once again, we have the damn mentality that the man is all that and fuck the woman. wtf is this.

[seabeyond]

women choice to get preg, she could abort. NO paying women maternity. no, wrong, bad. men are being picked on.

who the fuck got the woman preg? so we really are going to take our god damn misogyny a step further and give a huge ass thumbs up for men at the time of conception yet they are allowed the privilege of having no more fuckin responsibility for it after that?

and then we are promoting this health care as all about taking care of women and men are being denied medical care????

am i on another planet here. it sounds as if we are sittin in the middle of amarillo texas, and i am listening to all the fox news watching, knuckle dragging, fundamentalist repugs.

really, a democratic board?

[Kaleva]

1. And it's a woman arguing that point to boot!

[Cerridwen]

11. "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog

[Hekate]

86. I think of that little gem often here

[pnwmom]

106. Or claims to be. But some of the posts made me wonder. n/t

[CreekDog]

108. or representing themselves as a woman

that poster, like others we've had from time to time, is saying lots of things about themselves.

are those things true?

i think it's reasonable to doubt.

[Kaleva]

110. I haven't read enough of what that person posts...

to really have a good idea either way although the poster was brought up in Meta from time to time.

[Dash87]

118. That's it. Everybody needs to know.

I'm Cthulu.

[Gravitycollapse]

2. Does the ACA cover prostate exams?

[seabeyond]

3. does it cover breast exams? nt

[Gravitycollapse]

4. I don't actually know. That's why I'm asking. Does the ACA cover either?

[seabeyond]

7. that is what everyone seems to be up in arms with. seems like this is the angle to use, to suggest

something is unfair. though seems like a breast test and prostate test kinda crosses both out. but then, i did not know we were working so hard on a tit for tat kinda scale. where does viagra fall in all this.

i know it is bullshit.

[Gravitycollapse]

15. I understand what you're saying. I also know who it is that's trolling GD...

And their past statements.

However, sometimes the wrong people have the right information. If the ACA doesn't cover prostate exams, that's a pretty serious problem. If the ACA doesn't cover breast exams, that's a pretty serious problem. We can state both of those in no particular order in order to negate the possible perception that one is more important than the other.

[seabeyond]

19. that is fine. address the very serious problem. that has nothing to do with maternity

and it has NOTHING to do with men being picked on since it is both men and women.

address the issue. but not strawman bullshit arguments.

[Gravitycollapse]

22. Yeah, I don't think it's men being picked on. Every aspect of life is designed to benefit men...

I highly doubt a grand conspiracy in this case of women trying to fuck over men. That would run contrary to the reality of the paternal state.

[Nay]

101. Yeah, that's the idea that riles me -- men are picked on = women did it. Now,

wait just a damn minute. 99% of the time it is OTHER MEN who have designed and implemented the outrage that the outraged men are upset about.

[kestrel91316]

51. Under ACA preventive care is free and medical care is covered.

That seems to upset some poor babies here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. Yes, and it need not be part of a regular physical. n/t

[seabeyond]

54. prostate is covered also, in yearlies. so whoever brought up the bogus bullshit to whine misandry

was incorrect.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. not really.

*ring*
Dr Smith's office.
- I'd like a mammogram.
Sure thing. How about tomorrow?
- how much will it cost?
nothing.
- thanks!

*ring*
Dr Smith's office
- I'd like a PSA test
Is this for your annual physical?
- No, but I'd like a PSA test
Okay, How about tomorrow?
- how much will it cost?
your copay will be about $200, and by the way you're a sexist-guy pukey-type whom i detest.

[seabeyond]

57. how effective is the psa, and is it harmful. what is the issue with it lumberjack?

why is this? to be unfair to men? because they want men with prostate cancer to die? is there any reasonable reason why they do not cover the PSA? anything? just to have a balance discussion.

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. I dunno.

Is it his body and his choice? Or isn't his request for the cancer screening enough?

Does anyone ask me the cost benefit analysis for mammograms? Should they?

The arguments about whether prostate cancer screenings are useful carry the unmistakable overtones of "here's someplace we could save some money."

[Gravitycollapse]

62. Actually, I just read such a story about mammograms not too long ago...

Many argue that regular mammograms are not necessary.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec12/mammograms_12-25.html

Care to try your argument again?

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. Are you now saying that mammograms shouldn't be free? n/t

[Gravitycollapse]

66. What I'm saying is a discussion exists where you don't seem to see one.

Cost/benefit discussions are under way for both procedures. But you seem to believe no such discussion exists for mammograms and that is the case because we are trying to screw over men? Is that a fair representation of your argument?

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. The nature of the cost/benefit discussion is moot.

the law explicitly says that mammograms are free, and by omission that PSA tests are not.

something something patriarchal male-centric something something.

[Gravitycollapse]

71. Yes, but are excessive mammograms considered harmful to women's health?

Because the case of negative health consequences seems to be the main reason why multiple annual PSA screenings are not covered.

[seabeyond]

65. if you do not know what the issue is, maybe you should educate yourself.

http://www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20120524/psa-screening-controversy-faq?page=3

[CreekDog]

112. health care isn't a snack bar. how clueless. WHY is breast cancer screening covered?

because it's recommended because it's effective and does more good than harm.

why is the PSA test not recommended for all? because it does more harm than good.

health care isn't a salad bar or we wouldn't depend on professionals to provide it.

besides, why do only men's civil rights bother you? that's not supporting civil rights, that's just supporting one group.

[antigone382]

122. Doctors have an ethical and legal responsibility to refuse care that does more harm than good.

It's my body but I can't *choose* to walk up to a doctor and get a prescription for drugs that could be addictive or harmful just because I want it.

I can't get antibiotics for any old infection, even a mild bacterial one...because even though it might quickly ease my personal symptoms, it could have terrible effects on public health by increasing the antibiotic resistance of bacteria.

I can't demand to have my liver removed because I personally feel that it would improve my health regardless of solid scientific evidence to the contrary.

And I can't get a free ovarian cancer screening because the current test is highly unreliable; although I can get more effective physical tests that may indicate such screening is needed.

So no, with regard to many medical procedures, it is not "your body, your choice," any more than it is "my body, my choice."

[mercuryblues]

89. A PSA

has a 75% false positive rate. It also does not pick up certain types of cancer leading to false negatives.

[seabeyond]

98. thanks for the info mercury. 75% is pretty high. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

59. It appears the screening of PSA is quite literally not recommended by medical bodies.

And may actually be pointless or even harmful.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. The same debate is offered about mammograms and breast cancer genetic screening.

Ultimately, it is up to the woman in question to decide whether to have the testing, and the ACA has sensibly removed financial barriers from that decision.

That is not the case with PSA testing.

[bettyellen]

102. it's never been up to me, it's up to the recommendation of my doc, who follows

guidelines. I couldn't get one when I was in my twenties, and that's okay. I get screwed by the guidelines.
Mammos are a waste of time on me, I need a more intense type of screening. Which I can only prove by going through a very painful mammo first, every year. Even though the docs know a mommo is useless on me, guidelines. OUCH!!

[CreekDog]

125. No, the same debate is not offered about mammograms and breast cancer genetic screening

stop with the false assertions that claim there is the same level of doubt about both types of screening. there isn't.

if you're going to misrepresent medical science and thinking to peddle some theory about men suffering some civil rights violation by not getting a test that is just as needed for them as for women --just save it. it ain't flying.

what you have posted is designed to get people to think something factually wrong.

http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/uspstf/uspsbrca.htm

in this case, breast cancer screening is still recommended for all, but the timing has now changed.

http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/prostatecancerscreening.htm

in this case, the PSA test is found to be unreliable and have other problems and results and is not recommended to all and that a new test to detect the cancer is needed.

and you tried to pass these off as the same. what BS.

and before I finish, let's just remind people that in your Quixotic quest to misrepresent the health care law as mistreating men, you posted other nonsense about the law that was proven false. and here you go again.

[phylny]

92. My husband's PSA testing literally saved his life.

He had no symptoms, nada, zilch, of prostate cancer. His PSA was elevated. Digital exam was troubling. Biopsy was horrendous. Surgery to remove his prostate followed.

Without that PSA test, the doctor said my husband would have been dead within two years.

So, to hell with the medical bodies, it saved my husband's life.

[whopis01]

104. I guess in your scenario it must have been at least a year or two since her last mammogram

since she was able to get one scheduled for tomorrow?

The insurance companies are only required to cover them for free every 1 to 2 years - not on demand as your scenario implies.

Also the $200 copay for the PSA seems kind of odd. I realize it can vary from plan to plan - but, for example, those covered by medicare can receive a PSA test for free every 12 months.

[VanillaRhapsody]

127. You do realize they are only going to allow one mammogram a year right?

It's not like you go get mammograms every other week. It's part of your yearly physical after a certain age.

[hunter]

82. No, it's not equivalent.

Past a certain age any doctor is going to do a prostate exam and ask if you have trouble pissing. I've had the finger up the butt, PSA, and sometimes my pissing is a little slow, no longer writing-my-name in big ten foot letters in the snow.

But not the same as breast, cervical, or ovarian cancer.

You saw this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3940200

If not... sigh.

[Enthusiast]

88. Me too

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. You did know that the ACA was passed two full years before the recommendation? Right?

At the time the ACA was passed, mammograms and PSA tests were both recommended.

Getting tested should be your choice, it shouldn't have been up to congress. They wrote it the way they did for one reason; votes.

[CreekDog]

114. You don't know the law you are pretending to quote

the ACA doesn't list or name specific tests or preventative care, it says that insurers must cover those which are given high grades by the task force. you should know better, that's just patent misinformation from you.

they aren't naming one kind of treatment in ACA, in law, that's ridiculous, treatments change, recommendations change.

the Task Force recommendations change --while ACA doesn't change, the treatments it mandates change along with the Task Force recommendations.

so if PSA screening or a new form is found to be awesome in the future, it will be covered, but right now it's problematic, so it's not.

if mammograms are found by the Task Force to be wanting, they won't be covered to the same extent.

but you are being absolutely misleading and ridiculous to suggest that ACA including language about the specific treatments covered in 2009 and that was how coverage is being determined. that's nonsense and you know it.

okay, maybe you don't know it. and in that case, you should be quiet about what you don't know because you are spreading misinformation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. Let me explain this.

SEC. 2713. COVERAGE OF PREVENTIVE HEALTH SERVICES.
‘(a) In General- A group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage shall, at a minimum provide coverage for and shall not impose any cost sharing requirements for--

‘(1) evidence-based items or services that have in effect a rating of ‘A’ or ‘B’ in the current recommendations of the United States Preventive Services Task Force;

‘(2) immunizations that have in effect a recommendation from the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention with respect to the individual involved; and

‘(3) with respect to infants, children, and adolescents, evidence-informed preventive care and screenings provided for in the comprehensive guidelines supported by the Health Resources and Services Administration.

‘(4) with respect to women, such additional preventive care and screenings not described in paragraph (1) as provided for in comprehensive guidelines supported by the Health Resources and Services Administration for purposes of this paragraph.

‘(5) for the purposes of this Act, and for the purposes of any other provision of law, the current recommendations of the United States Preventive Service Task Force regarding breast cancer screening, mammography, and prevention shall be considered the most current other than those issued in or around November 2009.

Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit a plan or issuer from providing coverage for services in addition to those recommended by United States Preventive Services Task Force or to deny coverage for services that are not recommended by such Task Force.

What this says is that procedures rated A and B by USPSTF should be covered free of charge. Additionally, if and only if the patient is a woman, everything listed in the comprehensive guidelines supported by the HRSA should be free of charge too.

[Lars39]

5. As part of a yearly physical, yes.

And that is when prostate exams are normally done.

Yearly physicals are also when breast exams are done.

[Gravitycollapse]

8. Does the ACA cover prostate exams that are requested by a doctor for a specific purpose?

Outside of a general exam? Such as someone who's showing symptoms of a prostate disorder or prostate cancer?

[Lars39]

16. That I don't know, but I would think that it would be covered by insurance like

any other health problem would. Prostate exam by regular doctor or health care provider--->then more in depth tests to determine what was going on.

[Gravitycollapse]

18. Okay, so it's pretty likely that the ACA covers all sorts of prostate exams. And that deflates...

the cries of gender inequity from the Men's Rights types running around on certain Democratic message boards.

[seabeyond]

21. but if breast cancer screening is included in this it ALREADY deflates the bullshit mens right

argument.

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. "covers" <> "free"

If your deductible isn't satisfied, your PSA test will cost you $200. A mammogram is free regardless if your deductible is satisfied.

[Gravitycollapse]

69. It would seem that the intent is to minimize possible harm from prostate exam overscreening.

The argument against consistent mammograms seems to revolve around the uselessness of overscreening and not necessarily any sort of harm as a result. Hence, your argument that the reason why men can't get constant PSA screenings is because we're trying to rip them off makes no sense in this context.

What seems to be the issue here is a solid body of evidence that the overuse of prostate exams can have negative health consequences.

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. His body, his choice.

Arbitrary financial barriers to male reproductive health aren't there for medical reasons, they are in the ACA for political ones.

[Gravitycollapse]

73. You don't seem to understand the difference here so I'll try again.

The overuse of mammograms appears to simply be useless

The overuse of prostate exams appears to be both useless as well as pose negative health consequences for the male.

In this context, it would seem to be obvious that the reason why non-necessary prostate exams are not covered is because they are potential detrimental to the male's health. Whereas the overusage of mammograms are simply a waste of money. Precisely the opposite of your own argument that we just want to screw men over financially.

[antigone382]

113. Point 1: there are many medical procedures that no ethical doctor will carry out electively.

It may be my body, but I do not have the choice to demand any medical service I want, such as prescriptions for certain medications that are harmful or addictive in incorrect amounts. A doctor who *did* gratify that choice would be committing a crime. Whether that should or should not be the case is debatable, but it certainly is not gender specific. For that matter, try getting your tubes tied as a young woman with no children, and see how long it takes you to find a doctor to carry out the procedure.

Point 2: in the case of the PSA test, it still *is* your body, your choice. The simple reality is that if you want to have that test carried out at a rate that scientific evidence shows is more harmful than it is beneficial, it is going to have to be on your own dime.

[CreekDog]

126. you're saying a congress, the Senate and the president discriminated against men

all the men in congress, the men in the Senate and the male president purposely wrote or supported a law that harmed men.

that's what you're saying?

you're being ridiculous.

[tammywammy]

23. It would be the same if a woman's doctor requested a mammogram outside the norm

Also, a prostate exam (finger up the butt type) IS covered as part of the annual physical. What the one poster is going on about, I believe, is the PSA which is not considered preventative since it's usefulness is under debate. It may actually cause more issues than it prevents.

See here:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/10/prostate-cancer-screening-not-necessary-for-most-men-government-advisory-board-says/index.htm

[seabeyond]

9. then wtf is everyone going on about. geeez. thank you for the info. nt

[seabeyond]

14. btu that really is NOT what my post is about. we give ALL the preg to the woman. it is ALL about

her being coddled and taken care of at the mans expense.

MY POINT:

who got her preg and why the fuck should men get off the hook of any and all responsibility once he has done the deed?

tell me. why?

[SQUEE]

119. Because women have demanded, fought for and received sole sovereignty of their wombs..

And I implore you please, please, please do not fall for this trap that is being laid by people that want to take it away.

[Hekate]

85. You do know that's part of your annual physical, don't you? So yes, it's covered.

[pnwmom]

107. Of course it does! That's a normal part of a man's physical.

The real question is what screening tests it covers, and that is determined by research, not by the gender of the person. Some screening tools have turned out not to improve patient outcomes -- like colonoscopies over the age of 80. They shouldn't be covered.

[CreekDog]

109. yes, if they are medically necessary

do they cover universal prostate screening at a younger age than is necessary? no.

does it cover universal breast cancer screening at a younger age than is necessary? no.

[TDale313]

6. No, you're not wrong.

Not just misogyny, but completely RW talking points, too.

[NoOneMan]

10. The entire paradigm in which Americans view health insurance is one single RW talking point

So really, why does any of this surprise anyone? As far as private, for profit insurers are in charge of the hen house, pushing the lessers aside with deductibles and copays, it will remain like this. Insurance is not about taking care of people. Its about getting yours and saving money at others expense. That is what insurance in America means.

[Pab Sungenis]

12. Translation

"Man bad."

Men shouldn't have to pay for coverage for women's reproductive health nor should women pay for coverage for men's reproductive health.

I don't need coverage for maternity and you don't need coverage for prostate issues.

However we ALL spread the risk around and we ALL contribute for each other. Gender doesn't enter into it.

This is why we shouldn't have pick and choose policies, but a standard blanket coverage.

[seabeyond]

17. it is HIS damn seed in the woman that is causing all the issue. so ya, in YOUR book a man fucks and

walks and has no responsibility.

and wtf does that have to do with your pitty "Man bad." bullshit. you are the one that says a man should get to fuck and walk. that simple.

[Pab Sungenis]

20. Did I say he should walk?

No. And I pointed out that yes, we should all have the same coverage to spread the risk and the cost out.

But since you can't seem to accept that a man can ever do anything right....

[seabeyond]

34. no, it was the man bad bullshit and the first sentence.

i didnt read it all.

[pitbullgirl1965]

29. Agreed!

n/t

ETA: I have no idea what the OP is saying tbh.

[kestrel91316]

58. What's with the extremely misogynist flamebaiting here?

Do you make a habit of this or are you just having a bad night and need to take your blankie and go to bed?

[tammywammy]

60. Habit. n/t

[Pab Sungenis]

84. It's not misogyny.

It's a reaction to the overly aggressive misandrist tone of the OP.

You'll note I agree with her position but resent the presentation.

[seabeyond]

99. what is the problem? that is how it is being presented. where am i not factually correct?

if it is quacking walking looking like a duck, then i get to call it a duck. i spoke too aggressively for you? who cares. charge women more for preg while a man is 1/2 for that preg. ya.... that would be PISSED

[quinnox]

13. No idea what this is about

anyhow. And so, a funny pic -

[whttevrr]

27. Yeah...

I think I missed a post that this is referring to.

Not the queso cheesus post, but the OP of:


man bad woman not democracy RW talking point word salad, mix, ad infinitum.

[Renew Deal]

28. Men rule, women drool

Not sure I got much more than that from this post. I'm sure there's some long standing history on this one.

[SMC22307]

36. May I offer up some clues?

Lap dancing, drinking, boyfriend woes, USA is the bestest country on earth and if you don't like it, FUCK OFF!1111, and... self-delete.

[FarCenter]

24. If health care is a public good, the public will debate each service; who gets what, when, how much

Health care by the government is health care as politics, with all the influence, corruption and graft we have come to expect.

And the next step is to coerce you into following a good healthy lifestyle.

[ScreamingMeemie]

33. That is already happening.

[leftstreet]

83. Why don't they do that with Medicare?

I've never heard anyone debate what services a senior citizen should get, when, where or how much

[FarCenter]

94. There is considerable debate; for example, should men over 70 get PSA tests

Most prostate cancers are slow growing, so if prostate cancer develops after 70, men will usually die of something else first.

Besides the cost of PSA tests, which is fairly low, there is the cost and medical risk of a large number of biopsies due to the high false alarm rate of PSA tests. Further, biopsies which confirm cancer are often followed by surgery or other procedures which are costly, carry significant medical risk and cause debilitating problems, such as incontinence, but do not extend life.

[Renew Deal]

25. Should men have a say when a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy?

"so we really are going to take our god damn misogyny a step further and give a huge ass thumbs up for men at the time of conception yet they are allowed the privilege of having no more fuckin responsibility for it after that?"

[seabeyond]

30. ya. not into choice huh? ergo, since men cant dictate a preg or lack of, they do not have to take

responsibility for the seed. k... gotcha. no surprise there.

[Gravitycollapse]

38. I won't lie to you, the matter of responsibility is a somewhat complicated subject.

And an instance where theory does not necessarily fit application.

If a man has no say in a woman deciding to have an abortion, and he absolutely does not, then it becomes harder, at least theoretically, to argue that he has a responsibility to the future child.

[seabeyond]

42. wrong. that is one of the oh so not fair moments in a mans life. no. it is not tough. not fair

the woman has to grow the baby in side her. not fair she needs all these body parts to create a baby. not fair not fair.... life is full of fuckin not fairs. not fair i have to have a menstrual every fucking month for decades. waaaa.

she is growing the baby in her body. lots of not fair. so, she decides. keep or not. adn the man has to suck it up either way. not fair.

see it is easy, theoretically to call it.

[Gravitycollapse]

44. Identifying what is not fair should not be the same as endorsing what is not fair.

And I, regrettably, must point out to you that you seem to be doing the latter in this case.

The right to have an abortion is the right to make pragmatic choices about your life. To decide that you don't want to have a baby for whatever reason. The reason is irrelevant to the legality but not to the general practice. Many woman have an abortion because they do not desire to have the financial or ethical responsibility to a child. And that's absolutely alright.

But what about the man who also doesn't want the financial or ethical responsibility? He should never have the power to control a woman's body and that means he should never had the power to prevent or force an abortion. But his wants and needs are of similar consequence as the woman's.

And I can't help but consider his concerns legitimate, regardless of how life actually favors men ALL the time.

Sometimes theory and practice quarrel and it's up to intelligent, well reasoned people to figure out how to resolve the disparity. I don't feel as though you're making well reasoned statements right now. And you know I am not just another MR troll.

[seabeyond]

46. while they fetus is in the womans body, it is ALL about the woman. and that still does not exclude

the mans role in her being in that condition needing medical care.

that is what makes it so simple at that point.

[Gravitycollapse]

49. Yeah but you and I both know very few things in life are simple...

Especially not underneath a critical lens.

If a man protests from the onset that he does not want a child, that he does not want the financial or ethical responsibility, it has to be at the very least considered when the issue of supporting the future child is brought up for consideration. It has to be resolved. And saying something like "well you should have worn a condom" is disturbingly similar to the arguments waged against women who want abortions.

This entire subject is complex and tedious. It's not something that can be dismissed with a single exclamation.

[freshwest]

26. Thank Skinner for Ignore. I missed the Misogyny Show on DU today. I know you can't post it in GD.

Please post it in ATA so we can all go and serve a can of whup ass on it...

Just sayin'

[BluegrassStateBlues]

31. Someone began a reply to me on here the other day: "If women want equal rights"

IF...

Like equal rights should be an IF THEN statement. Fuck that noise.

[seabeyond]

35. wow,. nt

[SMC22307]

32. FFS, consider the source of that thread.

Yes, it's a Democratic board, with certain members looking to shit-stir.

[seabeyond]

37. started with cd thread and dsc subthread to walk into the other. nt

[stevenleser]

39. We've already seen the high profile exit of someone using right wing talking points to attack the

Affordable Care Act.

To those continuing to do this, who use right wing or misogynistic talking points to attack ACA/Obamacare, to quote Aasif Mandvi:

"You know we can hear you, right?"

[cynatnite]

40. +++1000 n/t

[tammywammy]

41. Take the author of the thread into consideration.

There's more than likely this going on:

[seabeyond]

43. ya. but really it started on creekdogs thread. though that person professes women not allowed choice

AND women responsible solely for cost. so that was even more harsh in ways. but, ya....

[peace13]

75. Sad comment.

It would be best to delete it.

[seabeyond]

77. not really. the poster regularly starts OPs

about just that, at all times of the day and night, with no hesitation. so it is not like that very poster doesnt say exactly the same thing about self.

[UtahLib]

45. There are times

...when one simply cannot reason with those who seem to be interminably irrational.

[NuclearDem]

47. I call misandry on this!

[seabeyond]

48. just for you. cause it looks so good in the other thread, we need it here.

[Vashta Nerada]

50. I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

So here's a rabbit with toilet paper on its head:

[Niceguy1]

52. I thought it was about having to pay for coverage

That you could never use at all, or ever need. The thread seems to be a bit side tracked.

Thsnjs for the rabbit , it made me laugh

[steve2470]

91. thanks for the laugh lol nt

[Dr. Strange]

111. Here, I speak seabeyond.

once again, we have the damn mentality that the man is all that and fuck the woman. wtf is this.

Once again, we have this abhorrent mentality that views men as all important and totally disregards women. Why does this view exist?

women choice to get preg, she could abort. NO paying women maternity. no, wrong, bad. men are being picked on.

I hear this argument as saying, "Women choose pregnancy, as evidenced by the fact that a woman could choose to abort. Thus, we must not pay for women's health care, as least not as it pertains to maternity. This would be inappropriate and unfair to men."

who the fuck got the woman preg? so we really are going to take our god damn misogyny a step further and give a huge ass thumbs up for men at the time of conception yet they are allowed the privilege of having no more fuckin responsibility for it after that?

But who precisely impregnated the woman? Does our hatred of women lead us to applaud the male when he impregnates the woman, and then compound this by telling the man that his responsibility, should he so choose, ends upon this impregnation?

and then we are promoting this health care as all about taking care of women and men are being denied medical care????

And after all this, we exalt the Affordable Care Act as being devoted solely to women, as if men's health care is not covered?

am i on another planet here. it sounds as if we are sittin in the middle of amarillo texas, and i am listening to all the fox news watching, knuckle dragging, fundamentalist repugs.

I feel as if I am on another plane of existence; as if I am listening to conservative Republicans espousing their distasteful views in my own home.

really, a democratic board?

This surprises me, as this is a Democratic discussion board.

[sl8]

116. Barbara? Is that you?

Nice job of translation.

BZ.

[seabeyond]

117. lmFao... that was fun. lol. only one little misinterpretation but close enough

that is cute dr.... thanks for the giggle.

[Dr. Strange]

121. Crap.

Which one did I miss?

[seabeyond]

132. it was only a partial and in re reading, i can see how you were accurate in your even handedness.

so i withdraw my position of one minor one.

[Vashta Nerada]

120. Now, can you do that to all of her posts?

That would be great.

[NealK]

133. Wow, you're good.

Have you considered a career as a translator for the U.N? Because if you can translate this, learning Cantonese or Farsi would be a walk in the park.

[seabeyond]

135. ya, and then there are always the assholes. kinda like what dr responded too. too many perfectly

understood where i was coming from to pretend it is not obvious. you may Not know the OPs i am referring to, but that is not my problem. those who read the OPS were well aware of exactly what i was saying. but there are those that gotta creep out of the wood work and play a fuckin game. whatever. dr was cute. you? not so much.

need dr to transcribe that for you?

[NealK]

138. "need dr to transfer that for you?"

What should be transferred and where should the Dr. transfer it to?

[seabeyond]

140. see, as i say, an ass. transcribed.

[NealK]

144. Hum.

If English is not your first language and/or you suffer from some king of disability then I apologize for what I said. And for what it's worth I agree with your OP.

[seabeyond]

145. i was angry, disgusted last night. i read thru a thread with men stating how unfair maternity was.

Last edited Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:06 AM - Edit history (1)

then the garbage that men are not covered. i go into another thread, on a progressive board, about preg is a choice, should not be covered and a woman can abort. as abortion clinics across the nation are being closed. and abortion laws under attack. there is everything wrong in what i read last night. on du. a progressive democratic board.

you understood what i wrote. because you agree.

but some want to pretend otherwise.

what dr did was cute. but it was also unnecessary because so many people knew perfectly well what i was saying.

my sentences were short. as i said, i was angry. but to dismiss a huge problem in our society, in our culture where we actually make men out to be the ones not covered (victims), in a world where their needs are constantly met, while suggesting women are taking advantage, is beyond disgusting.

you want to play games with my sentence structure, you fall along the others that use it as an excuse to dismiss very real issues.

[redqueen]

137. Hahahaha...

I never had much trouble understanding her myself

[retread]

146. Funny, I had NO problem understanding. I do recognize being purposely obtuse is

a tactic. You have made that "strategy" a little more difficult to pull off.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. But.. But... Why would anyone seek to cause division and strife on a topic like the ACA?

Hmmm. Hang on, let me put my thinking cap on.

[Llewlladdwr]

72. Was the totally out of left field attack on Texas really necessary?

Could you not have made your point without it?

[tammywammy]

74. She lives in Amarillo, Texas or somewhere in the panhandle. n/t

[seabeyond]

76. well, good point, but seeing how i am sittin in amarillo texas, and this reminded me just like the

fuckin' conversations that i have sittin here in fuckin amarillo texas, i used that as a descriptive from personal experience.

if i was sitting in eugene oregon and had these very conversations with people, i would have used that descriptive.

[The Straight Story]

78. Interesting way to word things

Someone says something about men on an issue and you say people are claiming men are being "picked on". Wonder what you would say if someone said the same about a women discussing an issue?

"so we really are going to take our god damn misogyny a step further and give a huge ass thumbs up for men at the time of conception yet they are allowed the privilege of having no more fuckin responsibility for it after that? "

It is ok for the man to have responsibility but the choices made are only to be made by the woman in the case of pregnancy? If the woman choose to have sex and chooses to have the fetus/thing/baby that is her choice and responsibility. Should a man have to use his body for 18 years to work for something he had no say in? Basically what is being said is that one party is responsible and has no choice past a certain point (sex) and the other party has choices.

We don't want men having a say over what a woman does with her body. I am all for that, as anyone who has read my posts over the year I am very pro choice across the board (ie, I don't think it should only be applied to one thing as I believe firmly in the concept overall).

I get it, men shouldn't bail on a life they helped create (well, it is not a life until it is born, so technically all they helped to do was create a simple medical condition which the other person can choose to have fixed), it takes two to create a pregnancy (generally speaking), one has to deal with the medical condition created and wants to be able to have a choice to not let it affect their life (ie, maybe they don't want kids and the responsibility currently). The other person is not given a choice to not let it impact their life and they must accept the responsibility someone else chooses for them.

Following such a thread leads one to ponder what we mean by choice and why we stand for it for one person and not the other. You can't force someone to not have the baby, but in a more fair scenario (right or wrong in it's application) the person not given the choice to terminate the medical condition would be given a choice to legally not have to pay for the choice someone else made.

That result would not end well of course for kids (and it would only be a choice they could legally make in the first few months) - however it is not about hating women or kids to discuss where the logic/ideals lead (ie, the application of the theories).

"we have the damn mentality that the man is all that and fuck the woman"

The term 'we' here seems a bit broad. I would guess most people understand that insurance is broad in scope and you pay for many things you will never ever use yourself. It is not an attack on women to discuss this in broad terms, one could equally ask why they have to pay more per month for a vasectomy when they could never have one (or have already had one). It is a legit question which can be addressed in ways that do not suspect that the person asking it is being in any way sexist.

There are legit questions that come to mind in such issues and flagging them as sexist because they are ask is not addressing the questions themselves but is applying a label to someone - which does nothing for the dialogue.

Answers are simple and abundant - we pay property taxes for schools, even if we never have kids that will use them. We pay together for a great many things we may never use because it helps us all in some form or other. Me paying for pregnancies with my insurance will ensure those people having them will receive better care and keep costs down for all in the future (not to mention the obvious humanitarian reasons).

Not every question is a nail someone is using to attack women with. They can be honest and logical questions relating to real world issues that people are trying to better grasp.

[seabeyond]

79. you are anti choice, right? am i remembering correctly? nt

[tammywammy]

80. He's very much pro-choice and says so in his post

We don't want men having a say over what a woman does with her body. I am all for that, as anyone who has read my posts over the year I am very pro choice across the board (ie, I don't think it should only be applied to one thing as I believe firmly in the concept overall).

[seabeyond]

81. obviously i did not read it. i thought i remembered him being anti choice. i do not even bother

with discussions with anti choicers. thanks. i will remember that about the poster. he is being consistent on choice, be it smoking or whatever. i guess. remember smoking anyway

[CreekDog]

123. be careful when an MRA claims to be pro-choice

a good number of them, including many here, are pro choice in only one sense...if they get a woman pregnant and she chooses not to have an abortion he wants her to have, they don't want to pay child support.

will many of them insist on having a legal say in preventing her from getting an abortion? you betcha.

also, keep in mind something TSS does around here. if he says he's pro-choice, it will invariably be ancillary to the point he's making and the point is always, ...I think abortion should be legal and likewise guns because it's unfair to restrict guns if you don't restrict abortion.

[moriah]

131. I know several men who are very against abortion for that reason.

They decided to screw the wrong woman, and that woman got pregnant, and didn't agree with them about what should be done. Or they had a miscarriage or another pregnancy loss that was traumatic.

The one in particular I talk to has at least been very un-hypocritical in that he supports the kids he has and his ex-wife in a lifestyle well enough to let her stay home to raise them while they were not in school (they split when the kids were small) -- he really could pay for a nanny for what he pays in child support if he wanted to, but he thinks the kids are better off with their mom right now. Every other issue he can debate rationally, but that one he says right off the bat he's not rational about (in his case it was a miscarriage).

It does suck for men that they currently don't have access to as reliable and reversible of birth control methods as women do. But this is a conversation that ideally needs to be happening *before* people hop in the sack.

[moriah]

129. The best advice is for men to be careful where they deposit their seed.

Is the person they're screwing the person they *really* want raising their kid?

Vice versa advice also applies....

[redgreenandblue]

87. Please provide a link to the original thread.

I would like to know what prompted this.

Thanks.

[steve2470]

93. this one I think:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3939817

[redgreenandblue]

95. Ah, ok.

I hate OPs that need deciphering. Thanks for the help

[steve2470]

96. you're very welcome ! :) nt

[Decaffeinated]

90. Breathe deep...

You might faint...

[seabeyond]

100. faint? really??.....

[99Forever]

97. Who is "we?"

Broadbrush much?

Oh, wait a sec, this one does little else.

never mind.

[Arugula Latte]

105. Yep. There are some misogynistic assholes posting this crap on DU.

Their thinking about insurance is very focused in on one thing -- pregnancy, while ignoring all other conditions and health issues.

Sickening.

[dogknob]

124. Many progressives are actually people who wish they were.

Fake it 'til you make it, I guess. Welcome to San Francisco.

[Niceguy1]

130. how does picking what coverage an individual wants

Turn into an anti women act?

It is a valid point to question as our nation shifts from a choice based health insurance system to a mandated system.

And isn't there a better word than mandate? That word in itself seems sexist to me lol.

[seabeyond]

134. no. it is not a valid point. and that is the issue. that simple. not a valid point. it takes a

MAN for a preg to happen. why are you even rationally trying to excuse it only on the woman simply because she carries all the burden all the risk in a mutual experience.

[Niceguy1]

136. before on the individual

Market you could get plans that met your needs...say a single man who is only buying a policy for himself doesn't need to have maternity coverage. Since the policy is for himself only if he got someone pregant it wouldnt cover it anyways because it is for him, not her. Just like her plan wouldn't cover his expenses.

How is that sexist????? Honestly I don't see the sexism in buying only What you need.

[seabeyond]

139. because all women absorbed the cost that caused us to pay a higher cost, simply for being a woman.

i had a baby without maternity coverage. i got discounts for paying cash. we then got coverage for maternity for the second child. incredibly the managed to get more cash from us with insurance then paying cash. let all absorb and be consistent.

[Niceguy1]

141. so it is all about the subsidy.

I don't think it is a big issue as most people would get family plans.

People should be straight forward about it.

[duffyduff]

142. Society as a whole benefits when women have children. If they didn't,

there wouldn't be a society left. It is in society's interest that women have coverage when they are pregnant.

Posts that would even question maternity coverage are batshit crazy.

[seabeyond]

143. i think. i did not even know this was an issue until hearing thread after thread talking the

unfairness. had not even been a thought in my head. and then last night? talking about men are left to die and women coddled bullshit. was beyond arguable. and a progressive board at that.

[coyotespaw]

147. Yeah, but maybe

just maybe, it's just a few random crappypants talking that smack and most of us are decent peoples on here. Seriously, take a short break from DU, walk to the nearest coffeehouse; and while getting the tallest cup of coffee flavored coffee they have, count the asshats that you run into. While sipping that great cup of coffee, count how many more shitsuckers you run into. By the time you get back here, you'll realize that the sleestak to normal person ratio is much better here than out in the real world. Plus, you'll have coffee.

[seabeyond]

148. i like your post. it is fun. nt