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Sun Oct 27, 2013, 10:43 PM

 

Can someone ring up the Germans, and

tell 'em that Snowden is lying and/or not telling us anything we didn't know already?

They seriously need to chill already, they look silly falling for this Merkel's-phone-was-tapped nonsense.

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Reply Can someone ring up the Germans, and (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 OP
WillyT Oct 2013 #1
MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #4
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #85
cui bono Oct 2013 #20
Ghost Dog Oct 2013 #48
okaawhatever Oct 2013 #94
Skittles Oct 2013 #2
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #9
Mr.Bill Oct 2013 #3
MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #5
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #11
MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #13
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #17
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #53
Mr.Bill Oct 2013 #18
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #19
Mr.Bill Oct 2013 #12
MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #15
Mr.Bill Oct 2013 #16
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #38
woo me with science Oct 2013 #39
DeSwiss Oct 2013 #43
GoneFishin Oct 2013 #50
joshcryer Oct 2013 #36
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #54
AngryAmish Oct 2013 #55
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #62
joshcryer Oct 2013 #67
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #69
joshcryer Oct 2013 #70
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #74
joshcryer Oct 2013 #77
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #80
joshcryer Oct 2013 #84
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #87
joshcryer Oct 2013 #89
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #97
MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #99
joshcryer Oct 2013 #101
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #109
joshcryer Oct 2013 #110
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #114
dionysus Oct 2013 #82
joshcryer Oct 2013 #88
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #90
joshcryer Oct 2013 #104
dionysus Oct 2013 #92
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #93
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #73
joshcryer Oct 2013 #76
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #81
joshcryer Oct 2013 #86
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #91
joshcryer Oct 2013 #102
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #105
joshcryer Oct 2013 #107
Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #106
joshcryer Oct 2013 #108
Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #111
joshcryer Oct 2013 #112
Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #113
joshcryer Oct 2013 #115
Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #116
joshcryer Oct 2013 #117
joshcryer Oct 2013 #66
Fumesucker Oct 2013 #68
joshcryer Oct 2013 #71
Fumesucker Oct 2013 #75
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #78
joshcryer Oct 2013 #79
Fumesucker Oct 2013 #83
JI7 Oct 2013 #98
Hutzpa Oct 2013 #6
Scootaloo Oct 2013 #44
pscot Oct 2013 #7
MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #10
woo me with science Oct 2013 #8
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #14
Cali_Democrat Oct 2013 #23
joshcryer Oct 2013 #35
Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #21
MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #22
Cali_Democrat Oct 2013 #24
MannyGoldstein Oct 2013 #25
Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #26
Cali_Democrat Oct 2013 #29
Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #31
Scootaloo Oct 2013 #45
Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #47
SoCalCisco Oct 2013 #30
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2013 #32
SoCalCisco Oct 2013 #37
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #40
SoCalCisco Oct 2013 #60
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #61
Warren DeMontague Oct 2013 #27
Spider Jerusalem Oct 2013 #28
Zorra Oct 2013 #51
Doctor_J Oct 2013 #64
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #95
joshcryer Oct 2013 #33
NBachers Oct 2013 #34
jsr Oct 2013 #41
DirtyDawg Oct 2013 #42
Dragonfli Oct 2013 #49
randome Oct 2013 #56
DeSwiss Oct 2013 #46
Bolo Boffin Oct 2013 #52
Fumesucker Oct 2013 #96
Bolo Boffin Oct 2013 #100
sibelian Oct 2013 #57
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #58
sibelian Oct 2013 #59
LanternWaste Oct 2013 #63
JVS Oct 2013 #65
City Lights Oct 2013 #72
BainsBane Oct 2013 #103

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 10:51 PM

1. Well... It Appears That Spain Is In The On-Deck Circle For Tomorrow... Check It Out !!!

 

NSA Collected Data On 60 Million Phone Calls In Spain Over Course Of One Month: Report
Posted: 10/27/2013 9:02 pm EDT | Updated: 10/27/2013 11:14 pm EDT

<snip>

An upcoming story in the Spanish newspaper El Mundo reports that the U.S. National Security Agency swept up data on 60 million phone calls in Spain over the course of one month in 2012.

This latest revelation comes from documents uncovered by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden. The El Mundo story was written by Glenn Greenwald and Germán Aranda.

Earlier on Sunday, Greenwald teased the story in a tweet:



<snip>

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/27/nsa-spain_n_4168523.html


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Response to WillyT (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 10:55 PM

4. Snowden is totally punking these countries

 

I wonder when we'll let them in on the gag?

They should realize by now that if the NSA *really* allowed a 29-year-old to access and make off with all of this info, many heads would have rolled by now.

Totally punked. Incredible.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #4)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:16 PM

85. "many heads would have rolled by now."...or would they?

 

There are undoubtedly some real crooked people in the NSA.....isn't it quite possible his escape might have been aided by one or more of these crooks? Just saying.

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Response to WillyT (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:18 PM

20. Wow! They have a huge govt.

Cuz the NSA doesn't spy on civilians, right?

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Response to WillyT (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 04:19 AM

48. It's the scale of the NSA's alleged surveillance that's worrying

 

...The head of the European parliament delegation, British MEP Claude Moraes, told the BBC it was the scale of the NSA's alleged surveillance that was worrying.

"The headline news, that 35 leaders had their phones tapped is not the real crux of the issue," he said.

"It really is the El Mundo type story, that millions of citizens of countries... had their landlines and other communications tapped. So it's about mass surveillance. It's about scale and proportionality."

He said a priority of the European mission was to discuss the impact of American spying on EU citizens' fundamental right to privacy.

The BBC's Europe correspondent Chris Morris says that with every new allegation, demands are growing in Europe - and in Germany in particular - for explanations and for guarantees of a change in culture...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24699733



According to certain prolific and persistent voices here at DU, to expect such a culture-change from the rulers over the already supine US people would be... what, naďve?

"Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." - Benito Mussolini

[center] [/center]


[center] ?1
US Ambassador to Spain James Costos
http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/10/27/actualidad/1382912344_420746.html [/center]

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Response to WillyT (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:34 PM

94. I wonder how many people realize "data" about calls is not the content of the calls themselves. I

think one of the things that has people so freaked is the idea that the calls are recorded in whole. If Spain is like most of the other countries, it's the metadata only. If the newspapers would start making clear what is going on we could enter a reasonable debate. Until then it's all hype and hysteria leading the conversations. I don't know the laws about metadata in other countries, but our scotus said it was legal thirty years ago. Any notion that this scotus would overturn that is pretty absurd. They aren't big on civil rights, rights, or the Constitution based on their history.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 10:53 PM

2. STOP IT MANNY

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Response to Skittles (Reply #2)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:04 PM

9. It's NSA Manny!

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 10:54 PM

3. Any foreign leader

who thought their cell phone was secure is only showing their stupidity. And if Obama was stupid enough to have sensitive conversations on a cell phone, they would have his tapped, too.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 10:57 PM

5. Huh? You think they *really* tapped her phone?

 

Well, I guess then it's totally her fault, you're right.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #5)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:06 PM

11. That was too easy for you.

 


You're toying with political toddlers.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #11)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:10 PM

13. Well, he had a good point no?

 

Plus, I just received new information... "oh grow up, everyone does it" for now.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #13)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:15 PM

17. I would like to know which American official forked over scores of phone numbers,

 


allegedly mind you, so that the NSA would have an easier job of not doing what it is being accused of doing.


Don't forget. The sensible woodchuck doesn't mind a little phone violation every now and then.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #17)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:57 AM

53. Good question. Who gave the NSA those private numbers?

 

In 2002....

I'm gonna guess Cheney

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #11)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:15 PM

18. Who's a political toddler?

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #18)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:18 PM

19. Whomever they are I'm sure the NSA won't be on it immediately.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #5)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:08 PM

12. I have no idea if they really tapped her phone.

I just said they are showing their stupidity by implying that they thought their cell phones were secure.

And by the way, show me where I said it was their fault. If you want to put words into people's mouths, try it with someone else. It won't work with me.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #12)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:12 PM

15. Um, don't we agree that if the US got sensitive information

 

From her tapped cell phone, it's her own damn fault?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #15)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:14 PM

16. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about that.

But like I said, I'm sure they'd do it to us.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #16)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:03 AM

38. Every country builds acre sized data centers to store every phone calll made by us just like the NSA

Plus all emails, sites visited, our locations as we make those calls, a complete list of all our associations etc.

Everyone knows that, even small Caribbean countries know what you had for breakfast Mr Bill (that's just common knowledge, my first grade teacher taught me about it). People act like phone sex with their spouses WASN'T recorded by every country including our own. Dey stupid!

When is Snowden gonna leak somepin that wasn't common knowledge 10 years ago!

I'm SERIES111!!!11

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #38)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:06 AM

39. ...

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #38)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:20 AM

43. Yes!

 

- Bravo!

[center]
''Put on the damned glasses.''[/center]

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #38)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 07:56 AM

50. It's ONLY MEH-TAH DAY-TA !!!!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:57 AM

36. It absolutely 100% is her fault for using an unencrypted line.

The NSA isn't the only one listening and if you think that heads of states can safely use personal unencrypted phones for government business you've got to be so naive it's not even funny. It's just mind boggling that you would think only the NSA would spy on such a device.

You got ABIN in Brazil (which has openly stated it's going to spy on everyone for the World Cup). You got the FSB / GRU in Russia (which has openly stated that it's going to spy on everyone for the Olympics). You got the GIP in Saudi Arabia (which has materially supported fighters in Syria, as we are doing now). You got the MSS / SAR in China which has been caught doing economic espionage.

It's likely she didn't use the cell phone for government stuff so she probably isn't worried, if anything she's embarrassed.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #36)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:02 AM

54. The NSA can decrypt.

 

Do we know her phone was unsecured? And does that even matter? The NSA are masters at decrypting from everything I've read recently

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #36)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:05 AM

55. You see her skirt was very short and she was walking alone at night...

 

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #55)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 04:54 PM

62. She WAS just asking for it, practically BEGGING to be tapped.

Its not the fault of a virile and healthy Surveillance State if it gets aroused by a society that acts so free with itself and it's citizens, it had to act on that and spy hard and long or lose it's manhood.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #62)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 07:48 PM

67. It was 100% irresponsible to use an unsecure line and expect security.

Yes.

This false equivalence comparing a head of state using an unsecured line to victim blaming rape culture is absolutely ridiculous and embarrassing.

In fact it becomes a defense of the state surveillance culture because then it suggests that states won't do it and we should all expect security when the reality, in the examples I used, is the exact opposite.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #67)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 07:56 PM

69. So it was her fault we spied on her? Is there a law that says we MUST spy on an ally

just because we can?

What is that law called and does it apply to all of us as well?



You nailed it! If a young women gets drunk, one simply must insert penis when passed out because she was irresponsible and we simply must (because anyone can), she would hardly have a right to object after the fact, I think I am beginning to understand your mind. We should, in fact we must, listen in on a persons personal phone calls because it is irresponsible for them to use a phone to make them.

I hope no young women ever gets drunk around you tiger.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #69)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:01 PM

70. No. She used an unsecured line and should not expect security.

How hard is this to get?

She would do the same thing.

The German BND (Federal Intelligence Service, their CIA) is doing this same stuff.

And let's be absolutely 100% clear here. The BND is who gave the NSA intelligence before, that was the initial controversy. That's why the Germans made a mockery of Merkel, because she was the one giving information to the NSA but expected her private, unencrypted phone would be left alone, which is preposterous.

This line of argumentation is a no win. It's not comparable. Heads of states are not victims because they get spied on unsecured lines and expect security.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #70)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:04 PM

74. No, I understand perfectly, you just think a certain way which I find deplorable

I updated the above message before reading your reply but nothing in your reply causes me to think the addition is incorrect

bye tiger

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #74)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:08 PM

77. Vile, nasty characterization.

Just disgusting.

And complete false equivalence, reducing victims to a mere soundbite on a forum.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #77)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:10 PM

80. Your justification and lack of moral clarity that drives you to blame the victim

for the crime, is vile.

I was simply pointing out your "logic" that appears only lost on you...

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #80)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:13 PM

84. I am not defending spying.

I am saying no head of state should expect security in a surveillance state world. Especially if that head of state is in collusion with the NSA with NSA-BND security exchanging. Merkel colluded with the NSA, and she's being made out to be a victim here, it is absolutely preposterous how these nasty characterizations go just to score some damn points on the internet.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #84)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:19 PM

87. Not trying to score points, just think "our" actions are morally corrupt

That other nations have been corrupted by us into joining in the fun is of little comfort.

Blaming her for being spied on is the wrong way to go about what you appear to think you are accomplishing, that's all.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #87)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:23 PM

89. Of course they are.

So are Merkel's actions colluding with the NSA. You should know she's being mocked in Germany because she refused to comment on the NSA issue. The it turns out she was on the "A" list of people we spy on. How about them apples Merkel?

She is 100% responsible for using an unsecured line in a surveillance state world and I am not going to fall into this pathetic point scoring trap where you are making me out to be blaming the victim, sorry, you already called me a rapist, which really shows a nasty character there.

Merkel is not a victim because she spys on others too and she gave data to the NSA via the BND. She is the one who is also doing mass surveillance and therefore is not a victim.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #89)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:44 PM

97. She's had a secure cell phone since Obama became a president

 

Stop saying "she's 100% responsible because she was using an unsecure line".

That's demonstrably false and your victim blaming is disgusting.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #97)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:04 PM

99. Ouch.

 

Mate.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #97)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:33 PM

101. Once secured the taps failed.

I know you like to argue that the NSA is all powerful and can decrypt everything but they can't get through properly encrypted and secured devices. The fact that lavabit went down is proof of that, the NSA needs the encryption keys before it can get through.

Stop trying to make Merkel out to be a victim because she gave German information over to the NSA and had a tight lip about it until it turned out that she herself was being spied upon.

There is zero evidence that the NSA has tapped into Merkel's secured phone.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #101)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:59 PM

109. Link to a source that the taps failed. nt

 

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #109)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:02 PM

110. Link a source that says they succeeded.

I can prove that a secured line can't be tapped.

Do you contest that Merkel's phone was secured in 2009?

If not then you must accept that the NSA needs keys to access it.

Otherwise you're having a serious failing of logic here.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #110)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:16 PM

114. There's a ton of sites demonstrating the NSA can break encrypted phones

 

I don't contest her phone was encrypted at all. In fact I 110% believe Merkels phone had the highest security (or so she believed).

You're the one who doesn't believe her phone was broken by the NSA. Prove it or stop making unfounded claims of its infallibility.

Obama's own convo with Merkel with his shady rhetoric is proof positive imho.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #69)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:13 PM

82. and if you're naive enough to believe the germans, our allies, aren't spying on us,as well as mossad

and MI6, can't really help you.

gotta give creativity points to the insinuation the person you replied to is a fucking rapist.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #82)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:20 PM

88. It's ironic because Merkel colluded with the NSA.

And she's being mocked in Germany for feigning disgust that she was spied upon, after being silent on the NSA controversy all this time.

Victim blaming? Calling me a rapist? Totally preposterous forum point scoring soundbites, in defense of Merkel who colluded with the NSA.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #88)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:25 PM

90. I didn't call you a rapist, but victim blaming, in a context you might understand

was a bit over your head it would appear.

I agree with the irony, but not spying on an ally. I will feel the same when she spies on Obama, if there is ever any evidence of that.

That will if it happens also be ironic, and just as wrong.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #90)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:45 PM

104. Oh yeah, you've been so cordial and nice.

Your problem is that I am in agreement with you but you don't like my characterizing this as standard operation procedure for states. Oh, far be it for me to point out states aren't pure as the driven snow! That's not a damn justification for what they do, it's recognizing that they aren't going to do the right thing, for their own interests.

The fact that Merkel is giving information on German citizens to the NSA is the most fucked up part of it if you ask me, she has no right to be upset when it backfires. If we were honest with ourselves we'd come out and say "hey we spy on people, sorry, but it's gotta be done." But no, we pretend like we have no interest in it!

I mean shit when fucking Putin of all people, former KGB, is trashing spying you know you're living in an Orwellian world where people say one thing and do another. When Russia openly admits that every phone will be tapped at the Olympics. Every phone. Every. Phone.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #88)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:27 PM

92. the naivete knows no bounds, apparently.

just because everyone who can afford a spy agency spies their asses off, doesn't make it right, but to think we're the only culprits in the espionage game is breathtakingly stupid.



now try not to rape anybody you evil bastard you

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Response to dionysus (Reply #92)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:30 PM

93. I take it you have proof the Germans tapped Obama's phone as well? Assumptions appear

to know no bounds.

As I said, if they ever do tap his phone, it will be ironic, but just as wrong.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #67)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:03 PM

73. Where are y getting that she was using an unsecure phone?

 

Businessinsider.com reports just the opposite. That her cell is highly encrypted

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #73)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:06 PM

76. It didn't get encypted until 2009.

You'll note this stuff started a long time ago, not even under Obama. He just didn't stop it.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #76)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:11 PM

81. So her cell is encrypted and the NSA goes to the effort to decrypt it?!

 

For the past 4 years! This happened under Obama. It takes real effort to work at decrypting her cell.

And this is an ally!

Your persistence in trying to hide the fact that her cell is encrypted, and.has been for many years, smells like willful obfuscation.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #81)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:17 PM

86. It started in 2002.

I'm not trying to hide anything. I don't think they had been successful at decrypting the phone once it had the encryption added. Yet she's still been on the list of targets that Snowden released. That's the part that's so controversial, that the US would target heads of states. Because, yeah, the US is so pure and wonderful that the US would never ever do anything like that.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #86)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:26 PM

91. For as long as Obama has been President, Merkel's phone has been encrypted

 

GW Bush and Cheney are vile enough that nothing was beyond them in their voracious corporate greed (which I suspect is the biggest use for the NSA data collection).

Obama's NSA however wasn't tapping an unsecured line. They were going after communications our FRIEND AND ALLY wanted to keep private.

That's fucked up. I'm not surprised the Germans are pissed off

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #91)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:34 PM

102. And they didn't succeed under Obama.

That's the damn point. The phone, once secured, was untappable. Merkel remained on the NSA's A list of people to spy upon. There is zero evidence the taps were successful on a secured phone.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #102)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:47 PM

105. That's why Obama said there's no tapping now or going forward...

 

Really?!

He couldn't say that it hadn't occurred under his Admin when Angela Merkel called in a huff.... She created an international rift with a close ally over nothing?

Provide proof that there was no tapping of Merkels cell phone for the past 5 years.

Proof there was no tapping of Merkel's phone in the past 5 years and I'll stand down. Otherwise you only have your own blind faith in a flawed admin

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #105)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:53 PM

107. I doubt he had all the details.

Obama: "Are we tapping the phone?"

Official: "No sir."

Obama: "OK, let me clear that up. No, there's no phone tapping right now nor will there be."

Official: "Mr. President, apparently we did tap it under Bush, on the unsecured line."

Obama: "Well fuck."

Official: "And Merkel is on the 'A' list of people we spy on."

Obama: "Holy fucking shit. This is an epic fuck up."

Provide proof that they tapped a secure line and you'll get a prize in mathematics because they can't tap it. This whole subthread is about the secure line. Which was secured shortly after Obama took office.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #102)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:52 PM

106. Whether successful or not, they tried nonetheless, now why would they try to tap

the phone of a head of state; being our friend and ally which you posted upthread had cooperated with the NSA?

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #106)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:56 PM

108. You expect better of intelligence agencies?

They're the most fucked up and immoral actors on the planet. Have you not seen the history of CIA involvement and meddling in other countries? Really? Almost every modern war can really be blamed on intelligence agencies meddling somewhere. Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Libya, almost all of Latin America. All precipitated by the CIA and NSA like structures.

The reason?

Because they can.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #108)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:04 PM

111. Then you agree the NSA has overstepped its' bounds and needs to be reigned in or curtailed? n/t

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #111)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:09 PM

112. Absolutely, 100%.

Read my posts. People keep falsely thinking I'm defending the NSA and the US government. I am not, I'm saying it's standard operating procedure, one can only hope something good comes of this.

But I guarantee you this won't stop Germany's BND from giving data to the US's NSA. Nothing changes.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #112)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:12 PM

113. Does the NSA have a legitimate reason for being or should we scrap it all together? n/t

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #113)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:16 PM

115. scrap it and the cia

full and absolute transparency

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #115)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:20 PM

116. How would you handle the issue of U.S. enemies overseas, are the terrorists for real? n/t

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #116)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:42 PM

117. That's where transparency comes in.

If you have absolute transparency in how you operate, then you can be trusted.

For foreign terrorists you give aid and training (edit: to the country the terrorists are operating in), not drones and bombs.

The CIA and NSA really aren't necessary. The terrorist threat is so overblown and exaggerated it's a damn joke. The CIA has probably hurt human progress far more than it has helped it.

Odds of being killed by a terrorist are 1 in 20 million (ie, you can get struck by lightning 4 times before it happens to you): http://reason.com/archives/2011/09/06/how-scared-of-terrorism-should

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #55)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 07:45 PM

66. This is BS victim blaming crap.

You should be ashamed for even trying to make the comparison. Heads of states are not victims for other states spying on them, because they spy on other states.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #66)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 07:54 PM

68. So you're saying Obama knows all about everything that's being done by the NSA? n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #68)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:01 PM

71. Nope.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #71)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:05 PM

75. You said heads of state spy on other states

If the head of state drives the spying then they know about it.

On the other hand if the head of state doesn't know about the spying then they didn't drive it.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #75)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:08 PM

78. Forget about the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor Fume, he's "on a roll" and doesn't need to make sense

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #75)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:10 PM

79. "All about everything" is a lot to know.

I do not think Obama knows "all about everything" the NSA is doing.

I think that he likely knew that heads of states were being spied upon as well as embassies, but I suspect he told them to make it a "need to know basis" so he could plausibly deny that he actually knew Merkel herself was tapped but had a general idea of what was going on.

In 50 years when the FOIA comes out, and we read all the recordings, I suspect that's what it will imply.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #79)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:13 PM

83. ...

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #55)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:57 PM

98. stupid comparison, rape is wrong in every case, but spying is not , is it wrong to spy on China ?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 10:57 PM

6. Ok, on my way right freaking now

with a message to zee Germans.

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Response to Hutzpa (Reply #6)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:41 AM

44. ...

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:02 PM

7. I heard Obama told Frau Merkel straight up

that we don't listen to her phone calls now.

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Response to pscot (Reply #7)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:05 PM

10. What, does she think "now" denotes an *instant* of time?

 

Last edited Mon Oct 28, 2013, 06:48 AM - Edit history (1)

Like, she thinks that we'd stop tapping her for a few minutes while Obama called her, then start tapping her again?

Sheesh!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:11 PM

14. The Chancelor knows the truth, Manny.

 

She was Eastern Bloc. She knows who spies and who doesn't.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #14)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:30 PM

23. So because she was "Eastern Bloc", she knows who spies and who doesn't?

 

All hail the German Chancellor! She knows!

Merkel uber alles!!

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #23)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:46 AM

35. Yes, she does, in fact know.

She downplayed the original revelations, but when it turned out her personal non-secure phone was tapped she made a huge fuss over it. The German people are more annoyed that she made a fuss over it once it turned out her phone was tapped than they are about the surveillance state. It looks like the NSA is going to make a treaty with the German government (use Google translate) not to spy on one another. But German intelligence was the one who originally handed over the data, it wasn't the NSA taking it. So said "treaty" will probably have a clause in there saying "we will share with each other what we will share" and therefore nothing will change.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:20 PM

21. Merkel is being awfully ungrateful

i mean, Bush gave her that free neck rub and everything.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #21)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:25 PM

22. Come to think of it, at that moment we

 

should have realized she's way to uptight. What kind of woman world leader doesn't get all melty feeling the firm hands of a man who can command hundreds of thousands of troops into battle just for kicks?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #22)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:32 PM

24. Manny...do you realize your phone is tapped and there's a camera on you?

 

I can see everything you're doing.

Put some pants on, sheesh.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #24)

Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:37 PM

25. My apologies!

 

My fishnets usually don't have runs in them!

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #24)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:02 AM

26. "Those ARE my pants!"

I don't even know what that means.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #26)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:21 AM

29. I can see you too!

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #29)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:31 AM

31. Shhhhh

You're gonna blow my cover!


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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #31)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:42 AM

45. I wouldn't blow that for all the money in Mitt Romney's couch.

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #45)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 02:02 AM

47. Gee, whiz.



I suppose next you're going to tell me the sport coat with the sweater isn't a good look.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:27 AM

30. Sorry Merkel that's the price u pay for 9/11 Hijackers mtg & lvg Germany undetected


Look Merkel & Germany...you're partly to blame for 9/11 by letting these guys all meet up for happy meals in your backyard. Get over it and let it go.

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Response to SoCalCisco (Reply #30)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:38 AM

32. Do we as American citizens get the same award, and for what perceived wrongs do we

 


pay the NSA with our constitutional rights?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #32)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:01 AM

37. Americans lost their Constitutuonal Rights long before Snowden told us we had with

the Patriot Act

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Response to SoCalCisco (Reply #37)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:09 AM

40. Thank Gawd we finally voted for an administration that would damn well keep it that way!

Cheney was smart, it would be stupid not to continue what he and his puppet made such advances in.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #40)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:12 AM

60. Welcome to our post 9/11 world. Better than post 9/11 "GOP" world

Before the Boston marathon bombing, there were no terrorist attacks since 9/11 due in big part to these U.S. and international cells getting caught before hand through this type of intel. How do u think we find these guys and chase them down with drones or SEALS? Do you ever buy a plane ticket Dragonfli? You're giving more personal info than before that's now going to Homeland security. It sucks not to mention sucks at the airport itself.

Given the digital world we're living in the credit reporting agency is worse than nat'l security agency. Has the NSA prevented people from getting jobs or run background Walmart background checks? NSA wants to waste time to listen to my calls? Go for it. Not losing sleep over it man.

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Response to SoCalCisco (Reply #60)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 04:47 PM

61. With all due respect, spying on all Americans does not make us safe, the one chance to prove they

Were spending so much energy collecting everything about us to prevent "Terra" (Boston) proved only the opposite.

You may long for a post civil liberty country with a Stazi like government and absolutely no expectation of privacy or rights because it makes you "feel safe", but some of us prefer America and a Constitution you appear to feel is decorative toilet paper.

There are countries already designed to your liking, move there, let us have a free society with all the rights and privacy's that citizens are supposed to be guaranteed, your rhetoric was old when Cheney first began spouting it. If they had focused on terrorists rather than the leaders of our allies in Europe and all of us, 911 would not have happened.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:09 AM

27. "DONT MENTION THE WAR!"

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:12 AM

28. This isn't coming from Snowden, though.

 

It's coming from NSA documents that Snowden had in his possession. Which is somethng entirely different and not "nonsense". Calling it nonsense, and attempting to make it about Snowden, rather than the NSA actions he revealed, is very telling, really.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #28)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:33 AM

51. You mean. like...Snowden has no message?!?

Clearly, First Way Manny is a park dwelling, bongo playing, leaderless emotarian Randian Snowdenite.


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Response to Zorra (Reply #51)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 06:36 PM

64. And a Ted Cruz leftist

 



That's the new ultimate insult

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #64)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:35 PM

95. Ted Cruz is the worst sort of leftist, FUCKING COMMIE that one!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:39 AM

33. The Germans are more annoyed by Merkel's double standard.

As opposed to surveillance in general.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 12:45 AM

34. Your money will be waiting at Drop Zone Zebra.

The usual assortment of small, untraceable, non-declarable bills.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:10 AM

41. Yep, it's no biggie really

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:17 AM

42. Once again...

 

...I ask the question, Are we really 'monitoring' (e.g., listening in) these calls, or are we simply storing data of calls - dates/time/duration - between random numbers? I mean anybody that's watched any Law&Order episodes knows that ol' Lennie Briscoe and Jack McCoy have been accessing the LUDs (Local Usage Details) of perps for decades. My bet is that this is all we're doing...capturing and storing connectivity details so as to track electronic contacts between numbers, email, Twitter, etc., and then a call from a known terrorist can be followed to whoever it leads - including to Ms Merkle...kinda like a Six Degrees of Separation between bad guys and their friends.

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Response to DirtyDawg (Reply #42)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 04:47 AM

49. I think you are right, The Germans are lying about what is pissing them off

I can tell you read all about it like the rest of us, and like the rest of us you naturally concluded that everyone, even the NSA was lying. A grand conspiracy concocted to hide the true facts revealed by you today that they are really pissed about LUDs that led to Chancellor Merkel (as well as 38 other leaders and several dozen million other Europeans) "because bad guys are their friends!!!!!"

"35 leaders had their phones tapped" indeed!

Conspiracy of liars that don't know what a phone tap is (including the plants at the NSA, sneaky bastards)

Bravo for seeing through the multinational conspiracy, or simply being smart enough not to read any of the news concerning the issue.

Will you run for public office?

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Response to DirtyDawg (Reply #42)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:09 AM

56. The TPM article says, essentially, that it was metadata. At least for Spain.

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/report-us-spied-on-60-million-calls-in-spain

It says the NSA monitored the numbers and duration of the calls, but not their content.


I'm betting the same is true for other countries.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:49 AM

46. K&R

 

- I'd call her Manny, but I don't know her number.

Dees R4 Angela.....

''Bawak say he sawwy 2''

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:35 AM

52. Can someone ring up George Bush and ask him why Merkel was under surveillance?

He is still around somewhere, isn't he?

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Response to Bolo Boffin (Reply #52)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:39 PM

96. Can someone ring up Barack Obama and let him know he's been POTUS for five years?

A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The White House.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #96)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 09:08 PM

100. Can someone ring up Fumesucker and let him know

he's on a liberal and Democratic board?


ETA: Seriously, I really don't understand your issue in my pointing out that George Bush started this bullshit and no one seems to be knocking on his door asking him what for. Dick Cheney was interviewed by Morning Joe yesterday and the issue seems to have vanished. It would have been nice to hear Cheney justify that bullshit policy.

You got a problem with me pointing that out, Fumesucker?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:32 AM

57. It's so embarassing being European just now.


All these guys going WAAAAH. And Snowden's such a narcissistic, treacherous, cowardly, jail-deserving, unimportant person.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #57)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:51 AM

58. Latest Snowden memes are that he's a naive, stupid patsy

 

Who is also narcissistic, cowardly etc etc. I figured you'd want to be up on the latest smears....

For such an unimportant guy who didn't expose anything everyone already knew, there's a ton of effort being made to discredit him.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #58)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 11:05 AM

59. The colossal IMPORTANCE of his unimportance has never been lost on me.


He's so very SIGNIFICANTLY insignificant, isn't he?



They're so clumsy...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 04:59 PM

63. "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail..."

 

Because, as Stimson so eloquently stated early in the 20th century, "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail..."


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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 06:59 PM

65. I tried to call and they told me she was busy talking to Putin

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 08:02 PM

72. Haha, good one, Manny!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 10:37 PM

103. Did someone say the Germans?

Don't mention the war!

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