I'm Sorry... But For Some Reason... I Cannot Dance On DFK's Grave...

[WillyT]

Bad form and all...

Plus the sensitive pettiness of it all.

[Xipe Totec]

1. +1

I respect the decision. I understand the decision, I support the decision.


But I cannot celebrate the decision.

[JI7]

2. fuck dfk

right wing asshole troll

[WillyT]

3. Yeah... Some Of Us Get A Lot Of That...

And I DO NOT appreciate a Lynch Mob.

Buck up!

[JI7]

4. considering some of the stuff you post

didn't you post something once making fun of prosense for making a long post ?

[liberal_at_heart]

8. don't let them get you down WillyT. People would like to everyone to think that this site is only

for centrist democrats and that liberals are not welcome. But there are more liberals on here than they would like to admit and we are not going anywhere.

[ScreamingMeemie]

13. I just have to take frequent breaks now and again.

[JI7]

15. dfk was a right winger

[JDPriestly]

163. Yes. But it was interesting to argue with him.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

22. dfk was supposed to be a liberal?

The poster who was obsessed with the idea that maternity benefits should be an added cost to healthcare plans was a liberal? That seems like the exact opposite of what someone who genuinely wanted single payer would say. Single payer advocates say we all pay into the same pool at the same price. Republican trolls insist that they should not be forced to "subsidize" other people for benefits they won't use.

[liberal_at_heart]

26. Many of us liberals have been falsely labeled libertarians. You don't know if dfk was a right

winger or not. I have many people on ignore because they have bullied me or sometimes just because I can't stand some of their opinions but I would never assume to know which ones are right wingers or not.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

30. I think believing that women ought to pay more for healthcare then men makes you a right winger.

Last edited Fri Oct 25, 2013, 10:42 PM - Edit history (1)

And a ridiculously obvious one.

[Hekate]

121. There's actually quite a handful of those. I quit arguing with them because it was so pointless.

They're here all right, and so righteously offended that "they have to pay for" women's pregnancies. Also pretty much anything that women have that men don't. tsk. Last one I engaged kept changing the subject.

[treestar]

247. And isn't it so right wing to be concerned that you might be helping someone else?

That very concept is not what a liberal does. And a right winger always assumes they will never "take" from the system.

[roguevalley]

228. i am always amazed by that kind of thinking. I don't have kids and never have but I pay for

schools too. Someone paid for me, I pay it ahead. Expecting women to pay more is right wing bs. I agree with you SolutionisSolidarity.

[JI7]

37. zimmerman supporter, anti muslim, tax cuts for wealthy , "we need rand paul" etc

is a good sign.

[pitbullgirl1965]

116. Wow.

I ever paid attention to them before. They'd been on here since 2003 a very long time for a troll.

[JDPriestly]

164. I argued with him a lot. His economic ideas were conservative in general, but not always.

[tblue37]

233. FYI: dkf is a woman. nt

[Flying Squirrel]

234. fyi: dkf CLAIMED to be a woman.

We have no way of knowing for sure, but many of us believed s/he was really male and found it convenient to adopt a female persona in order to counteract accusations of sexism. I personally believe he was a paid disruptor.

[tblue37]

365. Yeah--I see what you mean.

Funny thing is I always assumed s/he was a *paid* troll, not just a hobbyist, because of his/her post count, but until I just now read your post, I foolishly neglected to consider that dkf might not be female!

Obviously a female persona could attack on subjects that would get a male persona in trouble, so s/he would have a strong incentiveto lie if necessary about that point.

[ZomBoy]

241. Single payer advocates say we all pay into the same pool at the same price.

What about those who can't afford to pay into it after rent, food, electricity... etc. Should they not get some help instead of paying out the last of their money and are now left broke?

[muriel_volestrangler]

277. That is not what typical single payer advocates say

Canada is the model most often suggested on DU:

In general, costs are paid through funding from income taxes. In British Columbia, taxation-based funding is supplemented by a fixed monthly premium which is waived or reduced for those on low incomes.[5] There are no deductibles on basic health care and co-pays are extremely low or non-existent (supplemental insurance such as Fair Pharmacare may have deductibles, depending on income).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

So the progressive nature of the income taxes means the poor pay very little into it.

[pnwmom]

56. dfk was not a liberal. S/he was a right wing troll. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

64. That is not true...its just some are on the far far left...do not realize how far they are...

Do you know many people that are even more to the left than you are? Perhaps YOU are the far edge....the fringe..."so to speak".

Everyone to your Right is not a centrist....there are Liberals not as far left as some people are! That's what makes you sound like Teabaggers...They are even calling McCain a Liberal Now! Do you not see the similarity?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

104. very good point. a person could be 7 out of 10 on "liberal purity" scorecard

and might be viewed by some on here as Center-right. Uh, really? It takes all kinds. Much like a circus, we are a big tent party.

[sabrina 1]

223. Describe this 'far, far left' in terms of issues please. Throwing out these vague

innuendos does nothing to inform anyone. So I am interested in who on DU you consider to be this 'left fringe' element so we can understand where you are coming from.

[VanillaRhapsody]

361. Well what do YOU consider left of YOU?

If there IS nothing Lefter than you are...YOU are IT!

[sabrina 1]

375. Than is not an answer. I am for issues that make this a better society

which is I am a Democrat.

You have been throwing around this 'far, far left' phrase and I would like to know what issues someone who is in that, what I presume you are implying, negative category would be supportive of that would earn them this title.

It was not my characterization, it was yours. Which is why I asked you to define what YOU are talking about.

[treestar]

248. [phone]

People who insist in adapting the left/center/right paradigm from their personal viewpoint and expecting all others to agree are so unreasonable.

[VanillaRhapsody]

362. No that is not what I am saying at all...

I am saying that WE on the Left...have our Fringe too...they are OUR Libertarians and Teabaggers. If no one is more Left than you are...YOU ARE that fringe...

[dlwickham]

212. on what planet do people think this is a site for moderate Democrats

someone posts a moderate point of view and there's a feeding frenzy

[villager]

216. +1

[DonCoquixote]

407. yes though

DFK was a shining example of the people you just talked about

[gopiscrap]

54. gotta point

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

112. Seriously. We don't need that RW crap here. As someone else in this thread said, if you want

to interact with RW talking points, check out Yahoo.

[rhett o rick]

180. I do not understand how with that attitude you can claim to be "politically liberal".

[JI7]

184. very simple, i think that right wing asshole should get govt help if they don't have money

for food, housing and many other things. i thinkt hat right wing asshole should get govt funded health care if they can't afford it.

so that makes me politically liberal

[rhett o rick]

187. Do you consider yourself open-minded and able to argue with those that may not

agree with your world view? Or do you think that everyone that doesnt see eye to eye with you should be locked, hidden, ridiculed and/or PPR'd?

[JI7]

193. if they are right wingers they aren't allowed to post here, if the admin change their minds

they are allowed to do that and i might stop posting here then.

but i come here because it's meant for certain people.

[rhett o rick]

267. But it looked like you were disparaging WillyT in post #4. Do you think he is a "right-wing

troll"?

[roguevalley]

229. I guess I am hopeless. I always think about hungry children. Lefty, rightie centrist children

screw the parents. help those in need. That makes me a leftie.

[Logical]

202. Classy as usual! nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

5. I certainly don't like where it seems to be heading...

with supposition, name taking, and the like.

I foresee a bunch of witch hunts coming up in the next few weeks, based upon where one falls on the current "D" spectrum.

[WillyT]

7. Agreed...

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. It's always good to see you WillyT

[WillyT]

294. :)

[Ohio Joe]

23. I don't think that is something to worry about...

Newbies can get a pizza from MIRT but even then, only with consensus. MIRT can also ban a long time poster if they get a 6-0 hide but that is supposed to be only in a case where someone runs amok in the middle of the night... I've only done one term (starting my second) but I've not seen a single case where anyone even suggested a MIRT ban for someone over 100 posts... It is always 'kick to Admins'. Every other case goes to the Admins to determine if a ban is in order and I am unaware of any rash bans by the Admins... In fact, IMO, they give a hell of a lot of leeway to people... I can't see them banning anyone just because people called for it... They need to believe it is in order.

I suspect anyone taking names or trying to form a lynch mob would be more likely to get a pizza then their target.

[ScreamingMeemie]

35. I have done two terms on MIRT and served as a moderator on DU2.

I am not, after over 10 years, blind to the ways that DU works. It is something to worry about. It's happened before. For some, being on DU is almost a job. Collect "evidence," push posters to their limits, alert, alert, and alert again. Admin is not perfect and mistakes have been made. I lost several good friends in one such purge. All of them staunch liberals who were sticking up for their rights.

Yes, it is something to worry about.

I vote for Democrats, but I often don't like their decisions. I refuse to support bad decisions as if I were in the stands of a football game. I want to be represented, not just have a "D" in office. That isn't liked very much around these parts anymore...the actually holding lawmakers accountable for decisions that we would have banded together against when an "R" was in office.

And so, causal games of baiting are begun...hoping and waiting for someone to slip up, post something, and alert. And then alert again, and again. Yes. It happens.

Am I glad dkf is gone? Quite; the poster was only here to stir the pot. Should I be banned someday because I abhor the current administration's allowing of drones? Hell no, because that's a Democratic value.

In my defense, for those who are drawing their opinions of me, I was vehemently against ACA--especially when it made it impossible for my son to get health insurance on his own policy when the beginning pieces were employed--and I admitted I was wrong just a couple of weeks ago, when I was able to obtain affordable insurance.

There is a difference between a troll and someone you don't agree with. Too many times we get that messed up.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

46. agree

You said:

There is a difference between a troll and someone you don't agree with. Too many times we get that messed up.

Yep.....I agree that is the difficulty.

[JDPriestly]

171. I figure the default choice on a jury is to let the post remain.

I only vote to take it off it is really terrible.

Maybe that isn't right, but I figure DU is a place to debate, to learn, to discuss and to share. So i don't always have to be right, and neither do other DUers.

[roguevalley]

230. there was a thread a while back where some outed themselves as rapists. they didn't get banned.

the thread didn't get bombed. It is weird what flies and what gets shot down.

[steve2470]

95. here's the way I see it Screaming, and I'm on MIRT also

In the game of life, it helps to know what the "rules" are. Here at DU, it's the same thing. You either follow the rules and have no worries, or you break them accidentally/deliberately and pay the price.

The rules apply to me and all of MIRT as well. If we (meaning we MIRT members) engage in GD combat and cross the line, so to speak, we run the risk of hides and eventually getting banned. Since I'm pretty circumspect about my posts and threads, I'm not worried about it in the least. DKF was able to stay here forever because he/she knew the rules and usually followed them. He/she finally messed up/pushed her luck too far and it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Stay civil, watch your words and you have nothing to fear. Say anything you want at any time, and then you have something to be anxious about. I think admin is extraordinarily lenient with posters, in general. JMHO.

[ScreamingMeemie]

107. "Stay civil, watch your words and you have nothing to fear." That is how it should be, but that is n

I don't care about the banning of dkf (I've been taking extended breaks because the atmosphere here can be rather heavy at times). What I care about is the circling of sharks that come after.

It is not MIRT's fault. MIRT can only do so much. There used to be a steadfast policy that Mods on DU did not partake in flamewars. I really liked that policy.

But no, I have seen good friends of mine, good liberals banned for not much other than sticking up for their rights.

It's the way it should be...but it's not the way it is. Because nobody is perfect.

dkf is not what I'm talking about here. The snarky comments and "funny" asides about other posters that go hand in hand in these threads is what I'm talking about here.

Thank you.

[VanillaRhapsody]

101. Oh I see...when YOU got affordable healthcare...that made all the difference...

Some of us around here are not going to directly benefit from, or may have to pay more or lose a little benefit in the short term because of ACA...and ALSO wanted Single Payer...but when that wasn't going to happen... worked and supported and did whatever we could to ensure that others...LIKE YOU....would get better treatment.

And believe me...I have spent MOST of the past 10 yrs without health insurance...so I knew all along how important ANY change... would be greatly welcomed...and it would give a lot of Americans at least a chance to catch their breath....and the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step.

I hope at least that decision gave you moment of pause for self introspection....time to maybe second guess yourself.


"its not just about me".

[Pretzel_Warrior]

109. good point. I have employer coverage and probably will until that regime falls apart

but I will gladly pay x% more in taxes to ensure we are a healthy society that doesn't treat poverty like a crime. Part of people lifting themselves up out of horribly destitute situations is knowing others are propping them up a bit while they get their footing.

it's not only progressive--it is pragmatic to do so.

[VanillaRhapsody]

128. THAT is exactly it!

It's not about what helps you....its about the proverbial "least among us". When you lift the bottom up...all boats rise with them! ACA was the best that could have happened under the circumstances...that should be abundantly clear by now...especially after the govt shutdown....

If the Rightwing HATES it THAT much.....there must be something to it...that alone should be all some people need to understand how important getting ACA is. It frustrates me to no end that people seem to lose sight of that fact.

"Don't let the Good be the Enemy of the Perfect"


That adage has been around a long time....there is reason for that longevity....it's a simple truth.

[ScreamingMeemie]

111. You have completely missed the point.

I will gladly give you back my health insurance (not healthcare) if that will help you see the point. I was trying to underline the fact that people here are going to argue and disagree. What a horrible response to my confession. I hope maybe you will reread what I have written and actually understand it. Have a wonderful evening.

[VanillaRhapsody]

129. Horrible response?????

OMG...

How did you expect that to be heard?

"I was vehemently against ACA-"

And NO the ACA did NOT prevent your son from getting an early policy...there are no ACA policies until January 1st!

Everyone is trying to blame all the shit their insurance companies do on the ACA....Health insurance policies were cancelled and raised before Obama and the ACA!

[ScreamingMeemie]

139. It was a shortened version of this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023818950

I guess I should not be surprised because the original post of mine dropped like a stone because 1. it was a pro-ACA post which did not make the ones who want it to fail happy and 2. I admitted in the post that I am not always thrilled with our President (whom I gladly voted for--to CMA with you at this point), which did not make the people who support him without fail 100% happy. I guess I should not expect people to remember the half dozen posts I made about navigating the system, cutting and pasting the plans, and admitting I was wrong. The space for those of us who have chosen not to take one side over the other when it comes to the Obama wars gets smaller and smaller every day.

But go ahead and be cruel. I can take it. I don't even recognize this place on some evenings. It is a major part of why I find (after almost 11 years of participating, volunteering to mod/host/MIRT) I spend less and less time here. Because in my merely being honest, I manage to "offend" people. And you don't even know me.

Have a wonderful evening VR.

[VanillaRhapsody]

154. NO I just pointed out that YOU were being cruel is all...

Like I said...SOME people will be paying a little more or receiving a little less...yet manage to still support ACA without having the added incentive that it directly improves OUR lot in life.

I am not rich and I've worked hard to get where I am...BUT I remember where I came from and how hard those days were and that I benefited from a few hands up...and because of that I am still willing to reach back and bring others with me as I improve my lot myself. It's not all about ME and Mine...Its about YOU and YOURS too ....for me....THAT is what being a "Progressive" is about....that's what sets up apart (and head and shoulders above) Conservatives...

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

[ScreamingMeemie]

160. Sorry VR, but I disagree.

You took words and twisted them.

When you work very hard for something (single payer) and you are your son's sole support system with an untreated disease...you get that way. Of course I am selfish. It is the human condition and it is my job to care for my son. My comment was merely a confession. You wanted it to be something more, so you made it something more. I am only human, and so are you. We should both remember that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

162. that had nothing to do with ACA.

thats unregulated Insurance industry...

[ScreamingMeemie]

165. I don't do manufactured arguments and fake affronts, VR. It's no longer part of my DU experience.

You can either choose to get to know me, or not. You can also choose to inflate my honest confession into something else. Or not. Have a nice weekend.

[VanillaRhapsody]

172. Yeah I wanted Single Payer too...I had it as a child of a career military father....

As my grandmother always said "wish in one hand...shit in the other...which one fills up faster"?

ACA is IT for now...and now I am not going to be eligible for exchanges or subsidies..... but I am so thankful for it......and I stand to see mine increase or lose benefits.....but I would still fight for YOU to have the Exchange..."there but for the grace of God" is another thing my Grandmother often said....there are people out that really really need any help at all no matter how small...

The journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step.....


So excuse me..... if all I have is a golf clap in response....

[ScreamingMeemie]

178. I don't really need any applause.

I'm just in it for my kid. It would have been nice for you to see the actual point of the post as an illustration of what is making DU suck, but that's not going to happen and I simply don't do these things anymore.

[VanillaRhapsody]

189. Perhaps I feel the opposite...and I get it.

the point came across quite clear....the litmus test for you was whether or not it directly impacted you positively...How else could that statement have been interpreted?

[Demit]

371. To answer your question, much more generously than it was.

Lighten up, Francis.

[sabrina 1]

224. Very nicely done, ScreamingMeemie. I think most Progressives here understood your

extremely honest post perfectly, the rest don't matter. I am glad you were able to get the help you need for your child.

[ScreamingMeemie]

225. Thank you sabrina 1, for understanding.

I was rather taken aback by that response. It has been an odd day.

[Bluenorthwest]

288. I understand exactly what you are saying, I agree with you and I found that response to you

to be utterly without merit.

[ScreamingMeemie]

408. Thank you Blue... sometimes it is difficult to even try to get along with people.

[BlueStreak]

45. Half the time, the doctrinal purists here don't even take the time

to read and fully understand what others are saying. They just react to particular keywords and light the torches and grab the pitch forks.

If we believe in our values, we should not be afraid of other viewpoints that we don't agree with, especially in this place which is, after all, a safe house for liberals.

[ScreamingMeemie]

84. I watched that happen to Octafish the other day

When he posted about the loss of a friend. The DUer read the first sentence of the post and attacked. It was awful.

[enlightenment]

108. Yes.

It does have the feel of an another purge coming on . . .

[trumad]

6. Snarf

Im out celebrating celebrating tonight. Yeeee hawwww!

[WillyT]

10. Well Yeah... You Would...

[madinmaryland]

19. Not bad for someone who has come back from the DEAD.

:mim shaking his head:

Just change your fucking avatar already.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

57. why change avatar?

[madinmaryland]

97. Because his "beloved" Phins are going to lose to Will Pitt's Cheatriots.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

100. is that a bet going on? I Must have missed it. :D

[madinmaryland]

117. They've been doing it for as long as I have been here.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

118. ahhhh....that's cool

[WilliamPitt]

227. "Just change your fucking avatar already."

Patience. It's almost Sunday.

[Gormy Cuss]

9. The persona was named "dkf"

and I'm not a fan of grave dancing either but there seems to be considerable bottled up anger at that persona. Some PPRs are harder to accept than others. Me, I sparred with dkf sometimes but mostly ignored the poster.

[WillyT]

16. See... That's The Beauty Of It...

Although I jousted with the (I stand corrected) DKF... on many occasions...

I always enjoyed the tussle.

How weak kneed do we look, if we cannot at least handle THAT?

I have NO interest in a political website that cannot argue within t's members.

"shrug:

[JI7]

20. so you think DU should allow right wingers anyone else to post on here, that it should be open

to all ?

[Whisp]

33. That does appear to be so, doesn't it?

Another grain of sand on the pile of 'let rightwingers or Fuckwad Ron Pauls be tolerated and welcomed on DU'.

fuck that noise.

[treestar]

246. Yep and it's "centrists" who should be banned

How often have we been called right wing trolls for supporting Democrats?

[rhett o rick]

191. I doubt that's what he thinks, but nice try. nm

[Demo_Chris]

367. Sure, I am not afraid to defend the liberal position against anyone. nt

[trumad]

24. bye

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I love you man, in a good way, that site no longer exists.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

29. Republicans are not welcome here.

If you want to debate right wingers, there's yahoo. There's enough genuine diversity within the Democratic Party and wider left that we need not let the cess pool flood over the barricades here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I am not sure if we are at the same site

We have plenty of anti labor, pro entitlement cuts without saith member, with quite a few Ayn Rand posters.

I guess we are not at the same site.

[liberal_at_heart]

36. They are the loudest ones. They like to make it seem like they are the majority.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Yup

[JI7]

41. and dfk was one of them and has finally been banned

[SolutionisSolidarity]

55. There are plenty of "pro-business" Democrats who oppose labor rights and support entitlement cuts.

That's what makes the job so difficult for the Mods - how to separate center-right Democrats from outright trolls. dkf dipped too deeply into the right wing propaganda, exposing themselves for what they were. So I don't really know what your complaint is - are you saying the mods be more heavy-handed in removing right wing posters?

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. You are new

So you have no clue what I am talking about, and that is fine.

I will say no more.

Welcome to the new DU...it's been here forever, but now it's damn obvious to the real old timers.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

133. Not as new as you would think.

I used to post under a different ID, but I don't always have time for it. I'd lost my old email account at some point and couldn't remember my log-in info, so I decided to just make a new account. Oddly enough I've seen someone using my old account name, so I guess it becomes available after a certain period of inactivity.

I've been here long enough to remember when the biggest debate was MIHOP or LIHOP. Certainly the website has changed a great deal in our ascendancy to the establishment. But in the particular case of dkf, I don't see the Left being silenced, I see the barely pseudo-Left being exposed. This poster wanted "entitlement reform". This poster was attacking the ACA from the right, and the ACA isn't exactly all that left-wing in concept. Why lament the removal of their posting rights?

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. Alas I saw her as one more of the conservadems

And at least she was polite. I cannot say this for many others in the Conservative side of the party.

I had my deep disagreements. But that is what it is.

Welcome back.

[TorchTheWitch]

232. those people aren't Democrats

There is no such thing as a pro-business or center-right Democrat. If you oppose labor rights you are simply not a Democrat, and it makes no bloody difference that you try to label yourself one which is exactly what is wrong with the party. Pro-labor is the number one core belief of Democrats. You don't get to pick and chose which core beliefs to be in favor of or not. And that's why having two parties with one in lockstep on every single core belief and the other being inclusive to everyone else is an enormous fucking failure that guarantees an enormous rightward shift of the whole country that only goes further and further right. That's part of how we got here. The other part is having two parties that both kiss the asses of their corporate masters who fund them.

[treestar]

249. Oh we do not

people labeling someone anti-labor over some point on which they disagree does not mean the person is actually anti-labor, and the same for the rest of it.

You can get labeled for just questioning the point of view of the self appointed advocates of each thing.

[rhett o rick]

192. But I bet you love you some Gen Clapper and Gen Alexander. They are Republicans. nm

[SolutionisSolidarity]

204. You bet wrong, then.

I've been arguing against this stuff since it was called Total Information Awareness, and I still don't like it. But it doesn't really matter, since public support for civil liberties is non-existent. I learned that watching the Guantanamo debacle, listening to Libertarians debase themselves arguing "they may have been innocent when we locked them up, but they've surely been radicalized since. We can't risk bringing them to America!" The NSA stuff is hyped because it makes Obama look bad, but if Obama had moved against the NSA, 99% of these libertarian activists would have sat around complaining like they always do.

[ChazII]

358. Right Nation is better than

Yahoo if you want to debate right wingers. I lurk there at times while they poke fun at what they call their 'resident libs' they do offer a membership for liberals. They seem to have more thought than the arm chair quarterbacks and naysayers one finds on Yahoo.

Just my opinion.

[Gormy Cuss]

78. I have no interest in arguing with trolls.

People who have basic ideological agreements on most issues, yes. People who mostly take a right-of-center position, no on a board for center-to-left Democrats, liberals, and progressives.

I waste enough time arguing with right wingers on non-partisan sites. I don't want to deal with same on Democratic Underground.

[rhett o rick]

194. How wonderful it would be to be in a sight where everyone loved you and agreed with you and

worshiped you. But not very Democratic.

[Gormy Cuss]

195. And yet, it's consistent with the TOS of this site.

I expect to deal with RWers on other sites. I don't expect it here.

[treestar]

354. There's still a limit on who comes here

No Republicans or other right wingers, period. If you don't like that restriction, there are plenty of places out there to debate with them.

[rhett o rick]

370. I totally agree that right wingers are not welcome here.

I am glad that this site is restricted to "politically liberal". Open-minded people that know how to discuss and debate without resorting to ridicule and mockery.

But some here choose to question the veracity of posters like WillyT or Sabrina. They clearly arent right-wing. Why do you suppose that happens?

[rhett o rick]

185. I 100% agree with you. I was often frustrated with my discussions wit dkf

but I always thought she was polite and honest. That's a whole lot more than I can say for the bully posse here that seems to be untouchable.

[WillyT]

391. Thank You For That !!!

Peace...

[go west young man]

264. It seems to me that the tools of debate

are no longer eloquent well thought out words here. Instead they are "the DU rules" and how one can manipulate them to suit their personal purpose. The rules have become tools of cliques that seek to have everyone adapt their exact viewpoint. The cliques have a criteria they are holding everyone to even though all individuals arrive here with different levels of political thinking. Their criteria is getting in the way of bringing people on board and helping those new DU'ers to enjoy DU. Nadine's right...it is a bit Lord of The Flies these days. It feels more like a little gangs hangout than a serious discussion board.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

304. I'm amazed at some of the new members and their understanding...

of "the rules." They're not here to discuss, they're here to nail people. And not just new members. Hell, I've been here since 2004 and still couldn't recite the difference between a forum and a group. And I've managed to have only one post hidden, and even then, I did it intentionally (it needed to be said).

It hasn't felt like much of a thoughtful discussion board since 2008, but for a select few groups. Forums. Whatever.

[go west young man]

316. Totally agree....

the major change happened during the 2008 elections when the centrists clamored all over the site realizing DU was the best place for democratic political discussion. It was good to have them onboard at first. Prior to that DU was more a place for true liberals and Howard Dean style dems so we all had more in common back then. Since then it has become quite watered down, impolite, non progressive and centrist. In my mind DU is the new status quo and ironically these groups who work to limit the abilities of people they disagree with are just gatekeepers of the same mentality as RW's.

True liberals welcome all debate and see it as a challenge. It makes one dig deeper and think harder. Simply banning people you disagree with or find annoying is similar to using a sword when one can pick up a pen. The challenge is to debate them on the merits of their argument and back it up with sourced information without being rude. That is where true liberal democratic maturity comes in play. DFK never irritated me and I can't understand why others here want all their points sounded back to them with kudos. Party has replaced ideology here in a similar way that it did with the republicans. The real goal should always be a better progressive movement that effects real change and makes lives brighter.

[Demo_Chris]

368. Exactly. Very well said. If you cannot discuss or defend a position...

You deserve to be challenged on it, even if that challenge comes from someone you believe to be right wing. I love it when people disagree with me, and I love it still more when they can articulate why. That's how I refine and even change my positions. It's called learning and reason, and I am into both.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

374. "True liberals welcome all debate and see it as a challenge.

It makes one dig deeper and think harder." You said it well.

DFK didn't phase me much because s/he was constantly challenged, and I went away learning from other DUers. I have a problem with posters like MichiganDem, insulting others, calling names, and not having the *nuts* to stick around and debate. And I'll vote to hide any thread I consider rude, or one that offers up a "FU" or "STFU." If I want to see that sort of incivility, I'll hang out on celebrity websites.

If DU is reduced to Facebook graphics with nothing but "mahalo" and silly smilies considered discussion, there's no point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

389. Sadly there is actual discussion on FB

Plus likes and silly graphics. Cats like dominate.

It depends on the intent of the FB page and moderation

[WillyT]

392. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

:applause;

EX... ACTLY !!!

[rhett o rick]

396. Very well said. True liberals welcome debate. That's why I am here in DU, to debate.

I could debate with dkf and I believe I learned from it. I often got frustrated but looking back I see that my frustration was over my not having a better ability to provide a better argument. Now dont get me wrong, I completely support the decision to ban dkf. I have a bigger problem with those posters that seem to be in DU solely to be the neighborhood watch. Our own Zimmermans. They want nothing more here than to exercise their power to hide or lock. Attempts to engage these posters in honest debate often quickly turns to mockery and/or ridicule.

I often ask these "so-called" politically liberal Democrats how their principles differ from those of the left. All I ever get is birds chirping. They love to disparage the left but wont discuss how their principles differ from the left. I can only conclude that they are ex-Republicans or New Democrats whose ideologies are not in line with liberalism.

I suppose I shouldnt be surprised but some people believe that if a politician switches parties and becomes a Democrat, that that is a good thing. These people have reduce the complexity of political ideologies down to either have a D or R after your name.

Sorry I got going.

Again, thanks for the post.

[Kingofalldems]

266. Except this is Democratic Underground

It's for Democrats not republicans. DKF was a republican.

[Zorra]

310. +1 nt

[steve2470]

269. I understand and respect what you're saying, Willy

If this site was a typical political site open to all, dkf would have fit right in. He/she would still be here jousting with everyone.

The TOS limits the jousting because of the underlying mission of DU, which Skinner spells out pretty well. I never got the strong sense dkf was a Democrat or a progressive. I don't recall him/her ever saying anything positive about Democrats or PBO. Again, on a regular site, he/she would have fit right in with no issues. He/she was able to survive here for so long because he/she obeyed the rules and was polite about things.

It's just a simple issue of a "mismatch", at the bare minimum, or a dedicated skilled troll, which is more my view. He/she is really better suited for a general political site. I think we have to give the admins credit for being upfront about what DU is. If you don't like the overarching purpose or the rules....you can go elsewhere.

Just my dos pesos

[nadinbrzezinski]

293. Except that the place has

Degraded into a lord of the flies, where there is targeting of liberal democrats.

When this is targeted for ridicule by our local bullies

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023921037

It should explain to you why liberal dems and progressives expect a purge, and sme of us don't bother posting more than things like this.

When you have people here on DU (who are protected) spreading lies about members that echo the Conservative Cave at times word for word about posters, and they are protected, one has to doubt the "mission statement"

It's almost primary season, like clockwork a purge is coming. This is the way of DU. It will not be right of center conservadems. It will be liberals, LGBT, and other groups, but not conservadems.

You are right, they should be open about it and make it official. It is a site for conservadems, slightly right of center Democrats.

[Brickbat]

313. "When this is targeted for ridicule by our local bulles."

Targeting by...asking questions and thanking you for information? Martyr much?

[1000words]

11. I've trashed numerous grave dancing threads, simply on principle.

I'm indifferent regarding dkf, but believe all said celebrations are in bad form.

Thanks for the thread.

[Marrah_G]

12. I can :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

42. ^This post right here is exactly what I am talking about.

No, I didn't get that from his post at all, ucrdem.

I don't believe we've met. Welcome to DU.

[Marr]

156. Yep. /nt

[QC]

296. Yes, that's exactly it. n/t

[marmar]

44. Are you trying to accuse WillyT of flogging right-wing talking points?

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Yup

But neither of us plays rigged games.

[flamingdem]

50. Plus fearmongering

on a variety of subjects!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

67. I don't mind the ban. I do care about Orwellian types like you who are trying to use this PRR

...to sow distrust and cast suspicion on others. Your move is transparent and very much unappreciated.

[ScreamingMeemie]

70. +1

[AnotherMcIntosh]

125. +2

[Marr]

158. +1

[sabrina 1]

219. + 1000 n/t

[treestar]

251. Orwellian types?

Just name calling. You should get an alert, but you have enough allies that it would probably stand. So there is no point. Attacking fellow DUers because they don't agree with you by calling them that.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

314. Alert on the post if you want to. I said what I meant to say.

[treestar]

318. And you are just name calling

And I note you don't care whether your post is hide-able or not.

[WillyT]

393. LOL !!! - "...you don't care whether your post is hide-able or not."

WOW !!!

[treestar]

418. The person says they don't care if they are being rude or disruptive

That's the point.

[sabrina 1]

405. Wrong post. The hide-able post has been hidden as it should have been.

[treestar]

419. No it hasn't, it is still there

He's calling people Orwellian types. Attacking fellow DUers because they don't agree with them.

[Bluenorthwest]

290. +1, me too, boy howdy yes!

Also amen.

[QC]

299. Amen. n/t

[rhett o rick]

323. I agree. nm

[Puglover]

421. Exactly.

Both were trolls. But here is a big difference between the two. DKF was a right wing troll. And a good one obviously which can be proved by the length of her stay here. At least she stood on her own without a swarm behind her.

The other was a troll that slapped a "I LOVE THE DLC" sticker on his chest and posted thread after thread trashing progressives and even worse divided all DU members that fell in different places on the spectrum.

Frankly I couldn't give a shit about the Tombstone. And who cares frankly about a grave dancing thread? Both were booted off of a website. Both can and probably will start another account. The only thing they lost was a user name and post count. I just can't muster up a lot of boo hoo over it.

But what is REALLY rich are the few members in this thread trying to equate a distaste for a gravedancing thread to supporting RW talking points on DU. That particular leap isn't worthy of anything but an eye roll and a sympathetic giggle.

[ScreamingMeemie]

424. .

[bluestate10]

77. WillyT NEVER, NEVER flogs RW talking points. That poster is a linchpin of the DU Left.

I have crossed swords with the poster often given that I am Left-Center.

[ucrdem]

92. Well, we disagree.

Strongly.

[Dragonfli]

152. Bull, which RW talking points have you seen being flogged? You have been doing little other

than calling out posters here since you arrived. It appears to me to be your entire purpose here.

You appear to think lying in your pursuit of starting shit is OK.
I am calling you on this lie, post the RW talking points you claim are being "flogged" (I know you can't because they do not exist coming from the poster you are calling out, I know you are lying)

Why don't you go back to SPAMdens blog where you belong and stop trying to start shit here?

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. I vote for the CC

[Dragonfli]

168. I am curious as to how the poster can defend an obvious lie, likely there will simply be no answer

Or a rant as a reply that completely ignores the issue of addressing the false claims made.

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. Nothing here surprises me any more

Including personal attacks.

I don't play games of chance, so no alert from me.

[rhett o rick]

272. Is supporting the Patriot Act a right-wing stand? How about supporting Gen Clapper

and the NSA spying? Is that a right-wing stand? The RW loves the Patriot Act and Gen Clapper. The left are skeptical of the authoritarians Generals Clapper and Alexander. The left would like to see the Patriot Act repealed.

I bet WillyT stands with the left on these issues. Where do you stand?

Your accusations are, at best, misplaced.

[muriel_volestrangler]

286. ucrdem is one of the most pro-NSA, anti-Greenwald and Snowden DUers there is

If you look at the threads they've started in GD since June 1st, you see:

OP Troglodyte Republicon "HEARTS" Bradley Manning, proposes a national holiday ucrdem Jul 31 General Discussion
OP Snowden attorney speaks for Rand Paul, Lyndon LaRouche, and the 4th amendment ucrdem Jul 2013 General Discussion
OP History will thank the African-American, Latino, and Asian-American voters who saved the world ucrdem Jul 2013 General Discussion
OP NSA-gate: What did Obama do? ucrdem Jun 2013 General Discussion
OP Obama in Copenhagen: Climategate. Obama in Sunnylands: NSA-gate. Obama in Belfast: ucrdem Jun 2013 General Discussion
OP Naomi Wolf calls bullshit on the Snowden story ucrdem Jun 2013 General Discussion
OP If Greenwald and Snowden are heroes, why aren't they talking about Syria? ucrdem Jun 2013 General Discussion
OP CATO Institute, "How the NSA Spies on Americans": ucrdem Jun 2013 General Discussion

[whatchamacallit]

329. Yep +1 n/t

[sabrina 1]

340. Then you won't have a problem proving some examples as

Willy has been here for over a decade airc and is a prolific author of OPs. It should take no more than a few minutes to link to these right wing talking points you refer to.

Thanks for backing up your statement in advance!

[ucrdem]

346. Willy T: "In Some Ways... We Shouldn't Be Surprised... Barack Obama WAS Tutored By Joe Lieberman..."

As A Senator... And Hired Rahm Emanuel As His First Chief-Of-Staff.

A Jury voted 4-2 to hide this post on Fri May 24, 2013, 07:53 PM. Reason: This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. When the original post in a discussion thread is hidden by Jury decision, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022898181

[ucrdem]

348. p.s. Recommendations:

Recommendations

10 members have recommended this thread (displayed in chronological order):

Tierra_y_Libertad DJ13 quinnox LWolf sabrina 1 DirkGently dflprincess rbilick WillyT bananas

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10022898181&info=1#recs

Hope that helps.

[sabrina 1]

350. Those are facts. You said 'right wing talking points'. Dems

generally have no problem stating facts, even inconvenient ones. If anything that only proves that Willy is not right winger like the old Bush loyalists who even when they knew he was wrong, would never have the integrity or honesty to admit it.

If you think we should be like them then you are in for a huge disappointment.

Rahm Emmanuel was a horrible choice, so are all the Republicans appointed to this administration's cabinet. And anyone calling themselves a Democrat would not pretend otherwise.

[ucrdem]

353. If you don't see the very serious problem here I can't help you. nt

[sabrina 1]

355. I do see a serious problem here but it's not with Democrats like

Willy.

[QC]

364. He can't answer you now. n/t

[Th1onein]

134. WillyT is not a rightwinger.

I saw the post that DKF got banned for, and it looked like she posted it on this site by mistake. She might belong to another (right wing) site under anothesr name. It was clearly right wing, no doubt, and maybe she was showing her true colors with that post and should have been banned.

But it's really not good form to accuse someone here of being a right wing troll. That is a decision that is clearly marked for MIRT.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

142. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

is malarkey! God, that is so funny that you would step in with that kind of performance art.

Maybe DKF was actually one of the troll bots in a computer program that Catherina warned us about and the code got jumbled.

[Th1onein]

203. I don't think you understood what I was saying.

And I don't really understand what you're saying, either.

[marmar]

143. The poster knows that, but it's par for the smear course......

...... anyone who defends actual liberal positions that oppose right-wing actions taken by Democrats in power, such as warmongering and hyper surveillance, will be attacked. And laughably, they try to accuse those who are actually leftists of pushing a right-wing agenda. It's projection on steroids.

[ScreamingMeemie]

146. +1

[ucrdem]

153. Posters can dress themselves up in whatever hilariously ill-fitting labels they want

but habitually posting Drudge-worthy propaganda and gloating over it does not a "liberal" make by any definition I'm familiar with.

[Th1onein]

206. Like I said, I think that DKF might have been posting on a rightwing forum and got her posts mixed

up. I read the post that she was banned for, and it was definitely bull rightwing propaganda. I think she posted it here by mistake, and outed herself as a troll.

But I don't think that WillyT is a troll, and it really bothers me that people here would accuse him of that simply because he's decent enough to not want to dance on DKF's grave.

[chervilant]

255. Sanctimony is distasteful,

no matter whence it comes.

[Th1onein]

334. Who is being sanctimonious?

What ARE you talking about?

[chervilant]

415. You concluded

and it really bothers me that people here would accuse him of that simply because he's decent enough to not want to dance on DKF's grave.

I had the impression, from reading the responses herein, that quite a few folks view this OP as a sanctimonious adjuration. I am not accusing; just observing.

[Th1onein]

416. Maybe they do view it like that, but many don't. WillyT is simply being kind. Lots of liberals are

kind. That's how I view the post.

[chervilant]

417. Would that they extend their kindness

to all Republicans, and seek strategies for building consensus on divisive issues. Calling names and being verbal bullies keeps all of us mired in the status quo -- and we're fast approaching a 'point of no return' in our hubris, when party affiliation will be of little consequence in our species' struggle to endure.

In this, I agree with WillyT.

[Th1onein]

422. I agree with you, absolutely, chervilant.

[trumad]

268. Wow!

I continuously am amazed at the posts in this OP.

She may have posted that OP by mistake. Too fucking funny.

[JTFrog]

302. Well that excuse might pop to mind

if you'd made that mistake yourself sometime in the past. There is either some projection going on or perhaps they were familiar with each other at this "other" site.

Just sayin....

[Th1onein]

337. Trumad, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

And if you think I'm making an excuse for DKF, you're dead wrong. I read the post that she was banned for, and it was awful. But I don't think that we should be engaged on a witch hunt here, and saying that someone who doesn't like grave dancing MUST be a troll is a witch hunt.

[Eleanors38]

205. Feeling like time is wasted on these 2 dimensional purity posts.

I rarely comment on them because the Salem quotient is too skewed, and for what? Ripping each other on an innertube site. I've busted ass for Democrats and liberals for nigh-on 50 yrs., and on DU I'm called a RW troll because I take a stance on the Second Amendment similar to that of Hubert Humphrey. It seems for some the greatest achievement is to declare a fine-tuned position on one issue as a litmus, and then to thereby search out & destroy others for being heretics. Seems like the role of inquisitor is the most important thing in their channel changer world.

[chervilant]

428. + a gazillion

I had the person in question on my IL since my first encounter with her/him.

(And, I've learned to trash the sanctimonious "never use my IL!" threads.)

[sabrina 1]

226. Seems to me Willy isn't worried at all about being conspicuous. Please explain what you mean

by that remark. These innuendo personal attack type posts create a hugely negative atmosphere here that is driving many people away.

Willy is a long time respected DUer and that seems like a personal attack to me. If it is not, and you are willing to explain why I should not view it that way, I will apologize.

[ucrdem]

312. DKF wasn't worried either.

And my post is a friendly suggestion. Can I politely suggest that those responding above take it that way? I'd answer individually but most are on my ignore list and most of the others were until a few weeks ago.

[whatchamacallit]

332. Not a valid comparison

but you knew that.

[rhett o rick]

333. It appears to me to be a not so clever threat of PPR. nm

[Motown_Johnny]

18. My advice.. don't even think about dancing there...

so many people have already pissed on it you would be up to your ankles in mud.



Not that some rejoicing isn't understandable.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

21. LOL. And you had to start a new thread to make that known?

Some folks are too predictable.

[1000words]

25. Indeed.

Here you are!

[Skip Intro]

39. "Some folks are too predictable."

You don't say...

[Whisp]

291. and some folks are conspicuously absent...

it's almost funny watching who is playing and who is not in this dfk drama.

very much like if there is a turn in events and Obama really didn't fuck up like many hope he will, then a period of silence ensues until the next pork chop is thrown.

[arthritisR_US]

27. I am no saint, I danced in the same way she did

following the Zimmerman verdict. Sorry

[Skip Intro]

34. Gravedancing is petty

I always viewed dkf as a kind of devil's advocate. On more than on occasion I've viewed her contribution to a particular conversation as simply an injection of reality. I've seen her attacked for reasons I couldn't discern. But I didn't follow her, I don't know her transgressions. I haven't read the post she got booted for.

The gravedancing though? Quite petty and not pretty.

[Cali_Democrat]

52. LOL

[Skip Intro]

62. That's deep. n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

79. Another right wing troll down, more still to go. n/t

[Skip Intro]

82. Hey, can you send me a copy of that list?

[Cali_Democrat]

110. Anyone who thinks spouting right wing talking points is injecting reality. n/t

[Rex]

126. I wuv creekjgod!

[RetroLounge]

136. LOL!

RL

[Rex]

377. Hi there!

Ahh...that one will NEVER get old! So glad I could be there for that 'special moment' in Meta!

[RetroLounge]

388. ...

It was epic!



RL

[Cali_Democrat]

401. I missed that one

What happened?

[Skip Intro]

155. Poor reading comprehension is a problem.

This is true.

[rhett o rick]

321. The list includes everyone not in the BOG. nm

[Cali_Democrat]

387. Fuck Ron Paul. n/t

[CreekDog]

430. are you worried about that list?

Mr. "Trayvon Martin was a racist" and "Ron Paul is not a racist"?

worried?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

60. you would

it's an all star cast of folks coming to wish condolences to the dear-departed and famous dkf.

[Skip Intro]

63. What are you trying to say? n/t

[Ikonoklast]

280. See post #155.

[jazzimov]

38. This is hardly "grave dancing". PPR is hardly death.

If DKF had actually died, I would agree with you. But she merely had her posting privileges revoked so that she is no longer allowed to poison threads.

There is no shame in celebrating that!

[flamingdem]

51. There are those who rise from the grave

[CatWoman]

53. BEST RESPONSE IN THIS THREAD

fuck dkf

[ScreamingMeemie]

58. Disagreed.

I like the ones that discuss the issue at hand, not the poster, who I am not sorry to see gone.

[jazzimov]

170. However, the "issue at hand" is ALWAYS going to be

filtered by the poster.

Whatever the "issue", the poster is always going to present their own personal view.I agree that it is more important to consider the issue itself - however, the way the issue is presented can often prejudice the receptor.

This is why so many posts are dismissed based solely on the source. If the source is unreliable, then the information is suspect.

When a source such as DKF is outed publicly, then it is time for celebration!

[ScreamingMeemie]

175. If it stayed on the celebration, that would be awesome.

It rarely does.

[backscatter712]

88. Exactly. dkf can post whatever garbage he or she wants.

Just not here.

[jazzimov]

174. THANK YOU!

"just not here".

[zeemike]

196. There is always shame in celebrating a negative action.

IMHO.
But this is a new world I guess...where we hi five each other when we kill the enemy, and piss on his corps, and think it's normal.

[rhett o rick]

325. Ahh yes, your rationalization is the key to your happiness. It's grave dancing and it's childish.nm

[ProSense]

40. "Will our government become just one big entitlement program and nothing else? "

If we keep Medicare, social security, Medicaid and interest payments as projected...

We can't do anything else. This means we only care for the elderly and the medical costs of the very poor and the rest of the safety net for younger workers is gone as is investment and the military.

Will our government become just one big entitlement program and nothing else? How does that lead to a future where young people can generate what is needed to take care of the elderly?

The numbers don't work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022665887#post23

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022670514
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021541471

As it is the plan is to cut social security benefits by 25% when the trust funds are spent.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023907606

But hey, what about Canadian-style single payer?

Bye troll!

[SolutionisSolidarity]

75. You know, Prosense, at times I've been critical of you in the past...

But at least I've always known that we are roughly on the same side. I just don't get the bleeding hearts for this poster. Everything I've ever read of theirs is boilerplate right wing nonsense. If we let people like that post here we might as well rename the site politicsunderground and open it up to Republicans. Then DU can be like every other terrible web forum out there.

Was there some time when this poster wrote something reasonable and interesting that I'm not aware of?

[WillyT]

395. Let Me Give That A Try...

Us "Bleeding Hearts" tend to give a shit about EVERYBODY... even those that it seems do not deserve it... much to our own regrets possibly...

BUT...

I try to imagine myself as a poster like DKF... in the opposite...

In my imaginative scenario... I pretend to be a conservative poster on FR or Drudge...

I try to adopt the persona of a TeaBagger/RWr... and spend several years lying to other people and quite possibly... myself.

And after I've entertained that thought... and the waves of nausea and disgust for myself subside... I think...

HOW FUCKING POINTLESS... AND PATHETICALLY SAD.

And I was not so emotionally affected by dkf as others apparently were.

But I felt bad about the reaction here... thought we were better than that...

[KoKo]

43. It was not a "Fine Moment" for DU. Earl G said: "Enough is Enough"

but there was nothing that she/he was banned as "Troll." "Enough is Enough" meant that it was a "Post too Far." Could have been that poster, "dfk" was not willing to caveat the last post which did seem to only source RW Sources without balance?

That's different from banning of others for being "TROLLS" which is often how it appears in their Profile when they have been banned from DU.

Just Says..."Enough is Enough," in "dfk's" Profile.

The "Dancing on Grave" and looking for "other suspects" or inferring that "Other Suspects" were now targets really was sort of "Witch Hunting." Like this person had been on some "Watch List" for years. Kind of Creepy.

Only thing I didn't get about poster "dfk" is: that the person never replied to questions I used to ask on their Post Thread. I figured I might have been on their "IGNORE LIST"...but, never could figure that one out, if it was true or not.

So...Banning meant the DU'er had crossed a line.

But, it's not new to DU. So...we Move On.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

66. I've only been posting actively again from June/July. dkf was HORRIBLE

you could see the pattern of posting links and summaries to right wing talking points and then grabbing a relatively innocuous "Dem" topic to agree with to keep people off balance, but the person was good at what they did. They tried to drag the discourse of DU down and totally hammered the Obama bad all the time message.

Was surprised to see this one finally catch it in the end. But mighty glad.

He/She was banned for cumulative effect of trolling. Goes without saying.

[ProSense]

48. Man... DU Poster 'Message Auto-Removed' Is On A Roll Today !!!

Man... DU Poster 'Message Auto-Removed' Is On A Roll Today !!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023809428

Why is dkf, now banned troll, any different?

Isn't this hypocrisy?

[ScreamingMeemie]

69. Probably because DU Poster "Message Auto-Removed" is a snapshot of

any number of dozens of RW idiots who join the ranks for mere seconds, minutes, or hours.

In watching the "dkf" thread roll out today, I started seeing the witch hunting begin. I saw someone I respects name rolled out as a troll, simply because they don't care for the OP (the disagree on things). I then saw a post right here in this thread, that accused WillyT of being a troll because of this thread. And there is, quite simply, nothing further from the truth.

I have no memorable experiences with dkf, but I don't have a lot of memorable experiences with many here anymore. A lot of my friends left. I know maybe a dozen people on better than fellow poster terms.

I don't care that dkf was banned. I do care about where those threads about it end up in terms of bringing up possible targets.

[ProSense]

71. "I don't care that dkf was banned."

Me either. Good riddance.

[ScreamingMeemie]

73. I truly hope you read the rest of my message and let it sink in.

Otherwise, your post is rather dismissive and a reason why DU can suck.

Have a nice weekend.

[ProSense]

83. I read it. A troll being banned and people being glad about it isn't that deep. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

87. It becomes apparent that you did not read it.

I did not expect you to.

[ProSense]

99. It can't become "apparent" because I did

Trolls get banned, people celebrate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023775248


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=292212&sub=trans


Hypocrisy ensues.

[ScreamingMeemie]

120. Please don't accuse me of hypocrisy when I don't show up on that thread.

Please don't accuse me of anything. I simply stated upthread that I don't like it when these threads turn into things like post #17. I am not defending dkf and to suppose so is to really not comprehend, and also for that apparent lack of reading what I actually wrote to come into play.

We are not allowed to disagree with each other in the least anymore. And, as I've said, it is what makes DU suck.

But posting those links as if I somehow partook of that is over the line. I don't keep records of who said what, where, and when. Althoug I admit there was a time when I cared more. I grew up and got over it. I merely comment on posts. I suggest others do the same. Pretty soon, you forget who it is you are not supposed to like.

Thank you.

[ProSense]

122. I didn't accuse you of anything. "Hyprocrisy ensues" meant in this thread. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

124. I will accept that as the closest thing to an apology that I will get.

Thank you for seeing that ProSense.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

137. ah, the old Steven Colbert line of reasoning.

[ScreamingMeemie]

141. You have a wonderful evening as well, Pretzel_Warrior.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

144. no hard feelings. I like you. I really do.

and I like ProSense. So hard to see two of my favs going at it.

[Th1onein]

145. For what it's worth, I agree with you, ScreamingMeemie

[BluegrassStateBlues]

61. If she doesn't have her Facebook page set up like healthcare.gov,

maybe you can still keep in touch.

[bluestate10]

65. I seldom agree with you, but on this, I do. I don't see the logic of beating down

a person after that person is no longer a factor.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

68. catharsis. and there is something fun about dragging out all their sins when they are toast

for all to see knowing they cannot deflect or deny in any way.

[Union Scribe]

72. Were there any gravedancing threads

when you were banned on DU2? If so did you think those were fun?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

93. I have no idea because I took a major break when that happened

I tried unsuccessfully to get some type of explanation from Admins via email and nothing....oh well.

Somehow, I moved on!

[QC]

311. I don't remember if there was an actual gravedancing thread, but

there was considerable relief and happiness among DU's LGBT people when he was finally banned.

After all, this is the guy who dismissed our desire for legal equality as "a fabulous pink pony."

dkf was a transparent right winger, but I don't think she ever did anything as vile as that.

[bluestate10]

89. I guess I am the type that never punch at a rear view mirror. It is better to look forward

instead of backward.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

98. I'm sure we'll move on for the most part after today

I remember a LOT of high fives when graham4everything was booted. I wasn't involved in those because I hadn't been around for the full force of his bizarre and annoying posting. But after it happened, people moved on and forward.

[Deep13]

74. Who's DFK and what killed him or her? nt

[KoKo]

80. Do a DU Search for "dfk" he/she's posts are pretty current if you even

scroll back here in DU without a Search.

See what you think...if you are interested enough.

[Deep13]

105. Did she or he die, or just banned from posting? nt

[KoKo]

113. You've been here on DU Awhile...so you know that this is revoking of

posting privileges. The Poster went a step too far, according to the DU Admins.

[Deep13]

182. I guessed. I didn't know. nt

[sabrina 1]

76. I had many disagreements with dfk but s/he was always polite

never resorted to name calling. S/he had her views, many of which I didn't feel were particularly progressive, but if that is why s/he was banned, it makes no sense. There are many on this board right now who support Bush policies and even defend them.

I didn't know s/he was gone, but grave-dancing is a disgusting practice, and I thought it was not permitted. It is cowardly to attack someone who cannot respond.

On most of the early progressive forums if someone was banned, no one was allowed to talk about them anymore. It was a fairness thing, lsomething that seems to be forgotten these days.

Thanks for the thread Willy, I agree with you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Yup

But this is the new and improved DU. A purge is coming

[bluestate10]

106. The only question is who will get purged. There are several natural cliches on DU,

some seem to be fighting to control thought on the site, others aren't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. I am doing my analysis off site

I am worn out from the constant DU bully problem. Not calling for a purge, just mutual ignore.

This could be a solution, as well as going back to moderation and no tolerance for cyber stalking.

But that could work with the most obvious.

And the usual targets will be the lib dems. They, and the LGBT community are the usual targets of those purges.

[Dragonfli]

183. You are absolutely right about the usual targets, I am getting tired of the bullies here

I have seen at least four very obvious purges here over the years and likely missed a few during some of my breaks. There is a recognizable pattern.

I expect it to get worse because the bullies now have their own protected group to gather in and PM each other while compiling there blacklists. I understand why you have pulled away recently, but, it comes in waves that pass and this too shall pass.

See you on the other side of the wave, hopefully we won't lose too many good people as we have in the past.

[nadinbrzezinski]

188. I am worn down actually and they are very well protected

[rhett o rick]

326. But they cant overcome "ignore". Hang in there. nm

[nadinbrzezinski]

327. Oh yes they have

[zappaman]

85. "There are many on this board right now who support Bush policies and even defend them."

For real?
I must have missed those.
What Bush policies are DUers supporting and defending cuz I find that rather hard to believe.
I can't think of a single thing I agreed with that asshat on...

[rhett o rick]

317. Bush supported the Patriot Act and domestic spying. The right-wing still supports the Patriot

Act and domestic spying. Gen Clapper and Gen Alexander were Bush's guys.

[zappaman]

376. yeah but

I don't see DUers "on this board right now who support Bush policies and even defend them."
maybe I'm not in the right forums?

[Rex]

378. Well they were around on DU2 and DU1...but I think we called them trolls?

And they got the pizza pie!

[zappaman]

381. Yeah, but here?

Haven't seen "DUers supporting and/or defending Bush policies", so I guess it's the usual hyperbole from that poster.

But...

[Rex]

383. Dam that looks good and I just ate lunch.

Well that is why I chimed in myself, SO FAR I see a lot of hippie punching on this site - not any Bush policy supporters. So we are in agreement.

[zappaman]

384. Yup

[Rex]

385. Good old fashion hug!

It builds character.

[rhett o rick]

390. Dont you support the Patriot Act? That's a Bush policy. Dont you support domestic

spying? That's a Bush policy.

[zappaman]

402. No.

The Patriot Act is a Bush policy I don't see DUers supporting.
I don't see DUers supporting domestic spying either.

Show me where I'm wrong.

[ScreamingMeemie]

90. +1

It's a football game for some.

[ProSense]

102. Why was it OK to dance

"I didn't know s/he was gone, but grave-dancing is a disgusting practice, and I thought it was not permitted. It is cowardly to attack someone who cannot respond."

...on this grave:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023775248

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=292212&sub=trans

The title of that thread was: Posting Privileges Revoked

There is a lot of hypocrisy here.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

115. good point

[JI7]

140. not only that but many called for anyone who posts in Obama group to be banned

and called out other names in there.

[rhett o rick]

331. "many called for anyone who posts in Obama group to be banned" Really?

I missed that, do you have a link? Many? How many?

[rhett o rick]

330. So do you approve of grave dancing or not? nm

[Bobbie Jo]

382. That's entirely different, you see....

The hypocrisy is strong with this crew.

[Number23]

399. And Prosense for the win

Last edited Sun Oct 27, 2013, 04:27 PM - Edit history (1)

The whining over grave dancing by the same folks who wore out their tap shoes dancing over grahamforanything and Michigandem's demises would be hypocritical if these folks actually stood for or believed in anything besides whining for the sheer hell of it.

Graham was annoying and Michigandem was controversial but neither was clearly a right wing lunatic the way BBI or dkf were. If anything, they pissed some folks off by letting them know that they don't run shit and are not by any means the sole owners and arbiters of the Dem banner the way they endlessly claim they are. It's so fascinating to see the folks all busted up over dkf's tombstoning.

[Bobbie Jo]

413. That thread

Was hands down one of the nastiest displays of mean spirited nonsense that I have ever seen here. To see the same posters hop on this bullshit "above it all" bandwagon is just mind-blowing.

Especially pathetic to see someone stumbling in with such a moronic explanation of the "difference." WTF was that???

Do you think they actually type this shit with a straight face?

[Zorra]

305. I agree that she was the consummate professional.

But when long time posters who are extreme RW trolls are tombstoned, I like to grave dance.

It is a release from the frustration of many years of wanting to scream out "This is an obvious RW troll!", but not being able to because of DU rules.

We usually agree on everything, sabrina1, but I'm very glad to see this extreme RW Wall St. Troll Princess of the Anti-Social Justice Movement Council gone from here.

Why shouldn't I be?

[sabrina 1]

345. No problem, Zorra, I understand. I agree she was a pro

but I assumed no one took her seriously because it was so obvious she was pushing right wing policies, especially regarding social programs. She drove me crazy many times.

I am just expressing how I feel about some of the mean spiritedness that doesn't stop at one thread but often goes on for years afterwards and You better believe it! That kind of nastiness is more what my point was about.

Love your posts and understand the sentiment completely!

[Zorra]

356. ...

We're on the same page, love your posts as well.

[CreekDog]

429. dkf was NOT polite, look at what she said about Trayvon Martin, Muslims,...

Immigrants, whom she thought needed to carry papers in Arizona and everywhere.

oh she was not impolite to you? while she was fluffing George Zimmerman and justifying the killing of Trayvon Martin?

who CARES if she was "polite" to you? is how she treated you what matters?

[we can do it]

86. It's not dead, it's a zombie that will pop back up wit a new name.

[fadedrose]

91. Admit it, WillyT

You're just a nice guy . . .

[WillyT]

397. Oh Alright... I Admit It...

[SamYeager]

94. Surprised this got 7 recs

Actually, no.

I'm not.

[sabrina 1]

123. I'm surprised it didn't get more. This is a compassionate OP, something

we used to expect from Progressives, even for people who did not share our political views.

Kudos to Willy for his decency. Most of us had huge differences of opinion with DFK who seemed to me to definitely have some right wing views. Some of those now dancing on her/his grave didn't have much problem with her/his mostly Right Wing Economic views eg.

Nothing changed with dfk from my memory, she drove Progressives, like me, crazy with her views on eg, SS.

That is not what got her banned, her OP on SS the other day eg. I didn't see much outrage over that, because there are those here who actually agree with those views. THAT if anything, should have been a reason to say goodbye to her. But it never was.

I'm not sure what finally did it, but regardless, she made her points, outrageously right wing as many of them were, especially on SS eg, without personal attacks.

And Willy is right, he is a Progressive and has the strength to show human compassion and that to me anyhow, shines compared to the mocking and joking and piling on behavior that doesn't represent progressive ideals at all.

[ProSense]

132. That thread

"Nothing changed with dfk from my memory, she drove Progressives, like me, crazy with her views on eg, SS.

That is not what got her banned, her OP on SS the other day eg. I didn't see much outrage over that, because there are those here who actually agree with those views. THAT if anything, should have been a reason to say goodbye to her. But it never was. "

...got one rec:

As it is the plan is to cut social security benefits by 25% when the trust funds are spent.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023907606

Who here agrees that Social Security should be cut?

Again, why was it OK to dance on this grave:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023923079#post102

You seem to be implying that doing so lacks "compassion," but you had no problem with doing so in that instance.

I mean, what does "compassion" have to do with a RW troll being banned?

[sabrina 1]

159. That was not grave dancing, did I call that person names, attack

him personally. I had many times pointed out that that person was here to disrupt, while he was still active here. Because it was a FACT. My comment was confirming that, and trust me I could have said much, much more which still would have been simply stating facts.

There are rules on DU, that person came here to trash the Left which was clear from the first day they arrived, and that person posts under several different handles around the internet. That is not grave dancing, it is telling the a truth that many Progressives know.

It was the equivalent of uncovering the ID of James O'Keefe or Rush Limbaugh and when seeing that finally they had been exposed, confirming it.

dfk held views I vehemently opposed, but I do not ever recall her personally attacking another DUer. If she had been here to trash the Left with a long history of doing so, which I was aware of, I would have been in that thread saying so also.

I don't think Grave Dancing is what you think it is.

[ProSense]

161. A thread titled: Posting Privileges Revoked is "grave dancing"

It's celebrating the poster being banned.

[sabrina 1]

179. No, it was not celebrating. It was a reminder that

this was someone who plays those games under various names and has been doing so for a number of years to create havoc on Dem Forums. There was no celebration, just a statement of fact where there was a place to do so. So people might be aware of the notorious MO.

You can do better in the 'gotcha' department I'm sure. This was a below par attempt. I generally don't play gotcha games either, too lazy to spend all that time searching through other people's history, although if someone else points out a hypocrisy I might comment on it especially if it is a glaring and surprising case.

Other than that, my interest is in issues and defending Democratic Policies wherever they need to be defended.

.

[ProSense]

186. A troll is a troll. It was grave dancing any way you slice it. n/t

[sabrina 1]

197. Like I said, not a very good effort at playing 'gotcha'.

I'm disappointed as I like a challenge at least.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

138. I hope you are being genuine. Because that means you are way more forgiving

than most. I mean, if it becomes apparent to the vast majority on DU that this person wasn't merely a person slightly out of step with the DU zeitgeist but was deliberately fanning the flames of dischord and promoting primarily right wing talking points, don't you think that deserves a little loathing?

[sabrina 1]

148. I believe in telling the truth, I don't believe in the Death Penalty eg

or any other cruel and unusual punishment no matter how heinous the crime.

So it's unlikely that I would ever consider 'loathing' someone for holding political opinions I detest and oppose if I can't conjure it up for a murderer.

I am for life in prison to protect the rest of the population for heinous crimes, but I don't believe in engaging in hatred and loathing for anyone, it only damages the spirit of the hater.

There are far more important things in this life to conjure up that much negative emotion. I am satisfied when a murderer is removed from society to protect the society. I don't find it healthy to loathe and hate for any reason.

A deceiver on a political forum gets banned, fine. Loathing for that person? I can't imagine it. Which is why I agree with Willy.

[99th_Monkey]

209. +100 nt

[1000words]

217. nicely done.

Well stated.

[Puzzledtraveller]

150. +1

[WillyT]

398. :loveya:

[sabrina 1]

406. Love you too, Willy

[Rex]

96. You are a better person than I.

She lost me after accusing the IRS of wanting taxes. I kinda like my roads fixed.

[roody]

103. He or she is not dead.

[scheming daemons]

114. Dkf was a RW troll, willy

A long time mole..... Celebrated on conservative cave tonight as a hero.


You were duped.


RW trolls, once exposed, should have their tombstoning celebrated.

[Hekate]

169. I just went over there, and I need a shower

Read a thread with lots of bragging about "hiding in plain sight" among "the DUmmies" and being so embedded etc etc vomit. Who the hell wants to live like that?

[Zorra]

214. Yep. You can't get much farther right than Wall St. nt

[grantcart]

339. Not the first time

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/1002717913


WillyT (49,351 posts)

Do You Think There Should Be A Limit On Grave-Dancing Posts In Meta/Help ???

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by ellisonz (a host of the General Discussion forum).
Especially if the member was here from the beginning ???

If the person in question were truly a troll... then we've been idiots for over a decade.

[Nye Bevan]

127. For quite a few people, it's obvious that this is the best thing that has happened in their lives

for quite some time. Kind of sad, really, but let them celebrate if they want.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

130. yeah. no mischaracterization of posters AT ALL with that statement

lol. people can be happy on a message board and be done with it. To say they have nourished their souls with this PPR is kind of ludicrous.

[BootinUp]

131. Another shocker

You enjoyed that trolls Obama bashing I'm guessing.

[Orrex]

135. Who?

[Chan790]

147. Oh please excuse the bad form of it.

I mean I expect that when the day comes that I shuffle off the DU coil, most likely for one of the assorted ways I've found to tell people to the right of Trotsky on economic issues to fuck off, that there will be people dancing on my grave.

I will them that...I might even sock-up and join them in jigging over my bannination. Who doesn't love a good grave dance?

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. I expect some here to dance if

I actually buy the actual farm

[ScreamingMeemie]

166. I know your name, but I don't know what I'd be dancing for.

Post, forget, and move on. Then there is nothing to dance over.

[1000words]

176. I like your style. Too many folks holding grudges, keeping score.

Nice to see there are some adults here.

[ScreamingMeemie]

207. Thank you. Life is too short.

I freely admit that 7 years ago I would play that game. It's not worth it.

[lastlib]

167. well, then maybe you can empty your bladder on his tombstone.......

I am F*CKING TIRED of the F*ckin' Right-Wingers! The Right is WRONG!!

[Omaha Steve]

177. I can

This Cavers gets no sympathy from me. What happened to that anti R button of long ago?

[MannyGoldstein]

181. I'm a little confused by this banning

and beginning to think I have some sort of piece missing in my brain (I'm sure that many will agree with that!) that prevents me from understanding this.

I'd appreciate some help.

The post that got DKF banned was simply a compilation of excerpts taken from Forbes, LA Times, and Reuters. These are all reasonably mainstream. Was that so awful?

And what views did DKF espouse that were so insane? I've certainly disagreed with her on things, but I never remember her espousing a view that's not widely held by elected Democrats. Although I could be very wrong on this point - I'd appreciate it if anyone can supply links to her posts that were beyond the pale.

Thanks.

[leftstreet]

190. The obituary said 'Enough is Enough'

I'm not familiar with his/her posts enough to know what that means, but I'm guessing it was more than just one post



I saw the poster as a proud pro-corporate, privatizing, labor-hating, social program slashing member here. But s/he certainly isn't the only one

[Dragonfli]

198. You labeled her posts pretty well, I nearly always disagreed with her.

That being said, it was pretty typical "centrist" third way Republican with a D nonsense, and I find it confusing as well. Even more so since those doing the dancing vehemently defend politicians that hold those very same "centrist" views.

[1000words]

200. +1

Well said.

[leftstreet]

201. Exactly

Even more so since those doing the dancing vehemently defend politicians that hold those very same "centrist" views.

I could see pro-labor and anti-privatization people relieved to see him/her gone, but this venomous denouncing and distancing by the very same...oh, wait

nevermind

[MannyGoldstein]

199. Since I don't read DU 24/7, I might have missed things

Or not filed them in my brain.

Or just not "getting it".

But I don't quite "get it".

[zeemike]

208. Well I don't get it ether.

But I did not follow him/her around so I don't really know.
But what I do get is the call for a purge...witch hunt...to rid the place of those that don't think right, and that jumps out at me.
And if I were a troll I would jump on that wagon and turn one against the other at every turn by crating labels that you can tag people with...that has always disturbed me.

[Flying Squirrel]

235. Not being the only one - is not a reason not to ban them

It just means the rest of them haven't been banned yet. Give 'em time. They don't belong here any more than dkf did.

[FSogol]

239. When Better Believe It was PPR'ed by Skinner, he said, "Enough is Enough" too. n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

298. Your last sentence: EXACTLY. DKF inspired debate...

and knowledgeable DUers always came along to set s/he straight. Something was to be learned from those threads, particularly with regard to Social Security and Medicare. I'd much rather that than the vapid Facebook graphic threads -- rah rah!

As someone said downthread, it doesn't matter. S/he will be back. Or another just like s/he will be back. And DUers will challenge s/he yet again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

210. Your piece of brain missing is misplaced with mine

I guess the LA Times is no longer a good source. Given the new owners, anyhoo, just as confused. Reuters you say? I have even quoted Forbes, recently off site actually for some thing they ran that was positively LW. (I know surprising).

Three sources to not post from, or even link. Thanks.

[MannyGoldstein]

215. Well, i'm a *bit* less confused now

I found a few threads where DKF was being a self-righteous nitwit, which never helps to make friends. And one where she was was being an insensitive jerk.

Although I'm still not quite getting this whole thing.

[steve2470]

220. this was the straw that broke admin's back:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3919170

I guess it was a tad too RW and Republican for our long-suffering admins.

[sendero]

238. Wow..

.... I guess I expected something different. I never really noticed this poster particularly. I did read that OP. Some would say that there is value in know what ammo is going to be lobbed at your favorite cookie. I guess not around here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

301. Wonders never cease

LA Times, Forbes and Yahoo (running a Reuters story) are Right Wing sources. Good to know, just a paper of record for one of the US largest cities. I know they are under new ownership, but Jesus.

Add my local Union Trib to questionable sources. The owner is a land developer, far right loon, who bought the paper for advocacy. (I know their reporters but I would almost agree it's not worth the ink or paper it's printed on).

I guess the Chicago Sun Times (right of center editorial page) is off the good sources as well.

Well, wonders never cease. Oh and I will avoid talking to IT guys, they might point out there are indeed problems.

[BainsBane]

324. The member did not appear to be a Democrat

It was not simply that one thread but many, many threads hostile to the President and Democratic Party positions. EarlG's tombstone message was "enough is enough."

[msanthrope]

336. I was hoping you'd post in this thread. Thank you. nt

[dlwickham]

211. nice to see a voice of reason on this

[Zorra]

213. I am. She was smart, and very skilled. "Positively Wall Street".

"In propaganda truth pays... It is a complete delusion to think of the brilliant propagandist as being a professional liar. The brilliant propagandist is the man who tells the truth, or that selection of the truth which is requisite for his purpose, and tells it in such a way that the recipient does not think he is receiving any propaganda...The art of propaganda is not telling lies, but rather selecting the truth you require and giving it mixed up with some truths the audience wants to hear" ~ Richard Crossman

[steve2470]

218. she was the best troll I've ever seen here

She got her points across and managed to dodge the usual landmines. She never insulted anyone or got really pissed that I could tell. She withdrew from arguments when things got really hot. She was a real pro, and I'm pretty confident she's very well paid too.

[Zorra]

297. Yes. The first time I got into it with her years ago, I could not believe that anyone

could have such obvious (IMO) RW corporatist beliefs and still post here.

Yeh, I suppose she'll get a nice bonus, and will be posting here again soon.

Check out his headline/subject line from Forbes that she posted:

Obamacare's Website Is Crashing Because It Doesn't Want You To Know How Costly Its Plans Are!!1!1!1manymore elevens


Ya gotta ask yerself..."What would somebody be trying to accomplish by posting a subject headline and obvious hit piece like that on a Democratic site?" especially with her history. She got greedy, or maybe it was desperation, and Earl G baked her a nice going away pizza.

[nadinbrzezinski]

303. Sorry to say it

But she fits right in with more than a few. We have a clique that does believe in those things.

So yes, the ban is surprising. I would expect moi well before her.

[Zorra]

315. I'm kind of distressed about some of the left leaning folks who I almost always

agree with here apparently not being able to see how transparently extreme RW dkf is and has been. I'm genuinely astonished. Why in the world would we want to have some RWer posting fascist garbage here?

As you know if you’ve been following this space, Obamacare’s bevy of mandates, regulations, taxes, and fees drives up the cost of the insurance plans that are offered under the law’s public exchanges. A Manhattan Institute analysis I helped conduct found that, on average, the cheapest plan offered in a given state, under Obamacare, will be 99 percent more expensive for men, and 62 percent more expensive for women, than the cheapest plan offered under the old system. And those disparities are even wider for healthy people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3919170

The Manhattan Institute is right up there with the Heritage Foundation as proponents and disseminators of New American Fascism.

Manhattan Institute for Policy Research

The Manhattan Institute (MI) is a right-wing 501(c)(3) non-profit think tank founded in 1978 by William J. Casey, who later became President Ronald Reagan's CIA director.[1] It is an associate member of the State Policy Network.

According to the Manhattan Institute, it is "focused on promoting free-market principles" and has a mission to "develop and disseminate new ideas that foster greater economic choice and individual responsibility."[2]

"The Manhattan Institute concerns itself with such things as 'welfare reform' (dismantling social programs), 'faith-based initiatives' (blurring the distinction between church and state), and 'education reform' (destroying public education)," Kurt Nimmo wrote October 10, 2002, in CounterPunch.[3]
snip---
Ties to the American Legislative Exchange Council

The Manhattan Institute's Senior Fellow and Director of its Center for Medical Progress, Paul Howard, spoke at the 2011 American Legislative Exchange Council Annual Conference in a Workshop titled "Rationing By Any Other Name: Medicare's Independent Payment Advisory Board." He co-led the panel with the Pacific Research Institute's Director of Health Care Studies, John Graham (the Pacific Research Institute is also a State Policy Network member)

Manhattan Institute for Policy Research

Welfare reform

The Manhattan Institute was one of the key institutions that pressed for reform of the welfare system in the mid-1990s.[8] Charles Murray's Losing Ground: American Social Policy 1950–1980 (1984) argued that the welfare state had fostered a culture and cycle of dependency that was to the detriment of both welfare recipients and the United States as a whole.[9]

Hydraulic fracturing

The Manhattan Institute is a proponent of the hydraulic fracturing (fracking) method of extracting natural gas and oil from underground deposits. Opponents have been critical of the method owing to concerns that the chemicals involved in it lead to water contamination. In response to calls to ban fracking in parts of New York, the Manhattan Institute released a report in 2011 projecting that allowing fracking could "inject over $11 billion dollars into the state economy".[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy_Research

A good rule of thumb here is: Don't post shit straight out of the Heritage Foundation and/or the Manhattan Institute on democratic underground if you don't want honest lefties and the admins to suspect that you are a RW troll.

[nadinbrzezinski]

320. You do know the post that triggered the ban was quoting the

RW rag called the LA times, and Reuters right. Forbes I sort of concede. But given what many conservadems believe in that exact same frame but support the President to the point of blindness, I expect to be banned well before them. I expect you to be banned as well.

Her only problem was not right wing, was lack of blind allegiance

[Zorra]

341. What I'm saying is that the information originally came from one of the most RW sources

on the planet.

The Manhattan Institute is a fascist think tank. End of story

It's simply not true or credible information. No more credible than printing information that came from a Fox News study conducted by Anne Coulter, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck.

For any major news outlet to distribute it should be cause for suspicion of their motivations. But, of course, it's not like the MSM is exactly owned and operated by the 99%, if you know what I mean.

dkf was a RW troll. End of story. Her tombstoning does not signal a purge of the DU left, and I am a loyal yellowdog Democrat who might piss and moan some about Democrats at times, but when crunch time comes I would not hesitate for a second to vote for a blind possum as long as she had a D after her name.

[nadinbrzezinski]

343. I expect a purge to come, and it will not be people like her

As to sources, you know what? I know shocking, but from time to time even the other side has a valid point.

The problems with the ACA site are real, not imagined.

That is the valid point here. The other valid point is that they will be fixed. But I prefer not to hide my head in the sand.

Do as you wish.

As far as I am concerned, she is far from alone, and this place has a certain center right bent these days, and it has nothing to do with the poster in question. And if that are the wishes of the owners, they should just be open about it.

I see this ban as a test run.

[Zorra]

363. Yes, the ACA website has some problems. But it does not have the problems

that the Manhattan Institute is using as shameless RW propaganda against the Democratic party agenda.

I had some serious issues with the ACA website. I posted what happened andcomplained about them. My complaints were real and valid. I found a way around the problem.

Shit happens. It is what is.

But what it ain't is what the lying sack of shit Manhattan Institute says it is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

366. I guess I will stop reading the LA Times now

What other media should I stop reading and fully go into our own left wing bubble? I mean common dreams and Truth Out should be the only allowed sources I s'pose. Of course that is not the intent, but that is another story.

Yes, the poster in question was not quite friendly to social justice. Or to large government projects, or to government in general, or to labor, or to teachers, or to the POTUS. The last one was her sin. Plenty here repeat that crap and will not be banned because you too should hug the NSA.

Sorry if I am well beyond cynical at this point. I just don't believe that ban came from purely her views. Sorry. I just don't. 2014 will be interesting and I will continue to post analysis off DU. I mean, getting banned for links to mainstream pubs is truly the height of irony here.

Skinner owes me an irony meter. Mine went

[Pretzel_Warrior]

414. what a joke. pathetic.

[QC]

328. Sadly, right wing trolls just don't stand out as much as they used to.

Right wing troll or sensible pragmatic centrist? Who can tell?

dkf was a particularly obvious right wing troll, but her positions were far more mainstream around here than would have been the case just a few years ago.

[Recursion]

221. Nor, apparently, spell her handle correctly? (nt)

[Prism]

222. DKF made one fatal error

She criticized the President.

Had she held the exact same viewpoints while praising the President, she would have been a highly successful poster.

DU is a silly place. I backed Candidate Obama partially because I disdained the personal mandate. Say the exact same thing now, get accused of "right wing talking points."

I've long said, if I ever wanted to troll DU, I would slap on an I Heart Obama sticker and then flame away at liberalism full bore.

I mean, did people see how LGBT people were talked to on here a few years ago?

Tch, silly dkf. You were doing it wrong.

[pecwae]

236. For some,

criticizing = RWer. It's just that simple.

And I remember very well to what happened in the past WRT LGBT. Very well indeed.

[scheming daemons]

242. Dkf's "error" was being a RW troll

He/she is laughing at you on conservative cave and other RW sites.

Dkf was a mole. And you bought it, hook, line, and sinker.

[Prism]

253. I didn't buy anything

Because I never interacted with that poster.

It was pretty easy to do, actually.

[treestar]

250. The President gets so much criticism on DU

That your first statement is so far out of reality, outer space doesn't have room for it.

DKF wasn't really that hard on the president, lasting so long because he did manage to stick to the issues.

[quinnox]

231. he/she (I never could figure that one out) was right about the NSA, but wrong and right winger-ish

on many other topics. Since the NSA spying thing exploded, it kind of camouflaged dkf because they were on the same side as most progressives on this issue.

But no, they were very right wing on tons of other issues. I used to call dkf our permanent conservative resident duer.

[dipsydoodle]

237. Grave dancing is indicative of an otherwise shallow life.

.

[trumad]

240. This thread cracks me up...

Bad form my ass Bad form is pretending to be something that you are not. She or he was no centrist---or to the right of the Democratic party. Horseshit and a half.

I say he or she because he or she used the gender fake as he or she pleased. There's a book load of documentation proving that she or he was nothing more than a Right Wing troll walking the line to tear the democrats apart.

He or she will show up at some Right wing shit hole like Conservative Cave or FR and mock the shit out of us for falling for it the last 10 years. Then the fools in this thread who say poor poor DKF will be mocked by me for being--errrrr---fools.

This is a bookmarked thread and I can't wait to pull it back up in the near future for a great chuckle

Bad form my ass.

[scheming daemons]

244. Dkf and his buddies on conservative cave are laughing at this thread

Willy and others are suckers, and they don't realize it.

[treestar]

245. Interesting that they are more protective of a right winger

than of the "centrists" they so despise.

[Hissyspit]

403. Um, there's plenty of being suckered on all sides.

Some of it quite recent.

For the record, I think and have thought dkf was a troll.

[ProSense]

308. Here's why it should,

hypocrisy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023775248

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=292212&sub=trans

The title of that thread was: Posting Privileges Revoked

IMO, that poster posted some interesting points, but s/he became annoying as fuck in the end. A troll is a troll.

[treestar]

243. Well that's a surprise

Do you miss Better Believe It?

[leveymg]

252. Disagreed with DFK on some things, but never felt she was malicious or played for the other team.

I personally welcome a range of expression on DU, and fear that this is yet another reason to believe that is narrowing and this place is in danger of becoming an echo chamber for the centrist party hacks.

[trumad]

258. Come on---

For the last month especially he or she has posted one op after another with Right Wing talking points going after Democrats and Obama.

When EarlG said enough is enough he was dead on.

We do not allow Right Wing trolls on DU. DKF was a Right Wing troll.

[leveymg]

263. I read the last post, and agree it's over the top, particularly the headline. But, in itself

that was not a hanging offense, IMHO.

It's ultimately Admin's decision who stays and who leaves, but I'd feel better if we were allowed to see a wider sample of offending posts so we could make up our own minds about this. DKF has been around long enough to have something approaching tenure, and that should not be lightly broken.

[trumad]

265. Shit--just do a DU search--type in dkf and have fun.

Let me know when you get to the "Did Lara Logan really get raped" thread.

[leveymg]

271. I went through 4 pages of her diary and see nothing there that meets the troll definition.

If people want to speculate about Lara Logan that's not a banning offense, IMHO.

The burden is on the prosecution to prove the member is ill-intended, a GOP stooge, or so disruptive that it "makes the place suck" (Skinner's memorable definition), not that the member posts articles that are highly critical of party leaders and Administration programs.

Given that you are an active part of the committee that supports this expulsion, perhaps you can put together a sampler that you feel makes the case for 86ing DKF. I would like to see that.

[trumad]

274. Really---that's your comeback?

You want me to put together a list of he or she's OPs to convince you--- I'll say it again---to convince you that he or she should not have been banned.

Snarf.

95 percent of DU is saying---finally--the troll was banned--- 5 percent are saying--- well------what you are saying.

My committee is awful big..... and yours---not so much.

[leveymg]

282. It's not a comeback. I'm not emotionally invested in the outcome.

I just want to understand more about what's behind this, and am becoming increasingly alarmed that people who endorse the decision seem unwilling or unable to provide solid evidence.

Maybe the burden shouldn't be on you to prove that this was justified, but someone (Admin.?) really should lay out the basis for the decision, at least so the rest of the community better understands the boundaries.

I don't think that's asking too much.

[WillyT]

281. What's Ironic... Is...

Some of the ugliness here... trumps almost anything DFK posted.



Stay classy DU...

[leveymg]

309. Here's what I think happened.

It was a decision taken out of a sense that sustained criticism at some point becomes disloyalty. Something about the title of the final post finally went over a line. I can see how that happened.

Ultimately, this is a club under private management. Management deserves the right to refuse service.

And, the sight of blood always brings out the worst in some people, including awkward mob dancing.

[JI7]

394. questioning whether it was really rape ? defending zimmerman ?

birther crap, anti muslim crap.

no, not even close to being as ugly as dkf was

[treestar]

352. So centrist party hacks - should they be banned?

Though you probably won't succeed with that on a site for Democrats.

[leveymg]

386. I'm afraid we'll all end up banning each other.

Then what?

[DiverDave]

254. 250+ replys, for a well hidden troll?

sheesh.

[eShirl]

256. They didn't die, they got banned from a message board on the internet.

Whoopdy-freaking-doo.

[ConcernedCanuk]

432. I dunno if "banned" is the correct term.

.
.

" Whoopdy-freaking-doo. " exactly!

In checking dkf's profile - posting privileges are revoked;

BUT - has 100% chance of serving on a jury?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=127885

Question:

When privileges are revoked, can they be reinstated?

A reasonable question methinks - Many years ago, as in 8 or more, I was banned from posting, but got reinstated after reading and agreeing to the TOS.

I argued less and no further posting restrictions, then the jury system hid posts - so now I argue even LESS than before.

I have many bookmarks for news sources that would not be allowed to used on DU - I RELISH knowing what the "other side" is thinking and saying.

With the number of threads and responses resulting from dkf's posting privileges being revoked - it is quite clear that dkf made quite an impression on DU's membership -

AND - although most are not enamored with dkf's stances -

I bet many learned quite a bit.

I did.

CC

ps: They didn't die, they got banned from a message board on the internet. Whoopdy-freaking-doo.

" Whoopdy-freaking-doo. " exactly!

[Nye Bevan]

257. I think the message is that all DUers are expected to be supportive of Pres. Obama to some extent.

There are plenty of DUers who bash Obama over the NSA, drones, the ACA, and the Trans Pacific Partnership. But it seems that members are expected to balance out such threads by being supportive of the President in other areas. This is what DKF neglected to do.

[trumad]

260. Especially this last month

He or she simply let the mask drop and Admin said goodbye.

Although for many, that mask dropped a long long time ago.

[JoePhilly]

262. What do you think dfk was trying to say in this thread from the other day ...

Read the OP, then read DFK's approach to discussing it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1040&pid=4574

[trumad]

270. The Righties have gone more bat shit over ACA than any other issue that I can remember.

I mean bat shit crazy. dkf is no different.... He or she has gone so bat shit crazy that he or she dropped he or she's mask.

[demmiblue]

259. Zimmerman apologist, anti- "ground zero" mosque arguer, birther appeaser...

"Lara Logan: Was She Actually Raped?" poster.

Amazing he lasted so long... good riddance.

[trumad]

261. Here's the link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x435572

I remember that OP and wanted to reach through the net and choke he or she for posting it.

[leveymg]

273. It's a link to an article in the Village Voice (hardly RW) that asked that very question.

Look, I agree that questioning a rape account is a sensitive subject, but Logan is a public figure and made her career as an enthusiastic embedded media supporter of US military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. In other words, she's a top-shelf professional propagandist. If a DU member wants to link an article in a reputable media that questions Logan's veracity, that is not in itself a trollish thing to do. Maybe, playing with fire, but not a banning offense.

[trumad]

275. Please try to understand

this was the troll known as dkf strategy here on DU. Inflammatory OPs with a huge bent toward Right Wing talking points.

[leveymg]

278. I am trying to understand all sides in this, but the point is, there seems to be more than one side

that reasonable people (who have the best interests of this community at heart) can take in this case. That, in itself, mitigates against banning someone.

The fact that DKF never had a jury go against her, I believe, is considerable evidence of that.

[trumad]

279. There isn't all sides...

The vast majority called her a troll and she got banned for being a troll. A very very small minority think she or he was just fine.

You're in the very very small minority and you're wrong.

[leveymg]

285. Everyone here is part of the community and we ALL define what's acceptable

I may end up agreeing with you and the seeming majority-- it could be that a lot people are afraid to question the decision or "go against the flow" or simply don't understand it, so don't want to get involved.

I don't think we should be banning someone just because a majority seem to disagree with a particular post or critical position taken by a Member. That goes for 2nd Amendment issues and the ACA, which are where DKF seems to have gotten into trouble and offended people.

[treestar]

349. She managed to stay polite and on issue

Didn't lose her temper.

This is like BBI who simply posted and then made short comments. Lasted a long time, since no DUer bashing.

[uponit7771]

306. +1

[LWolf]

276. Not acting like an adolescent bully is a good thing.

[JaneyVee]

283. I'll do it for you.

[Whisp]

307. The ultimate dance vid for those Special Occasions:

[Marrah_G]

369. omg I loved that!!!!

[Whisp]

372. One of my all time favourites for a pick me up.

My happy/song dance vid.

It was Mira who brought it to attention - I believe she posted it in Artists a while back.

Makes my heart flutter.

[edhopper]

284. I am sorry for not knowing,

but who was DFK.
I take it she/he was a controversial poster here?

[99Forever]

287. Agreed.

Tho I often wondered why that person was allowed to post as she did, I guess I just am not mean-spirited enough to delight in her expulsion. I'll that leave sort of thing to Republicans.

[Vinnie From Indy]

289. I have already made provisions for a nice, level dance floor on my grave.

Full service bar, blinky lights, fire twirlers, awesome sound and a large pool with sharks that have laser beams attached to their heads. Should be quite a party!

[Inkfreak]

292. None of it matters

That same poster is most likely reading & posting on DU already. And no, it's not me. If someone spent all this time at DU, why would anyone think a ppr of a username would somehow stop that person from returning. I suppose it's symbolic...I just don't care. I ignore shitty posts & threads.

I get what you're saying and I can respect that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

295. You are wrong

I know many very liberal dems who were banned in a few purges who never look at the site again. Among them my brother in law. I keep in contact with more than a few on twitter and Facebook.

[scheming daemons]

319. Dkf wasn't a liberal dem.... So your anecdote doesn't apply

Dkf was a RW troll... And like most RW trolls, Dkf won't leave, she'll find a new sock puppet.

[Bluenorthwest]

300. dfk was an inconsistent contruct, a fictional creation who could not even keep their own

fictional back story in order. Some of dfk's 'views' were very similar to the views of many DU center right type posters, but those views were not authentic. dfk was playing a game that many play on DU from a variety of affected points of view. Like most who attempt that game, dfk was not nearly good enough at the supporting skills to fool anyone who reads for the writer's voice more than the writer's claims of opinion.
dfk affected so many various financial positions in life it was hilarious. If dfk was presented as a character for a drama, the author of that character would be fired for lack of ability. dfk simply did not ring true. A pose made by a Republican, intended to divide and annoy DU members.
Dancing about the departure of a fictional member is optional, but really sort of silly.

[Octafish]

322. There are a lot of other cool kids who should see the ziggy.

More than a couple I'd like to see have gone long ago, friends of the Dude.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

335. A few points

1) I am usually to the left of everybody I have met in my life.
2) I scored -5s on the political compass which puts me somewhere to the left of Gandhi.
3) That means I ain't no centrist (LOL)
4) I sometimes find myself outflanked on my left here.
5) dkf was a cagey fella/gal. Sometimes his/her posts had a decidedly right wing slant. I didn't know if he/she was a right winger or a gadfly.
6) I hope the ACA works because it's President Obama's signature achievement and the fate of the party is linked to its success...

[msanthrope]

338. Willy, I thank you for this thread!! I read it after I finished my grave dance.nt

[grantcart]

344. Yes it is an epic in its own right.

[msanthrope]

347. I am not surprised at the cortège. nt

[grantcart]

351. No but the innocence of a few reminds me of Lassie,

Remember when you were young and watched Lassie and then one day you read a TV Guide article and discover at the age of 9 that there had been like 14 different dogs that played Lassie.

Kind of like that.

[msanthrope]

357. I know, I know...."what do you mean dfk was a Zimmerman apologist? She was soooooo

principled on (insert appropriate purist talking point here.)"

[grantcart]

359. What do you mean that Lassie in the Miller family is not the same as the Martin family?

or

What do you mean that there were two different Darren's in Bewitched? I know for a fact that the first name of Darren in every episode was "Dick".

[Number23]

400. Nor am I. But the folks who are thrashing in this thread but who danced with joy when Lozo

and/or Michigandem were tombstoned and who have been blatantly, LOUDLY called out on their hypocrisy and are reduced to playing a very bad game of "but, see. Uh, that's not the same at all!!1 Um, what had happened was..." is nothing short of delicious.

I mean this thread was a fairly spectacular fail by a not even subtle coterie of folks but some of the idiotic responses ("just 'cause I was giddy in Michigandem's gravedance thread and now I'm chastising everyone giddy in dkf's does not impugn me honor!1&quot has me laughing my ass off.

[Bobbie Jo]

404. It's astonishing to see

The lengths they will go to in order to preserve their delusions of "principled" self-righteousness.

You simply can't have an honest discussion with people like this, they don't have the ability to own up to anything. Ever.

Fake. Fake. Fake.

[Number23]

411. "You simply can't have an honest discussion with people like this"

You simply can't have an honest discussion with people like this, they don't have the ability to own up to anything. Ever.

The ever loving truth if ever there was any. A lesson I have LONG since learned which is why I stopped bothering trying to reason with these foolish people a long time ago. They are such caricatures that they are really worthy only of laughter and are not people I take seriously in the least.

[ScreamingMeemie]

410. I was "giddy" in neither thread. I hate these threads because it is typically

the beginning of a witch hunt. ProSense's cut and pastes? Well, ProSense was wrong. Sorry Number23. Perhaps it's time to not make DU such a big part of your life, if you find lies about others delicious.

[Number23]

412. And you are...??

And what lies have I have said? That folks that were giddy in Michigandem's thread are some of the main ones chastising folks in this one? That is no lie. It is the truth and more than one person has noted that. If that doesn't apply to you then why leap up to respond to my post?

If the fact that this thread is full of hypocritical fuckwittery upsets you then perhaps it may be time for you to take your own advice and take a step back from this place and take one of those long breaks you keep mentioning you have to take for your own health and happiness. And right back at you.

[ScreamingMeemie]

420. "And I am" none of your business.

You see? Some of us don't think so much about this stuff. We're not here to take notes. In 11 years, I have never seen such petty idiocy in m life.

Why leap up to respond to your post? Because it isn't true for a good majority of us here on DU, and those who insist on DU should find another place to play these games.

Well, I guess I told you "who I am..."

"one of those long breaks you keep mentioning..." When you know these kinds of things about a poster you claim not to know, you probably should take a break.

[Number23]

425. Yeah, you think "so little" of this stuff you've probably posted damn near a dozen damn

times in this thread. To people who are not responding to you or even thinking about you in any way, shape or form. Go pester someone else. I have no idea what your issue is and I don't have even the tiniest bit of interest in finding out.

Numerous people have noted the hypocrisy in this thread, people that I know and are much more interested in than you. 400+ replies and barely 30 recs but you keep acting as though everything is honky dory and it's the folks noting the hypocrisy that have the problem. As I said, if the fact that this thread is full of laughably hypocritical assery is so problematic for you, go take one of those long breaks you keep going on and on and on about. Would suit me fine.

Edit: Make that "you've posted damn near THREE DOZEN times in this thread." Yeah, I can tell this is something that takes up very little of your time and mental energy. Such focus and energy on something so utterly meaningless all the while suggesting that OTHER people are the ones that need to take a break. Amazing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

342. The supposition that got him tombstoned didn't make any sense

According to dkf President Obama sabotaged his own website so people couldn't use it and find out how bad the Affordable care Act is.

If that was his intention I think he would have divined that they would eventually find out and think both the ACA and the website sucked .


dkf was being too clever by half...


Weird...

[LadyHawkAZ]

360. I can, and I'm not sorry a bit

Good riddance to bad wingnuts.

[great white snark]

373. You'd dance if part of his or her schtick was supporting Obama.

Me? I'm dancing the fuck out of my carpet.

[whopis01]

379. Why do you feel the need to apologize? n/t

[notadmblnd]

380. That person may be gone, but there's already another who has picked up the torch

and is running with it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

409. Well I guess people can now go grab their notebooks and write that name down...

This post is exactly why I hate grave-dancing threads.

[WinkyDink]

423. dkf.

[applegrove]

426. Who is this DFK? I don't think I've ever

seen them. Or is it dkf?

[OregonBlue]

427. That's okay. Many of us will dance a little extra so you don't have to!!

[CreekDog]

431. you don't even know their screename, what's your opinion on this topic worth?

zero. you can't be bothered to know who you're talking about?

you want a medal?