nurture aspect forgetting it has always been

Nature and Nurture... a Pitbull's nature is to attack.

[magical thyme]

15. I think Vick's dogs -- that were forced to kill or be killed -- proved they are good dogs

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/11/five-years-rescued-vick-dogs-reunite/

Also Hope for Paws: Cadence was used/abused as a "bait dog" and dumped.

and here is a stray that was supposedly "designed to kill"
http://www.youtube.com/v/YQFilJwWbhQ


People should be licensed to keep intact, unneutered males and females of any breed. Intact males of any breed cause the vast majority of attacks.

We need to seriously crack down on dog fighting rings. I'm sorry to say that not long ago a DUer admitted to having attended a dog fight and defended that support.

This is an example of where I agree with President Obama's take: breed specific legislation does not work. The problem is *not* with any one breed. The problem is with irresponsible people.

Packs of any breed are potentially dangerous.
Unneutered males of any breed are potentially dangerous.
Dogs running loose and unattended in populated areas are potential dangerous.

[Orrex]

19. Interesting

Dogs that demonstrate negative traits are the fault of the owners.

Dogs that demonstrate positive traits are inherently good animals.


What miraculous animals!

[magical thyme]

20. not miraculous at all, and I think you know that.

Last edited Tue Sep 24, 2013, 05:42 PM - Edit history (1)

they are inherently good animals -- loving and loyal. Enough abuse or irresponsible parenting or ownership, and they become fearful and aggressive.

People either bring out their best qualities or abuse them until they become dangerous.

Edited to add: I suggest you watch the videos I link to above. Cadence the pit bull was abused as a bait dog and then dumped -- when they found her, her face was horribly mauled, eyelids torn, muzzle badly swollen and absolutely covered with wounds. And we know from the Michael Vick story how those dogs are treated with the worst possible abuse trying to force them to fight. She has every possible excuse for fear/aggression toward humans and dogs. And yet within a short time -- minutes to hours -- of her rescue, she is being kissed on the face by strange people and another rescued pit bull, Chase. By the end of the video, she is kissing a toddler gently.

Chase is a stray pit bull. "Designed to kill?" He was so afraid when they trapped him that he peed while trying to run away. Yet within minutes they are able to pat him and scritch his ears. They rescued Cadence the next day, and introduced Chase to her. Chase's first response? To try to help her by licking her many wounds.

These dogs are not inherently vicious or evil. Vick's dogs had every reason to never trust or be safe around humans or dogs again. They only put down one or two that they felt were too far gone to be saved. The rest were mostly terrified, but gentle. A couple used in children's programs.

[Orrex]

24. I don't accept that they are inherently loving animals

If you came upon a pack of five feral pit bulls in the woods, would you feel safe and protected by their inherent loyalty and love? Or would you assume that they are dangerous animals acting like animals?

The claim is always made that their bad traits are forced upon them by bad humans, while their good traits are inherent in their nature. Sorry, but I don't buy it. It's a non-falsifiable fantasy.

The fact that they can be trained to be loyal is no evidence that they are inherently loving or loyal.

[magical thyme]

25. if I came across a feral pack of any breed of large dog I'd naturally be afraid

pit bull or gsd or rottweiler or large terrier, any other large or medium sized breed.

But the pack behavior of feral or wild animals is not the same as the behavior of an individual dog, or even group of dogs, raised in a home and socialized.

Did you even bother to watch the videos and see how the traumatized, abused pit bull behaved? Or the stray pit bull?

I'm guessing you didn't because your mind is already made up, evidence and facts be damned.

[Orrex]

27. If I post a video of a pit bull mauling someone, will it change your mind?

I doubt it. Your mind is already made up, evidence and facts be damned. Why should I accept your anecdote as conclusive?

The fact that a dog can be rehabilitated from a combat-arena killing machine into a safe, socialized animal doesn't mean that the dog is inherently good. It means that the dog can be trained, a fact which no one has disputed.

[magical thyme]

37. oh ffs. "combat-arena killing machine " seriously?

spare me. Dogs are not machines. They are not "combat arena killing machines." Spare me.

Before pit bulls were the "fighting dogs du jour" it was rottweilers. Before that it was another breed.

You can take any animal -- including humans -- brutalize them, torture them, force them into kill or be killed situations, and make them aggressive.

Vick's dogs -- and countless others like them -- have been rehabbed because they don't *want* to be like that.

The number of pit bulls that have never bitten or attacked anybody is greater by far than the number who have.

And those who have, when you look at the situation in detail, invariably are in bad situations. There is always neglect or abuse involved.

Really, you are so over the top full of shit with that post, I'm not going to continue this any further.

I'm really surprised and disappointed in your bullshit in this thread. I usually enjoy reading your posts. But they usually are not bigoted and ignorant, either.

[XemaSab]

41. Why are they called "pit bulls?"

Could it be that they were bred to kill large animals for sport?

Rottweilers are a herding and stock protection dog. They weren't bred exclusively to kill.

[magical thyme]

45. that was a couple hundred or so years ago

And then they were used for dogfighting as "entertainment," but were also specifically bred to not bite humans so their handlers could pull them out of the fight and not get hurt. And they were originally imported here for protection from predators.

As to Rottweilers, they also are used as police dogs. And they don't fare so well on bite statistics.

http://mabbr.org/pit-bull-ownership/the-truth-about-pit-bulls/

Fact: From 1965 – 2001, there have been at least 36 different breeds/types of dog that have been involved in a fatal attack in the United States. (This number rises to at least 52 breeds/types when surveying fatal attacks worldwide).

When dog bite statistics are taken into consideration versus the population, “Pit Bulls” come in at the BOTTOM of the list.

Registered Population # of Reported Attacks Breed % vs. Population

Approx. 240,000 12 Chow Chow .005%

Approx. 800,000 67 GSD .008375%

Approx. 960,000 70 Rottweiler .00729%

Approx. 128,000 18 Great Dane .01416%

Approx. 114,000 14 Doberman .012288%

Approx. 72,000 10 St. Bernard .0139%

Approx. 5,000,000 60 Pit Bulls .0012%

[XemaSab]

46. A couple hundred?

Dogfighting was legal in parts of the US until 1976.

[magical thyme]

47. a couple hundred as "bull baiting"

and then when that was outlawed as "entertainment," some people switched to dogfighting a couple hundred years ago.

That doesn't meant that all breeders are breeding for dogfighting, or even most. A relatively criminal few considering the overall pit bull population in the US.

http://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/
Also, regarding the rottweiler temperament versus pit bull temperament, per the American Temperament Testing organization, in 2013 the American pitbull rated 86.8, whereas the Rottweiler scored lower at 84.1.

Australian cattle dogs scored only 78.9. I knew an aussie that was an absolute terror. The most frighteningly aggressive dog I've ever seen.

Beagles scored only 80.0. American eskimo 82.1. Alaskan malamute 85.8. Airdale terrier 77.4.
Bernese mountain dogs 86.0. Border collies 81.5. Boxers 83.5. Welch corgi 80.0. Chihuaha 69.8. Chow chow 71.4. Cocker spaniels 82.1. Collie 80.3. Doberman pinscher 78.5. English springer spaniel 84.9. German Shephard 84.8. Golden retreiver 85.2. Great dane 80.3. Greyhound 81.8. Portuguese Water Dog 77.8. St Bernard 85.6. Shetland Sheepdog 68.3.

[Nine]

68. "specifically bred not to bite humans" (only other dogs)

Even if that were true, why are pit bull defenders so enamored of this statement? You're essentially admitting that pit bulls WERE bred to be aggressive toward other dogs. Your argument seems to be that they can be relied on to not attack humans because of their (alleged) breeding. Doesn't it also follow that they CAN be relied on to attack other dogs? You would think self-professed animal and dog lovers would not trumpet this as some sort of positive trait.

And you would think the pit bulls defenders who argue that it is only nurture that makes a dog aggressive or non-aggressive, never nature, would not be using a "nature" argument at all to support their notion that pit bulls are not aggressive toward humans.

But of course pit bull defenders must cherry pick their ideas to defend the breed.

[Orrex]

42. Seriously

"combat-arena killing machine " seriously?

Yes, seriously. That's what Vick trained them to be, is it not? He didn't alter their nature; he took advantage of it. Or do you suggest that pit bulls, with their enormous biting force and tremendously strong necks, are no more dangerous in this regard than a chocolate lab or an Irish setter?

Vick's dogs -- and countless others like them -- have been rehabbed because they don't *want* to be like that.

How do you know that, exactly? Be specific. How do you discern what the dog wants, except in terms of how closely it matches your expectation of what it should be?

The fact that they can be trained means exactly that. They can be trained. It certainly doesn't prove that they're inherently good.

The number of pit bulls that have never bitten or attacked anybody is greater by far than the number who have.

Of course, that's meaningless. The number of lions that have never bitten or attacked anyone is greater by far than the number who have. Should we therefore let them into our homes?

It means nothing to me when a pit bull fetishist calls me bigoted or ignorant of full of shit. It simply demonstrates that they are prone to ill-controlled rage and disproportionate aggressiveness.

[truebluegreen]

31. +1000

[REP]

33. I was in the hospital for 4 days and nearly died from an animal bite this year.

This is the animal.



Her name is Fannie. She's a Maine Coon, but she's on the small side and only weighs 10 lbs.

I'd post photos of what she did to me, but that would probably get my post deleted. I had surgery to correct it six weeks ago, four months after the incident.

She's fine. She was just really scared.

[uppityperson]

53. She is beautiful. I hope you healed ok and she is ok too.

[REP]

71. She's fine!

I've lost full use of that thumb (on my dominant hand, of course) but it's much improved after surgery. It didn't help matters that she chomped on the thumb that I'd had previous hand surgery on after nearly severing it in a fan years earlier

She spent some time in Kitty Jail but other than having to explain she was covered in my blood, she was fine.

[whatchamacallit]

48. Holy shit snooper, that's twice in one week

that we agree

What the hell is happening???

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. to be fair they were designed to kill other dogs, not humans. nt

[HappyMe]

17. Good.

If people want to keep saying that it's the people not the dogs, then start arresting the owners of the dogs that maul. Every time.

[dorkzilla]

26. I agree 100%

And I own a pitbull. She is sweet as sugar, kisses everyone and adores people and other dogs.

I think that people who have dangerous dogs who hurt people should go to jail. Good people raise good dogs. Macho assholes don't fix their dogs and think its cool to be known as a guy with a macho dog. That is NOT the typical pit owner, but they're the ones making the news.

I didn't go out of my way to adopt a pit--ive always been nervous about them--but this little abandoned baby tugged at my heartstrings. She's rewarded us with a lot of affection and more laughs than we can count.

[GreenEyedLefty]

29. We didn't go out of our way to adopt a pit, either

But here we are. We just love her to pieces.

[dorkzilla]

34. Seems we have a lot in common!

I'm also a green-eyed lefty! And we love our pibbles! we're twins!!!

I won't try and change people's minds about them, I let my little girl do that for me. And she's changed an awful lot of minds. You know how you know when you have a really great dog? When your friends come over to visit them and not you! One of my BFFs comes to see her when she gets depressed and she's got 2 dogs of her own! Glad you love yours too!!

[Boudica the Lyoness]

54. I think people must be pretty stupid

if they meet your pit bull and decide the whole damn breed is good. It's like if when I let my son have his picture taken with a lion cub (35 years ago) I decide all lions were good all the time and chucked him in the cage with some.

You must be made aware that sometimes it takes many years for a pit bull's natural instincts to come out. Many pit bulls, raised as pups in good homes, didn't attempt their first child murder until they were several years old......one was 12!!

There, I did my bit for mankind and really nice animals everywhere. Good luck to you shoving your pit bull in peoples faces.

[dorkzilla]

58. They said the same thing about Dobermans.

Whatever

Edited to add--you're calling other people stupid? Suggesting that all pits are potential child killers when the millions of pits in this country clearly aren't baby eaters, let alone violent..hateful and hyperbolic. Hateful toward people with a different point of view and hyperbolic all the way round. I'm sure your silly analogy really convinced people to liken a domestic pet to a wild animal.

BTW if you're actually trying to present a counterpoint it's probably not a good idea to start off with "people must be stupid".

[XemaSab]

70. A massive percent of people killed by dogs are killed by pits

You're making the same argument the gun crazies make. Yes, not every gun owner is a homicidal maniac. But the gun owners who ARE mean that we need stronger gun control laws.

[GreenEyedLefty]

72. Well, I'll be sure to let you know *IF* my dog kills anyone.

But don't hold your breath, okay?

Good god.

[Marrah_G]

22. Having a pack of large dogs is a big mistake

Big, big, deadly mistake.

I don't ever let small children around my dog. He could easily hurt them without even meaning to. It really pisses me off when I see small children at petco and the parents try to bring them over to pet my dog. I always put him behind me and ask them not to come closer.

[riderinthestorm]

43. Its beyond foolish and stupid to ignore animal instincts and breeding

I work with horses every day as a professional. I've also bred and raised more than my share of horses and I'd be an idiot if I didn't understand that they have individual personalities AND instinctual traits.

Same with dogs imho. A border collie for example has very definite in-bred instincts that are almost impossible to re-train (and why would you really? Once they have that instinct its a joy to watch them do the job they were bred to do.) Oh you can have some personality variations and some nurture v nature impact but mostly a border collie is going to herd and be a bit OCD about things like a tennis ball etc. I don't care what you think you are doing to suppress that instinct, its only masked. Its always there.

I believe the pit bull industry has some bad elements who breed inherently "bad" dogs. These are dogs whose natural instinct is aggression, which has been revved up with training. I've had horses I've bred who are naturally aggressive and cranky. I'm a pro though, seeking horses that are fearless and with a certain sense of their own self-confidence (even to the point of challenging human dominance when they thought they could get away with it).

I however am the only one who handles them. And I'd be a fool to ever let such a horse (dog) go to someone who can't handle that.

Others aren't as savvy or discriminating.

And then there's the grandparents in the OP. They clearly had a pack of dogs - always a management issue that needs hyper vigilance that they didn't exercise and its only right they should pay for that. They lost a granddaughter. I grieve with them, for the family, and those who knew that toddler but its only just that they face justice for their bad judgement on every other level. If a horse of mine got loose and injured or killed someone, I'd face judgment too and my choice to keep high-strung, difficult horses would/should surely be called into it.

The difference is that I recognize that some horses, and horse breeds, are difficult and so I take even MORE precautions about that. Some pit bull owners, and their defenders, appear to want to ignore basic instinct and recent breeding history (and by recent I mean in the past 25 years or so) and want the rest of us to just ignore it too.

Crazy. Dangerous. Wrong.

[Orrex]

44. Obviously you don't know what you're talking about

Pit bulls are beautiful, benevolent, innocent creatures, and anyone who's every been mauled to death by one of these angelic quadrupeds should rise from the grave to condemn the dogs' owners, who are solely and entirely to blame.

Decades of experience dealing with animals? Meaningless! What really matters is the deep and heartfelt belief that pit bulls are sweet and wonderful creatures if not for the corrupting influence of humans.

[nomorenomore08]

56. No dog is "angelic." But they're not some special kind of evil either. Just saying...

[Orrex]

60. I've never claimed that they're "some special kind of evil."

However, pit bull apologists routinely claim that their beloved animals are inherently good dogs that "want" to be good, and they only become dangerous when corrupted by the cruelty and evil of humans. That's simply preposterous.

[nomorenomore08]

61. I agree it's preposterous. But how many people actually subscribe to such a caricatured view?

Not trying to start an argument, but I am skeptical.

[Orrex]

63. Within the bounds of the pit bull discussion here @ DU...

There are a number of quite vocal advocates for the dogs who do indeed reject all information that contradicts their views, and they insist that the dogs are only dangerous when the actions of humans has forced the dogs to be so.

They argue that cases of attack by these dogs are anecdotal and non-representative of the breed, and as proof they offer their own anecdotes of good behavior that they insist are definitive and representative of the breed. They go even further, attacking their opponents as ignorant, genocidal bigots who are full of bullshit.


It's fascinating, in a way, because their ridiculously disproportionate ferocity is a close analog of the behaviors that they insist their beoved animals could never possess.

[Tumbulu]

51. I farm, raise sheep and have the help of border collies and guardian dogs

It is exactly as you say, the border collies are at one end of the spectrum and the livestock guardian dogs at the other. The border collie cannot stop focusing on the sheep, the guardian dogs really could care less about sheep and only care about coyotes and bobcats and mountain lions. Their natures are so very different.

Even the sheep breeds have different strengths and weaknesses. It is preposterous to act as though selecting and breeding for particular traits can be erased by training. Traits and tendencies can be directed, but not fundamentally changed.

I agree with your points completely.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

52. We have two Australian Shepherds.

We also have cattle and horses. I could never train one of my Aussies maul a human or another animal to death. I'm sure if they were abused they would cower and hide, not try to kill other dogs, horses, cows cat and humans, like pit bulls do. Our Aussies do not have the instinct to grip and not let go.

Our pup hasn't worked cattle yet, but our older one is a natural. It's amazing how she figured it out. It came natural to her. There are horse breeds known for being hot blooded and even different breeds of cattle have different temperaments.

I worry about people who think they can change an animals instincts by 'training' or just showing it love. I wonder why, with all the wonderful dogs breeds in the country, why do people want a dog breed that was created by man, to fight to the death and was never meant to be a pet or to even do an honest days work.

[theHandpuppet]

59. The breeding of pit bulls or pit mixes should be against the law.

This is one breed that should be allowed and encouraged to become extinct.

[roody]

66. All dog breeding should stop now.

The rescuers are very tired.

[Tumbulu]

73. I am sure they are

Although those of us that depend upon our dogs for their help need good people to keep breeding responsibly.

[roody]

75. I'll settle for a one year moratorium.

[Tumbulu]

74. I worry about this too

It is preposterous, and smacks of a lack of real observational skills .... or knowledge of animals. Vs wishful thinking.

The sheep also are very different depending on their breed.

[Lancero]

50. Pit Owners are just like Gun Owners...

Both deny, at every opportunity, that their thing is dangerous. Pit Owners say that their dogs aren't dangerous, gun owners say that their guns aren't dangerous, and in the middle we have all the children killed by them who are unable to say anything.

[SheilaT]

55. Somehow this entire thread reminds me of various gun threads.

"Responsible gun owners" blah blah blah.

There are lots of irresponsible gun owners, just as there are lots of irresponsible dog owners. This is exactly the sort of thing that is totally preventable if the "adults" in charge (and they deserve the quote marks) had actually behaved as adults and supervised that child.

Personally, were I in charge of the criminal justice system I'd have the adults left alone for a while with genuinely vicious dogs.

[99Forever]

62. Precisely.

Same exact mentality of selfish irresponsibility and disregard for the heath and safety of every one except themselves and their "wants."