DU needs to be more accepting of differing view points (it is a cornerstone of Liberalism)

[Harmony Blue]

I rarely agree with anyone on this site. My points of view are different and not the norm that most of society has set up. But I was raised to question traditional norms and to look for progressive solutions to our problems instead of reverting to pre-historic norms that our species sub conciously reverts to. Socrates always questioned the people around him and the state of Athens. He was so critical of Athens at one point that he was put to death by Athens for "corrupting the youth". But Socrates had a point in that you must examine yourself and look inward or else doom looms on the horizon. Critical thinking skills are the most important skills you can acquire from school. But public schools are under attack because they go against traditional norms and try to broaden a students view point and horizons. We must stand vigilant and understand that what separates Democrats from Republicans is that our party is a melting pot of ideas and backgrounds. We should not revert to an echo chamber like the Republicans have done ,and they are unable to connect with the ordinary American citizen, or citizen of this world beyond the borders of the U.S. My understanding of issues is examining all sides of the issue then making a decision based with the information I am armed with (No I don't own a gun). If someone was to ask me what the meaning of life is I would say it is to accumulate knowledge and pass that knowledge onto the next generation. That is the only tradition I feel that is worthy of continuing. But, to continue that cultural knowledge, we must be able to understand different view points, so that, we can strengthen our own view points as a result.

The reason why Russell Brand and many people in his age bracket and lower feel this way is simply because it has some truth to it. Our political system hasn't been completed subverted by an elite oligarchy yet, but it is underway. Shouting down people trying to point this out is counter productive or even implying that they are conspiracy theorists. The occupy protests are often cited as failed attempts to make changes, but they did make the 99% and 1% concept ingrained in the minds of many which derailed Romney when he made his gaffe, or blurted out his true feelings about most Americans. The NSA leaks backlash caused the world to re-evaluate how they do business with the U.S. and the U.S. government to be more transparent...a halllmark of democratic nations. The backlash to war with Syria forced a situation where the world leaders had to come to terms with an alternative. So, what we must communicate to Russell Brand and those turned off by voting is that changes take time and that it requires a bit of work from we the people. We are the government...we just merely send reps and delegate this power on our behalf so we can go onto our daily lives. But it does not mean we stand quietly in the corner when we disagree with something and we are able to wield this power if we choose to do so at anytime. The United States is unique in that it is still on its first Republic and big part of that is if you look at the history it is filled with people questioning traditional norms. This is by no accident, and why the Democratic party is considered the progressive party. Historically the Republican party has lost its way and is no where near what the Grand Old Party used to be. They are just a shell of its former self trying to cling to traditional norms that have no place in a dynamic, melting pot society anymore.

Traditional Republican Christians attack me all the time but I am able to thwart their scathing attacks because I am armed with information and understand their points of view. I am a white, Christian male and yet I do not identify with anything of the traditional sense. I am 30 years old, not married, and I do not feel like I need to have children (For those wondering I am not alone in this sentiment in my age bracket). This throws conservatives in a tizzy but I am able to thwart their attacks by simply being logical and calm with reason. Marriage to me is a joke from a Christian perspective because if you have ever attended a Christian wedding the words slave and servant are used all the time to describe the woman's duties. To me that makes no sense, but Republican Christians accept it as if that is part of the fabric of their bubbled universe. I question it because no free human being should be a slave or servant to anyone because that is an integral part of our Republic. Marriage from a provider point of view seems pointless and I am more like the Japanese herbivore men where they see that working 60 hours a week with little spare time to just raise a family is not a life I want to live. It does not mean I belittle those that choose to do so, but I am often belittled for not wanting that type of life though. Corporations are reeling in horror when they see my age group and younger not wanting to work many hours or be providers. I am able to work a reasonable amount of hours and then have plenty of free time on my own to pursue endeavors that I like...water painting for example. Corporations have been pushing people to the brink with lower wages/salaries for years, and now the backlash has commenced. Most of us have realized our financial independence is achieved by doing two things: 1. Reducing consumption of materialistic and packages items or foods 2. Not falling into the worker drone paradigm. If I have a roof over my head, bills are paid, food, and my happiness why would I want to put myself in a precarious position and be in the mercy of a corporation? These corporations are starting to feel the backlash as my generation and younger generations as they were not raised in a union environment. However, because of the demonizing of unions by these corporations the blowback is that workers do not have loyalty to corporations either. And what else is there that blowback is upon the horizon for the conservative traditionalists? The ethnic and racial demographics of our society is becoming more multi cultural. They often wrongly assume that I will agree with their racist dialogue because I am white. They are wrong, time after time...they are able to confide into me their buried hatred for those that are not white assuming that I will not object or I will identify with their views. I know better because a lot of these stereotypes don't hold up based on my experiences. I counter their scathing remarks because I understand the irrational fear that whites have about other races and ethnic groups. I challenge them as to why they need so many guns for home defense, or why they need to emphasize so much importance on being with other whites. I express to them that you can't learn anything from just staying in your comfort zone as you have to explore outside of it to learn. And the more you learn the less you are to fear of what you don't know. There are whites that feel that their world is shrinking and in danger of being "attacked" thus why they are flocking to pick up arms and bullets for the "inevtiable collapse" of the society that they ("whites&quot built supposedly. This to me is supremely irrational but it is very real as I have attended gun shows and this is a common sentiment amongst the majority of whites that attend these shows in Florida. Especially near northern Florida close to the Georgia border where this sentiment is sky high. If you are not convinced that racism is driving gun sales I have bad news for you as I have seen it myself with my owns eyes. To fight this fear, we must equip ourselves with knowledge, compassion and empathy instead. And I have had success guiding younger males that were heading down this destructive path. It is because I can hone into why this fear is there as irrational as it may be. But more importantly explain the nuances that make it up.

In closing, it seem to me that people try to label me all the time. I don't always practice Sophistry, however given how our society is trying to gravitate into a world with less critical thinking skills, less questioning of authority and less communication with those that disagree with the conventional norms, it is not a bad idea from time to time. It is healthy from my view point to question everything (a cornerstone of science btw), and anything even if it is a conventional norm. This is why science is being attacked so much. Science isn't about yes or no answers and the answers are not clear cut. Even with the latest IPCC report (I have been told this was the final one) the certainty that humans are fueling global climate change is 95-100% certain. Still, there is room for error and scientists will question it with valid reasons. But the irrational will question it all for the wrong reasons on the other hand. Don't be afraid to ask questions with those that have differing view points. Don't be afraid to hear those with differing view points. I do not believe in purity tests, because that promotes a bubble mentality. However, there are some principles you have stand on. And the utmost principal that I will defend is accumulating knowledge so I can pass it on to the next generation.

[safeinOhio]

1. Empathy….

is one of the cornerstones of mental health.

[BlueToTheBone]

2. Sophistry

1. the use of fallacious arguments, esp. with the intention of deceiving.

How is that a liberal concept?

[Jackpine Radical]

28. I think the unsophisticated think sophistry has something to do with sophistication.

As in a sophisticated argument. At least that's how I took it.

While we're picking on the OP, I would say that paragraphing is also a nice feature when it's used here and there to break up a monolithic bloc of text.

[BlueToTheBone]

44. I admit I didn't read most of the

long strings of words, because as you note, it's much easier to read shorter paragraphs; but the fact that the poster uses sophistry, with a capital S kind of made me wonder what the heck was going on.

[Jackpine Radical]

47. To use another "soph" word,

the whole thing struck me as rather sophomoric. I think he's trying to say he doesn't often find himself in agreement with the rest of us because he looks at all sides of the issue and applies intelligence and whatnot.

[BlueToTheBone]

52. You are such a good person to have read all

that he had to say. So, it does sound like sophistry is his bag after all. Sophomoric is truly an apt term!

[Harmony Blue]

78. Actually had you read what I wrote yourself you would see

that I subscribe to the Socratic method. But you also have to be versed in Sophistry to appreciate the Socratic method. I personally wouldn't hire a defense lawyer if she/he didn't comprehend the concept of Sophistry. Just my two cents.

I am not a politician or a lawyer so I do not subscribe to Sophistry primarily, but I yearn for knowledge and I learn different points of view. Our current politicians in office are well versed in Sophistry though. But some choose to politically misdirect for the greater good of society supposedly.

Our politicians are celebrated as heroes/celebrity status for practicing Sophistry while Scientists are considered nobodies in our society now. This is not a good direction for our society.

[enlightenment]

83. Not to criticize -

you have, within a long and unnecessarily digressive post, some good points.

That said, let's be clear. You may subscribe to the Socratic method, but you were not applying it in that post. That would require - simply - asking questions rather than simply informing your reader of your position. Even Sophism requires the use of the rhetorical.

What you have given your readers is some insight into your character and personality as you see it, which is interesting, but not a particularly strong argument for your position. The position of acknowledging different points of view is a good one; lock-step is hardly a progressive value; but you need to tweak your argument to be less about you and more about your primary point.

[Harmony Blue]

92. The rhetorical isn't explicitly stated or implied

however I am examining myself and asking question of why about my life experiences which leads to my conclusion that I am more uncertain than ever before! That is the point of asking why and examining yourself as it shows that lockstep absolute thinking is truly futile and this how the Socratic method dismantles it.

Primary point is we all have to ask ourselves our own questions about who we are and what we believe. I could ask why is Social security chain CPI part of the discussion for the Democratic party or free trade agreements? But there are plenty of threads expressing this frustration and asking why?

[enlightenment]

95. Asking yourself questions

is great, but it isn't necessary to share that process with everyone. Self-examination is really better kept to yourself.

[BlueToTheBone]

87. HarmonyBlue

you seem to have a good heart. Lots of words, but a good heart. My fav Socrates quote is Know Thyself. Strip away all the words and who are you? And who is it that thinks that is so?
Namaste

[ChazII]

3. K&R in hopes

of more discussion.

[Lex]

4. A reasonable alternate viewpoint is one thing, but conservative agit-prop

has no place here. If you want to engage in a shout fest with conservatives, there are plenty of other places on the internet to do that.

[Hutzpa]

7. +1

The conservatives and to some extent emoprogs have this tendencies to go to forums and request
that a format that has been successful be changed to suit their agenda.

There is no chance of them succeeding, but nothing will stop them from trying. It is annoying and stifles
valid discussions.

[Harmony Blue]

11. What is an emoprog?

A progressive that shows empathy?

Any clarification would be welcomed.

[Hutzpa]

30. Austerity loving conservatives

who thinks they're Liberals.

http://www.google.com/search?q=emoprog&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=

Google can help you too.

[stevenleser]

32. No, the term is used by them, they are not called emoprogs

The definitions say that Austerity loving conservatives who think they are Liberals call more progressive people "Emoprogs"

[Blue_In_AK]

59. Interesting that you use a pejorative

that you don't even know the meaning of. Certain people throw that term "emoprog" around here to mock the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party.

[Harmony Blue]

69. This is true

and it usually comes from center right Democrats.

[Hutzpa]

79. I hope you're not labeling me a center right democrat. nt

[Harmony Blue]

80. Nope

but I have heard it come from those that are part of the DLC establishment.

I asked for clarification to your definition because word usage varies depending on venue and circumstances. Emoprog carries a slightly different meaning outside of DU, but at DU it is used to slander liberals/progressives that are passionate about an issues or idea.

Without passion this leads to apathy and that is pretty much a bad thing for Democracies because it leads to lower voter turnout and participation in protests or activism.

Passion is also what drives grassroot movements, which is why Dean was quickly cut down by the establishment.

[treestar]

36. Someone who wants a very progressive state

and gets angry that we don't have it with the present voters and blames the leaders of the Democratic party for not forcing it somehow.

[demwing]

54. It's a slur

designed to denigrate progressives that the term's users deem to be too emotional, and lacking in pragmatism.

[Silent3]

24. Some people act like there's a "spot the agit-prop!" prize, however...

...with snap judgement being highly important to this obnoxious game, with bonus points for the amount of contempt shown for anything or anyone that's deemed out of line.

[etherealtruth]

5. This is a liberal site

while I enjoy a variety of opinion and differing points of view ... there is a limit.

I do not come to a "liberal" site in order to discuss traditional conservative points of view (i.e. defend liberal view points) ... I am not afraid of conservative views... I am annoyed when I am forced to read the defense of these views and positions here.

When I want general political discussion (discussion/ promotion of all viewpoints in the political spectrum) I go elsewhere.

[rurallib]

12. conservative views are quite easy to find

liberal views much harder.
If I want conservative views I can turn on any TV or radio station with only a few exceptions.
Can't remember who said it but our media covers the spectrum of views from the right to the very, very far right.

[etherealtruth]

29. Thank you for you response

That is exactly why I phrased my post as I did.

[Silent3]

27. What is or is not a liberal point of view is not precisely defined

And even if it were, since a lot of people don't pass anyone else's purity tests, what degree of purity do you expect before you think someone should be shouted down or booted out?

[etherealtruth]

31. Did you actually read what I wrote?

I chose my words carefully, as I wanted to avoid the pat and unreasoned response of "what kind of purity test...."


"traditional conservative points of view" are quite easily defined ... do you really need an enumerated list? I can provide a start for you:

1) women's rights over their reproductive health .... conservatives seek to restrict or destroy this right

2) Voting rights .... conservatives seek to limit those able to vote ... they support laws that disenfranchise groups of voters

3) Civil rights ... conservatives refuse to acknowledge when groups of people have their civil rights infringed or deny that the rights of others have been infringed i.e. conservatives oppose laws insuring equal protections for all people (often with cries of "special protection&quot ... this is evidenced in themes of racism, sexism, homophobia


I could list many, many more .... but, I really shouldn't have to at a liberal site

... and yes ... I do believe that someone spouting conservative garbage should be shouted down or booted

[etherealtruth]

39. As a second response this may help you understand

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023925392#post22

[L0oniX]

45. Since the GOP is self destructing ...the degree of purity is going up ...the big tent is not needed.

[rhett o rick]

62. I doubt that you recognize the irony in your post. This is a liberal site. Liberals

believe in open discussion with differing opinions. That includes conservative views. If you narrow the focus then it no longer will be liberal.

Curious, do you think support of the Patriot Act is liberal or conservative?

[etherealtruth]

64. In answer to the patriot act question

I find it neither. I find it reprehensible and I think both sides find all or much of it that way. That question is almost as meaningful as: What is cuter a puppy or a kitten?

I find the remainder of your post odd. You find it ironic that when one wishes to escape assault from right wing opinions (and often right wing nuttery) they would seek out a discussion forum dedicated to supporting the Democratic party and liberal ideas. Where would one go as a safe haven?

Discussing the flaws associated with right-wing positions is consistent with this site's stated purpose. Promoting the same ideas is not.


When I wish to debate opinions and positions from all over the political spectrum I am drawn to other forums. My expectation is that I will debate abortion, religions place in our country (no place in our government), gay rights and all other civil rights .

I carefully leave the definition of liberalism to others ... I will stick with defining traditional right wing positions and 'talking points' and be opposed to their presence here.

General political discussion forums are can be very good ... if that is what DU is then so be it (noting that is not what DU is promoted as).

Numerous other threads have been posted today regarding the nature of DU (a nature that can only truly be decided by its administrators). It appears to have been brought on by the banning of dfk (the banning of dfk is a situation that I am indifferent to)

[DrewFlorida]

6. It has been my experience here on DU that many people simply try to win arguments at any cost.

Without regard for the validity of any other points of view. Rigid arrogant abusive exchanges take place rather than intelligent reasoned discussions, many times it feels like a TeaPartyish atmosphere.

[zeemike]

8. I agree with you.

When you start making purity tests it takes on a life of it's own, and destroys critical thinking.
I don't want this site to become like a right wing site where everyone just repeats the talking points endlessly, and attacks those that question them.

[trumad]

9. First off...paragraphs can be your friend.

Second: if conservatives could offer ideas in a reasonable manner...then great...it might work. Problem is...they can't. ....problem is...the majority of the new Right are stinkin douchebags.

[L0oniX]

43. I don't mean to defend them but ...what is DU so afraid of? The ignore function works.

Any so called disrupters would be stomped on and proven to be morons. I don't get it. It wouldn't bother me anymore than the Boggies do. The ignore function has no limits.

[trumad]

46. obviously you have never been on a forum that allows it all

Trust me... it turn into a pile of shit quickly.

[etherealtruth]

49. There is nothing wrong with general political discussion boards

One expects to encounter all opinions across the political spectrum. it can be fun ... it can be challenging ... if that is what you are looking for.

DU, however, is purported to be a discussion board with a much more narrow focus .... not motivated by "fear' but motivated by something more akin to a "common core of beliefs" ... DU has traditionally drawn folk that wanted to participate on a board with that theme.

It is up to the administrators whether they want a board devoted to the broad general discussion of all things political or whether they want a liberal discussion board. it is up to them ... ass it is up to members to decide what kind of board they choose to participate on.

[99Forever]

10. Nonsense.

A false equivalency at best.

All arguments are not equal. Being a liberal does NOT mean I must pretend they are.

[Harmony Blue]

13. You miss the point

your position as a liberal is strengthened when you can contrast that from the conservative position. Furthermore explain what that contrast is and why you believe in. All arguments are not equal which is true, but belittling an argument doesn't help the other person understand your argument either. As a result, in a reaction they will irrationally belittle your argument.

[leftstreet]

14. By that reasoning, DU should let GOPers post here

strengthen the liberal position...

[Harmony Blue]

18. It is not my site

however, we are going towards a dangerous territory with purity tests. A lot of the current establishment of sitting Democratic senators and congress reps are supporting the right wing concept of "reigning in entitlements" for example. That to me is not in the domain solely of the conservative movement as it is happening in our own party(D) with our own reps! We must not be afraid to discuss openly what we oppose or else we will weaken ourselves over the long haul.

[leftstreet]

20. It seems those viewpoints are already represented here

Sorry, I think I was confused by your statements

The pro-corporate privatizing viewpoint is so overwhelmingly present here, in order to have balance DU would need to recruit members of the Communist party

[Historic NY]

26. Have you ever read the Terms of Service..

"Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here. Neither are certain extreme-fringe left-wingers, including advocates of violent political/social change, hard-line communists, terrorist-apologists, America-haters, kooks, crackpots, LaRouchies, and the like."

That is all..........

[Drew Richards]

71. BS false equivelency there are no purity tests there is a TOS that has been here with

Little editing for over 10 years...you dont agree with the TOS ..dont let the door....

[L0oniX]

42. Letting GOPers post here ...hmmm So are we to believe they would convert any of us if they were...

allowed to speak/post? Even without the panzy ass jury system they would be pounced on and ridiculed ...and the old mod system was light years better IMO. I have to ask just what possible harm is being imagined.

[99Forever]

17. Ahhh bullshit.

The Teapublicans get plenty of venues to spout their horseshit without doing it here.

You want to roll in the mud with those asshats, fine, go do it in their sty. I don't care to debate with stupid, they don't learn anything anyway. Facts are irrelevant to idiots.

And I don't give a shit what they "belittle."

[SoCalDem]

68. Amen.. Harboring righties here is like having Mom invite

the kids who bully you at school to your birthday party

[Hutzpa]

33. Your reasoning is off

depends on what topic or subject is being discussed. I can't allow you to walk into my house and
asked to be abused, not going to happen. That is what you're trying to project but in a discreet
kind of way.

If I decided to visit a republican site ( just the thought) I'm doing it with the sole intention
to be part of a like minded group that discusses republican agendas and perspectives.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. We tolerate 3rd Way, "moderate", and "conservative", Democrats here.

And, even urge people to vote for them and applaud them when they are in office.

[Harmony Blue]

19. That is the thing...many have center right beliefs

but we don't run them off as a result. The Democratic party is a large tent of ideas whether progressive or conservative. Purity tests don't make sense from my view.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. It's hypocrisy.

[L0oniX]

41. With the self destruction of the GOP, the "large tent" is not needed or wanted (tolerated) anymore.

[reddread]

89. quite right

we aint seen nothin yet.
prepare for the great migration.

[Hutzpa]

34. I think you have it confused

People support a third way candidate for the simple reason that they are the best of both worlds.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. But, the OP was talking about liberals and a "liberal" site.

Which, should disqualify 3rd Way, conservatives, and moderates. But, doesn't. And, as a "liberal" board it shouldn't be "supportive" of conservatives, and moderates, come election time. But, it is.

[Hutzpa]

77. Agreed to the point of third way liberals

being disqualified, but I disagree with supporting conservative democrats hence my initial point. If
you recall must of our problem during the Clinton years and to some extent Bush II bamboozling
Congress into war was helped by blue dog democrats whom are seen as too conservative from our
side, they were also responsible for the debacle the health care suffered during the early voting
and debate of Obamacare, they can also be disruptive when it comes to pushing for progressive/
liberal agendas.

So, my answer to your question is No! it will not help our debate here on DU, it will
instead create a stench of an atmosphere, so it is best to have like minded people fighting for the
same goals.

I don't support having them within our party, but if they're our only chance of winning a constituents,
local or state election? Then they will have my vote with the hope that the party will always have them
under a tight leash. Recruiting the right candidate will remove all these problem in my opinion, it should
be our priority.

[Fumesucker]

58. So what are the parts of the Republican agenda you find appealing? n/t

[Hutzpa]

73. lol.. C'mon dude

you seriously asking me that? I must have been obfuscating because I don't recollect insinuating that
I find any republican candidate appealing.

[randr]

16. While you imagine you rarely agree with others on this site,

I imagine most people on this site agree with you.
Having been 30 and very sure of myself at one time, I hope to pass on a bit of wisdom your way.
Nothing lasts forever, not even our views of the world. It is your open mind that allows alternative ideas to change you.
Do not be surprised that you may be as different in a decade as you are from who you were a decade ago.

[Harmony Blue]

21. I am more unsure of myself at 30 than at 20

and what you says rings true. The more I learn the more I realize the more uncertain I am. But this uncertainty is more truthful about our existence than the society we build to create a sense of security.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Correct, and then there are facts on the ground

that make you understand why people hold the distrust of government they do.

But empathy and open minds are a rare quantity in a highly partisan environment. IN that sense DU is part of that larger body politic, one that is not healthy.

[bvar22]

60. And some of us still have the same VALUES we had at a very young age.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be [font size=3]established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.[/font]

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.
FDR, SOTU, 1944

Please note the FDR specified the above as Fundamental Human Rights,
and NOT Commodities to be SOLD to Americans by Private Corporations.

I embrace these Values, and have held them consistently throughout my life,
without reservation or equivocation.
Some things do not change.

[Nay]

85. I'm with you, bvar. My views have not changed from these, but I can surely

see that the bulk of the US population, through lack of education (and miseducation from media outlets), has abandoned FDR's principles and adopted whatever 'principles' are told to them by those who wish to separate their money and autonomy from them.

It's a hard thing to watch.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. This site was that a while ago

not anymore, and I do not expect it. When people are banned for posting links to mainstream sources something is wrong.

And yeah, she did have some very far right wing views, and she is not alone. She just was critical of POTUS, I guess if she embraced POTUS there would be no issue.

[Paladin]

35. Sorry, but this "Cornerstone of Liberalism" ploy got old a long time ago.

It's been used over and over again by political opponents in an effort to dilute and neutralize liberal beliefs. It turns up fairly often in DU gun threads---"If you were a real liberal, you'd....", "How can you call yourself a real liberal if....", "Not very liberal of you to say that...." are some of the common kick-off phrases. I may tolerate repugnant political views, but I damn sure don't feel compelled to believe or support those repugnant stances in any way, shape or form.

[Laelth]

96. +1. n/t

-Laelth

[treestar]

37. All I know is that not voting harms Democrats

and enables Republicans. Why else would they try to suppress the vote? Anyone who talks of not voting is supporting the Republicans,whether they intend to or not. And it's unreasonable.

[Laelth]

97. Quite so. n/t

-Laelth

[L0oniX]

40. It's good to have hopes, goals and dreams.

DU IMO is headed for group lock step / American Idol ...and the church lady jury system is helping a lot with that. Beware ...OWS, progressives, socialists and liberals ...we/you are not wanted or needed here IMO. That's right ...you are not needed because the GOP has self destructed to the point that Dems can win with out us/you. The DLC Dinos and center right want money and war ...and SS IMO is going to go on the chopping block soon. We IMO are being sold out to the corporations.

[Harmony Blue]

50. This concerns me greatly

and I will give it a shot to speak out against the group lock step. But the end result may come true as you predict unfortunately. I personally have watched this site go from a question everything site in the early 2000s to accepting the status quo to the present era. It seems to me that DU has changed in a direction that no one expected.

[MADem]

66. What was your username before Tue Mar 29, 2011?

I don't remember this site being a "question everything" site. Right wing horse shit has NEVER been "tolerated" here.

The idea, as detailed in the ToS, is to elect more Dems and fewer Republicans to public office. If people are playing small violins for the GOP's POV, they don't belong here.

[Drew Richards]

70. Early 2000's? So then are you a sock puppet or been "monitoring" DU for over 10 years before

Registering on the site? Never mind I really dont care.

[L0oniX]

75. I hear this site is for profit. If that is so then it will go in whatever direction that makes more

money ...just like most of our congress. Anyone who thinks this site is running because of some spare time and money that the admins have is an idiot.

[MADem]

94. What does "for profit" mean, though? Does it provide a livelihood for the people who

spend all day running it? Is that "profit" or is that just a living wage? Payment made, for VALUE RECEIVED?

I'm sure if the admins wanted to make a great big fat windfall "profit," they could sell this website, lock, stock and lounge, for a sweet payday--a "live like kings and a long holiday to boot" payday.

I think anyone who seriously believes that the admins, who founded this site because they were so fucking pissed off at the election theft in 2000, are somehow greedy and selfish twits who chase a dollar, who run after "profit," is the idiot in this equation. This site was founded upon a reaction to unfairness, and the way it's been managed down the years reflects that attitude and the attitude of progressive Democrats who believe in, dare I say, electing more Democrats and fewer Republicans to public office.

You really should rethink your rather rash comment. IMO.

[L0oniX]

101. "greedy and selfish twits who chase a dollar, who run after "profit," is the idiot in this equation.

Looks like you are the one who has read into this what you wanted to read ...which IMO is rash indeed.

Oh and by the way ...it would seem that you are not worth responding to anymore so ...welcome to my ignore list.

[MADem]

103. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram it on your delicate toes, there, sport.

I guess it's easier to affect false umbrage than answer my simple question--what is profit?

You were the one who made snarky "profit" allusions about this website, run by four rather dedicated idealists who could have sold out years ago for big bucks, but haven't.

All I did was point out that the laborer is indeed, worthy of his or her hire. If you have a problem with that, well, that's most certainly YOUR problem, and not mine.

[steve2470]

100. I think the fact that DKF and our Marxist/Communist friends have been here so long is....

a testament to the fact that DU has a very basic litmus test. I can live with it. Skinner et al could easily make this a Democrats only site and probably survive. Maybe I'm wrong about that but there's millions of Democrats on the net.

[L0oniX]

104. I think Skinner and fellow admins are progresive Dems. I don't see em going for Dem purity either...

however I do believe there are many here who would like to have it Dem (what ever that is now) only.

[Deep13]

48. Can't speak for the website owners, only myself...

I have no reason to be tolerant of demonstrably wrong ideas.

TL,DR

[bvar22]

51. Nice Essay. A bit self absorbed. Paragraph breaks would aid in readability.

The Democratic Party IS a Big Tent with a variety of ideas,
but there is no room for those who advance the agenda of the RICH at the expense of the Working Class and the Poor,
and I have neither the time nor the inclination to listen to their ideas under the guise of being open minded.

[etherealtruth]

56. + infinity

On edit : tried to insert the infinity sign ... it did not work out too well

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. I think the best way to show that there's no room...

... is to let them present their agenda, then actively and aggressively shoot it down.

[ProSense]

53. Are you saying

DU needs to be more accepting of differing view points (it is a cornerstone of Liberalism)

<...>

Traditional Republican Christians attack me all the time but I am able to thwart their scathing attacks because I am armed with information and understand their points of view. I am a white, Christian male and yet I do not identify with anything of the traditional sense. I am 30 years old, not married, and I do not feel like I need to have children (For those wondering I am not alone in this sentiment in my age bracket). This throws conservatives in a tizzy but I am able to thwart their attacks by simply being logical and calm with reason....

The DU should welcome "differing view points," including RW "attacks"?

I mean, there is enough misinformation in the media to tie up this place with BS talking points forever. Introducing RW talking points that have been thoroughly debunked (the "attacks&quot would turn this forum into a circus.

Which one of these views should liberals/progressives be more tolerant of:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023925392

[MADem]

55. DU does not have to "accept" the rants of an idiot who tells people to not vote.

Which is why Russell Brand gets NO play here.

Paragraph breaks are your friend (that diatribe is unreadable) and I invite your renewed attention to this little piece of our ToS--this is why "we" are here at DU:

Vote for Democrats.


Winning elections is important — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground. But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats. During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect. When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them. In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where were a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.

[Bluenorthwest]

88. What cracked me up about the anti Brand thread was that the OP while cursing Brand to

hell was using his normal sigline, a quote from his generation's Brand, George Carlin, who said the same sort of thing about voting.
A preposterous thread in which an American quoting an American comic who said voting in the US is a waste of time savaged a British comic for saying it is a waste of time to vote in the UK.
And I've never missed an election. Which is why I don't promote George Carlin in every post I make, like the 'Brand can go to hell' guy does.
George Carlin:
“I don't vote. Two reasons. First of all it's meaningless; this country was bought and sold a long time ago. The shit they shovel around every 4 years *pfff* doesn't mean a fucking thing. Secondly, I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around – they say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain', but where's the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with.”

So. Hilarious is all I can say about that. But also it is indicative of a mindset that approves of content according to style and setting. Don't you agree?

[MADem]

93. I believe in participation in the process. I also believe in elected more Democrats and fewer

Republicans to public office. When people say "Aww, it doesn't matter, they are all the same, there's no difference," all I can say is let's compare Senators Ted Cruz and Liz Warren.

No difference?

Participating in small d democracy isn't always easy, because there are assholes out there who WANT to make it hard. They want people to be lazy, to stay away from the polls, and not do what is often the hard work to cast a vote.

After all, it's easier to play XBox all day and, as an excuse, affect a revolutionary attitude than stand in a frigging line for sometimes HOURS to exercise one's franchise.

Progressives who don't vote are not being "revolutionary," they're enabling the GOP.

[Cleita]

57. When the administrators set up this website, it was

as a refuge for left leaning democrats from the right wing message boards that dominated the internet then like Free Republic, a site that banned anyone not in lockstep with the original Freeper.

[Trajan]

61. Easy to understand why DU has locked out conservative viewpoints ...

Conservatives are assholes ....

Read here : http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/01/010127_7days.html

[Drew Richards]

63. Wow just wow self serving me generation word salad...fine bubba you go be your

Mavericky self willing to listen but not agree with differing opinions from the right side of the spectrum...

What you dont get to do or have the right is to expect any of us to agree with the selfish self centeredness of your post NOR agree with your estimation that as the big tent political party this forum Democratic Underground should have to listen to and argue with this crap on a daily basis...if thats what you are looking for...i would suggest you join yahoo forums and enjoy your mavericky self wading through the cesspool of topics there...

This forum is for like minded democrats...ffs if you disagree with 80% of our views I submit you are in the wrong place...

Oh and yes I waded through your entire disgusting self-promoting wall of text and after reading it I can agree we probably have NOTHING in common in life experience opinion morality honor alliegence or knowledge...

[Harmony Blue]

81. My generation has a bleak future

we are considered a lost generation. But we will be tasked to pick up the pieces and the mess left by the previous generations. But I reject the narrative that we are a lost generation. Having been raised in a toxic,cut throat environment during and post Reagan era my generation now shows no loyalty to anyone really. My generation doesn't know the value of unions or how it makes us stronger to support unions. But this also makes us less loyal to corporate masters and the worker drone paradigm.

I firmly believe we will not abandon the baby boomer generation. The population of my generation in the work force is far exceeded by the retiring, or soon to be retiring baby boomers. But we will not give up despite a bleak present and future predicted for my generation because we are not driven by monetary reasons but ideas. That is what we will still have well into the future.

[hobbit709]

65. Accepting other points of view and accepting RW BS is not the same thing.

[SoCalDem]

67. There is always Yahoo

[Prophet 451]

72. If I wanted to talk to conservatives...

...I could go to pretty much any site with a political comments section. Whenever there are open comments, conservatives swarm and they're so dogmatic and venomous, they drive away all the liberals.

[steve2470]

74. with all due respect, carefully read the DU TOS

There's many places on the net for everyone to talk politics and other issues. I really don't want to read posts and threads by right wingers here. YMMV. I can go to Yahoo for that.

[Lil Missy]

76. white space is your friend

[KG]

84. wot;dr

[penultimate]

86. I think there is enough argument/debate on here without allowing it to be

overrun by people who throw out the same ignorant posts about Obamacare death panels, how gays will destroy the country, how Sharia law is going to be implemented by Obama, how all people on welfare are lazy, or how minimum wage and unions are evil communist ideas... Which isn't to say none of those topics can be discussed. I mean, there is plenty to debate about with regards to the ACA, you can even have a decent discussion about how approach welfare or minimum wage, but if you're debating a right-winger, they are not even close to being on the same page. I'd say the vast majority of times they come off as truly ignorant, and are just repeating talking points they heard elsewhere. They typically are not coming at you with original thought that can lead to an interesting debate or discussion. Which may no always be the case, but it has been the vast majority of the time for me.

One thing about DU(or any political site, I'm sure) is that there are assholes here. There are people who seem to think that anyone who isn't marching 100% in lockstep with their opinions, does not belong here. These are the same people who do not think that any of their beliefs should be discussed, even if they are reasoned out and discussed in a civilized manner. I've seen people get attacked who have the overall same opinion as a person, but they may disagree on a certain point, but that's enough to cause an irrational meltdown. There are more decent people on here than are assholes though. I mean, there are people who I disagree with on many things, but I like them a lot because they are well reasoned (even if I Think they may be wrong) Then there are some people who I seem to agree with more often than not, but they just come off as jerks to others in conversations.

But anyway, their is plenty of healthy (and unhealthy) debate here on DU without allowing it to be cluttered with far right-wing stupidity.

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. Cliffs notes version

1) liberal discussion groups are, by definition, home to freewheeling dialog
2) sophistry - playing devils advocate - is a useful rhetorical skill
3) self-examination, including collective self-examination is important to a healthy ability to think critically
4) exemplifying tolerance and active listening can help to mitigate fear and intolerance among those whom we wish to influence.

If I've got it right, then I agree 100%.

[cpwm17]

98. The lost art of the paragraph

I did not read as the writer had no consideration of the reader.

[LeftishBrit]

99. I think there is a difference between accepting people's general right to right-wing viewpoints (if

viewpoints are not right-wing, this whole issue is hardly relevant) and thinking that DU should be open to considering such viewpoints as valid.

People's views are not being suppressed or censored if they are not accepted as suitable for DU, any more than I am being suppressed or censored if I am not welcomed on Free Republic, or for that matter on, e.g., a Christian Scientist board, or a board for promoting homeopathy, etc.. People have a right to their opinions and to express them and for example to vote for whoever they choose. On the other hand, people also have the right to set up groups which are for promoting a particular viewpoint. If someone doesn't agree with the broad viewpoint of DU, there are many other places where they can express their views.

I think there is room for plenty of diversity as regards what are considered as left-wing/ progressive views. But I think DU is not a place e.g. for Reaganite/Thatcherite views. If I want to go somewhere where it is acceptable to present the view that poor people or those in need of benefits are mostly lazy skivers; that austerity is morally and economically good for you; that the social safety net is corrupting and enfeebling; or that employers should be able to sack workers at will, and workers should not have the right to strike (unless, of course, they are Republican members of Congress) - then there are plenty of places where I can go. The comments section of virtually any British or American news outfit, even a mainly progressive one such as the Guardian, for example. DU should be a safe haven from such attitudes, in my opinion.

[mshasta]

102. Im with you on this

very interesting post.

thank you