Children and Guns: The Hidden Toll

[onehandle]

The .45-caliber pistol that killed Lucas Heagren, 3, on Memorial Day last year at his Ohio home had been temporarily hidden under the couch by his father. But Lucas found it and shot himself through the right eye. “It’s bad,” his mother told the 911 dispatcher. “It’s really bad.”

A few days later in Georgia, Cassie Culpepper, 11, was riding in the back of a pickup with her 12-year-old brother and two other children. Her brother started playing with a pistol his father had lent him to scare coyotes. Believing he had removed all the bullets, he pointed the pistol at his sister and squeezed the trigger. It fired, and blood poured from Cassie’s mouth.

Just a few weeks earlier, in Houston, a group of youths found a Glock pistol in an apartment closet while searching for snack money. A 15-year-old boy was handling the gun when it went off. Alex Whitfield, who had just turned 11, was struck. A relative found the bullet in his ashes from the funeral home.

Cases like these are among the most gut-wrenching of gun deaths. Children shot accidentally — usually by other children — are collateral casualties of the accessibility of guns in America, their deaths all the more devastating for being eminently preventable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/us/children-and-guns-the-hidden-toll.html

This Is A Science Proven Fact: Less Guns = Less Deaths

Science and Math deniers are killing our children.

[Mortpes]

1. Child Safety

Any death of a child is a tragedy. When I checked the CDC site, I saw that gun deaths were not the primary causes of death in children. There are many risks in a child's life and there are many steps a parent can take to help keep children safe. Please visit this site and search the many cause of death and what you can do today. Do you know that if your child sits in the backseat next to a window vs the center of the back seat the risk of death is much greater? Falls or things falling on a child also rate high in the list.

[onehandle]

2. Really?

[Duckhunter935]

7. Proper firearm storage and training

is a must. all new firearms come with free locks and should be used. We have done good in the drop in other areas and we need to work on prevention of gun related deaths. Most are easily preventable by securing weapons or with proper age appropriate training. See a gun do not touch, get an adult.

"Child injuries* are preventable, yet more than 9,000 children died from injuries in the US in 2009. Car crashes, suffocation, drowning, poisoning, fires, and falls are some of the most common ways children are hurt or killed. The number of children dying from injury dropped nearly 30% over the last decade. However, injury is still the number 1 cause of death among children. More can be done to keep our children safe."

http://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/childinjury/?s_cid=bb-vitalsigns-121


http://www.cdc.gov/VitalSigns/pdf/2012-04-vitalsigns.pdf

[Turbineguy]

27. It never matters that people are shot or suffer.

It's an interesting and unusual religion, this gun culture.

[rbixby]

3. Seems like leaving a loaded gun laying around

Is just asking for disaster too. Nice deflection though

[surrealAmerican]

4. Are you seriously suggesting ...

... that we should only concern ourselves with the "primary" (I assume you mean most frequent) cause of death, and ignore any others? I guess that means we should no longer bother vaccinating our children either, since they are more likely to die in car accidents than of preventable infectious diseases.

[Heather MC]

5. You can't regulate if a child trips and falls but

We can certainly attempt to do a better job of protecting children from weapons if we are as intelligent as we pretend to be.

[DanTex]

17. LOL. NRA talking point #14: people sometimes die of other stuff besides guns!

[IveWornAHundredPants]

6. But I was told a popgun in the house makes you safer.

This article seems to contradict that assertion - now I'm not sure what to think.

[Taitertots]

8. We live in the most peaceful era in all human history

INCLUDING BEFORE GUNS WERE INVENTED!!!

But, but, but.... Won't someone Please think of the children.

[onehandle]

9. Long Hard Steel > People

Got it.

[Taitertots]

10. Rational Thought > Irrational Fear

[Lizzie Poppet]

33. *golf clap*

[IveWornAHundredPants]

11. So we've hit some kind of safety plateau

and don't need to try to do any better? Is that it?

[Taitertots]

12. Do you have a statement to make that isn't intellectual dishonesty?

I'll just wait until you do, instead of responding to your straw man non-sense.

[IveWornAHundredPants]

13. I didn't make a statement.

I asked a question.

[Taitertots]

14. Ok. You have made it clear that you have no interest in actually discussing this topic

Welcome to ignore. Intellectually dishonest troll.

[IveWornAHundredPants]

15. Says the guy who argues using Simpsons clips.

[DanTex]

16. We have some 4x higher homicide rate than other comparably wealthy nations.

And yes, the fact that children in the US are at much greater risk of gun violence than they would be in Canada and England is important to many people, though obviously not to you.

Since 30,000 gun deaths per year don't seem to bother you much, are there any issues that you think matter, or do you think the fact that we have a higher standard of living than during the middle ages means we should just quit on any kind of progressive social change.

[Taitertots]

19. Oh, the old "America is the worst when you intentionally exclude every place that is worse" line

of thinking.

"Since 30,000 gun deaths per year don't seem to bother you much, are there any issues that you think matter, or do you think the fact that we have a higher standard of living than during the middle ages means we should just quit on any kind of progressive social change."
First: You are being intentionally misleading when you conflate Murders with Suicide.
Second: The standard of living was much worse (for the vast majority of people) during the middle ages. And you were more likely to die at the hands of another human.
Third: I support progressive social change, not idiotic and misguided attempts to punish law abiding citizens for the misdeeds of a tiny minority. You know, real progressive values.

[DanTex]

20. NRA talking point #17: There's more homicide in Somalia than the US!

Compared to similar countries like, you know, Canada, France, Germany, UK, etc, we have far more gun violence and homicide.

First: You are being intentionally misleading when you conflate Murders with Suicide.

You are being intentionally misleading by accusing me of conflating murders and suicides. Guns contribute to both. The total death toll is 30,000 per year.

Third: I support progressive social change, not idiotic and misguided attempts to punish law abiding citizens for the misdeeds of a tiny minority. You know, real progressive values.

I don't believe you. You don't think it's worth trying to save 30,000 lives a year simply because we're not as unsafe as Somalia and medieval Europe, so why not apply that same logic to everything else?

[Taitertots]

26. The crazy thing is that you actually think excluding every data point that doesn't support your...

opinions is a reasonable way to look at data. Even worse, you think cherry picking the 4 largest disparities is a reasonable way to analyze data.

You are being intentionally misleading by accusing me of conflating murders and suicides. Guns contribute to both. The total death toll is 30,000 per year.

You respond to calls that you are conflating murder with suicide by conflating murder and suicide.

I don't believe you. You don't think it's worth trying to save 30,000 lives a year simply because we're not as unsafe as Somalia and medieval Europe, so why not apply that same logic to everything else?

Your refutation is to just say that I'm lying and throw in a straw man. You are being intellectually dishonest.

[DanTex]

28. The crazy thing is that you actually think that Somalia is a better point of comparison than Canada.

There's a reason why the peer reviewed studies do it my way, and the gun blogs do it your way, and it's not "liberal bias".

You respond to calls that you are conflating murder with suicide by conflating murder and suicide.

I'm pointing out that guns contribute to both. Which is the truth. Evidently you care about neither.

Your refutation is to just say that I'm lying and throw in a straw man. You are being intellectually dishonest.

I'm pointing out that your views on guns are inconsistent with your claimed views on other issues. Either you are lying, or else you are irrational. I can't say which. Probably a little of both.

[Taitertots]

29. Do you actually think your intellectually dishonest statements support your opinions?

The title is a pathetic attempt at a straw man

The first line is a false appeal to authority, followed by a ad hominem attack, followed by a straw man.

The second line is a continuation of your attempts to conflate murder and suicide.

Your final statements are nothing but a continuation of your straw man arguments and calling me a liar.


You are being a intellectually dishonest and making it perfectly clear that you have no intentional of rational discourse about the topic. What is wrong with you that you think posting these things actually supports your opinions?

[DanTex]

30. Do you actually think that calling me "intellectually dishonest" over and over is helping your case?

Oh, and sorry, I haven't been impressed by "logic buzzwords" since I turned 13. Dismissing peer reviewed science as an "appeal to authority" is plain ignorance.

It's funny, first you accuse me of intellectual dishonesty for comparing the US to other wealthy nations while omitting places like Somalia, and then you accuse me of a strawman when I point out how silly this is!

Rather than buzzwords and insults, how about trying to make a logical argument as to why the US shouldn't be compared to demographically similar nations like Canada and UK and Germany. Or why the toll of guns shouldn't include both homicides and suicides, both of which have been found in multiple studies to increase significantly with gun availability.

I'm guessing that you're sticking to buzzwords because you're not capable of making a rational argument. Let's see if you prove me right.

[Taitertots]

37. You are dismissing the most fundamental aspects of rational discourse as "logic buzzwords"

I'm not going to argue against your statements if they are fundamentally erroneous. I'll stop calling your statements intellectually dishonest when you stop making intellectually dishonest statements.

You made a coherent point in these statements.
"Rather than buzzwords and insults, how about trying to make a logical argument as to why the US shouldn't be compared to demographically similar nations like Canada and UK and Germany. Or why the toll of guns shouldn't include both homicides and suicides, both of which have been found in multiple studies to increase significantly with gun availability. "
We should not intentionally exclude the vast majority of the data available when trying to draw conclusions about the effects of policies. You are ignoring the vast majority of the available data and cherry picking. It makes your conclusions inherently irrelevant.

You are grouping people who intentionally killed themselves with people who were killed by other people. When discussing the negative effects firearms misuse has on society and the individual; I don't think it is reasonable to group suicides and homicides. Do you think the effect on other people ("Toll&quot is the same from suicides and homicides?

[DanTex]

38. Do you ever wonder why none of your nonsense ever appears in peer reviewed journals?

I mean, seriously, do you really think that internet gun nuts are somehow better at analyzing criminological data than people with scientific training who do this for a living? Outside of the NRA bubble, nobody thinks that comparing apples-to-apples by focusing on wealthy industrialized nations is "cherry-picking". In fact, the opposite is true -- trying to compare US statistics to those in places like Somalia which bears no resemblance whatsoever to the US in order to try and deny the guns/homicide link is cherry-picking.

And this is the case in all matters of public policy -- for example, during the healthcare debates, people would draw comparisons between the US and Canada, Western Europe, etc, all of which have equal or better outcomes with far lower costs. Only an idiot would claim that it is "cherry picking" to not include third-world countries who have single payer systems but where health statistics are worse for obvious reasons.

As for the suicide/homicide thing, again, I'm very aware that suicides and homicides are different things. However, there is extensive evidence that gun availability increases the prevalence of both. In the same way that if I point out that excessive alcohol consumption can lead to both liver damage and also car accidents, that's not the same as saying that liver disease is the same thing as a car accident.

[fitman]

21. Exactly

2013 is the least violent times in world history... I grew up in the 70's and my dad had guns throughout the house either by the fireplace or in the basement as did nearly all my friends dad's.. unlocked and many loaded.

I hate nanny types...and I do not own a gun and have NEVER fired one..no interest.. and can't stand the NRA but accidental gun deaths with children are very low. I'm more concerned about gang bangers having guns and walking down the strete with my wife and being mugged.

[Robb]

18. That gundamentalists discuss these as "acceptable losses"

...says more about them than I ever could.

But still. The psychopathic idolatry for guns is a cancer.

[Duckhunter935]

23. you should really work as hard

on all deaths, not just guns. Are any other causes of death acceptable? Pools, unrestrained children in cars, poison, electrical outlets, bicycles, small toys, plastic bags and I am sure many others. I think parents should be charged in these deaths if negligence is proven. Part of parenting is responsibility in all areas. Child proof your home. All, new guns come with locks and most places will give them away for free. Lock them up out of reach of children just like poisons. There are a lot of things that should be done now with existing tools available.

And NO ANY PREVENTABLE DEATH IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, BY FIREARM OR BY OTHER MEANS.

[The Straight Story]

31. It's not about prevention for some, but personal desire to control others

and the choices they make. When you pick out less than one percent of a group and use them as a reason to pass new laws to control the rest it shows that someone may have a control issue. Someone is doing something they don't approve of, so find ways to shame them and make it more difficult for them own something.

We already have a slew of laws passed to deal with misusing a gun, and for over ninety nice percent of the people out there these laws work just fine - but nope, we need more and more because 0.003% of people die because some human (not their tool) did something wrong.

I think we need to be scared of the jewish defense league myself, they attributed to 7% of terror attacks in the US, not to mention islamic fundies--- fact is, they carry out attacks all over the world, we really should post about islam and terrorism each day until people are so afraid of it they won't let them into starbucks if the person chooses to be muslim. Hell, see them praying outside and call the cops. We can easily divide up all things involving them into 365 days of posting and coverage - and not allow any to positive stories, as is custom here.

You can't build hate when you let all sides discuss something, and you don't want rational discussions so don't post discussions each day, just post things to flame the fans of fear and hate and sit back and watch people recoil in disgust at the group you hate.

[DanTex]

32. Bzzt!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3746857

[Duckhunter935]

35. Bzzt!

true statements that do not fit your narrative are always NRA talking points.

I have never seen the list, can you provide a link please. Please I know you have seen them or have a copy, I do not. Just a link would suffice.

[mopinko]

22. a "this american life" show recently contained a story

about a boy who accidentally shot and killed his brother. so heartbreaking.
it is in act two of this show about harper high school, and place where the kid didn't even really stand out in the crowd.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/487/harper-high-school-part-one

[Jenoch]

24. " A relative found the bullet in his ashes from the funeral home."

Of course people need to keeps guns locked up and away from children. Minnesota has such a law. But hyperbole like finding a bullet in the cremated ashes does not help at all. (Lead melts at around 600 degrees, cremation is done at around 1,800 degrees.)

[onehandle]

25. Melts, but does not vaporize. nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

34. I support mandating secure firearms storage.

Such a legal mandate does not, in my view, constitute an infringement on Second Amendment rights. I consider proper secure storage to be an intrinsic component of responsible exercise of those rights. It shouldn't be optional...

[Duckhunter935]

36. unfortunately

that is not good enough for the banners around here. I agree on safe storage and like the fact that the gun manufacturers now include free locks with most gun purchases.

[jsr]

39. Recommend