Why Are So Many Christians So Un-Christian?

[xchrom]

http://www.alternet.org/belief/why-are-so-many-christians-so-un-christian



In an age where your average Republican politician is thumping the Bible with one hand and trying to strip food from the mouths of the poor with the other, it’s become a sad cliché to point out how little the most outspoken Christians have in common with their charity-preaching, forgiveness-loving messiah. It’s only gotten worse in recent years, with the followers of the man who cured lepers threatening to shut down the government if Obama insists on giving more people access to healthcare.

But while a nudge and a laugh at the silly Christian hypocrites is a good time, it’s worth looking deeper at what’s really going on with the parsimonious haters of the poor who claim to speak for Jesus. The fact of the matter is that right-wing Christians refuse to see their differences with Jesus as hypocrisy. To really understand how religion works in the world of politics, it helps to understand that it’s usually more about rationalizing what you already want to believe than it is about actually studying your religious texts and drawing intelligent conclusions from it.

So what’s going on when Ken Blackwell, the former Ohio Secretary of State and current conservative activist says things like there is “nothing more Christian” than cutting needy people off food stamps? It may seem like the rational thing for Blackwell to have done was simply admit that there’s nothing in the Bible that even comes close to suggesting that it’s good for people to be forced into starvation simply because they had the misfortune of living in a time of high unemployment. After all, Jesus just simply gave people the loaves and the fishes. He didn’t withhold the food, and like Blackwell did, say that being able to eat food would “breed dependency” and that starving the poor was a good way of “empowering others and creating self-sufficiency."

Blackwell is stretching; it’s obvious he’s stretching. So why go there at all? Well, as stupid as he sounds, it’s the rational choice. Being considered a Christian means you get a lot of unearned esteem from the public, and you’re given a lot more benefit of the doubt than if you claimed to be, say, an atheist. Indeed, for many audiences, it’s better to sound like an idiot while claiming to be Christian than to sound intelligent without mentioning religion at all. It makes sense that a politician or activist would want to be perceived as a Christian even if they have to bend themselves into pretzels to explain away the obnoxious clash between what they believe and what even the most strained but intellectually honest interpretation of their Bible would have you believe.


***disclaimer: i am a church going christian who believes churches, synagogues, mosques, etc should do things like pay taxes.
This article is about behavior. behavior that really emerged in the 20th century on the part of some christians and it really is perplexing and sort of endlessly fascinating.

[JHB]

1. Because it would mean forgoing money, power, and comfortable prejudices.

Much easier to cherry pick scriptural passages, conveniently ignore others, and develop doctrines that effectively rewrite the teachings of a man they consider a deity... nor can they bear being seen as dismissing those teachings.

Or, to use their own terminology, they are spiritual/moral "takers", people who just "want stuff" without putting in the hard work.

[gopiscrap]

109. you got it

[Recursion]

2. Because selling all your goods to give them to the poor, and going out with only a cloak...

... to preach the Good News is hard.

[chervilant]

3. "Thumping the Bible..."

What an apt description.

To really understand how religion works in the world of politics, it helps to understand that it’s usually more about rationalizing what you already want to believe than it is about actually studying your religious texts and drawing intelligent conclusions from it.

I just had someone spend better than twenty minutes telling me that s/he would rather help people who are helping themselves (even if they're Black!) than help people who are "takers." This person professed to being a devout Christian.

As I listened, I realized that this person's religious beliefs are visceral, and emotion trumps rational almost every time. This person cannot "see" the irony, because the rationalizing mentioned in this Alternet article is ubiquitous, by definition, among "devout Christians."

(Disclaimer: I am irreligious -- some would label me "atheist" -- with no drive to invent some sky god to explain natural phenomena, compel me to experience this universe with joyous awe, or guilt me into 'helping' my fellow human beings, and all other beings.)

[JI7]

4. because religion usually has nothing to do with how good

someone is.

i think people who are good christians would be good even if they were of another religion or no religion.

asshole atheists would be assholes if they were christians .

[Demeter]

5. Religion is a social force for conformity

Everyone joins to be part of the tribe. Those that don't buy in are enemies, outcasts, mockers, show-offs, no-goodniks.

Religion is the original Divide and Conquer instrument.

ETHICS is the study of good and evil, and the choices one makes in life, the principles one uses to decide what to do in any situation. Religions often clothe themselves in somebody's ethical prescriptions, but seldom go beyond that into implementing those ethical prescriptions.

The only inclusive "religion" I've ever known was Unitarian-Universalism. It was more a debating and marching society devoted to 7 principles of caring for people and the environment. Then, my local branch got a new leadership, top to bottom, and went all touchy-feely. It lost its intellectual rigor in the pursuit of "spiritual" qualities.

I haven't been back since. I haven't the freedom to drive over 40 miles to find a less-sold-out branch, either.

[Rain Mcloud]

6. Because you would never spend your life chasing a Leprechaun

unless there was a big pot o' gold at the end.
Fear,Greed,Envy,Hate are the four fingers of the gauntlet used to cave in the heads of unworthy infidels.
That being said,i really love the message from the new Pope.
!Mio Gusto!

[liberal N proud]

7. Organized Religion which is different than faith

Organized religion has tarnished Christianity because its leaders have used the blind faith of the followers to further their own agendas and many times that plays right into politics.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. When do we begin?

[xchrom]

9. i m SO stealing that! nt

[arely staircase]

11. as a Christian I find your post to be

right on the mark.

[Lobo27]

18. Jesus would not be welcomed in America..

It's because christians have become so closed minded. That it borders on insanity....

I was raised Catholic, by very liberal parents, and they were also very religious.

I remember when I was in my early teen years a cousin of my came out as gay.
It did not go over well with the family, and he lived with us for many years. My
parents were the only ones that opened doors for him. I asked them what would happen
If I was gay, and they simply said you're our son, and our love for you will never wane.

Another cousin married a black man, they have some of the most beautiful children ever.
It did not go well... I again asked my parents, I know we are hispanic and the family always
marries other hispanics, but what if I bring a really nice black girl home to you guys. They simply
said it was my choice on who I loved, and that they wanted grandchildren.

As the years passed, their church attendance waned, my mom still prays on a regular basis. She has her pictures
of saints and what not. But it seems they out grew the religion.

[Dash87]

53. Jesus was an evil commie!

He gave to the poor and lived a meager lifestyle!

[libdem4life]

99. Allow me to add His Social/Political/Humanist Platform...

...and it was no more popular then, than now.

"Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to Him, and He began to teach them, saying:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they will be filled.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the sons of God.

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

[Vashta Nerada]

103. Post of the thread.

[tclambert]

10. Because any good religion includes enough ambiguity in its holy text to allow crazy interpretations

Add a few generations of bad translations, find a few "holy" men who will preach whatever the highest bidder likes, and pretty soon you can turn a religion of love and mercy into one of hate and revenge.

[CoffeeCat]

12. Right-wing leaders are the most vile, evil scum in this country...

Does anyone actually believe that the warmongering neocon faction of the Republican party loves Jesus and prays nightly? These people are murderous, lying thugs who salivate at the thought of going to war where untold numbers of innocents die. And they'll lie their way into a war, for the sole purpose of enriching themselves and their cocktail-party-circuit cohorts.

These people are psychopaths. Religions is merely a device that they use to cull votes from idiots.

Not all religious people are idiots. Some of them are well meaning. Many of them just want to be decent human beings and religion is comforting to them.

However, many of these religious people--who spout off Glenn Beck and wallow in Limbaugh's vitriol--are the planet's most ignorant fools. Talk radio tells them that they are smarter than everyone else and better than everyone else. Better family values. Better morals. So much more than those dirty, hippie liberals who hate liberty! When you're ignorant, and your big daddy on the radio is telling you that you are special--when all you've been is an ignorant oaf all of your life--that's powerful and its addictive.

Right-wing extremists and the neocon faction uses talk radio to brainwash these "Christians" into cheerleading for their evil. So, they get to invade countries and murder people, starve the poor, cut off the heating to the elderly who live off of $600 a month, destroy the planet by denying global climate change and deny people the basic dignity of healthcare. The neocons and extremists get to do this because they've managed to bamboozle the idiot contingent into going along with all of these obviously anti-Christian debacles/ideas.

Furthermore, most of these talk-radio listeners are middle class or lower-middle class. Yet, they will argue until their blue in the face against their own interests. They'll fight to the death for tax breaks for the 1 percent and they'll practically pass out telling you that the banks need further deregulation. And don't forget--Unions are HORRIBLE! Organizations that work to help middle-class folks and hard-working Americans--are to be feared and dismantled. And they happily carry these banners for the one percent like herded cattle.

It's fucking INSANE! These people have been brainwashed into accepting the agenda of the elite. Talk radio has convinced them that they're smart, moral, "better" people if they will only accept this radical right-wing agenda. And look at what the hell has happened to our country.

Right-wing neocons and elites are not religious. They USE religion like a used car salesman uses sales pitches. Those leaders have absolutely no respect for the minions that they know they have bamboozled like useful idiots. It's really disgusting and sad to watch this process. It's like watching a raging, dysfunctional alcoholic family leader abuse several million family members who have become in-denial, codependent, sick zombies who can no longer think for themselves.

This is the biggest challenge our country faces, in my opinion.

[onlyadream]

13. Great post ^^^^

[zeemike]

19. "They USE religion like a used car salesman uses sales pitches."

That is absolutely correct...in their hearts they are atheist of the Ayn Rand mold or Mammon worshipers.

[CanonRay]

42. You've got that right

[raccoon]

67. Consider using this post as an OP. nt

[steve2470]

78. agreed nt

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

92. Amen!

[TxDemChem]

14. They follow Amerigod...

A completely different take on Christianity

[penndragon69]

15. Most ATHEISTS are better cHristians than

many of the "TRUE" believers.

Born again MY ASS.....maybe renewed ASSHOLES.

[Prophet 451]

16. Because Christianity in the west has become entwined with capitalism

Note before I go any further: There are still good Christians around. I was raised by one of them and I've had the pleasure of meeting a few more so nothing I say should be taken as an indictment of all Christians.

Now, I think two things have happened. Firstly, fundementalism. Fundementalism is essentially simply a revenge fantasy that proposes the greatest pleasure of heaven is watching those sinners who disagreed with you burning in hell. And fundementalism has become the public face of Christianity. Not because they're the majority but because the media has certain biases and while they don't have liberal bias, they do have a sensationalism bias. Pat Robertson saying something outrageous makes for better copy than John Jones collecting blankets for the homeless. Fundementalism is the device that allows the fundie to feel superior to others.

Secondly, capitalism. If you actually read the Bible, what little Jesus said about economics was closest to a kind of proto-socialism but Christianity in the western world has become totally entwined with capitalism. "SOCIALIST!" is now screamed in much the same tones as "WITCH!", capitalism is now held up as sacred writ and anything that disagrees with that is denounced as satanic. I'm not sure how this happened but my guess is that it was a result of the Cold War, that because the USSR was both communist and atheist (in theory, anyway), Christianity and capitalism became merged in opposition to them. Back in the Eighties, I can remember my grandmother complaining that society was too materialist. These days, the whole edifice of conservative Christianity is based on materialism. These people don't want the kingdom of god, they want to inherit the earth.

[handmade34]

17. partly... "Prosperity Theology"

religion has always been a means to explain unknowns to the masses and an excuse for the PTB... Prosperity Theology had its beginnings about 50 years ago and although in some circles the 'prosperity' is important to helping the less fortunate... more and more it is about the individual becoming wealthy through 'faith'... in other words... if you're poor, ya ain't religious enough

The Neo-Pentecostal movement has been characterized in part by an emphasis on prosperity theology, which gained greater acceptance within charismatic Christianity during the late 1990s. By 2006, three of the four largest congregations in the United States were teaching prosperity theology, and Joel Osteen has been credited with spreading it outside of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement through his books, which have sold over 4 million copies. Bruce Wilkinson's The Prayer of Jabez also sold millions of copies and invited readers to seek prosperity... A 2006 poll by Time reported that 17 percent of Christians in America said they identified with the movement... There is no official governing body for the movement, though many ministries are unofficially linked.
In 2007, U.S. Senator Chuck Grassley opened a probe into the finances of six televangelism ministries that promoted prosperity theology: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, Creflo Dollar Ministries, Benny Hinn Ministries, Bishop Eddie Long Ministries, Joyce Meyer Ministries, and Paula White Ministries. In January 2011, Grassley concluded his investigation stating that he believed self-regulation by religious organizations was preferable to government action. Only the ministries led by Meyer and Hinn cooperated fully with Grassley's investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

[SidDithers]

20. Why do so many believe...

that the behaviour exhibited by these Christians is un-Christian?

There are good people who are Christians, and bad people who are Christians. Nice people who are Christians, and assholes who are Christian.

"Christian" as a descriptor isn't synonymous with caring and good. It simply describes someone who subjectively interprets and follows the words ascribed to Christ. Who's to say that it's not the "un-Christian" interpretation that's the correct one, and the supposed "real Christians" who are acting un-Christian?

Sid

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Sid, it is not just 'the words of Christ' that they use as Scipture, if it was we'd all love them.

They rely heavily on the writings of Paul of Tarsus, he's the one who says 'gays are bad and women have to shut up and be subservient'.
Jesus said the way we treat the lowest person in society is how we treat God Almighty. Paul said 'women must not wear nice clothing and can only speak to their husbands and then only in private'.

[Thav]

32. ^^ This

Let's not forget the book of Leviticus either, there's some lovely passages that the right wing loves in there.

RWingers love Paul, his writings fit right into their world view. They really do ignore the Gospels though, as those are about caring for others, compassion, and generosity.

They're not Christians, they're Paulites or Leviticans.

[steve2470]

81. agreed

Jesus, supposedly, said not one word about abortion or gay people. Yet conservative "Christians" are foaming at the mouth on those two topics. They are NOT followers of Christ.

[SidDithers]

34. From the outside looking in...

I'm not convinced that any one type of Christian is any more representative of "true Christianity" than any other type if Christian.

I do bristle, tho, when I see the word "Christian" being equated with good or caring, when many, many Christians are just the opposite.

Sid

[Humanist_Activist]

68. Have you read the Gospels? Jesus has said and done some pretty messed up things...

in it. Its take a highly selective reading of every part of the Bible to create any type of consistent message.

[hrmjustin]

76. What did he do that is messed up?

[Humanist_Activist]

79. Well, first, he reaffirms the whole "Original Sin" theology...

which is just fucked up in itself, indeed I find the whole concept of sin to be very disturbing.

He told his followers to love Him more than even their closest family members, and even to leave them if they will lead you away from Him. (he also said more ambiguous things about this subject, but that's what you get with unreliable narrators).

He makes into sin such emotions as anger, lust, coveting, things we have very little control over, he makes into mindcrimes, just thinking it, even if unbidden, is apparently as bad as doing it.

I could go on, do you want a full list with sources?

Oh, and the whole thing about the only way into heaven is by following him.

[hrmjustin]

84. Well I guess we disagree on the faith.

The faith is based on the fact we all sin. He tells us to banish these things from our heart so we won't commit these sins. He knew that was impossible for us to do completely.

He told his followers to follow him because he was the son of God. God's call is a high calling. I can see how a literal
translation might seem disturbing but I take it as a sign that God's calling is very important and that we are to follow it at all time.

These are just my thoughts. Others believe other things and that is their right. I believe Jesus was the Son of God and came to save us from ourselves. Yes there are many questions that we all have but I believe.

[Humanist_Activist]

85. That is the fundamental disagreement I have, humanity doesn't need saving...

at least not from an outside agency. We are, fundamentally, good, and we are improving ourselves, slowly but surely, we live, right now, in the least violent time in all of human history, and Jesus had nothing to do with it. Its still not great, but we can work to improve it. I'm more interested in building a heaven on earth than wishing for one after I die. To leave the world as a better place for my children, and grandchildren, and everyone else's kids too. That is the highest calling I think any human can strive for, and its infinitely more important than any gods.

[hrmjustin]

86. I understand your viewpoint. I agree we should make this a better place.

I do however think humanity needs saving and I believe Jesus did that. We agree to disagree.

[LostOne4Ever]

95. He also introduced hell didn't he?

Or rather stole the concept of heaven and hell from the Zoroastrians and greeks. Before that point there was not a well defined afterlife for the Jews iirc.

Sorry, but I think that deserved special mention. There are many things Yeshua of Nazareth said that I like (Matthew 7) but for bringing hell and salvation by faith into Christianity, along with the other things you mention I cannot bring myself to overlook or forgive.

To me, the concepts of hell, original sin, and salvation by faith combined are the 3 things that drove me away from religion above all else...and sadly they are all concepts from the new testament.

[Humanist_Activist]

100. Exactly, the gospel writers even borrowed the Greek term for hell, Tartarus...

whether Jesus himself(assuming he existed as portrayed in the gospels) ever actually used that term, chances are good, the religion he came from did not have a concept of hell, but sheol, a place of rest, you could even argue it simply means grave, so technically no afterlife, or if it is one, its more like Hades than Heaven.

Also, the idea that we need salvation at all is rather offensive, whether by works or faith, it presupposes original sin, and that we have a innately sinful nature. Sin itself is problematic, more or less its offenses against God, given that I don't believe in him, I find the idea just ridiculous.

[LostOne4Ever]

94. Im an atheist but...

...when I argue with right wing nuts I have a great love of quoting the Gospels against them. I especially love telling them Jesus never said one word against homosexuality and quoting Matthew 7.

Inevitably, they will try and prove me wrong by quoting the bible back at me. The dumb ones use the old testament and i tear them apart on that not being jesus and reminding them what it says of lobsters, clothing, and how they should be sentenced to death for working on the Sabbath.

The smart ones inevitably go for the Epistles. My favorite strategy for dealing with them is tell them that not Jesus, BUT RATHER THE MAN WHO SPENT A MAJORITY OF HIS LIFE PERSECUTING JESUS AND HIS FOLLOWERS!!!

That always flusters them.

[Vashta Nerada]

104. Are you really asking this question?

"Christian" IS a descriptor that's supposed to be synonymous with caring and good. Ever read the New Testament? The Jesus depicted there and the Jesus depicted by right wingers are nowhere close.

[intaglio]

21. Partly it is because the Bible can be used to support any position

Left wing or right wing, egalitarian or oppressive.

Right to bear arms? Check Matthew's account of the Last Supper
Subjugation of women? Timothy and many other Pauline (or Pseudo-Pauline) epistles.
Love thy neighbour? The Beatitudes.
Forgiveness? Some of the teachings ascribed to Jesus (though most if not all are from earlier teachings and philosophies).
Quiescence in the face of dictatorship? Remember to render unto Caesar and again the epistles
Torture as punishment? Revelation and the Crucifixion - also neither Jesus nor Paul never condemned capital punishment.

But democracy, trial by jury, condemnation of slavery, condemnation of what we now call war crimes? Forget it.


*** Disclaimer, I am an atheist who believes that all faiths are equally unworthy of membership and it is high time humanity abandoned such magical thinking.

Oh, and this "perplexing behaviour" did not just arise in the 20th Century ...

[zeemike]

22. A good OP and lots of good post in this thread

I wish I could recommend them all.
But as to the origins of this bastardization of the Teachings of Jesus it goes back to the second century where Rome adopted it as the official religion and made it acceptable to Roman law.

But in America it began with the Slavery issue, where the Abolitionist wanted the slave owners to stop what they were doing.
And in our time the civil rights movement moved it further and they adopted the Prosperity religion.

And as one here said there are still Christians that follow the teachings of Jesus, but they have been silenced by the Prosperity religion who have a big megaphone and those atheist who set them up as examples of Christianity.

I would love it if they stood up and spoke out, and if the atheist supported them, but I suspect the PTB will continue to divide and control the message.

[florida08]

23. because politics has trumped the Bible

Notice they only pick out the verses that fit with their meme. But it's not just them

http://forward.com/articles/179934/the-ignored-jewish-poor/?p=all

[Theyletmeeatcake2]

24. Religions should pay taxes and be more transparent

They have some good rules regarding behaviour towards their fellow man but the way those ultra right loonies grab anything that suits their view and plugs it...very rarely hear about Jesus casting the merchants out of the temple....wonder why..sounds so socialist to me lo

[el_bryanto]

25. This subject would fit better in the religion forum

I will point out that our republican friends would point to statistics that show that they give up more of their paychecks to charities (which includes tithes to their churches) - they feel like helping poor people should be the job of individuals, churches, and charitable organizations. They don't think government should be involved.

Now - this displays a startling lack of thought about what the Government is generally trying to do with their donations - what foodstamps for example actually cover. They haven't really grasped what happened with welfare reform. They don't really understand what it is like to be poor or unemployed in America.

Bryant

[Arkansas Granny]

26. Because they are "kristians" not Christians. Kind of like that imitation krab meat.

They may have the same outward appearance, but when you get right down to it, there's a lot of difference.

[cheezmaka]

97. Well put...

The Scriptures call them, "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof...

[Uben]

27. My opinion......

They know as well as I that there is no omnipotent mythical being in the sky. But, it makes them part of a group they can use to sell their wares, socialize with, extort money from, and control by constantly bombarding them with falsehoods. Scruples aren't a part of the republican agenda.....money is!
I was raised in a Christian household, but I have a logic-based brain, and that does not allow me to believe in mythical beings, so....
That said, I have no problem with anyone's beliefs. I think everyone has the right to believe what they want, just like myself. And as long as it does not interfere with other's lives, its fine. But when they start using their beliefs to govern ALL the people, I have serious problems with it! Keep it to yourself. Religion should be private. Remember "separation of church and state"? Our forefathers understood, thankfully, but there are a lot of people who wish to thrust their beliefs on others and deny them their own beliefs. That is seriously wrong!

[OnionPatch]

29. I've heard them argue

it's not that they don't want to help poor people, they just don't think the government should force you to help poor people. But Jesus never said anything like "only the churches" should help poor people. Or "you should only help the poor if you happen to feel really generous...."

You would think a true Christian, someone who really, honestly cares about helping others, would be thrilled when society gets together and pools their resources to truly help the poor, whether it's through the government or some other way. What does it matter? Would Jesus really care whether the help came from a church or the government? They keep saying they want a "Christian nation", so it's just the most silly, lame argument I've ever heard. Downright pathetic. Another one told me Jesus only expects you to give 10% but I have never read the passage where Jesus said "Oh, I've already gave 10% of my help, so I'm not going to cure this leper." Conservative Christians really ought to take a long, hard look at themselves in the mirror.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

87. They ignore the fact that in Jesus' day, Jewish law required people to save part of their crops

for the poor. Required. It was a tax.

[jsr]

30. Because they have been 'saved', their VIP seats in heaven are secure

so they can act like assholes, because everything is always forgiven.

[iandhr]

31. As Gandhi said

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[steve2470]

82. perfectly stated nt

[fitman]

33. One of my clients

is very religious..wears Christianity on his sleeve..says the prayer at the local T-party rally..after every 708 sentances say's "Praise the Lord" or some other line...you know the type. Saw him one day and he said he had two "darkies" from the Workers Comp in his office...

Some Christian are fine but many not so much..

[Nine]

35. I'm in Ohio and I got one phone call regarding the food stamps issue.

It was a robo-call that went to my answering machine (yes, I'm ancient). I don't remember the name of the group but they had "Faith" in their name and the intro was something like: I'm John Doe from the blah blah Faith blah blah with an important message about a moral imperative...

Now, I get calls from both left and right wing groups. When I heard "faith" and "moral imperative" I was bracing to hear a right-wing message. Although I have often condemned the anti-religion bigotry I hear on DU from some quarters, I won't pretend that I don't "get it" - the right-wing Christian bloc is big and noisy. So I was pleasantly surprised to hear the rest of the message, which was against the cutting of food stamps.

I'm kind of in a weird position with religion. If I had a Facebook status for it, it would be, "It's complicated." I attend church (ELCA) and am actually pretty involved in it, but a very strict analysis of my beliefs might not identify me as a Christian at all. Yet I'm definitely not an atheist, and agnostic isn't really a great descriptor either. So what? I don't need a label. I go to church because it works for me. It gives me a "village." We're not hurting anyone. We have more variety of people than I would meet in a workplace setting or social club - we have all different ages, different income levels, different political beliefs, different educational levels. Even our religious beliefs and backgrounds vary widely. And I think it makes me a better person to have a village like that with people I might not otherwise interact with.

When I hear these sweeping generalizations about religion and Christianity, it just makes me roll my eyes. Honestly it sounds like some self-satisfied kid who's just discovered Ayn Rand or some equally obnoxious left-wing foolishness. I can promise you that even the right-wingers at my church are not sitting around plotting world destruction, oppression of the masses, or the downfall of science. Most people are too busy doing social services like running the food pantry for the poor. The pastor lives in a modest house near the church, not a mansion. His sermons are not about gays or creationism or the subjugation of women or anything else some of you think is all Christians think about.

I'm not saying all this because Christians need your approval. I'm saying it because the Democratic Party needs all the people it can get. There are plenty of Christians, cops, business executives, Walmart shoppers, hunters, and other groups who can and should be on our side, as long as we don't drive them away with the constant bashing that accomplishes nothing but making someone feel superior.

[truebluegreen]

36. There's a guy I know named Bubba (I kid you not).

He's Catholic, very devout--according to him. Mid to late-60s, lives in Alabama. He's a racist (but overt racism is not as bad as what they do up North), a sexist, hates and fears and demeans liberals (goes from calling them libtards to pointing out that conservatives are the ones with guns) and so on. Hates Obama (remember that email with Obama dressed as a witchdoctor?). Loves Sarah Palin. Thinks Newt Gingrich is the smartest guy in the party (don't know if he still thinks that after the campaign; haven't corresponded for a while).

As I said, he considers himself a devout, practicing Christian who has malice toward none, loves all, etc. But oddly he has a very low familiarity with the Bible or with what Jesus Said. Even more oddly, he has made statements about "2000 years of Revelation" and is a devoted follower of Ayn Rand.

The ability to reconcile all those positions requires mental gymnastics beyond my comprehension.

[Xyzse]

44. Not really, he only has to think one thing.

"My position is right and I don't care what others think. I believe!!!!"

They don't even have to rationalize it, since they don't care.

[Uncle Joe]

61. It's because they place preeminent importance on Jesus' Resurrection vs Jesus' teachings in life.

That's the preeminent if not only thing that matters to them, it's basically a get out of Hell free card, so long as you believe.

The teachings that Jesus conveyed are all but ignored, coopted or twisted to suit self-beliefs regarding political philosophy.

[Xyzse]

62. It sucks. It is why I tend to dislike any one who openly goes on and on about their religion.

It makes it hard to trust them.

[Uncle Joe]

63. I remember one of them telling me, if Jesus hadn't rose from the dead, nothing would've mattered

because he was a fraud.

So to many of them rising from the dead was game, set and match.

The irony is, if they truly believed Jesus rose from the dead, and was the son of God, having intimate connection to the almighty, how could they not place mega-importance on his teachings while living among the people?

Would Jesus' teachings not also have come from God as changes, updates, or addendums to the more hard line Old Testament?

[Xyzse]

64. Agreed.

I mean, I am raised Catholic, but I generally just prefer those that keep their beliefs to themselves unless specifically asked. There is a time and place for such things.

Also, it shouldn't be used for any sort of debate.
---------------

Supposedly, they think they are placing mega-importance on his teachings. They just select what they want and justify everything else.

[Populist_Prole]

49. I know people EXACTLY like that: Here's the reason they are like they are

Some are relatives, some are friends, some are coworkers. I've known them long enough to "smoke out" their opinions through normal conversation.

As to why they claim to be good people while being full of hatred; It all comes down to this: It's not really a matter of what you do or how you act to others. It's all about the devoutness of their belief; their faith.

[truebluegreen]

58. I agree. And as a non-believer, that points at a lot of what I think is wrong

with Christianity as practiced: "Believing" seems to be a get-out-of-jail-free card. Look at Gingrich. Three wives, multiple overlapping affairs--but it's all good 'cause he completed his conversion to Catholicism in time to run for office in 2009. Nothing to see here; move along.

[Populist_Prole]

91. They really do treat faith like a get-out-of-jail-free card

I floated an idea with some like minded people, and I put it this way;

Eliminate the ability to have a confession with a priest. This would then provide incentive not to be an asshole in the first place. As is now, too many I know use the ability to confess as carte blanche to be a jerk all week long.

[dawg]

37. The dominant religion of any society tends to become a tool for oppression, regardless ...

of the actual underlying merits of that religion.

The Christian religion is named after a man who taught that sacrificing one's own wants for the needs of others was the best way to get closer to God. But that same religion is now being used to justify the selfish protection of privilege. And the same would be true of whatever religion happened to be the dominant one in a society. Look how Saudi Arabia uses Islam to oppress women. See how Hinduism has been used to oppress people within the caste system (and also used to oppress the Muslim minority).

Ultimately, the fault doesn't lie with religion at all. The problem lies with the power-elite and their willingness to use any means at hand to oppress those on the outside of their circle of power.

[XemaSab]

38. Short answer:

A lot of Christians believe strongly in the separation of church and state, and they believe that charity should be the responsibility of the church.

[CrispyQ]

39. The problem is the dumbed-down voters, not the politicians.

I expect politicians to be twisty, lying fucks. The the problem is the public.

Well, as stupid as he sounds, it’s the rational choice. Being considered a Christian means you get a lot of unearned esteem from the public, and you’re given a lot more benefit of the doubt than if you claimed to be, say, an atheist. Indeed, for many audiences, it’s better to sound like an idiot while claiming to be Christian than to sound intelligent without mentioning religion at all.

Some days I question having a means test for voting. Maybe you should have to pass an elementary test about government before you are issued your ballot. Just venting. What we really need is to get money out of politics, limit the time of campaigning to just a few weeks before the election. From the first day our representatives get in office, they start campaigning for money to stay in office.

People say, "I don't want my taxes to pay for political campaigns." Guess what? They already are, in excess!! The wages & benefits that we pay our representatives, are essentially paying for them to campaign/live large, 24x7, on our dime, while neglecting the business of governing.

[raouldukelives]

40. I think they are just fulfilling scripture.

If the love of money is the root of all evil they are doing their best to prove it.

[treestar]

41. They will say it is the community and not the government

that should do so, though I don't see that Christ said there was anything wrong with the government doing it.

And they never respond when you point out that didn't work, (in the 19th century) or the government would never have gotten involved in the first place.

With the government, there is some mechanism that it has to treat all equally. With their charity, they can use it to affect behavior, refusing to help those they adjudge not worthy, white, heterosexual, etc. Just like the wealthy grandparent who uses the $$ to demand certain behaviors from descendants. It's about control.

[JNelson6563]

43. First off, points for author's

use of "parsimonious" in a sentence.

Secondly I have to wonder how many of these Christians you refer to actually believe at all.

Julie

[Zorra]

45. All RW religious people are deluded/deranged to some degree. Some are more dangerous than others.

Doesn't matter what religion they are.

It's always been that way; even the Christian Bible says it ~

"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen." ~ John 4:20

[xchrom]

46. +1 -- being raised 'churched' it wasn't difficult -- there weren't added hoops to jump through

like being 'born again'.

preachers didn't rail on and on about sin -- very little in fact.

it was however

feed the hungry

clothe the naked

reach out to the prisoner

comfort the widow and care for the orphan

[libodem]

66. Best Chapter snd Verse, evah

Great message better number.

[grantcart]

47. Because they don't really believe that an empty tomb was the

result of a celestial event.

[Egalitarian Thug]

48. I think the facts of history undermine your premise of what is "Christian".

Religious people tend to want to debate the Bible, clearly an exercise in futility given the behavior of most of its followers for going on two millennia, coupled with the fact that The Church(es) have never, ever lived up to or followed the directives of Jesus.

If you look at this book and consider it in toto, it is pretty clear that Christianity's architects didn't care too much for what the guy that it is supposed to be based on had to say about anything. The religious have been better and worse at various times within this period, but it has consistently inspired this kind of behavior in its adherents.

So you see, these Christians are being quite typically Christian.

Personally, I think the real problem with Christianity is that "ultimate get out of jail free" card that it sells.

[Initech]

50. Ugh Jon Stewart showing all the Christian right wingers justifying cutting food stamps made me sick.

[appleannie1]

51. They have been brainwashed by money hungry mega ministers. They are no more Christian

than the Donald Trumps of this world. They just don't know it.

[Dash87]

52. Because these are "selfish" Christians.

They only go to church because they want to get into heaven. They also feel emboldened to be jerks the entire week because they go to church on Sunday. They feel like mass is a "soul-cleanser."

They're also so self-righteous that everybody around them that they don't like is probably going to hell. In their own delusional worlds, the Christian thing to do is to hate everybody who isn't the exact same religion as they are.

Also, if good things happen to them, they deserve it because God loves them. If bad things happen to others, they deserve it because they must have angered God.

Let's be honest - God might exist, but God as most Christians think of him doesn't exist. Do you really think there's a man that sits up there and watches everything you do and then judges you for it? That's a little creepy. It's even weirder (but predictable) that humans assign God the traits of a petty, jealous, rage-filled human.

God is the embodiment of humanity - the Christian idea of god encompasses the good and bad of humanity. The Bible is do obviously a collection of ancient folk tales, imo, but I have no problem with Christians.

Worship who or what you want to worship. I personally worship the idea of logic above faith, but also inner strength and compassion towards others.

[Populist_Prole]

89. Bingo!

The first sentence within your post nailed it perfectly, though the rest was pithy as well. Damn they're so delusional.

[libodem]

54. Pffft

Jesus was a rich guy. And he went around spouting 'Judge not, lest ye be judged. And, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And, As I have loved you, love one another".
You know, all those current Repulsive behaviors. You know the repukes own God. They bought him. Cuz, they said so.

We are just heathen pagans to them, who deserve one more kick in the teeth as we're going down. Because that is Supply Side Jesus. Rebranded remade.in the image of judge everyone, treat them shitty, and hate their guts. Oh, yeah,


Christ was a carpenter. He would have been....UNION.

[xfundy]

55. Jesus was a liberal Jew.

Churches have become social clubs and echo chambers for cancervative memes. The congregations are assured they're "the good ones." The only "love" in most of them is the love of power and sense of superiority.

[Tikki]

56. Started under reagan...greed and god got aligned in many churches...

As a non-christian..I stood back and watched..no judgment, just watched as many turned into
glen beck with all the fierceness of a hungry animal on the hunt.

I know a person whose whole christian thing is to try to turn the jewish into christians.



Tikki

[Demo_Chris]

57. They are precisely Christian and acting in accordance with their beliefs..

The discrepancy is between what they would prefer you believe they to be and what they actually are. This applies equally to all religions, but then what can you expect?

[hrmjustin]

59. Jesus was very clear about helping the poor. It is heartbreaking that they are giving us a bad name.

[steve2470]

73. amen brotha ! nt

[LostOne4Ever]

96. I will give the man that.

I really like him better than the god of the old testament. I love his focus on the poor and loving everyone. I love his comments on turning the other cheek, not judging, and the golden rule (though others said it first).

If not for a few things mentioned above, he could have been one of my favorite philosophers.

[MisterP]

60. US individualism + US nativism + DIY splittism + Darbyist British Israelism

even creationism/anti-selection used to be just "conservative" in the 20s, then becoming hard-right starting in the 60s (when the Discovery Institute was)
The Doobie Brothers and Godspell made religion cool again (in the 60s it was seen either as 1) All-American or 2) a passing fad); the Reagan Revolution brought Falwell and Robertson and Moon and their laughable theologies into politics starting in the late 70s, crawling out of the backwoods or from Norfolk suburbs: evangelicalism took a sharp right (i.e., the hippies got purged)
they may hate 'em now, but the Adventist and Jehovah's Witness positions around the 10s were exactly what the post-1972 fundies (e.g., Chick) believe today
combine all this with conservative and reactionary strains that appear in any structure (e.g., the most RW US bishops' alliance with the fundies after 1990), a shallowing of culture and discussion, and the 70s' atmosphere of contrarianism and anything-goes (once the whitecoats lost their unquestionable status in the 60s--what with Dow losing Vietnam, the unexpected persistence of hunger, plutonium-eating contests, housewives being prescribed Chesterfields) and you get an intersection of conservatism and amateurism that'd make Augustine and Aquinas hurl
and recall that all these moving parts--fundie, conservative, nativist, right-libertarian, messianic-corporatist, Cold-Warrior, military-industrialist, Islamophobic--are operating under the rubric of the RW and under guidance and control of a web of connected high-rollers: the rise of the Libertarian Party, think tanks, an aggressive and anti-green/greenwashing "expertise industry," the Culture Wars, the negation of the Church Committee, Iran-Contra, and the Religious Right are hardly natural outgrowths that all just happened to pop up in the late 70s: Sheldon Rampton has documented the hands behind all of these: more than that, their increasing dominance and volume in public discourse since 1979 heralded the start of neoliberalism--a very hegemonic system of what's acceptable, redefining "freedom" and "famine" and "recession" and whatnot

[indepat]

65. Surely my Congressman is among the ranks of the most hypocritical bible-thumpers, those

who piously spout the name of Jesus while espousing wholly un-Christian-like policies and principles.

[alarimer]

69. Because being "Christian" gives them cover for being assholes.

They can do whatever they want because they are "forgiven."

Besides, believing in an invisible sky fairy doesn't make you better than anyone else, though they seem to think it does.

I think "Jesus was a Capricorn" sums it nicely.

Jesus was a Capricorn, he ate organic foods.
He believed in love and peace and never wore no shoes.
Long hair, beard and sandals and a funky bunch of friends.
Reckon they'd just nail him up if He come down again.

'Cos everybody's got to have somebody to look down on.
Who they can feel better than at anytime they please.
Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on.
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me.

Get back, John!

Egg Head's cussin Red Neck's cussin' hippies for their hair.
Others laugh at straights who laugh at freaks who laugh at squares.
Some folks hate the whites who hate the blacks who hate the clan.
Most of us hate anything that we don't understand.

'Cos everybody's got to have somebody to look down on.
Who they can feel better than at anytime they please.
Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on.
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me.

Help yourself, brother.
Help yourself, Gentlemen.
Help yourself Reverend.

[Humanist_Activist]

70. So only Christians can be charitable and moral? That's the implication of the language used here.

By the way, how does one "Act Christian"?

[xchrom]

71. well -- you have to be a particular kind of christian -- their war is as much with me{or maybe more}

as a christian as it is with any one else.

not unlike the internal war that broke out with catholics after vatican 2.

[Humanist_Activist]

74. That was not what I was talking about, what makes Christian that act Christian....

(according to you), more moral than Non-Christians?

[steve2470]

72. simple answer: Because it's so f*****g hard to behave as one

Then you have the problem of your exact interpretation of the Bible. I am an extremely liberal Christian, one step away from an atheist, if you will. I still believe, though.

Exhibit A of how hard it is: Someone has done you wrong, very badly wrong. You are supposed to forgive them. Not easy, eh ?

[Humanist_Activist]

75. Really? So do Christians behave more morally than Non-Christians? n/t

[steve2470]

77. I never said or implied that......not looking for a fight here....bye nt

[Humanist_Activist]

80. You said its difficult to behave like a Christian, what did you mean by that? n/t

[JEFF9K]

83. I like to tell "Rapture Republicans" that they aren't real Christians ...

... and that many of their beliefs were invented in the 1800s by John Nelson Darby.

[Skip Intro]

88. Why do some use a few bad apples to taint multitudes of good and honest people? n/t

Do we have to trash billions of people around the world to attack a few repubs?

[LaydeeBug]

90. k&r on the title alone. A-MEN!!! nt

[FUMCSDLCBDPOS]

93. Because it is who they really are as a person and religion gives them the cover to justify

their selfish actions. It is very easy to be a selfish prick when millions of others think and believe like you do and all use the invisible sky beings to justify their hate.

[DirkGently]

98. That element of political-religious rhetoric is about

... cultural supremacy, not morality, ethics, philosophy or theology. It's almost funny seeing the religious right try to turn the suspiciously Far Eastern philosophy of its Middle-Eastern deity into a license to destroy knowledge, fair play, and ethical treatment, given the core teaching of Jesus was a call for empathy -- "Do unto others ..."

Almost funny, that is.

"We are the ___ people, and this world belongs to us."

Being "The Chosen Ones" is one of the most specious elements of religious culture. It's essentially one culture telling itself it's the only one that matters, because an invisible Authority Figure says so.

It's so incredibly inane and childish it almost cannot be argued with. But it's easy to see the attraction. "American exceptionalism" is the latest incarnation of the same conceit of entitlement and inherent superiority based not actions or reason or results, but on mere identity.

"We are superior because we are US."

[AnotherMcIntosh]

101. There is not a uniform type of Christian. Some are influenced to smite their enemies and call upon

God to do so.

Their hatred, when expressed, results in an adrenaline rush.

The adrenaline rush doesn't last for long so those who want to experience it again have to repeat their display of hatred.

[hamsterjill]

102. Selfishness and a lack of empathy

Simply put, the leaders of the mega churches, who are massively wealthy, have to justify to their congregations why it is okay for them to be so wealthy. So they pick and choose scripture and twist scripture's meaning to do that.

The majority of the members of the congregations are too "dumbed down" to try to think for themselves, so the wealthy pastors do the "thinking" for them.

Then...any members of the congregation who might say, "wait a minute..." are attacked and threatened to be ostracized. Most of even the thinking ones have a strong need to belong rather than to rebel.

Thus, the cycle is born and continues.

My own disclaimer: I am a Christian who believes that Jesus wants me to help my fellow man, my planet, and living things in general. I do not consider myself one if those that I describe above. My goal while I live on this earth is simple. To just put a little good back into the world. I try to do a little something every day toward that goal.

Jesus was not about hate. And ANYONE promoting hate under the name of Jesus is simply wrong.

[Sparkly]

105. Jesus was a total Socialist.

I've noticed there are sects cropping up, loosely tied to -- or borrowing the names of -- established, traditional Christian denominations. At least one believes salvation is given by "grace" and not "deeds." So all they have to do is say they believe in Jesus Christ, and then they can act like complete asshats. (And they do.)

[maced666]

106. Rules are not enforced among those that create them.

Nice gig if you can get it!

[gopiscrap]

108. welcome to DU

[spanone]

107. because they have no concept of what the root of christianity is. they use religion for politics.

jesus would throw republican/teapartiers out of the temple

[99Forever]

110. Why?

Because religion, all religion, is a bullshit way to control stupid people. And it works.