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Can someone ring up the Germans, and (Original Post) MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 OP
Well... It Appears That Spain Is In The On-Deck Circle For Tomorrow... Check It Out !!! WillyT Oct 2013 #1
Snowden is totally punking these countries MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #4
"many heads would have rolled by now."...or would they? AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #85
Wow! They have a huge govt. cui bono Oct 2013 #20
It's the scale of the NSA's alleged surveillance that's worrying Ghost Dog Oct 2013 #48
I wonder how many people realize "data" about calls is not the content of the calls themselves. I okaawhatever Oct 2013 #94
STOP IT MANNY Skittles Oct 2013 #2
It's NSA Manny! R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #9
Any foreign leader Mr.Bill Oct 2013 #3
Huh? You think they *really* tapped her phone? MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #5
That was too easy for you. R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #11
Well, he had a good point no? MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #13
I would like to know which American official forked over scores of phone numbers, R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #17
Good question. Who gave the NSA those private numbers? riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #53
Who's a political toddler? Mr.Bill Oct 2013 #18
Whomever they are I'm sure the NSA won't be on it immediately. R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #19
I have no idea if they really tapped her phone. Mr.Bill Oct 2013 #12
Um, don't we agree that if the US got sensitive information MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #15
I'm not exactly sure how I feel about that. Mr.Bill Oct 2013 #16
Every country builds acre sized data centers to store every phone calll made by us just like the NSA Dragonfli Oct 2013 #38
... woo me with science Oct 2013 #39
Yes! DeSwiss Oct 2013 #43
It's ONLY MEH-TAH DAY-TA !!!! GoneFishin Oct 2013 #50
It absolutely 100% is her fault for using an unencrypted line. joshcryer Oct 2013 #36
The NSA can decrypt. riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #54
You see her skirt was very short and she was walking alone at night... AngryAmish Oct 2013 #55
She WAS just asking for it, practically BEGGING to be tapped. Dragonfli Oct 2013 #62
It was 100% irresponsible to use an unsecure line and expect security. joshcryer Oct 2013 #67
So it was her fault we spied on her? Is there a law that says we MUST spy on an ally Dragonfli Oct 2013 #69
No. She used an unsecured line and should not expect security. joshcryer Oct 2013 #70
No, I understand perfectly, you just think a certain way which I find deplorable Dragonfli Oct 2013 #74
Vile, nasty characterization. joshcryer Oct 2013 #77
Your justification and lack of moral clarity that drives you to blame the victim Dragonfli Oct 2013 #80
I am not defending spying. joshcryer Oct 2013 #84
Not trying to score points, just think "our" actions are morally corrupt Dragonfli Oct 2013 #87
Of course they are. joshcryer Oct 2013 #89
She's had a secure cell phone since Obama became a president riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #97
Ouch. MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #99
Once secured the taps failed. joshcryer Oct 2013 #101
Link to a source that the taps failed. nt riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #109
Link a source that says they succeeded. joshcryer Oct 2013 #110
There's a ton of sites demonstrating the NSA can break encrypted phones riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #114
and if you're naive enough to believe the germans, our allies, aren't spying on us,as well as mossad dionysus Oct 2013 #82
It's ironic because Merkel colluded with the NSA. joshcryer Oct 2013 #88
I didn't call you a rapist, but victim blaming, in a context you might understand Dragonfli Oct 2013 #90
Oh yeah, you've been so cordial and nice. joshcryer Oct 2013 #104
the naivete knows no bounds, apparently. dionysus Oct 2013 #92
I take it you have proof the Germans tapped Obama's phone as well? Assumptions appear Dragonfli Oct 2013 #93
Where are y getting that she was using an unsecure phone? riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #73
It didn't get encypted until 2009. joshcryer Oct 2013 #76
So her cell is encrypted and the NSA goes to the effort to decrypt it?! riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #81
It started in 2002. joshcryer Oct 2013 #86
For as long as Obama has been President, Merkel's phone has been encrypted riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #91
And they didn't succeed under Obama. joshcryer Oct 2013 #102
That's why Obama said there's no tapping now or going forward... riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #105
I doubt he had all the details. joshcryer Oct 2013 #107
Whether successful or not, they tried nonetheless, now why would they try to tap Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #106
You expect better of intelligence agencies? joshcryer Oct 2013 #108
Then you agree the NSA has overstepped its' bounds and needs to be reigned in or curtailed? n/t Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #111
Absolutely, 100%. joshcryer Oct 2013 #112
Does the NSA have a legitimate reason for being or should we scrap it all together? n/t Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #113
scrap it and the cia joshcryer Oct 2013 #115
How would you handle the issue of U.S. enemies overseas, are the terrorists for real? n/t Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #116
That's where transparency comes in. joshcryer Oct 2013 #117
This is BS victim blaming crap. joshcryer Oct 2013 #66
So you're saying Obama knows all about everything that's being done by the NSA? n/t Fumesucker Oct 2013 #68
Nope. joshcryer Oct 2013 #71
You said heads of state spy on other states Fumesucker Oct 2013 #75
Forget about the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor Fume, he's "on a roll" and doesn't need to make sense Dragonfli Oct 2013 #78
"All about everything" is a lot to know. joshcryer Oct 2013 #79
... Fumesucker Oct 2013 #83
stupid comparison, rape is wrong in every case, but spying is not , is it wrong to spy on China ? JI7 Oct 2013 #98
Ok, on my way right freaking now Hutzpa Oct 2013 #6
... Scootaloo Oct 2013 #44
I heard Obama told Frau Merkel straight up pscot Oct 2013 #7
What, does she think "now" denotes an *instant* of time? MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author woo me with science Oct 2013 #8
The Chancelor knows the truth, Manny. R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #14
So because she was "Eastern Bloc", she knows who spies and who doesn't? Cali_Democrat Oct 2013 #23
Yes, she does, in fact know. joshcryer Oct 2013 #35
Merkel is being awfully ungrateful Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #21
Come to think of it, at that moment we MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #22
Manny...do you realize your phone is tapped and there's a camera on you? Cali_Democrat Oct 2013 #24
My apologies! MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #25
"Those ARE my pants!" Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #26
I can see you too! Cali_Democrat Oct 2013 #29
Shhhhh Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #31
I wouldn't blow that for all the money in Mitt Romney's couch. Scootaloo Oct 2013 #45
Gee, whiz. Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #47
Sorry Merkel that's the price u pay for 9/11 Hijackers mtg & lvg Germany undetected SoCalCisco Oct 2013 #30
Do we as American citizens get the same award, and for what perceived wrongs do we R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #32
Americans lost their Constitutuonal Rights long before Snowden told us we had with SoCalCisco Oct 2013 #37
Thank Gawd we finally voted for an administration that would damn well keep it that way! Dragonfli Oct 2013 #40
Welcome to our post 9/11 world. Better than post 9/11 "GOP" world SoCalCisco Oct 2013 #60
With all due respect, spying on all Americans does not make us safe, the one chance to prove they Dragonfli Oct 2013 #61
"DONT MENTION THE WAR!" Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #27
This isn't coming from Snowden, though. Spider Jerusalem Oct 2013 #28
You mean. like...Snowden has no message?!? Zorra Oct 2013 #51
And a Ted Cruz leftist Doctor_J Oct 2013 #64
Ted Cruz is the worst sort of leftist, FUCKING COMMIE that one! Dragonfli Oct 2013 #95
The Germans are more annoyed by Merkel's double standard. joshcryer Oct 2013 #33
Your money will be waiting at Drop Zone Zebra. NBachers Oct 2013 #34
Yep, it's no biggie really jsr Oct 2013 #41
Once again... DirtyDawg Oct 2013 #42
I think you are right, The Germans are lying about what is pissing them off Dragonfli Oct 2013 #49
The TPM article says, essentially, that it was metadata. At least for Spain. randome Oct 2013 #56
K&R DeSwiss Oct 2013 #46
Can someone ring up George Bush and ask him why Merkel was under surveillance? Bolo Boffin Oct 2013 #52
Can someone ring up Barack Obama and let him know he's been POTUS for five years? Fumesucker Oct 2013 #96
Can someone ring up Fumesucker and let him know Bolo Boffin Oct 2013 #100
It's so embarassing being European just now. sibelian Oct 2013 #57
Latest Snowden memes are that he's a naive, stupid patsy riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #58
The colossal IMPORTANCE of his unimportance has never been lost on me. sibelian Oct 2013 #59
"Gentlemen don't read each other's mail..." LanternWaste Oct 2013 #63
I tried to call and they told me she was busy talking to Putin JVS Oct 2013 #65
Haha, good one, Manny! City Lights Oct 2013 #72
Did someone say the Germans? BainsBane Oct 2013 #103
 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
1. Well... It Appears That Spain Is In The On-Deck Circle For Tomorrow... Check It Out !!!
Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:51 PM
Oct 2013
NSA Collected Data On 60 Million Phone Calls In Spain Over Course Of One Month: Report
Posted: 10/27/2013 9:02 pm EDT | Updated: 10/27/2013 11:14 pm EDT

<snip>

An upcoming story in the Spanish newspaper El Mundo reports that the U.S. National Security Agency swept up data on 60 million phone calls in Spain over the course of one month in 2012.

This latest revelation comes from documents uncovered by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden. The El Mundo story was written by Glenn Greenwald and Germán Aranda.

Earlier on Sunday, Greenwald teased the story in a tweet:



<snip>

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/27/nsa-spain_n_4168523.html


 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
4. Snowden is totally punking these countries
Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:55 PM
Oct 2013

I wonder when we'll let them in on the gag?

They should realize by now that if the NSA *really* allowed a 29-year-old to access and make off with all of this info, many heads would have rolled by now.

Totally punked. Incredible.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
85. "many heads would have rolled by now."...or would they?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:16 PM
Oct 2013

There are undoubtedly some real crooked people in the NSA.....isn't it quite possible his escape might have been aided by one or more of these crooks? Just saying.

 

Ghost Dog

(16,881 posts)
48. It's the scale of the NSA's alleged surveillance that's worrying
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 05:19 AM
Oct 2013
...The head of the European parliament delegation, British MEP Claude Moraes, told the BBC it was the scale of the NSA's alleged surveillance that was worrying.

"The headline news, that 35 leaders had their phones tapped is not the real crux of the issue," he said.

"It really is the El Mundo type story, that millions of citizens of countries... had their landlines and other communications tapped. So it's about mass surveillance. It's about scale and proportionality."

He said a priority of the European mission was to discuss the impact of American spying on EU citizens' fundamental right to privacy.

The BBC's Europe correspondent Chris Morris says that with every new allegation, demands are growing in Europe - and in Germany in particular - for explanations and for guarantees of a change in culture...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24699733



According to certain prolific and persistent voices here at DU, to expect such a culture-change from the rulers over the already supine US people would be... what, naïve?

"Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." - Benito Mussolini

[center] [/center]


[center] ?1
US Ambassador to Spain James Costos
http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/10/27/actualidad/1382912344_420746.html [/center]

okaawhatever

(9,480 posts)
94. I wonder how many people realize "data" about calls is not the content of the calls themselves. I
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:34 PM
Oct 2013

think one of the things that has people so freaked is the idea that the calls are recorded in whole. If Spain is like most of the other countries, it's the metadata only. If the newspapers would start making clear what is going on we could enter a reasonable debate. Until then it's all hype and hysteria leading the conversations. I don't know the laws about metadata in other countries, but our scotus said it was legal thirty years ago. Any notion that this scotus would overturn that is pretty absurd. They aren't big on civil rights, rights, or the Constitution based on their history.

Mr.Bill

(24,438 posts)
3. Any foreign leader
Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:54 PM
Oct 2013

who thought their cell phone was secure is only showing their stupidity. And if Obama was stupid enough to have sensitive conversations on a cell phone, they would have his tapped, too.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
5. Huh? You think they *really* tapped her phone?
Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:57 PM
Oct 2013

Well, I guess then it's totally her fault, you're right.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
13. Well, he had a good point no?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:10 AM
Oct 2013

Plus, I just received new information... "oh grow up, everyone does it" for now.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
17. I would like to know which American official forked over scores of phone numbers,
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:15 AM
Oct 2013

allegedly mind you, so that the NSA would have an easier job of not doing what it is being accused of doing.


Don't forget. The sensible woodchuck doesn't mind a little phone violation every now and then.

Mr.Bill

(24,438 posts)
12. I have no idea if they really tapped her phone.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:08 AM
Oct 2013

I just said they are showing their stupidity by implying that they thought their cell phones were secure.

And by the way, show me where I said it was their fault. If you want to put words into people's mouths, try it with someone else. It won't work with me.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
15. Um, don't we agree that if the US got sensitive information
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:12 AM
Oct 2013

From her tapped cell phone, it's her own damn fault?

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
38. Every country builds acre sized data centers to store every phone calll made by us just like the NSA
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 02:03 AM
Oct 2013

Plus all emails, sites visited, our locations as we make those calls, a complete list of all our associations etc.

Everyone knows that, even small Caribbean countries know what you had for breakfast Mr Bill (that's just common knowledge, my first grade teacher taught me about it). People act like phone sex with their spouses WASN'T recorded by every country including our own. Dey stupid!

When is Snowden gonna leak somepin that wasn't common knowledge 10 years ago!

I'm SERIES111!!!11

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
36. It absolutely 100% is her fault for using an unencrypted line.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:57 AM
Oct 2013

The NSA isn't the only one listening and if you think that heads of states can safely use personal unencrypted phones for government business you've got to be so naive it's not even funny. It's just mind boggling that you would think only the NSA would spy on such a device.

You got ABIN in Brazil (which has openly stated it's going to spy on everyone for the World Cup). You got the FSB / GRU in Russia (which has openly stated that it's going to spy on everyone for the Olympics). You got the GIP in Saudi Arabia (which has materially supported fighters in Syria, as we are doing now). You got the MSS / SAR in China which has been caught doing economic espionage.

It's likely she didn't use the cell phone for government stuff so she probably isn't worried, if anything she's embarrassed.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
54. The NSA can decrypt.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:02 AM
Oct 2013

Do we know her phone was unsecured? And does that even matter? The NSA are masters at decrypting from everything I've read recently

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
62. She WAS just asking for it, practically BEGGING to be tapped.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 05:54 PM
Oct 2013

Its not the fault of a virile and healthy Surveillance State if it gets aroused by a society that acts so free with itself and it's citizens, it had to act on that and spy hard and long or lose it's manhood.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
67. It was 100% irresponsible to use an unsecure line and expect security.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:48 PM
Oct 2013

Yes.

This false equivalence comparing a head of state using an unsecured line to victim blaming rape culture is absolutely ridiculous and embarrassing.

In fact it becomes a defense of the state surveillance culture because then it suggests that states won't do it and we should all expect security when the reality, in the examples I used, is the exact opposite.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
69. So it was her fault we spied on her? Is there a law that says we MUST spy on an ally
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:56 PM
Oct 2013

just because we can?

What is that law called and does it apply to all of us as well?



You nailed it! If a young women gets drunk, one simply must insert penis when passed out because she was irresponsible and we simply must (because anyone can), she would hardly have a right to object after the fact, I think I am beginning to understand your mind. We should, in fact we must, listen in on a persons personal phone calls because it is irresponsible for them to use a phone to make them.

I hope no young women ever gets drunk around you tiger.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
70. No. She used an unsecured line and should not expect security.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:01 PM
Oct 2013

How hard is this to get?

She would do the same thing.

The German BND (Federal Intelligence Service, their CIA) is doing this same stuff.

And let's be absolutely 100% clear here. The BND is who gave the NSA intelligence before, that was the initial controversy. That's why the Germans made a mockery of Merkel, because she was the one giving information to the NSA but expected her private, unencrypted phone would be left alone, which is preposterous.

This line of argumentation is a no win. It's not comparable. Heads of states are not victims because they get spied on unsecured lines and expect security.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
74. No, I understand perfectly, you just think a certain way which I find deplorable
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:04 PM
Oct 2013

I updated the above message before reading your reply but nothing in your reply causes me to think the addition is incorrect

bye tiger

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
77. Vile, nasty characterization.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:08 PM
Oct 2013

Just disgusting.

And complete false equivalence, reducing victims to a mere soundbite on a forum.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
80. Your justification and lack of moral clarity that drives you to blame the victim
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:10 PM
Oct 2013

for the crime, is vile.

I was simply pointing out your "logic" that appears only lost on you...

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
84. I am not defending spying.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:13 PM
Oct 2013

I am saying no head of state should expect security in a surveillance state world. Especially if that head of state is in collusion with the NSA with NSA-BND security exchanging. Merkel colluded with the NSA, and she's being made out to be a victim here, it is absolutely preposterous how these nasty characterizations go just to score some damn points on the internet.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
87. Not trying to score points, just think "our" actions are morally corrupt
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:19 PM
Oct 2013

That other nations have been corrupted by us into joining in the fun is of little comfort.

Blaming her for being spied on is the wrong way to go about what you appear to think you are accomplishing, that's all.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
89. Of course they are.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:23 PM
Oct 2013

So are Merkel's actions colluding with the NSA. You should know she's being mocked in Germany because she refused to comment on the NSA issue. The it turns out she was on the "A" list of people we spy on. How about them apples Merkel?

She is 100% responsible for using an unsecured line in a surveillance state world and I am not going to fall into this pathetic point scoring trap where you are making me out to be blaming the victim, sorry, you already called me a rapist, which really shows a nasty character there.

Merkel is not a victim because she spys on others too and she gave data to the NSA via the BND. She is the one who is also doing mass surveillance and therefore is not a victim.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
97. She's had a secure cell phone since Obama became a president
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:44 PM
Oct 2013

Stop saying "she's 100% responsible because she was using an unsecure line".

That's demonstrably false and your victim blaming is disgusting.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
101. Once secured the taps failed.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:33 PM
Oct 2013

I know you like to argue that the NSA is all powerful and can decrypt everything but they can't get through properly encrypted and secured devices. The fact that lavabit went down is proof of that, the NSA needs the encryption keys before it can get through.

Stop trying to make Merkel out to be a victim because she gave German information over to the NSA and had a tight lip about it until it turned out that she herself was being spied upon.

There is zero evidence that the NSA has tapped into Merkel's secured phone.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
110. Link a source that says they succeeded.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 12:02 AM
Oct 2013

I can prove that a secured line can't be tapped.

Do you contest that Merkel's phone was secured in 2009?

If not then you must accept that the NSA needs keys to access it.

Otherwise you're having a serious failing of logic here.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
114. There's a ton of sites demonstrating the NSA can break encrypted phones
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 12:16 AM
Oct 2013

I don't contest her phone was encrypted at all. In fact I 110% believe Merkels phone had the highest security (or so she believed).

You're the one who doesn't believe her phone was broken by the NSA. Prove it or stop making unfounded claims of its infallibility.

Obama's own convo with Merkel with his shady rhetoric is proof positive imho.

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
82. and if you're naive enough to believe the germans, our allies, aren't spying on us,as well as mossad
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:13 PM
Oct 2013

and MI6, can't really help you.

gotta give creativity points to the insinuation the person you replied to is a fucking rapist.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
88. It's ironic because Merkel colluded with the NSA.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:20 PM
Oct 2013

And she's being mocked in Germany for feigning disgust that she was spied upon, after being silent on the NSA controversy all this time.

Victim blaming? Calling me a rapist? Totally preposterous forum point scoring soundbites, in defense of Merkel who colluded with the NSA.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
90. I didn't call you a rapist, but victim blaming, in a context you might understand
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:25 PM
Oct 2013

was a bit over your head it would appear.

I agree with the irony, but not spying on an ally. I will feel the same when she spies on Obama, if there is ever any evidence of that.

That will if it happens also be ironic, and just as wrong.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
104. Oh yeah, you've been so cordial and nice.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:45 PM
Oct 2013

Your problem is that I am in agreement with you but you don't like my characterizing this as standard operation procedure for states. Oh, far be it for me to point out states aren't pure as the driven snow! That's not a damn justification for what they do, it's recognizing that they aren't going to do the right thing, for their own interests.

The fact that Merkel is giving information on German citizens to the NSA is the most fucked up part of it if you ask me, she has no right to be upset when it backfires. If we were honest with ourselves we'd come out and say "hey we spy on people, sorry, but it's gotta be done." But no, we pretend like we have no interest in it!

I mean shit when fucking Putin of all people, former KGB, is trashing spying you know you're living in an Orwellian world where people say one thing and do another. When Russia openly admits that every phone will be tapped at the Olympics. Every phone. Every. Phone.

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
92. the naivete knows no bounds, apparently.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:27 PM
Oct 2013

just because everyone who can afford a spy agency spies their asses off, doesn't make it right, but to think we're the only culprits in the espionage game is breathtakingly stupid.



now try not to rape anybody you evil bastard you

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
93. I take it you have proof the Germans tapped Obama's phone as well? Assumptions appear
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:30 PM
Oct 2013

to know no bounds.

As I said, if they ever do tap his phone, it will be ironic, but just as wrong.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
73. Where are y getting that she was using an unsecure phone?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:03 PM
Oct 2013

Businessinsider.com reports just the opposite. That her cell is highly encrypted

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
76. It didn't get encypted until 2009.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:06 PM
Oct 2013

You'll note this stuff started a long time ago, not even under Obama. He just didn't stop it.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
81. So her cell is encrypted and the NSA goes to the effort to decrypt it?!
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:11 PM
Oct 2013

For the past 4 years! This happened under Obama. It takes real effort to work at decrypting her cell.

And this is an ally!

Your persistence in trying to hide the fact that her cell is encrypted, and.has been for many years, smells like willful obfuscation.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
86. It started in 2002.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:17 PM
Oct 2013

I'm not trying to hide anything. I don't think they had been successful at decrypting the phone once it had the encryption added. Yet she's still been on the list of targets that Snowden released. That's the part that's so controversial, that the US would target heads of states. Because, yeah, the US is so pure and wonderful that the US would never ever do anything like that.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
91. For as long as Obama has been President, Merkel's phone has been encrypted
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:26 PM
Oct 2013

GW Bush and Cheney are vile enough that nothing was beyond them in their voracious corporate greed (which I suspect is the biggest use for the NSA data collection).

Obama's NSA however wasn't tapping an unsecured line. They were going after communications our FRIEND AND ALLY wanted to keep private.

That's fucked up. I'm not surprised the Germans are pissed off

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
102. And they didn't succeed under Obama.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:34 PM
Oct 2013

That's the damn point. The phone, once secured, was untappable. Merkel remained on the NSA's A list of people to spy upon. There is zero evidence the taps were successful on a secured phone.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
105. That's why Obama said there's no tapping now or going forward...
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:47 PM
Oct 2013

Really?!

He couldn't say that it hadn't occurred under his Admin when Angela Merkel called in a huff.... She created an international rift with a close ally over nothing?

Provide proof that there was no tapping of Merkels cell phone for the past 5 years.

Proof there was no tapping of Merkel's phone in the past 5 years and I'll stand down. Otherwise you only have your own blind faith in a flawed admin

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
107. I doubt he had all the details.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:53 PM
Oct 2013

Obama: "Are we tapping the phone?"

Official: "No sir."

Obama: "OK, let me clear that up. No, there's no phone tapping right now nor will there be."

Official: "Mr. President, apparently we did tap it under Bush, on the unsecured line."

Obama: "Well fuck."

Official: "And Merkel is on the 'A' list of people we spy on."

Obama: "Holy fucking shit. This is an epic fuck up."

Provide proof that they tapped a secure line and you'll get a prize in mathematics because they can't tap it. This whole subthread is about the secure line. Which was secured shortly after Obama took office.

Uncle Joe

(58,900 posts)
106. Whether successful or not, they tried nonetheless, now why would they try to tap
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:52 PM
Oct 2013

the phone of a head of state; being our friend and ally which you posted upthread had cooperated with the NSA?

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
108. You expect better of intelligence agencies?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:56 PM
Oct 2013

They're the most fucked up and immoral actors on the planet. Have you not seen the history of CIA involvement and meddling in other countries? Really? Almost every modern war can really be blamed on intelligence agencies meddling somewhere. Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Libya, almost all of Latin America. All precipitated by the CIA and NSA like structures.

The reason?

Because they can.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
112. Absolutely, 100%.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 12:09 AM
Oct 2013

Read my posts. People keep falsely thinking I'm defending the NSA and the US government. I am not, I'm saying it's standard operating procedure, one can only hope something good comes of this.

But I guarantee you this won't stop Germany's BND from giving data to the US's NSA. Nothing changes.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
117. That's where transparency comes in.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 12:42 AM
Oct 2013

If you have absolute transparency in how you operate, then you can be trusted.

For foreign terrorists you give aid and training (edit: to the country the terrorists are operating in), not drones and bombs.

The CIA and NSA really aren't necessary. The terrorist threat is so overblown and exaggerated it's a damn joke. The CIA has probably hurt human progress far more than it has helped it.

Odds of being killed by a terrorist are 1 in 20 million (ie, you can get struck by lightning 4 times before it happens to you): http://reason.com/archives/2011/09/06/how-scared-of-terrorism-should

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
66. This is BS victim blaming crap.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:45 PM
Oct 2013

You should be ashamed for even trying to make the comparison. Heads of states are not victims for other states spying on them, because they spy on other states.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
75. You said heads of state spy on other states
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:05 PM
Oct 2013

If the head of state drives the spying then they know about it.

On the other hand if the head of state doesn't know about the spying then they didn't drive it.

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
79. "All about everything" is a lot to know.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:10 PM
Oct 2013

I do not think Obama knows "all about everything" the NSA is doing.

I think that he likely knew that heads of states were being spied upon as well as embassies, but I suspect he told them to make it a "need to know basis" so he could plausibly deny that he actually knew Merkel herself was tapped but had a general idea of what was going on.

In 50 years when the FOIA comes out, and we read all the recordings, I suspect that's what it will imply.

JI7

(89,374 posts)
98. stupid comparison, rape is wrong in every case, but spying is not , is it wrong to spy on China ?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:57 PM
Oct 2013
 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
10. What, does she think "now" denotes an *instant* of time?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:05 AM
Oct 2013

Last edited Mon Oct 28, 2013, 07:48 AM - Edit history (1)

Like, she thinks that we'd stop tapping her for a few minutes while Obama called her, then start tapping her again?

Sheesh!

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
23. So because she was "Eastern Bloc", she knows who spies and who doesn't?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:30 AM
Oct 2013

All hail the German Chancellor! She knows!

Merkel uber alles!!

joshcryer

(62,297 posts)
35. Yes, she does, in fact know.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:46 AM
Oct 2013

She downplayed the original revelations, but when it turned out her personal non-secure phone was tapped she made a huge fuss over it. The German people are more annoyed that she made a fuss over it once it turned out her phone was tapped than they are about the surveillance state. It looks like the NSA is going to make a treaty with the German government (use Google translate) not to spy on one another. But German intelligence was the one who originally handed over the data, it wasn't the NSA taking it. So said "treaty" will probably have a clause in there saying "we will share with each other what we will share" and therefore nothing will change.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
22. Come to think of it, at that moment we
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:25 AM
Oct 2013

should have realized she's way to uptight. What kind of woman world leader doesn't get all melty feeling the firm hands of a man who can command hundreds of thousands of troops into battle just for kicks?

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
24. Manny...do you realize your phone is tapped and there's a camera on you?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:32 AM
Oct 2013

I can see everything you're doing.

Put some pants on, sheesh.

SoCalCisco

(14 posts)
30. Sorry Merkel that's the price u pay for 9/11 Hijackers mtg & lvg Germany undetected
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:27 AM
Oct 2013

Look Merkel & Germany...you're partly to blame for 9/11 by letting these guys all meet up for happy meals in your backyard. Get over it and let it go.
 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
32. Do we as American citizens get the same award, and for what perceived wrongs do we
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:38 AM
Oct 2013

pay the NSA with our constitutional rights?

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
40. Thank Gawd we finally voted for an administration that would damn well keep it that way!
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 02:09 AM
Oct 2013

Cheney was smart, it would be stupid not to continue what he and his puppet made such advances in.

SoCalCisco

(14 posts)
60. Welcome to our post 9/11 world. Better than post 9/11 "GOP" world
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:12 PM
Oct 2013

Before the Boston marathon bombing, there were no terrorist attacks since 9/11 due in big part to these U.S. and international cells getting caught before hand through this type of intel. How do u think we find these guys and chase them down with drones or SEALS? Do you ever buy a plane ticket Dragonfli? You're giving more personal info than before that's now going to Homeland security. It sucks not to mention sucks at the airport itself.

Given the digital world we're living in the credit reporting agency is worse than nat'l security agency. Has the NSA prevented people from getting jobs or run background Walmart background checks? NSA wants to waste time to listen to my calls? Go for it. Not losing sleep over it man.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
61. With all due respect, spying on all Americans does not make us safe, the one chance to prove they
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 05:47 PM
Oct 2013

Were spending so much energy collecting everything about us to prevent "Terra" (Boston) proved only the opposite.

You may long for a post civil liberty country with a Stazi like government and absolutely no expectation of privacy or rights because it makes you "feel safe", but some of us prefer America and a Constitution you appear to feel is decorative toilet paper.

There are countries already designed to your liking, move there, let us have a free society with all the rights and privacy's that citizens are supposed to be guaranteed, your rhetoric was old when Cheney first began spouting it. If they had focused on terrorists rather than the leaders of our allies in Europe and all of us, 911 would not have happened.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
28. This isn't coming from Snowden, though.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:12 AM
Oct 2013

It's coming from NSA documents that Snowden had in his possession. Which is somethng entirely different and not "nonsense". Calling it nonsense, and attempting to make it about Snowden, rather than the NSA actions he revealed, is very telling, really.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
51. You mean. like...Snowden has no message?!?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:33 AM
Oct 2013

Clearly, First Way Manny is a park dwelling, bongo playing, leaderless emotarian Randian Snowdenite.


NBachers

(17,304 posts)
34. Your money will be waiting at Drop Zone Zebra.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:45 AM
Oct 2013

The usual assortment of small, untraceable, non-declarable bills.

 

DirtyDawg

(802 posts)
42. Once again...
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 02:17 AM
Oct 2013

...I ask the question, Are we really 'monitoring' (e.g., listening in) these calls, or are we simply storing data of calls - dates/time/duration - between random numbers? I mean anybody that's watched any Law&Order episodes knows that ol' Lennie Briscoe and Jack McCoy have been accessing the LUDs (Local Usage Details) of perps for decades. My bet is that this is all we're doing...capturing and storing connectivity details so as to track electronic contacts between numbers, email, Twitter, etc., and then a call from a known terrorist can be followed to whoever it leads - including to Ms Merkle...kinda like a Six Degrees of Separation between bad guys and their friends.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
49. I think you are right, The Germans are lying about what is pissing them off
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 05:47 AM
Oct 2013

I can tell you read all about it like the rest of us, and like the rest of us you naturally concluded that everyone, even the NSA was lying. A grand conspiracy concocted to hide the true facts revealed by you today that they are really pissed about LUDs that led to Chancellor Merkel (as well as 38 other leaders and several dozen million other Europeans) "because bad guys are their friends!!!!!"

"35 leaders had their phones tapped" indeed!

Conspiracy of liars that don't know what a phone tap is (including the plants at the NSA, sneaky bastards)

Bravo for seeing through the multinational conspiracy, or simply being smart enough not to read any of the news concerning the issue.

Will you run for public office?

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
56. The TPM article says, essentially, that it was metadata. At least for Spain.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:09 AM
Oct 2013
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-us-spied-on-60-million-calls-in-spain

It says the NSA monitored the numbers and duration of the calls, but not their content.


I'm betting the same is true for other countries.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

Bolo Boffin

(23,796 posts)
52. Can someone ring up George Bush and ask him why Merkel was under surveillance?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:35 AM
Oct 2013

He is still around somewhere, isn't he?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
96. Can someone ring up Barack Obama and let him know he's been POTUS for five years?
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:39 PM
Oct 2013

A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The White House.

Bolo Boffin

(23,796 posts)
100. Can someone ring up Fumesucker and let him know
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:08 PM
Oct 2013

he's on a liberal and Democratic board?


ETA: Seriously, I really don't understand your issue in my pointing out that George Bush started this bullshit and no one seems to be knocking on his door asking him what for. Dick Cheney was interviewed by Morning Joe yesterday and the issue seems to have vanished. It would have been nice to hear Cheney justify that bullshit policy.

You got a problem with me pointing that out, Fumesucker?

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
57. It's so embarassing being European just now.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:32 AM
Oct 2013

All these guys going WAAAAH. And Snowden's such a narcissistic, treacherous, cowardly, jail-deserving, unimportant person.
 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
58. Latest Snowden memes are that he's a naive, stupid patsy
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:51 AM
Oct 2013

Who is also narcissistic, cowardly etc etc. I figured you'd want to be up on the latest smears....

For such an unimportant guy who didn't expose anything everyone already knew, there's a ton of effort being made to discredit him.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
59. The colossal IMPORTANCE of his unimportance has never been lost on me.
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:05 PM
Oct 2013

He's so very SIGNIFICANTLY insignificant, isn't he?



They're so clumsy...
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
63. "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail..."
Mon Oct 28, 2013, 05:59 PM
Oct 2013

Because, as Stimson so eloquently stated early in the 20th century, "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail..."


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