C'mon people. Use your noggin. Obama knew, and approved of it.

[MannyGoldstein]

What's the difference between these two statements:

1. General Alexander "did not discuss with President Obama in 2010 an alleged foreign intelligence operation involving German Chancellor Merkel, nor has he ever discussed alleged operations involving Chancellor Merkel. News reports claiming otherwise are not true".

2. "The NSA did not share with President Obama the existence of any foreign intelligence operations directly involving German Chancellor Merkel."

Which was the actual statement? Which was not? Why do you think that is?

Think!

When the Outrageous! Outrageous! IRS scandal broke because someone at the IRS stupidly thought the phrase "Tea Party" in an organization name might possibly mean it was a political organization, Obama immediately fired the IRS head who had zero to do with the awful, terrible, horrible mistake. Zero. Wasn't in charge when it happened, wasn't under his control, yet he was on the street.

By contrast, Starship Commander Keith Alexander is still in place after letting a 29-year-old new-hire contractor walk off with the jewels of US intelligence, and now after allegedly failing to tell the President that we're tapping the phone lines of allies.

Why?

Think.

[liberal_at_heart]

1. good point Manny. I find it very curious that no one has lost their job over the NSA mess.

Not only it is undermining our democracy and our trust in our democracy, it is hurting our relationships with our allies. This is bad no matter how you slice it.

[Ichingcarpenter]

10. ONLY Snowden was fired and lost his job

But not Starship commander Alexander, nor the ones they caught uses it to spy on X girl friends, wives and families.

[liberal_at_heart]

17. very true.

[polichick]

64. Obama should've hired him to help clean things up asap!

[Go Vols]

164. Snowden quit and went to Hong Kong

3 weeks before being fired.

[spanone]

2. bwahahahahaaa..... i'll use your noggin, and a couple of drumsticks

comedy central

[AtomicKitten]

140. lol

[spanone]

143. BA DUM TSSSHHH

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Scurrilous]

159. LOL

[bemildred]

3. Afraid to lie, afraid to tell the truth. It's a tough spot. nt

[randome]

4. Who really gives a shit?

Why is it so important to know on what side of the outrage corridor one should walk? Do you really think we simply MUST know about every internal kerfuffle that goes on in an administration?

Foreign policy is best left to the diplomats to figure out. Internal politics is best left to the politicians. Suppose we knew the answer to your questions. What is to be gained by that answer? We might have knowledge but would it be anything actionable?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[winter is coming]

5. If the President didn't know about it, it's a hell of a lot scarier.

Who's controlling the NSA? Who can/will rein them in?

[randome]

8. So the actionable result is the knowledge of how scared we should be?

Damn. I'd rather work on something more productive.

It's the NSA's job to monitor foreign communications. Why should I be scared if they are listening in to some head of state in another country? Concerned? Meh. But scared? Why?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[winter is coming]

20. I'm missing how dismissing this issue as an "internal kerfuffle" is productive.

And I'm amazed that you seem indifferent as to whom the NSA is taking marching orders from.

[randome]

28. Tell me why I should care.

Should I be 'concerned' or 'scared' that the NSA is not spying the way I want them to spy?

I'm not. Absent something egregious, I'm content with letting the spies do the spying. And with letting Obama clean house or whatever he wants to do regarding that. It doesn't even register on my radar. With everything else the President is trying to get accomplished, why do we focus on this?

Lindsey Graham has threatened to block every appointment until...Benghazi!!! A government shutdown by any other name smells just as putrid. This NSA stuff is a sideshow unless someone can point to actual harm being done by it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[winter is coming]

115. Clearly, it does register on your radar, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to minimalize it.

It apparently registers on your radar as a political threat to Obama and on my radar as a threat to a country which currently happens to be led by Obama, which perhaps is why only one of us is willing to entertain the notion that this is a problem we should care about.

[randome]

118. It doesn't take much effort to type out a post or two. I'm a very fast typist.

Obama has no re-election to work for so the political threat is miniscule. I don't see how this country is threatened by what the NSA does in other countries. Especially when their job is to monitor foreign communications and that is what they are doing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Scuba]

150. +8,749

[Mojorabbit]

167. + a gazillion. nt

[sabrina 1]

132. So you were on the side of Bush/Cheney when they were caught

using the telecoms to spy on the American people back when Democrats were demanding accountability for them breaking the law, AGAIN. And you supported Congress getting them off the hook by changing the law to make legal what was ILLEGAL at the time?

I don't remember anyone on the left dismissing those revelations which the NYT held back when asked to do so by the Bush WH.

Did you state your opinion at that time on DU?

[randome]

133. Of course not.

But what does any of that have to do with the NSA spying on foreign communcations? That's their job. It's because Obama pulled them away from domestic spying that they are doing their intended job.

The domestic spying is over with. Unless you count copies of metadata as 'spying', a point of view I understand but do not agree with.

Those who think this is anything but a soap opera, I still ask why should this be on our list of things to control? It's a sideshow, IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[DisgustipatedinCA]

136. No need for you to care. That's for the civic-minded among us.

[morningfog]

152. You should not care. Don't worry your mind.

We should all just trust the president.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

60. Not exactly "dismissive". He or she actively wants all of us to be dismissive. I'm not buying it.

[Skittles]

158. what you're missing is understanding the latest meme

you know, the one that makes everything all roses

[winter is coming]

160. Roses, eh? That would explain the odor of fertilizer. n/t

[sabrina 1]

32. No the final resolution should be what the American people voted for

back in 2008, FIRE ALL BUSH PERSONNEL. Should anyone be surprised that when Republican extremists are appoint to positions of power, or LEFT in positions of power by a WINNING Dem Administration, they would NOT continue their egregious policies AND undermine a Democratic President at the same time?

Kick all these Republicans out of office, Dems didn't elect Dems to get Republicans back in power.

This should be a lesson to those who were constantly struggling to defend these Republicans left in or appointed to these powerful positions.

[randome]

37. Not everything that occurs in politics needs to affect me personally for me to be outraged.

But a spying agency that may not be spying in the way I approve means next to nothing to me.

I agree, more Bush-era appointees should have been ousted. But that was Obama's decision and it can't be undone. So I'm still not concerned about it unless it actually affects people other than diplomats and politicians.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Plucketeer]

51. OK

I'm bad about putting up sarcasm without the requisite smiley. Shy of that, it's glasses or prescription.

Alan Grayson can't get answers or info regarding what the NSA and other agencies are doing. This cause he's not a member of the
House Intelligence Committee. And so, if our "representatives" can't know what's going on...... well, I'm just not satisfied with sticking my head in the sand.

[randome]

53. I'm not satisfied, either. Neither am I outraged.

I just think that with everything that's going on with the GOP right now, why should we want to micro-manage a spying organization? Especially since it appears they are doing the intended job.

It's like insisting on learning how to drive an 18-wheeler when all you need to do is buy groceries.

If the Senate demands answers, they will get them. But they aren't. My guess is more 'plausible deniability' lurks in enough political minds that the tipping point is still not being reached.

Now on to Immigration, Climate Change and Gun Control. At least from my point of view, these are much more important.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Plucketeer]

57. How does that line go.....

Something like.... "They came for the old and infirm, but that wasn't me, so why would I speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I'm not Jewish, so it didn't concern me....." And I'm just winging it there - it's NOT even a good imitation of the quote I'm pointing at, but you get the message. Yeah - it doesn't concern me directly, so why would I get my shorts in a wad?

[randome]

83. Obviously there are some things we DO need to micro-manage.

I just don't see international spying as one of them. Who has been harmed by any of this?
What do we expect to gain from knowing who told what to whom? It's politics and diplomats. Let them take care of the stupid stuff while we press for issues that we know impact everyday people.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Plucketeer]

101. Well, I'm just wary that

determined ignorance can afford me much of a degree of bliss. But whatever.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

62. So what?

Why should that affect any of the rest of us?

Please tell us.

[randome]

90. That's my point. Why should we care HOW spy agencies spy?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[AnotherMcIntosh]

92. If you don't care, so what? Explain to us why others should not care.

[randome]

104. Already did.

This is an attempt to micro-manage an international spying agency.

Meanwhile, we have Immigration, Climate Change and Gun Control as Obama's stated objectives.

The NSA does its intended job. It monitors foreign communications. Now explain to me how the NSA rates more concern over the above priorities.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[AnotherMcIntosh]

113. That explains nothing. It only lists your priorities. How selfish. This is not about you.

[randome]

116. If NSA internal antics rise above what I listed, I think you have a warped sense of priorities.

We can be more productive than following the soap opera antics of the NSA. They are a foreign spying agency and they spy.

IMO, compared to everything else that's going on, we can be doing something more useful.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[AnotherMcIntosh]

119. This is not about you nor the things that you don't care about.

[randome]

121. Apparently your posts are about the things you DO care about.

In fact, pretty much every post on this thread can be characterized that way. I can offer my opinion same as anyone else that Climate Change, Immigration and Gun Control are way higher on the list of things we should be worried about.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[rhett o rick]

137. Seems to me that you are "scared" of the truth. And werent you the one saying that the

NSA wasnt spying? Seems you were desperately trying to keep the truth hidden. And now you just want to ignore it.

[bemildred]

6. Well, clearly, Obama and Alexander do, to name two. nt

[B Calm]

7. +1 Couldn't agree more!

I'm sick of seeing all these right wing talking points being posted by DU members!

[sabrina 1]

34. I'm sick of seeing Right Wingers like Alexander and Clapper hold positions

of power in a Democratic Administration. Who would have thought that a bunch of old Bush loyalists would cause trouble for a Democratic President?

Seems to me you should be more concerned about how these Republicans are undermining this President right now.

Fire them and appoint Democrats to these positions. Are there no Dems who are qualified to run our security agencies? Keeping old Bush people in power, and appointing more of them has fed into the Right Wing meme that 'Dems cannot protect this country'.

I'm sick of ALL of this, and sick of Dems constantly giving Republicans the opportunity to undermine them like this.

[MyNameGoesHere]

75. You're correct

we need to give up our role in self governance. We have people that can do that and we are not needed.

[randome]

97. There is a point where you let the machinery run itself.

Otherwise, we would never get anything done. The question is do we really want to micro-manage the NSA absent evidence of egregious harm? I mean it's a spy agency and they spy. Carl Bernstein said it looked as if they have good internal controls and I agree with that.

So I don't see micro-managing the NSA as high on the list of things to get done.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[MyNameGoesHere]

103. Sure they know what's best

we can now give up any right to manage ourselves or our country. I mean we have no vested interest in how the world views us anyway, and well if they don't like us too bad.
More spies and horses for my men!

[dorkulon]

86. I wish I could see your reaction in an alternate reality in which Romney won.

That is all.

[randome]

100. I would think the NSA would continue to spy on foreign heads of state.

It was Obama who stopped the excesses of Bush, Jr. in regards to the NSA.

Of course there is more danger when a Republican is in office. That's why we have laws, rules and regulations to rein in behavior. In the end, that's all we ever have.

What is it we expect to come of this? Have the NSA stop spying entirely? That's a pipe dream so long as crime has an international reach.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[dorkulon]

134. Can you tell me what excesses you speak of?

I don't see how Obama's stopped anything in that regard.

[randome]

148. Can't find the link but Bush had the NSA spying domestically.

The changes to the Patriot Act put a lot more controls on what the NSA is allowed to do.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[AnotherMcIntosh]

122. If you didn't care, you wouldn't spend so much time telling us that you don't care. Obviously.

[randome]

123. I like debates on difficult issues. So sue me.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[rhett o rick]

135. Ah yes, the "just keep your head in the sand argument."

"Who really gives a shit?" I give a shit that our NSA is over the top out of control. And you also give a shit because you want to hide it all under the rug. Do you have any concept of what freedom and liberty mean? Do you care at all about our Constitution?

[randome]

141. Our Constitution does not cover Germany nor does it cover anyone outside our borders.

The NSA's job is to monitor foreign communications. They are doing that job. Have they gone too far? Perhaps.

Their umbrella of responsibilties covers human trafficking, terrorism, money laundering, drug cartels and child pornography.

Now why do we suddenly think that the NSA's responsibilities need to be micro-managed when we have one hell of a lot more important things to be concerned with.

If they have pissed off Germany or whoever, that's for the diplomats and politicians to wrestle with. What if had an answer to Manny's questions? What would we do with that knowledge? There is nothing to be gained by trying to micro-manage an organization that seems to be doing its job.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[rhett o rick]

146. LOL. Micro manage. Is that what you call oversight? I bet you think that banks should

regulate themselves too. Why micromanage them?

"Now why do we suddenly think that the NSA's responsibilities need to be micro-managed when we have one hell of a lot more important things to be concerned with. "
I am concerned that the NSA has way more control than anyone wants to admit. And there is nothing more important than our freedoms and liberties. If we lose those we lose it all.

Why are you defending the NSA? I understand the right-wing defending them, but why you? General Clapper and General Alexander are right-wing authoritarians that apparently more powerful than the president.

[randome]

149. They monitor foreign communications. Why is this something to get upset about?

Carl Bernstein said it appeared to him the NSA has strong safeguards in place to prevent abuse and I agree with that.

I'm not defending the NSA so much as saying why does anyone care about what diplomats and politicians wrangle about when there aren't even any victims in this 'scandal'?

Are we really that concerned with Germany's feelings being hurt? When we have a true out-of-control entity called the GOP that is trying to shut down the government again, as in Lindsey Graham's idiotic Benghazi song.

Immigration, Climate Change and Gun Control are one hell of a lot more important than complaining that the spies are not spying in a courteous manner or whatever.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[rhett o rick]

157. Baby Bush alienated all our best allies except GB, which I guess we own.

It's nice to have strong allies, but this sure isnt helping. I do care that we have a strong country with strong allies. But to find out that our President doesnt even know this is going on is distressing. It reinforces the idea that maybe he doesnt have control of the intelligence agencies. Which would be surprising since they are all run by right-wing authoritarians. Illegal spying on Americans gives these agencies untold powers to influence politics and policy. Who ever controls politics and our government will decide re. gun control and climate change. We need freedom first before we can control other issues.

[Rex]

153. Now now, don't get a sadz over something that means nothing to you.

Since you don't give a shit, why even bother to post in this thread? Just rubbing you raw that people will not shut up about the NSA?

[ProSense]

9. The media need people to spread

there BS. Every friggin issue is framed as "what did Obama know, and when did he know it"?

Even the BS health insurance story is being framed Watergate style.

As I said here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023937555), it's interesting that this program started in 2002 under Bush, and ended early in the Obama Presidency when it was discovered, but somehow it's just becoming an issue. Wonder why?

Now, that the initial reporting wasn't enough to spark another BS "gate," the new spin is Obama "approved" a program started under Bush...the same program Obama ended.

The media suck!

[tablisminster]

33. You are confusing two different things

1) when a particular intercept program stopped
2) when a particular person's communications were intercepted

Just because the entry in a database read "chancellor" does not mean intercepts stopped when Merkel was a chancellor.

[ProSense]

36. No, I'm not. I read the reports. n/t

[AnotherMcIntosh]

68. You "read the reports"? How did you do that? Aren't they classified?

[ProSense]

72. LOL! News reports.

[gopiscrap]

127. welcome to DU

[randome]

108. Bush was using the NSA for domestic spying. Obama stopped it.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[jsr]

11. Manny, nobody in the White House knew where all the stuff in the briefing books came from.

Probably from Santa or on Santa's orders.

[JoePhilly]

12. Why? ... cause Obama hates America, we all know that.

[sibelian]

95. ...and also

off to ignore with YOU, Joephilly, for continuous, long-standing point-blank refusal to address the subject at hand.

[MineralMan]

13. Governments have always used whatever capabilities they

have to spy on each other. Capabilities have improved a great deal in recent decades. What's surprising to me is that anyone is surprised that any government is trying to listen in on the leaders of other countries.

The NSA is snooping on other governments and their leaders? Of course they are. That's the business they're in. Is it right? That's a question I can't answer. But it's been going on throughout history, using all available capabilities.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

70. Yes, it's old news. Just move along.

[MineralMan]

74. See, you added words to my post.

I didn't say that, nor would I. But, it's important to recognize the reality of international espionage. It is an ongoing thing that is going to continue to go on. Sometimes, it's essential. Often, it's not. But, it continues because it is sometimes essential.

The U.S. is far from the only country engaged in it. In fact, every country does it, to the extent they're capable.

But, I didn't say move along. You said that and attempted to put those words on me, somehow. That's not a good trait. I say what I mean, and I didn't say that in any way.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

77. No. I did not add words to your post. I added words to my post.

You should know the difference. Most people know the difference.

[Egalitarian Thug]

124. and clarified the obvious intent of that other reply. n/t

[AnotherMcIntosh]

111. Wrong again. The words represent what I said.

[Jesus Malverde]

99. That we spy on foreigners is old news. That we spy on AMERICANS is NEWS...nt

[AnotherMcIntosh]

112. "We"? It is not old news that the NSA spies upon all telephone conversations.

What's with this "we" business? Are you an NSA employee? Or a wannabe-NSA employee?

[Jesus Malverde]

144. "We" as in American..

I read the book the puzzle palace back in 1982's and much of these revelations are not new.

What is NEW, is that laws that were put in place to protect US citizens were thrown out by Bush and left as is by President Obama.

I expect our government to gather as much intelligence overseas as possible, we spend billions to that effect, and it's generally a better investment than reacting to a crisis.

Why would an American care about Angela Merkel privacy, she's not an american. It's silly that Feinstein would be outraged at this surveillance but not the surveillance of Americans.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

147. Spy-upon-everyone as UNAMERICAN. Saying "we" and identifying with the spy-masters doesn't excuse it.

[GeorgeGist]

125. -1

[Ichingcarpenter]

14. A Few thoughts

So if

The NSA didn't reveal it spied on the leaders of our allies to the president and chose to hide this program to Obama..... because they didn't get anything? This implies that they and they alone consider what is or what is not important... not the president nor the Congress

If the president didn't know until this summer it means it was A SECRET CONSPIRACY TO HIDE IT FOR MANY YEARS.. Read that again.. it was a hidden conspiracy by the NSA.
IF He was briefed in 2009 and did nothing .... I doubt that happened.

Feinstein now is shocked by the NSA spying on leaders after all her briefings over the years even before Obama came to power and she never knew... So much for congressional oversight, or was she lying too or had NSA problems which caused her not to reveal it. Either way it is not a good sign and a CONSPIRACY.

Now we must ask....... What else does the NSA and CIA hide? They both use each other when they can.


Can any 'real' overview of the NSA work with the parties involved?

I'm sure the NSA will open up ... cough cough and reveal what else it does.

[LuvNewcastle]

21. Feinstein is covering her ass.

I don't for a minute believe she is ignorant about the things they do. She's been one of their biggest cheerleaders all along.

[Ichingcarpenter]

23. Like I said .. that's a CONSPIRACY

either way.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

71. Same here.

[FredStembottom]

128. Thank you, Icarpenter

So much for million-reply exhortations to be childlike and trusting.

When I first came to DU in 2004, i never in my wildest imaginings thought I would encounter Democrats urging other Democrats to be willfully ignorant.

That attitude is anathema to the founding fathers' challenge of "a democracy, if you can keep it".

[Avalux]

15. Use your noggin? Do you think you're talking to children?

Consider that there are people in place at the NSA (BUSHCO), who were installed long before Obama took office, and yes - have kept him from knowing their maneuvers.

Why isn't that possible?

[winter is coming]

27. Of course it's possible. And it's a possibility that I find far more worrying. n/t

[grantcart]

76. When considering the patronizing tone of the OP you may wish to recall

that the author was one of 3-4 that was not taken in by dfk.

Think children think.

[LuvNewcastle]

16. I'm not sure what I think about it.

I think it's possible Obama didn't know the specifics, but he's a smart man. If he's receiving updates about inside information from Merkel, then I'm sure he figured it out. The NSA probably picks and chooses which things to tell the Pres. in order to give him plausible deniability just in case the information becomes known. So I think it's very possible that Obama knew, but he didn't know.

I also think it's quite likely that Alexander has way too much power. You could probably compare him to J. Edgar Hoover. He's been in control of the NSA for so long now that it might be impossible to dislodge him, even if they took away his official title. Spooks never really retire, so I've been told. God knows what it happening in our internal affairs. I think our government needs to be aired out in the worst way.

[Skidmore]

18. I agree with your assessment.

I believe there is a lot that goes on in the NSA that is considered routine business and no one questions as more. I also believe that even career people are not devoid of political sympathies and are not above acting on them as well.

[Hutzpa]

25. I just hope your post don't get

hidden for using the word spooks as it is forbidden on DU, but your point is valid.

Agreed Gen. Alexander has become a monster that they cannot contain just as J. Edgar Hoover.

[LuvNewcastle]

35. I'd never heard that word was banned. I've seen others use it.

Surely it depends on the context.

[Hutzpa]

39. I had a post hidden for using that exact same word

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=330477

Unless DU has become bias toward my postings which I doubt, but some here took offence to
my usage of the word and voted to hide my post.

[Tom728]

48. Context

You'd think so....but some people's sense of victimhood overrides common sense. People like that just enjoy being perpetually "offended".

[noiretextatique]

129. and some people enjoy being offensive

and assholes who purposely offend people. those people tend to blame their victims for their ugly behavior. the tea party is a prime example. their shock troops show up at the white house with a confederate flag and many stupid, racist signs, then they claim obama is the REAL racist. ever...it's complete bs.

[JVS]

29. It's never impossible to dislodge someone from a position.

[Ichingcarpenter]

46. Compartmentalization

Compartmentalization and how its utilized to keep sensitive information secret.


compartmentalization of information means to limit access to information to persons who directly need to know certain such information in order to perform certain tasks.



The basis for compartmentalization is that if fewer people know the details of a mission or task, the risk or likelihood that such information could be compromised or fall into the hands of the opposition is decreased. Hence, varying levels of clearance within organizations exist. Yet, even if someone has the highest clearance, certain "eyes only" information may still be restricted to certain operators, even of lower rank. In intelligence administration, officials believe it is useful to keep close watch on "sources and methods" information to prevent disclosure of people and their activities, whose lives they may believe to be at risk if such information were publicly disclosed or fall into the hands of the opposition.


In May of 2008, former Military Intelligence Sergeant Adrienne Kinne, who had served for ten years, from 1994 to 2004, and was active in the Iraq war, explained how compartmentalization worked to facilitate the wiretapping she participated in. She stated:


"When this was going on, I had absolutely no idea what was going on in the rest of the military intelligence, the rest of our government. Everything is so compartmentalized that you don’t really know necessarily what the person next to you is doing, let alone in a different room in a different building in a different location. And so, it really wasn’t until the New York Times piece came out about the NSA’s domestic wiretapping that I really began to think about what we were doing and my mission and that we were collecting on Americans. And we were doing so for the flimsiest of reasons.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/13/fmr_military_intelligence_officer_reveals_us

Now this is how the elite in power
hide shit.

[haikugal]

58. Plausible deniability

is the result....as we all know.

plausible deniability

A condition in which a subject can safely and believeably deny knowledge of any particular truth that may exist because the subject is deliberately made unaware of said truth so as to benefit or shield the subject from any responsibility associated through the knowledge of such truth.

The CIA black ops division undertakes dangerous and usually what would be considered illegal missions that are not officially sanctioned by the US administration so that the administration, which usually benefits from such missions, can safely dissavow any knowledge of them in the event of their publically uncovered success or failure. The administration is in the position of plausible deniability towards the CIA's actions.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plausible%20deniability

[KoKo]

89. So, then did Snowden's information break the compartmentalization?

Was he able to retrieve enough from various different "systems" that we are now able to get a glimpse of how vast the gathering of info was?

IOWD's he was able to reveal what might have been suspected but not able to be proven because of "compartmentalization." There must have been stages of the information gathering ...but, each would go into a higher box ...another and then another up to Alexander and CIA. Did Snowden get access to the Top Box and work his way down?

[Ichingcarpenter]

109. He was able to see the big picture

Snowden held a position at the NSA for the twelve months prior to his next job as a consultant, with top secret Sensitive Compartmented Information clearances and was only able to see the big picture once he worked with

Booz Allen.... (Carlyle Group)



WHO HAD THE BIG PICTURE. that broke down the compartmentalization in order to understand the big picture.... which is why he changed jobs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Career



Booz Allen.... (Carlyle Group) knows the big picture .

[KoKo]

165. Recommend.

[Hutzpa]

19. There are programs that are being run by certain organization

or certain MIC that are operated in darkness because of the complexity involved either to
1) protect the figure head at a time like this
or
2) figure head is completely oblivious of such programs.

Either way, this is the case of --if I go down, you go down with me-- kind of malarkey.

I still believe the president did not know about the tapping just as some in the intelligence
committee that were left out of the loop. Nevertheless, the fact is the monster they've created in the name
of fighting terrorist has come home to roost.

[iandhr]

22. Maybe not...

...its called plausible deniability.

If both Bush and now Obama said "I don't want to now what you get up to" He can deny he new what was going on and he would technically be telling the truth.

[Blanks]

24. Do I have to care?

This NSA spying thing is a hangover from the last administration. Does that in any way absolve the current president? No, but its getting a lot of attention. People are outraged.

If ever anything is going to be done about it - the outrage has to reach critical mass. If the outrage reaches a point that the president either has to 'do something about it' or 'say that it is ok'. I hope he does something about it. I also expect that he will do something about it - when right wingers start crying for him to do something about it.

The president is in a precarious position here. The economy is still too fragile to push for defense cuts, and defense is about the the only thing tea party clowns will fund unquestionably.

The president will wait until its popular to dismantle the NSA (think LGBT rights) and when it is, he will take steps toward reducing defense spending (actually congress is the entity that will reduce the spending).

If he were to take steps right now, that's all we would hear (and more importantly all of our right wing relatives would hear) is how the president is gutting our ability to fight terra - ism.

Sure, he was probably told - that doesn't change what he can, or can't do.

[BKH70041]

26. It doesn't look good either way.

If the President did know, it makes it appear as though he approved of it taking place.

If he didn't know, it makes him look incompetent, like he can't even control his own people.

[JVS]

31. Yep. It's lose-lose.

[Hutzpa]

42. No it does not make him look incompetent

jeez. Some folks just can't wait to piss on this president every chance they get.

[randome]

45. It's so important to know how MUCH to piss on the President, isn't it?

All these factors to consider: velocity, stream strength, wind speed, altitude. What's important is that Obama be pissed on because the NSA is not spying in a manner we approve.

Meanwhile, Lindsey Graham tries to shut down the government again but...Benghazi!!!! I mean...NSA!!!!!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Hutzpa]

131. Yep! forget about the government shutdown

oh no! that is not important, instead let's focus on Obama and NSA because we know he is hiding
something or knew about Merkel tapping.

[sibelian]

44. Yeah, I think that's the more accurate assessment.

And, actually, I suspect he didn't know.

[Atman]

30. I totally disagree.

A good spy will do his spying, and give his boss plausible deniability. He'll distance the boss, and has no need to fill him in on minutiae. But he'll let him know when something big happens ("Terrorists determined to strike U.S.&quot

It is nonsense to assume that the president signs off on every wire tap the NSA creates.

[Laelth]

38. Of course, the President knew.

If he didn't, I'd be ticked off. He also backed it. Whether that was wise is another question altogether.

-Laelth

[Hutzpa]

40. Do you have proof of this?

You sounded adamant that he knew, so maybe you have facts that points to him knowing.

[Laelth]

50. If I did have that proof, I wouldn't offer it up here. n/t

-Laelth

[AnotherMcIntosh]

78. There is proof. Snowden told him and the world. Now the question is when did he know.

[Schema Thing]

52. He's Obama. *you* couldn't possibly know if he was ticked off or not

especially at this stage of the game.

[Laelth]

54. He wasn't ticked off, as far as I can tell.

That's probably because he knew, as well he should.

-Laelth

[LittleBlue]

41. Of course he did

This is yet another lie in a futile attempt to save face. Such a bad lie that it's embarrassing.

[DonViejo]

43. Okay, I thought, and this is what I came up with

NSA director Keith Alexander and deputy expected to depart in early 2014

Alexander, who was rocked by Edward Snowden's revelations, has formalized plans to leave by next March or April, officials say

theguardian.com, Wednesday 16 October 2013 17.10 EDT

The director of the National Security Agency and his deputy are expected to depart in the coming months, US officials said on Wednesday, in a development that could give President Obama a chance to reshape the eavesdropping agency.

Army general Keith Alexander's eight-year tenure was rocked this year by revelations contained in documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden about the agency's widespread scooping up of telephone, email and social media data.

Alexander has formalized plans to leave by next March or April, while his civilian deputy, Chris Inglis, is due to retire by year's end, according to US officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

One leading candidate to replace Alexander is Vice Admiral Michael Rogers, currently commander of the US navy's 10th Fleet and US Fleet Cyber Command, officials told Reuters. The 10th Fleet and Fleet Cyber Command both have their headquarters at Fort Meade, Maryland. The NSA is also headquartered at Fort Meade.

full article
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/16/nsa-director-keith-alexander-depart

[KoKo]

110. So a Vice Admiral replaces the General... Anyone have problem with this?

Navy replaces Army. What's changed?

"Military, Industrial Complex" spying on Americans. (Remember Military now go to work in Industry, these days of the Revolving Door.) How did they get authority to tap/datamine everyone including World Leaders?

That's what needs to be investigated.

[grasswire]

120. Alexander was planning to retire BEFORE this hit the fan.

His leaving is not caused by recent events.

[Autumn]

47. All this crap just convinces me that since Cheney and Bush put this in place these

fuckers at the NSA have become another arm of the government, they spy on and control our politicians. The NSA IS the government. No one is going to do anything about it.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

79. They'll do nothing? Some politicians are going to rake in the cash.

At the NSA, with the ability to spy upon everyone, the NSA officials have financial inside information that can make them rich, and probably already has.

Would they not share their inside information with a favored politician or two? (Of course, they wouldn't share inside information with "our" politicians but it's inherently unlikely that they wouldn't share the information with any politicians.)

[randome]

94. The FBI has the ability to spy on anyone. Your local police officer has this ability.

Your neighbor has this ability.

Where does the 'concern' and fear and paranoia end?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Autumn]

105. Yep, but they will do nothing to stop or rein them in.

A lot of truth in follow the money.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

114. Yep.

[Marr]

49. If Bush were still in office, no one here would doubt for a second that Bush (or Pres. Cheney) knew.

This is a troubling revelation, and frankly, heads need to role. But they aren't. And it makes the usual political claims of, "we had no idea" even less convincing than usual.

[ProSense]

55. If Bush were still in office, it would still be a secret. Also,

Cheney's statements about everything indicate he knew and approved.

Dick Cheney Defends US Spying On Foreign Leaders (VIDEO)
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cheney-defends-us-spying-on-foreign-leaders-video

In fact, Bush/Cheney could admit stuff, they have in the past, and the media still treat the claims as "alleged." This is how they treated torture.

[KoKo]

117. Same as the Crook & Liar Banksters who caused our current

"Great Depression" with Austerity the Buzzword.

They were not held accountable, either. It's a seriously dangerous Pattern that's emerged. Maybe they Still ARE.. behind the scenes, due to the Spying and that is why Obama has leaned towards keeping so many of the Repugs in his Admin and refused to prosecute Wall Street Criminals...and yet goes after Whistle Blowers and Journalists more harshly than any other President in recent memory.

Agree...if Bush/Cheney were still in power. Dems would be Outraged!

[vaberella]

162. I would doubt it. But from what I understood it was started under Bush direction and ended under O.

If this was still going on...this is without the President's knowledge.

[L0oniX]

56. DC bubble and plausible deniability.

You can't know if our gov is telling the truth anymore. Only a fool would believe everything the gov says.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

59. What's next? He knew of the Bush/Cheney tortures? He knows of the forced feeding of Gitmo guests?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

61. Oh, the all-knowing, all-seeing Manny holds forth

Last edited Tue Oct 29, 2013, 12:44 PM - Edit history (1)

And his word is his bond. None of Manny's guesses and predictions have EVER fallen completely flat.

[Logical]

88. Lol, coming from you? Classic! nt

[AnotherMcIntosh]

93. x2

[SidDithers]

102. Nailed it...nt

Sid

[Cali_Democrat]

107. Manny is a gawd. n/t

[vaberella]

163. More often than not.

But he's got a loyal fan base.

[jeff47]

63. So your argument is Obama knew because he has not fired someone who already quit.

Should Obama force Alexander to un-quit so he can be fired?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

65. Betcha many in the Intelligence Community didn't tell Obama a damn thing....

Don't you know that when there's a boyscout in the office the corrupt lay low?

[polichick]

69. I'll bet some of them still report to Cheney - that's probably how he knew...

not to visit Canada.

[BainsBane]

66. I don't find the idea that he didn't know at all comforting

He should know about stuff like that, and I assume he did.

[ProSense]

80. The reports are all over the place

Obama said Merkel was no longer being spied on, which suggests he knew.

Still, the initial reports indicated that the program ended in 2010. There are reports that Merkel was still on the list.

A report denies that Obama knew. The lastest report indicates he knew and also approved it.

Any way you slice it, the program started in 2002.

The reports about whether or not Obama knew, especially after he stated that it's no longer happening, are simply attempts at scandal mongering.

Still, look at the scandal: NSA spying on foreign leaders.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023937555

Yeah, Merkel is pissed, but are people seriously pretending to be naive about foreign intelligence: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023937555#post6

This is one of those issues that hits the NSA's actual mission, but it has nothing to do with the problems of domestic spying.

[BainsBane]

82. Thanks for the links

I fully admit to not having read up on it.
I know that surveillance of allies is common place, but I can understand how leaders like Merkel would be put out over having their phone calls recorded. This has clearly been a blow to US foreign relations.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

91. Under Bush they were busted snooping at the UN.

[fleabiscuit]

67. ?

Missing Bush?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. The buck stops...somewhere else. Or, Shit Flows Downhill.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

81. Snowden's revelations makes it impossible for anyone to say that Obama doesn't know.

The two questions from such revelations are:

(1) When did he know?
(2) What is he going to do about it?

With respect to #2,

(1) he's using US assets to go after Snowden, and
(2) he is not now and is not going to go after NSA officials.

What can the defenders say?
(1) I don't care and no one else should either,
(2) other politicians have done this in the US and elsewhere,
(3) (reserved)

[Fuddnik]

84. And Ollie North and Poindexter never told St. Ronnie about Iran-Contra.

Now, how much will you give me for this bridge?

[azurnoir]

87. yep my first thought when I read Obama didn't know

although in hindsight considering claims about Reagan's mental state that one could conceivably to true, if so Nancy and George the 1st knew

[MisterP]

130. maybe they'll release the receipts in 2034

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB113/July%209,%201984.pdf

[rhett o rick]

156. They probably didnt tell Big Ron but I bet they told Nancy. You didnt want to cross Big Nance. nm

[DirkGently]

85. Plausible deniability is an old game.

He may have known, or, more likely, he could have deduced from his briefings. But there is a little dance where the President doesn't ask where intel comes from so he doesn't "know."

The L.A. times story yesterday seemed to indicate that. The headline said the WH knew and approved, but further down the "angry" intel sources said it was more implied than stated.

What worries me is how much actual control or oversight anyone has over our massive intel apparatus. There's "too big to fail," and "too big to control."

Neither are good for democracy.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

96. Yes. An old, old game.

"Ian Kershaw wrote of the common German’s reaction to Nazi excesses and atrocities:

"the myth of ‘if only the Fuhrer knew’ was already at work. Many genuinely believed that matters, especially if unpalatable, were deliberately kept from Hitler, and that if he learned of them he would act swiftly to set things right.

"A similar attitude characterizes most Catholics’ reaction to the possibility that John Paul II was guilty of a major failure in tolerating sexual abuse by clerics. They can’t believe that John Paul knew what was going on and didn’t act. His subordinates most have kept things from him or he must have been disabled or…or…or well something!"

http://www.podles.org/dialogue/if-only-the-fuhrer-knew-400.htm

The tactic works so well that they will continue to use it.

[rhett o rick]

138. You said it all. If it was only "plausible deniability" I wouldnt be so worried.

But the "too big to control" is more like it.

The same exact operations and programs are in place that were in place during the Lost Bush Years.

I believe when Pres Obama got in office, he had a meeting with the heads of the spy agencies. I believe they told him that they had an elaborate intelligence program in place and functioning well. And I think they strongly recommended that Mr. President not mess with it. Because if he did "mess" and there was a terrorist strike on America, he, Mr. President would own it.

The spy agencies are constant while the presidents just come and go.

[kentuck]

106. There are some dumb comments in this thread.

No big deal, huh?

[GeorgeGist]

126. +1

[bvar22]

142. I had to go back up and Rec the thread because of all the low budget spinning...

...and adolescent Personal attacks on the OP.

I used to Rec threads because they were good.
Now I find myself Reccing threads because of the embarrassing attempts to kill the messenger with childish personal attacks, and the extreme contortions required to defend the indefensible.
I want readers to see the names, and KNOW who and what they are.



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[Fumesucker]

151. Have you ever been mesmerized by a murmuration of starlings?

Sweeping and flowing like a cloud over the landscape, you never know which way the the flock will turn and I don't think they do either.

[Dragonfli]

166. My favorite contortion so far: "Your neighbor has this ability."

Your neighbor has this ability.

Where does the 'concern' and fear and paranoia end?

I think I will go next door and ask my neighbor to tap the Canadian Prime Ministers personal phone, I need some intel so that we may all "blame Canada", In fact, I want to know what everyone in me neighborhood has said and posted as well as everyone they have contacted this past year simply out of curiosity, I am sure it's all on Jake's hard drive.

If only the random one had told me sooner how unnecessary the NSA budget is when you want to record everything on and from everyone.

I had no idea what the NSA does is so easy, Why the fuck do they need more than a couple hundred dollars if my neighbor can do what they do? What are they doing with all those billions just taking it home?

[MannyGoldstein]

168. The NSA needs the cash to build the Starship Meshuganah

Apparently Starfleet Commander Alexander wants to be the first man to land on the sun... it was Bush's idea, but Alexander's always up for a good trip. That stuff costs serious money.

He'll be setting out instruments that can spy on the entire solar system, it'll be AWESOME. We'll be able to take video of Snowden being aloof to his neighbors in real time, with excellent lighting, that should shut the fringe left up.

[jsr]

169. We also need to see his garage.

[chervilant]

170. While you're at it,

ask your all-powerful neighbor to tap the derisive and sanctimonious bloggers herein, so that we might know at last whether they're registered Democrats.

Really...inquiring minds want to know.

(I would use the sarcasm thingy, but I know from your previous posts that you're erudite enough to get it without the emoticon.)

[rhett o rick]

139. I am not sure Manny. I can see the spies giving the President some data

on the Germans, for example, and the President saying, "where did you get this." And General Clapper's answer, "Do you really want to know sir."

If anyone fires anyone, it'll be General Clapper firing Obama.

The Powers To Be let the Democrats have the presidency, they are NOT about to let them have the intelligence agencies.

[stillcool]

154. it's impossible for me to imagine..

What goes on in the various massive agencies. I can't imagine anyone knowing whose doing what..in even in one agency. It's like imagining the universe. Too much to take in. The hierarchy must be a mess..especially with all the spy jargon..black-ops, false flags, cut-outs..etc,etc.

[Poll_Blind]

145. +1 nt

PB

[Peacetrain]

155. Horse Hockey

The Presidents big mistake.. is believing in collegiality.. coming from the senate.. but the NSA spying has been in place long before he took office..and while he may have thought that powers that be, would work as we wish.. just like the old FBI under Hoover..it takes on a life of its own and protects itself.

This President has had to clean up more messes.. and get blamed for more crap that previous administrations installed than I can even recall...

I have seen this so many times I have lost count.. and have seen many pies served up.. only to watch people run to grab something else.. oh he did this..yes yes.

I am going to have to see the fingerprints under analysis of this administration purposefully continued or installed that type of unwarranted surveillance.

[bvar22]

171. I don't think so.

The President's biggest mistake was falling so in love with Ronald Reagan and Market Based Solutions that he never got to the chapter on The New Deal and The Great Society.

[6000eliot]

161. Guess what? I don't care.