Pope Francis on abortion, gays, and contraception (toon).

[Laelth]

To quote Frank Herbert from Dune (with a little twist): "Against my better judgment, I like this Pope."

-Laelth

[Agschmid]

1. Kick...

There was a very good "On Point" the other day about this subject... apparently just mentioning the subject has changed the entire dynamic. Check it out under iTunes podcasts or the WBUR site...

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/09/23/pope-francis#disqus_thread

[Laelth]

3. Interesting. Thanks.

I think the Pope has "evolved" on these subjects, if you will, and I, for one, am glad he has.

-Laelth

[Bluenorthwest]

2. In actual fact Francis has called gay people evil, our families 'an attack on God' and adoption

by gay parents as 'a form of child abuse'. Do you agree with him that we gay folks are a product of the author of all evil?
I am sick of these posts that pretend the world's leading anti gay person is a friend to gay people. It is disgusting.
I ask the OP directly, do you think my family is 'an attack on God'?

[Laelth]

4. No, I do not.

Nor am I defending the Catholic Church in any way.

That said, this Pope looks like an improvement to me over previous Pontiffs, and I celebrate this improvement. It could be a lot worse.

-Laelth

[Bluenorthwest]

5. You are promoting an anti gay bigot as if he was for equality and decency. That's not cool.

I see not one single change in the dogmatic attacks on gay people by this man you like. He has many times called us the product of Satan. Is that what you celebrate?
You are taking part in an attack on good people who never harmed you in any way. It is disgusting.

[Agschmid]

7. Are you okay?

[cleanhippie]

14. Are you?

Surely you see blue's point that while compared to previous popes, this one is way better, but he is still a homophobic, patriarchal misogynist who protects child-rapists.

If you don't understand that, perhaps you should be asking yourself if you are ok.

[Agschmid]

17. No I see that.

But I have about zero/zilch/nada to do with the church and I can appreciate a cartoon without personally attacking the poster of the OP.

[cleanhippie]

20. I see no personal attack of the OP.

Like me, blue sees this new pope as a change in tone only. And like me, feels that those who fawn over this new pope as some kind of breath of fresh air instead of the canned perfume that only hides the odors, as short-sighted.

Yes, this pope is better than previous pipes.
Yes, this pope has said some very progressive things.

Yes, this pope is the head of the most patriarchal, misogynistic institutions the world has ever known, and continues to protect child-rapists.

Will this pope reform the RCC and bring it out of the 17th century into the 18th? I hope so, but so what? The church will still be stuck centuries behind human equality.

[el_bryanto]

22. "You are taking part in an attack on good people who never harmed you in any way. It is disgusting."

I don't want to quibble - but how is this statement not a personal attack?

Bryant

[cleanhippie]

28. Indeed. Perhaps better wording is in order.

I see through blue's frustration and understand the point trying to be made. Do you?

[el_bryanto]

29. I do - but I'm not sure that such rage is productive, particularly as directed against

fellow DUers. There are probably a few Catholics at DU who are comforted by a pope who more closely aligns with their world view than the previous one. This approach of treating anybody who says anything nice about the new Pope as a homophobe / bigot isn't likely to produce good results, in my opinion.

Bryant

[Bluenorthwest]

38. GD SOP says no threads about religion. We endure an aggressive and constant onslaught of

OPs that seem to think the rules don't apply and they post material which is about the Pope, and also very often about gay people. These are posts about religious attitudes toward gay people like me. If they are going to be injected into GD, they are going to be dealt with as politics, not as religion. This is not sport. The RCC funded Prop 8. The Pope is a politician who has been wildly active in opposing LGBT equality.
What I object to is not 'nice things about the Pope' but lies being told in a political forum. The Pope is not pro gay rights. The claims that he is need to fucking end. I object to the exploitation of LGBT issues to promote a global leader of the opposition to LGBT rights.

[el_bryanto]

42. I agree that religious threads at GD are problematic

And it would be best to limit discussion of the new pope to the religious forums.

Certainly I get upset or irritated when someone posts a thread attacking Mormons (my particular faith) or Christians in general in GD, which happens fairly regularly.

I think you overreach when you talk about lies though - I think it's a difference in perspective. But I don't think the OP is deliberately lying, so much as he has a different view of the pope than you do.

Bryant

[Agschmid]

55. +1

[Laelth]

58. I have read this post several times now, and I concede that I could have done better.

My own enthusiasm about the Pope's divergence from the "tone" of his predecessors cause me to title the thread poorly. Seriously, if the thread title had been "Jesus on abortion, gays, and contraception", would you have felt differently? Jesus was silent on those issues. In the posted cartoon, the Pope says nothing, so it was inaccurate for me to put words into Francis' mouth. Only Jesus and the omniscient narrator speak in the cartoon. Should I have left Francis' name out of it?



-Laelth

[cleanhippie]

39. No, probably not. But it's intellectually more honest.

Harsh, but honest.

[el_bryanto]

40. Do you think that believing Roman Catholics have a place at DU? nt

[cleanhippie]

46. Huh? When did I say another doesn't belong on DU?

Answer: I never said or implied any such thing.

[el_bryanto]

49. Well it is a clash of values isn't it?

You do think that Blue's message is harsh but intellectually honest. A believing Roman Catholic has to put some stock in the Pope as I understand it - if a person supports the Pope, do they really share the values that Democratic Underground is supposed to stand for?

Or to badly quote a biblical verse, "No man can serve two masters." Are believing Roman Catholics who participate at DU serving two masters?

I am talking specifically about believing Roman Catholics - in all faiths there are those who attend or participate more out of family obligation or a sense of community, and they probably wouldn't have the same conflict.

Bryant

[cleanhippie]

68. My feelings about the laity are well known.

Come on over to relgion and read about it sometime.

As to whether they, or anyone else should be allowed to post on DU is for admin to decide. I'm all for an open forum.

[el_bryanto]

76. It is a bit of a dodge to say it's someone else's decision.

Although of course accurate. I'm asking what you think though; lets maybe put it another way. A DU Roman Catholic might well believe himself or herself capable of being both a good practicing Roman Catholic and a good member of DU. Do you think that such a hypothetical person is fooling himself?

Bryant

[cleanhippie]

78. A dodge? I explicitly stated "I'm all for an open forum".

Dodge? Really?



And I'm happy to discuss my personal opinion about religious believers. Ie done it countless times already. Feel free to peruse my older posts, you will get little ambiguity from them. Start an op in religion where that discussion belongs and I will be happy to respond. Others will too.

[el_bryanto]

81. I participate there regularly, so perhaps we'll have a chance to discuss it. nt

[cleanhippie]

82. Sounds good. Until then...

[MNBrewer]

71. Wouldn't that depend on what they believe?

[Humanist_Activist]

41. I know of at least one Catholic on this board who teaches hate to schoolchildren...

in 8th grade.

He teaches the Catechism of the Catholic Church to them, including the sections on sexuality. I called him out on it, he deleted the post, and frankly I'm appalled he wasn't banned from this message board, he obviously doesn't belong, especially after revealing that.

Frankly I'm suspicious of this Francis fan club that is developing on DU.

[el_bryanto]

44. I'm not - but then I'm not surprised

Again you just had Benedict who was saying things that were presumably anathema to most DU Catholics. Now they have someone who is saying a lot of things we agree with (although his record on other issues is much worse). DU Catholics (believing Roman Catholics) under Benedict had a split - a division between their desires to be a good Roman Catholic and a good member of Democratic Underground.

Obviously if you aren't a believing Roman Catholic the solution might well be obvious - stop being a Roman Catholic and this discontinuity disappears. But that's not a palatable solution for believers.

So when they see a Francis, someone who, in their mind, narrows this gulf between being a good member of DU and a good Catholic, they want to trumpet him.

Bryant

[Laelth]

45. I appreciate your skepticism. Honestly.

Only time will tell whether those of us who see reason to hope for positive change within the RCC were right to harbor such hope. We could be dead wrong. All the same, I prefer to hope.



-Laelth

[KittyWampus]

52. better wording? No, Bluenorthwest intentionally attacks DU'ers and gets away with it.

It's a big part of what he does.

It's intentional.

I say this through experience. By through my own personal experience and what this poster has done to other DU'ers.

[cleanhippie]

64. If you say so. I'm not that familiar with their posting habits.

[MNBrewer]

69. It might be personal in that it references a person, but in what way is an "attack"?

[Laelth]

9. I thought the cartoon was great.

Putting aside the Pope and the Catholic Church, the cartoonist makes a good point that Christ was absolutely silent on the issues of abortion, gays, and contraception. I think it's a good idea to remind Christians of that fact.

Do you not agree?

-Laelth


P.S. The Pope doesn't need me to defend or "promote" him, but I do see Francis as an improvement over his recent predecessors.

[Agschmid]

11. It's not worth your time with this one. Good cartoon.

Welcome to GD.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. 'This one'? Seriously Senator McCain?

The OP has refused to address a single point I have made and you simply make rude personal comments.

[Agschmid]

53. My comments are not personal...

If so I would have been hidden by a jury, if you'd like to alert go ahead. Also the OP posted a cartoon and your response was to flame him/her so that's likely why they choose not to respond (wise choice on their part as we are engaged in a flame war at this point).

[Humanist_Activist]

13. He's an improvement in tone, not in message, that is the issue...

this is all PR, nothing more or less. He's a Conservative, just like the last 2 popes, just one who isn't as abrasive as the last one. For some reason, he can slam the "gay lobby" worldwide, and misguided progressive claim him as one of their own. I'm not sure if I should laugh at their naivete or cry at their selective hearing.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. Let me know when the Pope actually SAYS what you claim. Do I agree? Sure but does

Francis ever admit that Jesus did not attack gay people like Francis does? No he has done the opposite, he attacks gay people in the name of Christ, as 'Vicar of Christ' no less.
The 'improvements' you speak of are nonexistent, but the hate speech of Francis is common as dirt. He calls my family evil. How would you feel if it was your family instead of 'those people'? Do you did those who say your family is from Satan? Or is that treatment only for gay people?

[JNelson6563]

12. Here's a fact for you.

This Pope is a vast improvement over previous Popes in many ways.

I realize that factual statement does not focus on sexual orientation but none the less it is a true statement and a positive change in the world, albeit a small one.

Some of us are glad of the wee bit of progress going on over at the Vatican. It almost appears as though you believe and are trying to have others believe this makes us homophobes, do I have that right?

Julie

[Humanist_Activist]

21. How is this pope an improvement? He speaks softly, but is just as hateful...

Its like David Duke after he tried to mainstream himself, the tone changes, the message doesn't.

[JNelson6563]

32. Ok, really?

I'm sure you are well aware of what this new Pope has said and done since becoming Pope. You don't ask that question in earnest.

Is the church in the same medieval mindset in regard to sexual orientation? Yes and it will always be because doctrine teaches that sex is for the purpose of procreation (so of course this teaching is at the root of doctrine on abortion and birth control~~issues you know the RCC will never change on either).

I don't support any religion or religious but am always glad if there is a more progressive voice in the pulpit. Feed the poor, stop being greedy and other bits of enlightened wisdom are always welcome in my world. Every step on a long journey is of value so I try to appreciate them as they come, especially since they are often too few and too far between.

Julie

[Humanist_Activist]

35. The problem is that, with the Catholic Church, like other religions, much of that...

stuff you support comes with unreasonable strings attached.

Honestly, I wish the Church would just leave the rest of the world alone, haven't they done enough? Stay in their stuffy Cathedrals and churches, and let the rest of humanity advance like it always does. Let them wither on a vine, its already going too slowly as it is, this outdated institution has outlasted any possible usefulness it ever had.

[JNelson6563]

84. "Stuff you support"

Oh like feeding the hungry, helping the disadvantaged and anything that contributes to the greater good?

That's what I support. I'm glad for any voice that also supports such humanist things. I'll also gladly tell them how very wrong they are on the things they are wrong about.

But I suppose, godless heathen that I am, that makes me a "supporter" of the Pope, all the oppression we've had from religion throughout millenia and any and all bigotry ever expressed by a religious person as far as you're concerned.

Okey dokey, at least I know where you're coming from.

Julie

[Humanist_Activist]

37. This Pope has reaffirmed Church doctrine on sexuality, bashed "gay lobbies"...

but also said we should be concerned for the poor, and is generally anti-capitalist. You know, Pope Benedict is also anti-capitalist, but I don't see you lauding him. He also spoke similarly on similar issues to this Pope.

ON EDIT: This honeymoon you have with this Pope will wear off.

[blueamy66]

16. I believe Pope Francis will definitely change the Catholic Church.

He just recently spoke on the subject.

[Laelth]

24. Seriously. How is this not an improvement?

Only last week, the pope surprised many people by saying that he will not focus on abortion, gay marriage and contraception because the church has become "obsessed" with these issues. Instead, he wants to pursue an inclusive church, one that is "the home of all, not a small chapel that can hold only a small group of selected people."

Many liberal Catholics were heartened by his remarks. Chris Pett, president of a Catholic organization for lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders in Chicago, called it a shift in tone and message regarding the church's position on homosexuality. But the pope's focus on Christian hospitality is actually deeply conservative.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/09/24/pope-francis-abortion-contraception-gay-marriage-column/2865515/

I'll take that attitude over Benedict's any day of the week.

-Laelth

[Bluenorthwest]

30. Becaue the next day his organization was back on the full tilt attack and Frankie said zip

When will he speak against Dolan or that guy in Minneapolis? This routine where he says vague things then his staff comes out with the full hate attacks is a PR thing.
"Minnesota Archbishop John Nienstedt Claims Satan Behind Gay Marriage, Condoms And Porn"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/15/minneapolis-archbishop-gay-marriage-satan-john-nienstedt_n_3927615.html

NEW YORK CITY, NY — The nation's leading Roman Catholic archbishop is clarifying remarks by Pope Francis regarding gays and lesbians.

Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, who traveled last week to Brazil with the pope for World Youth Day, told "CBS This Morning" that the remarks were about accepting homosexuals without accepting homosexual behavior, the Christian Post reports.

And according to CNN, Dolan said the pope was "on a high" from his first international trip as pontiff when he said "Who am I to judge?" gays and lesbians.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=1016&sid=26249445

[Humanist_Activist]

31. Not to mention that his message was essentially to evangalize in a way to make...

homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny seem more acceptable.

[Decaffeinated]

65. So until he does everything up to code and turns around...

... a monolothic organization with centuries of baggage...

We can't give him a thumbs up when he does do something right? Doesn't seem like much motivation for him to keep doing the right thing then.

[Laelth]

73. Welcome to DU.

And thanks for the post in this thread. I appreciate the support.



-Laelth

[Agschmid]

6. Chill.

It is certainly a step in the right direction... And wrong or not people are entitled to their own beliefs even if they choose to waste their energy on hatred. Change does not often happen overnight and lately things have been moving in the correct decision. Remember your country (if you are an American citizen) also just jumped in the bandwagon.

I'm gay, I'm out, things are heading in the right direction.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. What steps? And if people are allowed beliefs why are you telling me to 'chill'?

I think poorly of Francis and other bigots and those who promote them. Francis and his RCC Corporation owe apologies and amends to millions.
Francis is a hate mongering bigot. I'm not a Catholic so to me he's just a politician who speaks hate, like Mike Huckabee. I will always oppose hate mongers. Sorry if that bugs you and your faith mates.

[Agschmid]

10. Faith mates...

Hope you a paying for the t shirts for me and my "buddies"...

Hey just a thought... We see through you.

[yodermon]

34. Of course he is. Of course the RCC is an organization premised on hate.

However, if it's ever to change, or to *begin* changing, what would it look like? Of course Francis' (and the Church's) statements on gays are abhorrent and should be roundly condemned by everyone. However, I'm hoping that his conciliatory tone on other issues is setting the stage for reform by the next pope and the younger generation of Catholic leadership that (hopefully) has no patience for the bigotry in church doctrine.

If you're looking for a wholesale retraction/reversal of thousands of years of hate-based theology in one fell swoop, then you're obviously setting up a straw-man scenario that will never, ever happen. Enjoy bashing your fellow DUers with it though, I'm sure it feels very good.

[Bluenorthwest]

47. I'm looking to express my opinion. I don't give a shit how they run the Vatican

It's about money and power, theology is a veneer used to get rank and file people to pay for political agendas and personal behaviors they would otherwise reject.
You have a warm fuzzy day now.

[KittyWampus]

50. -more personal attacks. Bluenorthwest, yesterday you essentially smeared me as a homophobe

doing a Jerome Corsi… going through my old DU posts on gay marriage & civil unions and cherry picking them to caste me in the worst light. And you did it for one reason only- as a personal attack.

You searched my old DU posts going back many years and picked two out of context.

You glossed right over and intentionally didn't post any of my posts about:

-being married for to a gay man and living with him and his partner happily for 8 years (it was more of an adoption, really)
-my being told by a fellow DU'er that Civil Unions didn't give same full rights/benefits and my CHANGING MY OPINION
-my adherence to notion that civil unions should be the legal norm for all couples- straight or gay because it's about a legal contract
-my assertion all domestic couples should be able to sign a legal contract with no need to stand before a judge
-my pointing out that not all legal domestic partnerships even need to be about romantic involvements/sexual attraction
-my most recent post about gay issues was fairly recently in LBN about Walmart extending health benefits.

No, you ignored the entire breadth of my posts and smeared me in a thread that had nothing to do with gay rights.

The sad thing is you get away with this sort of thing.

[Agschmid]

56. You do realize you are the one who called me faith mates?

That happened right?

[bklyncowgirl]

23. Good cartoon. Too bad this thread has descended into the usual Popebashingfest.

I like the fact that it's Jesus on the the crucifix who is saying "Can I talk about rich?"

By the way, I don't think this Pope is perfect. Far from it. I do think he may be in the process of evolving from some horrendous views regarding gay and lesbian people and for a man of his background and beliefs that is something that should be applauded.

[Humanist_Activist]

26. Get back to me when he apologizes for his conduct and treatment of GLBT people in...

Argentina that lifetime ago that was 3-4 years.

Until then, he's just another unapologetic bigot with a bullhorn.

[Laelth]

27. Thanks for the post.

This subject is near and dear to a lot of historically persecuted people. I am totally OK with those frustrations and feelings being vented in this thread, but I am glad you enjoyed the cartoon all the same. Jesus was a liberal. Reminding Christians of that fact is useful, I think, and this cartoon does it well.

-Laelth

[Humanist_Activist]

33. "Jesus was a liberal." Correction, Jesus is a mirror, reflecting the beliefs of believers...

the Gospels are too ambiguous to be used in support of any argument about Jesus' character, at best he's a self contradiction, what would be expected from a character that was largely constructed/recalled well after he was dead.

[Laelth]

43. Having read Nietzsche on this subject, I concede that you are right.

That said, the Pauline Christ, the Christ of "The Sermon on the Mount," i.e. what most Christians popularly understand Christ to be, held beliefs that shaped modern liberalism (and socialism). That Christ, I dare say, was far more liberal than most of the people who now invoke his name in aid of their backwards crusades against what they deem as "evil."

-Laelth

[adirondacker]

36. Interesting side note. JFK was the only Catholic elected as president and many thought his beliefs

would not allow for his election in the US. Hoover and Nixon were Quakers.

http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html

[Bluenorthwest]

25. Posts about religion are not supposed to be in GD. There are good reasons for that.

General Discussion (Forum): About This Forum
Statement of Purpose

Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU.

[cleanhippie]

48. Who cares what Jesus/ the bible says? It's BECAUSE of religion that this attitude exists at all.

Jesus said this. No, Jesus said that. Well, the bible says.....


We face this issue of inequality, hatred, and bigotry because people have used religion and scripture as the basis for it. How about we stop using scripture and stop listening to people who use scripture and religion as the basis of their argument altogether and instead start using reason, critical thought, and scientific facts to chart our course.

[Laelth]

51. Well, that's the thing.

Lots of people do, in fact, care what Jesus said. I posted this cartoon to remind said folks that Jesus said nothing about abortion, gays, or contraceptives. On the other hand, he did have a lot to say about rich folks. That struck me as a pretty liberal and enlightened reminder that might be of use to Christians who have become quite confused about Christ and his teachings.

Sorry if you don't agree.

-Laelth

[totodeinhere]

54. The Pope also made a recent comment that blasted abortion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014599642

His stands on the issues of LGBT's, abortion, contraception and the lack of female clergy in the church are no different than those of his predecessor. He is merely trying to put a smiley face on those issues and it's nothing but a PR campaign. His stand on doctrine has not changed one bit.

[Laelth]

57. True. Perhaps I erred in putting the Pope's name in the thread title.

It might have been better had I titled it "Jesus on abortion, gays, and contraception." Indeed, as the cartoon cleverly demonstrates, Jesus was silent on those issues (as far as we know). That was, I think, the cartoonist's point.

-Laelth

[ZRT2209]

62. he's threading a needle here between Catholic doctrine and common sense/real life

I think he's doing the best he can.

[Dawson Leery]

77. The same way which John the 23rd did.

[Sheri]

59. cool. great cartoon, thanks.

[Laelth]

79. My pleasure. n/t

-Laelth

[ZRT2209]

60. He cares more about his men than the spice.

[Arugula Latte]

61. Goddamn, I'm getting bloody SICK of all this slobbering over this pope!

Why can't people see past the massive PR campaign from the Vatican? The gullibility is unbelievable. This guy is no breath of fresh air -- he's there to put up a smokescreen to make it acceptable for that horrible institution to continue their vile policies against women and gays.

One small example: This "enlightened" pope just ex-communicated a pro-gay marriage priest. The head of the Vatican is just as evil as ever.

[ZRT2209]

63. that's not right. he's got conservative Catholics in an uproar.

[Arugula Latte]

66. They're in an uproar over windowdressing.

He's not as openly, flamboyantly medieval in his oratory as the last one, and that upsets the extreme rightwing nutbags in the RCC. Yet the evil works and policies of the Catholic Church continue on as ever.

[Laelth]

67. I take it you didn't like the cartoon.

Or, perhaps you did? Should I have titled this thread "Jesus on abortion, gays, and contraception"?

Would that have made a difference?

-Laelth

[Arugula Latte]

70. You posted this comment: "I like this pope"

You like that he just ex-communicated a priest for supporting gay marriage and women's ordination? You like that he's intent on continuing the Church's policies that are invested in keeping women and gays as second-class citizens?

[Laelth]

72. OK. So, you don't want to talk about the cartoon. Fine.

Hey, cut me some slack. I at least added that my liking this Pope was "against my better judgment."



-Laelth

[Arugula Latte]

74. That's what is getting to me. Otherwise liberal, enlightened people are falling for the PR.

It's the Reagan strategy -- "Oh, he's such a likable guy! How can you say anything bad about him? So what if he supports union busing, slaughtering peasants in Central America, trading arms for hostages ..."

[Laelth]

75. You may be right.

It may be nothing more than PR. On the other hand, the Pope's new "tone" may signal the beginning of long-needed reform in the RCC. Who's to say?



-Laelth

[Zorra]

80. It's gonna take a lot of time and love to repair what the church has done to

to the LGBT community over so many centuries. I doubt if it can ever be totally repaired, but that's no reason not to try. It's not just the catholic church, many other Christian sects, and other non-christian religions, such as some of Islam, have caused, and continue to perpetrate and promote, hate, injustice, and inequality against us for no rational reason.

I am hoping that, at some point, the Pope will publicly denounce his former positions regarding LGBT persons and our rights, admit past lies and mistakes of the church, and ask catholics to accept LGBT individuals, families, and behavior as natural and not in any way offensive in the sight of the conceptual entity he/they recognize as their God.

I'm really tired of people hating me for no rational reason, and the Pope is in a position to help put an eventual stop to it. I was nearly in tears last night from some experiences I had yesterday, and had to think of the many good straight people who support me and don't hate me simply for who I am, in a struggle to prevent myself from becoming a hater in response.

Bigotry, hate, prejudice, inequality, injustice, and discrimination toward LGBT will never end until the religions that promote and perpetuate these vile conditions decree it to be wrong.

[Sissyk]

83. +1000

Hugs to you Zorra, my friend!