Before I am required to accept an apology and grant forgiveness (acording to my Rabbi)

[Kber]

Making up for a "wrong" entails certain obligations on the part of the person who wronged me. Until these elements are in place, I am under no obligation to grant my forgiveness.

1. Recognition - meaning to true recognition of what you have done to harm me. No "if I offended you" bullshit.

2. Restitution - this isn't monitary, but actually making what you did right, as if it never happened. For example, if you steal from me, I want my stuff back. If you physically harm me, you need to make arrangements for my healing. If you damage my repututation, you need to make my reputation whole again. Of course, the restitution part is tricky because you may not be able to totally make things right. This is why the rabbis teach that slander is actually akin to murder in this regard. Just saying.

3. Apology - this comes AFTER recognition and restitution, otherwise its just words.

4. Resolution not to do it again. The first 3 steps are meaningless unless you make a sincere effort not to hurt me again.

Once Mr. Limbaugh follows all 4 steps, I am morally obligated to forgive him. Until then, eat shit and die, asshole.

Sincerely,

kber.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. LOL! :) I agree. nt

[roguevalley]

26. I agree, OP. My rabbi, Jesus, says the same thing.

[PCIntern]

2. It's "Eat shit and die asshole, aw-main." n/t

[Kber]

3. :)

[mindwalker_i]

14. Yup!

And chew it thoroughly.

[KT2000]

4. Spot on!

His "I didn't mean to" does not come close.

[no_hypocrisy]

5. My rabbi also taught that you gain forgiveness through your steps of atonement.

Saying "Sorry" isn't enough.

[nbolick]

6. Very well put. His apology was bullshit.

He made no attempt at the first two things and gave only a slighted, backhanded apology. He is, as Alec would put it, "A festering boil on the anus of public discourse."

[Withywindle]

7. I'm totally with your Rabbi on this one.

I'm sick of fauxpologies being used as a weapon to further bludgeon the victim of an injustice. "He said he was sorry, why can't you forgive him? What's wrong with you? You're meeeean."

Forgiveness is never, EVER obligatory, and it shouldn't come cheap, either.

[HeiressofBickworth]

8. I've always said, forgiveness is highly overrated

Forgiving Mr. Limbaugh would not teach him any ethics nor would it be received by him in any humble way. Forgiving Mr. Limbaugh would not erase the words he used against the young lady. Forgiving him would not erase the hurt and embarrassment he caused her and her family.

So, in this case, the original offense is not worth of forgiveness.

There are just some things that don't deserve forgiveness.

[Kber]

9. Forgiving Mr. Limbaugh after the half measures and half steps taken so far

would be silly, and even bad for him in a way.

However, if he honestly took the journey outlined above, I'd have to rethink, of course. Not that I think it's likely. For now, I am completely comfortable in that I have no obligation to this shit stain what so ever, faux- apology not withstanding.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

10. I agree. Limbaugh's apology was more insult & mockery than an attempt to right a wrong.

There was nothing there that indicated he was accepting fault for a horrible public insult and degradation.

I would never accept an "apology" like that. God - he makes my skin crawl. I do believe he is a sociopath / psychopath.

[etherealtruth]

11. Until then, eat shit and die, asshole

I try to follow your rabbi's counsel in life ... but your "Until then, eat shit and die, asshole," killed me.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

12. She should sue the bastard.

For slander per se. damages in slander per se, are presumed because this is the most egregious form of slander, and the damages do not have to be proven.

There are four categories of slander per se and the one that applies here is "imputation of unchastity in a woman".

There is a phrase in civil law, that in a lawsuit, that the "plaintiff be made whole again" as much as is possible. So you have the right idea.

[jwirr]

13. Thank you. That is the best religious lesson I have had in a long time. And your Rabbi is right.

[zeemike]

15. Your Rabbi is spot on.

Restitution is the hardest part but absolutely essential for forgiveness...
And it is such a serious thing because it violate one of the ten commandments....thou shall not bear false witness, which is exactly what he did.
The only way for Limbaugh to make restitution is to get on his program and say he was wrong and tell his audience that he was wrong....that is the minimum he should do.

[DLC_equals_GOP]

16. Unless your Rabbi

is holding a loaded gun to your head, you don't have to do a thing.

[Kber]

17. Technically true, of course

and under such circumstances is meaningless anyway.

[ProSense]

27. Two good things:

1) your OP and 2) the poster you responded to has left the building.

[Kber]

28. :)

[firehorse]

18. yes apologies are bullshit unless there is amends (making right) with action.

good topic

[JayhawkSD]

19. Forgiveness: obligation vs. opportunity

The problem I have with the conditions which impose an obligation to forgive, is that the form of spirituality I follow regards forgivness as an opportunity rather than an obligation. Forgiveness is something that I do for me rather than for the offender, because forgiveness removes a burden from me. It removes from me the anger, and hatred, and sense of loss. It restores me to wholeness. It puts me back into control of my own life in every dimension of living.

I know this to be true. I was once wronged by my best and closest friend. It was a promise not kept, a promise on which I had based many years of effort and contribution and, not only was it not kept but in the breaking of the promise there was dishonesty and deception and personal affront. In time I forgave that person even though he never did any one of the things you list as the requirements for forgiveness. I forgave him because I was tired of being angry and carrying a sense of hurt and a feeling of being damaged.

Today I wish him well. I percieve today that he had no intent to harm me, that he was being compelled by his own fears and that I merely happened to be in the line of fire. I see his place of business and see it doing well and I am happy for him. My life is immeasurably improved. I am a free man.

Like prayer, which benefits the person who prays, forgiveness benefits the person who forgives.

[Kber]

23. I agree with you that forgiveness is as much for the wronged party as anyone else

You were not obligated to forgive, but did for your own sake and soul.

I think the point I'm trying to make here is that I'm not obligated to forgive just because someone offers an apology.

On a more serious note, Elie Weisel tells of being ushered into a Nazi officer's tent prior to the end of the war. The officer was wounded and knew death was close. He asked Weisel to forgive him and Weisel told him to go to hell. He's written about it later and has decided that since the officer was actually still actively engaged in the activity for which he was seeking forgiveness, that to grant it was absurd at the time and he's not all that keen on granting it now either. Different people (my grandfather, for example) suffered similarly and came to different conclusions. It's a very personal journey.

Forgiveness or the withholding there of is a serious ethical question and deserves serious and respectful consideration.

That said, as things currently stand, Mr. Limbaugh can still eat shit and die.

Peace.

[snagglepuss]

20. Hear Hear.

K and R

[NNN0LHI]

21. I really like this method. Bookmarking for reference

[texshelters]

22. Well put!

Although I fit in the "atheist" camp, most religions can teach us something, and that is evident with Judaism in the case of forgiveness.

Thanks!

Buddhist would also discuss harm done to others and how much Karma you would have to purify in this way:

1. Was it intentional? (accidental harm, less "bad" Karma) Rush did it intentionally, it wasn't a slip of the tongue.
2. Is it likely to be done again? (Limbaugh is a repeat sexist offender)
3. Did we gain from the harm caused another, i.e. did we gain financially or personally in some way. In this way, Mr. Limbaugh got some instance Karma by losing advertisers.

(Yes, it's oversimplified, and I am but a novice)

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Colorado Liberal]

24. The people who post here are brilliant

I mean, where else could I find a post that would be both educational AND satisfying? (Seriously, I had no idea about the 4 steps)

[Kber]

25. Aww. I love DU too.

and thanks!

[jonthebru]

29. I feel the last line is an appropriate restitution.