Have you thought about what you'd do if confronted with an active shooter?

[fried eggs]

I'm not so sure we can continue to tell ourselves that the chances of it happening to us are one in a million.

What would you do? Hide? Run? Try to convince him to stop?

[JaneyVee]

1. Call 911, then tweet about it in real time of course.

[Make7]

2. I'm too busy spending my imaginary lottery winnings to think about it. ( n/t )

[Agschmid]

15. I prefer that too.

[Rex]

56. Winner in 2 posts!

[treestar]

121. Thread win!

[malaise]

125. DUzy

[Bjorn Against]

3. Until a person is in that situation no one can really know what they would do.

In some cases it would be better to run, other cases it would be better to hide, and in some situations it would be best to try to be a hero. I don't think it is anything a person can really plan for because the reality of the situation is probably not going to be what you planned for.

[Xipe Totec]

6. I agree. From a Mexican perspective, I can only suggest one maxim

If death is inevitable, choose an honor guard and take them with you.

[arcane1]

10. Exactly. And I refuse to expect that scenario all the time, everywhere I go. I can't live like that.

I like to make note of emergency exits, and a prudent precaution, but not for any specific event. I'm more likely to die in an earthquake than by a crazed gunman.

[fried eggs]

89. If you learn CPR, does that mean you're going to be in fear of having to use it

everywhere you go? Having a plan in place for something that most likely won't occur isn't unheard of. Just saying.

[Blue Diadem]

141. I agree. Each situation is different.

It would take quick thinking to assess the situation and decide from there.

[War Horse]

178. My thoughts exactly N/T

[Aristus]

4. Run as fast as I can in the opposite direction.

I'm convinced that one of the reasons that gun-crazies are so fanatical about their obsession is due to some weird Rambo fantasy where their gun and their cool, unruffled behavior under fire earn them public adoration and approbation.

That's a good fantasy for spicing up an otherwise dreary and meaningless life.

But the real-life solution is to get as far away from the shooter as possible.

[NuclearDem]

5. Stay out of it as much as possible.

As a great woman once said:

Know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

19. She could have been thinking about John Wayne the draft doger.

[beevul]

105. She was thinking about stealing alliance payrole.

Her sentence was aimed at a security guard.

[Jenoch]

260. John Wayne was able to avoid the

because he was older with children. Other established Hollywood stars signd up for military service. Wayne did not dodge the draft so much as he chose not to serve.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

262. "In 1944, Wayne received a 2-A classification, "deferred in support of [the] national ... interest."

"A month later the Selective Service decided to revoke many previous deferments and reclassified him 1-A. But Wayne's studio appealed and got his 2-A status reinstated until after the war ended."

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1055/was-john-wayne-a-draft-dodger

Yes, he was a draft doger. With the help of his studio.

You excuse and defend John Wayne based upon his earlier act of obtaining a 3-A status ("deferred for dependency reasons&quot . But that was years earlier.

Garry Wills tells the story in his book John Wayne's America: The Politics of Celebrity (1997):

"At the time of Pearl Harbor, Wayne was 34 years old. ... Should he ... enlist? Many of Hollywood's big names, such as Henry Fonda, Jimmy Stewart, and Clark Gable, did just that. (Fonda, Wills points out, was 37 at the time and had a wife and three kids.)"

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1055/was-john-wayne-a-draft-dodger

&quot During the war he'd gotten into a few fights with servicemen who wondered why he wasn't in uniform.) Some think his guilty conscience was one reason he became such a superpatriot later. The fact remains that the man who came to symbolize American patriotism and pride had a chance to do more than just act the part, and he let it pass.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1055/was-john-wayne-a-draft-dodger

This is worth repeating:
The fact remains that the man who came to symbolize American patriotism and pride had a chance to do more than just act the part, and he let it pass.

He was a chicken-hawk. A cowardly, chest-thumping chicken-hawk.

[Jenoch]

264. Clinton had draft boards doing

stuff to help him to avoid the draft. I really don't care much about it one way or the other. I do know that men from all sides of the political spectrum attempted to avoid military service.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

265. To avoid being called cowards and chicken-hawks, "Super-patriots" should have served in the military

Not going into the military during wartime when they are being cheerleaders for others to do so, should be recognized by everyone for what it is.

Why are you raising Clinton's name?

Who cares what the hell Clinton did? Did he ever pretend to be a super-patriot? Was he ever a cheerleader for others to sign up? The answer is no, he wasn't.

[Jenoch]

266. You are correct of course,

Clinton did not a cheer leader for others to sign up. He did avoid service and then ordered those who did signup into harms way. I prefer to deal with facts.

Of course there are others who did similar things. Reagan did not serve in combat ans neither did Bush 43.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

267. You seem to be obsessed with bringing up Clinton's name as a diversion.

Clinton seemed to be someone who would delegate while preferring to mingle and glad-hand people.

You have evidence that he sent draftees into harms way? Or that he, instead of letting the military brass make decisions, personally ordered men into harms way? If so, where is it?

John Wayne was and always will be, no matter what you think about the Clintons, a cowardly chicken-hawk.

[Jenoch]

269. You certainly like to make assumptions.

Clinton did not serve. For all practical purposes, neither did Reagan or Bush 43. They put servcemen in harms way. Clinton never sent draftees in harms way, why would you suggest such a thing?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

270. You falsely equate Clinton with John Wayne, a proven draft-dodger. When Clinton was the President,

there was no draft. Clinton, unlike John Wayne, was never a cheerleader for sending draftees into harms way.

I take it that you are a John Wayne fan.

Too bad that the truth is that he was a cowardly chicken-hawk who super-patriot reputation was based upon false appearances.

[Jenoch]

272. When Clinton was a youth, there was a draft.

Clinton never sent draftees in harms way because there was no draft. I prefer to deal in facts. This started because I suggested Wayne did not sign up when other established Hollywood stars did sign up. As I said, I deal in facts.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

274. Unlike John Wayne, Clinton never gave the false impression of being a war hero.

[arcane1]

7. I'm much more likely to be walking, distracted from thinking about this, and get hit by a car.

We can most definitely continue to tell ourselves that the chances of it happening to us are one in a million.

[hunter]

8. My genetic heritage, demonstrated by experience, is full Berserker.

DO NOT LIKE...



Otherwise titled, "Why Hunter is a pacifist."

[GreenStormCloud]

9. Shoot at him. He won't be expecting return fire. N/T

[fried eggs]

24. Seriously?

What if the cops come and think you are involved? Or shoot at you?

[GreenStormCloud]

189. How fast do the cops arrive?

There have been several cases of a CCWer shooting at an active shooter and the cops haven't shot the CCWer by mistake yet.

[Hoyt]

25. That's what all you gun guys say. You'll just get more killed.

[GreenStormCloud]

191. Hasn't happened yet. You sound like you are hoping for it to happen that way. N/T

[Paladin]

197. You're the one dealing in wishful thinking here. (nt)

[GreenStormCloud]

206. No. I will be happy if I never have to use my gun for anything but target practice. N/T

[Hoyt]

205. No, but the fact you guys strap a gun on and dream of being a hero,

makez it much more likely.

[friendly_iconoclast]

215. Despite your fervent proclamations, you have no telepsychological skills

So you do not, in fact, know how someone else thinks or feels.

[Hoyt]

227. I have a pretty good idea what motivates you to strap a gun on before venturing

out, doesn't take extraordinary skills.

[friendly_iconoclast]

229. Thank you for proving me correct- I do not own a gun...

...and thus cannot "strap a gun on before venturing out"

May we assume your other posts are of similar accuracy?

[GreenStormCloud]

233. Did you learn your skills when you were a robber?

Note for jury and others: Hoyt has claimed, on DU to have been a former robber. I am meely taking him at his word on that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

[Hoyt]

239. Better than being a stalker, and not being able to read posts in context. Hope you more perceptive

when carrying your gun.

[friendly_iconoclast]

253. In this case 'stalker' = 'remembering and reposting embarassing posts'

[Hoyt]

256. No, I mean like you and your buddy are doin. Plus you cant read in context either.

[TheCowsCameHome]

31. Please tell us about your first hand experience.

It sounds very informative.

[Electric Monk]

37. Don't expect a reply. Skip Intro just took him down.

(I kid, I kid)

[cleanhippie]

188. Where did he say he was speaking from experience?

Reading comprehension saves lives.

[TheCowsCameHome]

200. A simple "I have none" would suffice.

Thanks for inquiring.

[cleanhippie]

226. You are the one that brought experience into the conversation for some reason...

And completely ignored what the poster actually stated.

Not really sure what your point was, if you even had one to begin with.

[GreenStormCloud]

192. I have not claimed such experience.

The others in this thread are stating what they think they woud do. None of them are claiming experience. So why are you asking me?

[BainsBane]

36. and kill Innocent bystanders in the process

[eqfan592]

41. more likely to have that happen from a cop than a ccw holder.

But don't let pesky facts get in the way.

[BainsBane]

43. Why? Because CCW holders are so much better trained than cops?

The reason it would more likely happen from a cop is because the cop is more likely to shoot. GreenStormCloud, however, has clearly said he would start shooting, which means he would be the one killing bystanders. You have a knack of completely ignoring all facts at issue.

[eqfan592]

45. and you have a knack for generating facts of your own.

For instance, you seem to think that bystanders would be hit without a doubt, with no supporting evidence to speak of. Each situation is different, and what the outcome may be is difficult at best to postulate.

[BainsBane]

84. because it happens time and time again

even with highly trained police. When someone starts shooting in a crowd, people die. That is why police are trained to avoid it. But that has no impact on the gun fantasist who looks for opportunities to take a life. That makes them every bit as dangerous as the initial shooter.

No one demonstrates why CCW is so dangerous more than people like that.

Once again, your argument completely falls apart. You can't even follow up with your "fact" that police are more likely to kill someone. Do you even think before your jump in with such comments that make no sense in the context of the discussion?

[friendly_iconoclast]

102. Got any evidence to show us?

[eqfan592]

112. Here ya go.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/02/21/disarming-the-myths-promoted-by-the-gun-control-lobby/2/

Now how about you sharing your evidence to support your claims?

[Jenoch]

92. How often have CCW holders shot

innocent bystanders in such a situation? Links to stories about such stories is fine.

[friendly_iconoclast]

101. Don't expect an answer to that question

[Hoyt]

241. How often have they stopped one? More to the point, how often have gun cultists' love of gunz

led to these tragedies. You'd do more to stop these tragedies by restricting the proliferation of gunz in our society, than putting one down your pants before venturing out.

[Jenoch]

261. Another moronic comment,

but everyone is used to them. I never made any claims. I did ask for information.

[Hoyt]

277. You are not really asking for information, you are attempting to protect your gunz. That's a fact.

[friendly_iconoclast]

282. That's only fair, as you have not provided any information...

[Hoyt]

283. And you have provided no evidence that yahoos toting guns stop these things.

Sometimes, you just have tonuse some common sense. More gunz do not make society safer.

[enki23]

163. Now there is a seriously stupid misuse of a proctal statistic.

Let's presume there is a stat out there that makes what you say technically correct. Just for the sake of argument. More people are shot by cops than are shot by ccw holders. I don't find that unlikely at all, for the same reason that I think that soldiers in active combat zones are more likely to shoot bystanders than both of them. Groups of people who shoot into groups of people more often will hit groups of people more often. Fucking genius.

But the way you clearly intended this is something more than that. So, you have evidence that suggests that shots from a cop are more likely to hit a bystander than the same shots taken by joe schmo, the concealed weapon carrier?

No. No, you don't. Even if the above stat is correct, your post is a stupid lie.

[GreenStormCloud]

195. Where did you buy your crystal ball?

There have been several cases of a CCWer shooting back at an active shooter. No innocent bystanders hit yet. You appear to think it is better to let the active shooter keep on shooting than to try to stop him with civilian gunfire.

[liberal_at_heart]

68. So when the two of you exchange gunfire and you hit an innocent are you prepared to be sued?

[eqfan592]

72. More likely to happen when a police officer opens fire than a ccw. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

78. yeah, right.

[GreenStormCloud]

198. Very, very, unlikely to happen.

First, I won't fire unless I can see that I have a clear shot.

Second, I will aim. Since my gun has a laser sight, I am extremely unlikely to miss.

Even without the laser sight, when I fired for qualification I scored 250 out of 250 possible.

When I was in the Navy I qualified as "Expert" when I fired the M1911A1 .45 pistol. That was before laser sights.

What about the innocent people the active shooter is hitting? Don't they count? If I have to ability to stop such a madman, don't I have the obligation to do so? You seem to think that me shooting the active shooter, and thereby saving other lives, is a bad thing.

[Brother Buzz]

80. DUzy

[zbdent]

11. Actually ... it sorta happened ...

Early nineties, before "going postal" was more than just a rare event ...

I was leaving the Cleveland Public Library through the main entrance.

As I was passing by the guard desk, a man was getting into an argument with the guard.

I passed within ten feet of them, and headed toward the door. Argument got louder, I turned to see the man pull out a gun and, as I recall, aim toward the guard. The guard ducked behind the desk, and the gun went off.

People were scattering ... and I just was watching it unfold. After a second, I realized, "Hey, maybe I should get my ass out of the area." I started running up the steps.

Later on, I heard the news report about it. The report claimed that the shooter aimed at the ceiling. (Not the way I witnessed it!)

So I sorta experienced this, but didn't totally freak out. Fortunately, it didn't go on for long.

Still, I'd likely duck and cover.

[rrneck]

12. Not seriously, no.

The chances of being involved in an active shooter event are probably less that being struck by lightning.

[Loudly]

117. Does that probability you claim trend better or worse

as more guns and ammunition are poured into the hands of the public?

[rrneck]

123. Better.

The crime rate has been falling for decades and the planet has enjoyed a period of peace never before seen in history.

Read a book sometime.

[cleanhippie]

193. The facts say its getting better.

The FBI keeps pretty good records. They publish interesting stats and facts constantly.

Play the lottery. Your chances of winning are much better than your chances of being involved in a shooting.

[hack89]

199. We have cut our murder rate in half over the past 30 years. Nt

[Revanchist]

271. But how much of that is because of advancements in trauma care?

I would like to see statics on the number of gun incidents instead of the murder rate, due to the fact we have the ability to save more people now compared to 30 years ago.

This isn't a question based on gun control, but on medical technology.

[friendly_iconoclast]

273. Then they would be aggravated assaults, which have also declined.

[hack89]

278. Every measure of violent crime is down significantly

Rape, armed robbery, assault, manslaughter, ....

We are a much less violent society then we were 30 years ago.

When you shoot someone and as they die the crime is murder or manslaughter. If they survive the crime is aggravated assault. Aggravated assault is down too.

[ManiacJoe]

13. Escape, hide, fight (in that order).

Escape if you can.
Hide if you cannot escape.
Fight if discovered by the Bad Guy(s).

Any self-defense tools you have with you will increase your odds in the fight phase. Knowing the difference between cover and concealment is a good thing.

My goal in the fight is to make my escape.

[Agschmid]

14. Yes.

I actually run drills with it too... I work in a public space with many visitors everyday.

We have two designated meeting spot... two just in case the first one also has an active shooter. The worst part for me would be separating families and NOT allowing them to reunite because I should/could not re-open the doors.

[upaloopa]

16. I'm not going to live my life in fear.

We can die a thousand different ways everyday. You can try to reduce the risk but you can't prevent everything like a shooter or a car accident.

[MADem]

17. Last time that happened to me, I ran like hell and helped a little old lady get away.

She was deaf so she started beating me up, but once she figured out what was going on she was a bit more appreciative.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

18. Well, first I have to determine if they are "active"

According to some (who post here) if I interfere with a "good gun owner" just exercising his civil rights, I'm a terrorist of the highest order.

So I guess I'll wait for the first shot to the chest so as not to offend them.

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. No.

Live free or die.

[Skip Intro]

21. I would try to stop him and save lives, likely by shooting him.

I would get to what I thought was a relatively safe spot, if possible, and then figure a way to stop him. I would assume 911 had been called. Of course, I would try to get family and friends, and those nearby, to a safer area also.

But to stop the killer? If I could get a clear shot, I would take him down.

[Hoyt]

27. Not sure I hope that, but it is likely outcome. But they gotta have their gunz.

[friendly_iconoclast]

104. "..but it is (the) likely outcome." And you know this how, exactly?

(And no, lectures from The College of It Stands to Reason don't count...)

[Hoyt]

124. You are kidding, you want a 20year peer reviewed study to show gun toting hero wannabes

are dangerous. I think you should leave your gunz at home until you become more rational on gunz.

[friendly_iconoclast]

213. Nope, just some actual evidence as opposed to a faith-based argument.

If the practice is as dangerous as you claim it is, you must have some actual examples
that show why.

IOW, something more than "I believe that CCW holders are a danger to public safety"
is called for.

[Hoyt]

221. Better than, "we need to carry gunz to protect ourselves against unlikely events,

and screw folks if our gun mania kills a bunch of innocent people, it's just the price we pay for our freedumbs."

[friendly_iconoclast]

223. I was expecting a *least* a few pictures of guys in camo...

...along with a few proclamations about how 'this is what too many gun owners are
really like'.

You're slipping, Hoyt...

[Hoyt]

237. I'm sorry, should have guessed you would look for photos of others out to save/protect us.

[Hoyt]

234. Damn Hoyt, do you believe someone alerted on the post about "taking someone out."

It was obviously aimed at what is likely to happen if a bunch of armed cowboys start trying to stop these tragic events with the guns they stuff down their pants before venturing out. A bunch more innocent people will get killed (ie, take innocent people out).

But it does sell a lot of gunz, targets resembling humans, and make the toters feel like future medal of honor recipients or something when they tuck their guns away.

I think the jury missed the point.

[friendly_iconoclast]

244. "Damn Hoyt, do you believe someone alerted on the post about "taking someone out.""

You do realize you're replying to yourself, don't you?

Or was it post supposed to have come from 'someone else'?

[Hoyt]

245. Nope, for things with nuance, there is little need to post to gun culture.

Gunz are more important than innocent lives, victims of intimidation, society, children and whatever.

[Skip Intro]

28. Yeah, I'd definitely be the bad guy in the situation.

Of course, you could just lay there and hope the police show up in time to save you, or those important to you, or just innocent people in general. Talk about living in fear.

[Electric Monk]

35. There's just been a shooting, and you're standing there with a gun in your hands.

That's your idea of smart? Some GreenStormCloud or SkipIntro type character is just about to drop your ass, too, so they can play the hero, too.

[Rex]

60. So you are saying they would all just start shooting at each other

all at once? Yeah, I agree with that.

[eqfan592]

62. got an example of that happening? nt

[Rex]

65. Yeah I should listen to what you have to say before forming my own opinion

on something, thanks.

[eqfan592]

70. .....ok?... nt

[Skip Intro]

76. Try to be honest for a minute.

Saying I'd be "standing there" with a gun in my hand is really twisting what I said. I said if I had a shot, I would take it. And yeah, I'd try to find a good shot. I'd try to stop the monster before he killed anyone else. He would meet some type of resistance.

You can wear a "Please Don't Hurt Me," t-shirt everywhere you go if you like. I'll take fighting back over being a cowering victim any day.

[Electric Monk]

85. Try to not be "I like cjeekdgg" while alerting on yourself guy for a minute. Oh right, you can't.

There's history here, for any potential jurors, and my facts are in order. His aren't.

[pintobean]

132. Another brilliant reply

[Rex]

172. Yeah the truth hurts sometimes.

nt.

[pintobean]

174. I didn't feel a thing.

It was just dumb and irrelevant.

[rustydog]

42. last concealed carry "hero" in Washington thought he'd stop a mall shooter

He walked right past the bad-guy didn't even RECOGNIZE the shooter and got a bullet in the back for it. Unless you've been in a life or death, fight or flight situation, it is easy to talk tough harder to act. appropriately.
This isn't call of duty, this isn't sniper world ...it is reality and it is scary as shit when it happens.

A shooter is not a paper target at your local range or open field.

[eqfan592]

47. Sounds like that person failed to maintain situational awareness.

No it's not call of duty. I've been shot at before so I fully understand that.

[Skip Intro]

81. Yes, it is real life. Real death too. Are you sure you realize that?

As I said above, if you think letting somebody shoot people without any resistance, nobody trying to stop him or her, while you cower and hide hoping the police will save you, then knock yourself out. Some of us will fight back.

And, I'm not going to get into a long exchange about this, as google is free to all, but many lives have been saved by somebody shooting murderers and attempted murderers. So there's that.

I just don't get the "lay down and take it" perspective.

Btw, yes, I have been in a life-or-death, fight or flight situation.

[AgainsttheCrown]

285. The data says that you are correct

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings

As I reported recently in our in-depth investigation, not one of 62 mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years has been stopped this way. More broadly, attempts by armed civilians to intervene in shooting rampages are rare—and are successful even more rarely. (Two people who tried it in recent years were gravely wounded or killed.) And law enforcement overwhelmingly hates the idea of armed citizens getting involved.

This myth needs to be killed before more "armed heroes" make the next incident worse.

[Vashta Nerada]

96. How would the police know YOU'RE not the bad guy shooter if you're shooting at the shooter?

[eqfan592]

114. Doesn't seem to be an issue in practice. nt

[Vashta Nerada]

137. Sources?

[GreenStormCloud]

201. Because the police arrive after the fact.

Active shooters look for places where there aren't any cops to oppose them. The almost always go to so called gun-free zones. The police won't be there when it all starts.

If I am successful and take the bad guy out, then I am NOT going to stand around with my gun in my hand. I am going to put it back into the holster, concealed by my clothes. When the police do arrive, I will have my ID out, briefly explain what happened and tell them that I will cooperate fully with them. Then I will do what they say.

There are procedures that we are taught for stuff like that.

[Vashta Nerada]

208. And what if the police arrive while there's a Wild West Shoot out?

[friendly_iconoclast]

214. Simple- the person who *isn't* the crazy drops their weapon...

[GreenStormCloud]

217. In the real world, active shooter situations usually end as soon as they are getting shot at.

If they aren't taken out by someone else, they shoot themselves. A CCWer, since he is aleady on the scene, will be returning fire immediately. The entire situation, when opposed by a CCWer, so far has been over before the police get there, with one exception. In all situations, including that one the CCWer was not shot at by the police.

Usually the entire shoot-out, first shot to last, is only a few seconds. The famous gunfight at the OK corral (Actually in the street on Fremont St.) lasted about 30 seconds.

Overwhelmingly, street gunfights happen with the people that are there at the time and are over with before either side can get help.

[Vashta Nerada]

224. Is it really a good idea to shoot at a shooter in a packed mall?

Especially when innocents are trying to run away from shooters?

[GreenStormCloud]

228. Two things:

1. You don't fire if you don't have a clear shot at the bad guy, and have positively IDed him as the bad guy.

2. You seem to think that it is better to let the bad guy keep shooting people than to try to stop him. You are saying that because the CCWer "might" hit an innocent he should allow the bad guy to continue to shoot innocent people. Your way leads to more people getting shot then my way does.

[Vashta Nerada]

231. I like a third way better: allow the cops to stop the shooter.

[GreenStormCloud]

236. In the real world that means you let the bad guy keep shooting.

The cops aren't going to beam over like on Star Trek. It will take them several minutes to get there. During that time the active shooter gets to keep on killing.

Your way results in far more people getting shot.

Why does a civilian stopping the bad guy fill you with such fear? In the real world CCWers have managed to accumulate a better record than the police.

Bedtime. I will check back tomorrow.

[Vashta Nerada]

254. I'd rather let the cops deal with it than have two idiot shooters shooting.

[Sheldon Cooper]

113. ...

[Hoyt]

26. Would be over before then, but dream on and hug your gun.

[Skip Intro]

29. There's an intelligent reply.

(not really)

[Hoyt]

46. As was "you'd pull your gun and be a hero," without making things worse.

[sir pball]

134. I take it you OC an AR, then?

A wise man once said “The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down.”

Don't currently carry and haven't in a few years, but I like to keep my skills up as best I can; I'm pretty handy with my 1911 and I would only ever even think of engaging to directly protect me or my loved ones if there were no viable retreat options.

A handgun is simply inadequate to counter an active shooter with a long arm (absent counterterror/SpecOps training which I certainly don't have) - it's a close-quarters last-ditch defensive weapon while engaging a shooter is an offensive combat situation. Unless I have a carbine with a holosight, all I'm going to do is keep the shooter in sight as best as possible, move randomly and rapidly at 90-degree angles to him, and find cover as best as possible. And keep myself between him and the missus at all costs.

[bowens43]

169. that makes you part of the problem

[Boudica the Lyoness]

259. When the shit hits the fan

I want to be with you, lol. I'd also shoot the active shooter, if I had a gun, and of course, a clear shot.

I'm a big believer in fighting back and defending myself.

[Electric Monk]

22. Fantasize about it on the internet, because that helps, right?

[Niceguy1]

99. I guess it isn't just

The gun humpers that fantasize. ...

no offense to rational RKBA individuals.

[madinmaryland]

180. I see that this thread has degenerated into pure gun porn.

(Not you, but the gun nutters)

[pintobean]

181. But, he's the only one

with a hidden post.

[madinmaryland]

212. And yet the gun pornographers are still here. nt

[pintobean]

216. I don't know what you consider to be gun porn

but someone hoping that DUers shoot each other is pretty fucked up.

I guess everyone should have stopped posting in the thread when he got himself kicked out.

[kestrel91316]

30. Hide, then text somebody with details about what was happening so they could guide rescuers.

[rustydog]

40. Actually, experts advise against texting. You'd be surprised how easy it is to announce

your location if you text or call someone. silence your phone, close the door, block it with a desk or whatever furniture is available, turn off the lights and wait for police.
If you chose to fight: grab any weapon available. try to disable the shooting arm. if you kick for nuts,or a knockout blow and miss...you're toast. The gun will kill you (I know, the NRA insists it is people, not guns) forget all limbs and body parts BUT the one holding what will kill you. destroy that body part.

[kestrel91316]

90. Well I'd be turning off the phone seconds after sending the text.

I wouldn't be yakking on the damned thing.

Unless I figured out how to mute the ring. Then I could receive texts, too.

[Ian David]

32. Punch it in the nose. Oh, wait. That's for if you're attacked by a shark.

Wonder which one I'm more likely to need.

Hmmmm.

[liberal_at_heart]

33. Unless you are some sort of trained personnel, I'm not sure any of us know for sure how we

would handle it. I still go about my daily life not thinking about it. Life is not worth living if we live it in fear. I refuse to barricade myself in my house and never go out into public because someone might start shooting. Chances are much higher that I would get into a fatal car crash, and I still get in my car every day. In fact, I do more driving than most people do.

[benld74]

34. If alone, I'd be chewing the carpet trying to get lower

if with my family, laying atop them to protect them

[rustydog]

39. My job requires me to respond to protect our clients

We have an active shooter protocol to follow:
building lockdown, overhead page, 911 notification, evacuation if possible or shelter in place. await police and give them the cards and keys to the castle and stay out of their way.

[Agschmid]

61. Ours is the same.

[eqfan592]

44. Depends on the situation.

If I'm armed, I may try to find an angle to put a stop to the situation, but making sure my family is safe would be my top priority. And in a situation like the LAX shooting, armed response would problematic at best, at least out in the crowd. Not to mention I wouldn't be carrying at an airport to begin with, so that wouldn't be an option anyway.

[rustydog]

52. Problem is, in an active shooter situation

You don't get to tell the police you are the "hero" and the police may be a plainclothes dick yelling at you to drop your gun..do you drop it? maybe you haven't seen the actual shooter yourself...police will shoot you down if you do not drop immediately in an active shooter scenario.
they are not there to arrest, they are there to neutralize the target, the guy with the gun and that happens to be you at the moment..talking tough and heroic is cool, but reality can be eye-opening...Ask the wheelchair bound "hero" in Washington who didn't recognize the threat he was going to stop.

[eqfan592]

53. i have no interest in playing the hero.

Like I said, a situation like this makes an armed response difficult at best. I know what gunfire aimed at you sounds like and I have no desire for my family to experience that.

Out of curiosity, do you have any real life examples of a permit holder being shot by law enforcement in a scenario similar to what you described? I've heard of some talk about such a thing, but am yet to hear of a real life example of it.

[rustydog]

49. A L I C E is the favorite reponse of late

Alert : authorities and occupants of the shooter

Lockdown: prevent innocent people from entering the facility

Inform: Overhead page code-silver Or active shooter whatever your facility uses to identify the threat

Counter: If you cannot hide, fight back with the intent to disarm the assailant. the gun will kill you, not his knee or neck, jaw, balls...

Evacuate: If you can escape, flee the building and call 911 immediately. warn others of the danger inside.

[alittlelark]

50. Pretty broad scenario....

There are too many factors to account for to answer this question with any depth.

[XRubicon]

51. What would you do if you won powerball?

I like playing fantasy too.

[eqfan592]

55. It's not a fantasy, but instead a cold reality for many more people than have won the lottery. nt

[XRubicon]

57. It's fantasy for gun nuts

They like to dream about being the kid from Christmas Story shooting the bad guys... I'm pretty sure winning the lottery is pretty close to being a "good guy with a gun"

[eqfan592]

59. and how exactly do you classify a gun nut? nt

[XRubicon]

64. A person who thinks they need to carry a gun around

Pretty much that...

Usually a person of lower social and economic standing that feels like carrying a gun makes them more powerful and in control.

I have more if you are interested.

[eqfan592]

67. No, your response was enough to recognize your ignorance, i need no further evidence. thanks. nt

[XRubicon]

69. You are quite welcome

[Rex]

74. You mean like this guy!?

I know exactly of whom you speak.

[XRubicon]

77. Yes

That is the guy.

[Rex]

79. I give him special extra stupid points for the fake guitars.

Nothing says sad, like showing off your prize air guitars!

[petronius]

86. That version is photoshop - this is how it really went down:

A while back I read the history of that photo - the guy was definitely aware of the joke and it was a sad/interesting story (if what I read was true). Need to find that again...

[Rex]

88. AHHHH!!!!!

My eyes, my eyes! THANKS! Some things can never be unseen now!

[irisblue]

176. and he wonderswhy hecannot get dates....nt

[spin]

94. I know a number of middle class and upper class individuals who have a concealed weapons ...

permit and carry regularly.

One is a well known doctor and several own their own successful businesses. Many others have a college or technical education and work in a profession that pays well.

I know many more well off people who have a carry permit than people who would be described as a "person of lower social and economic standing." I will admit that I have known a few with a carry license who would fit that description but often they had damn good reason to carry a firearm as they lived in a dangerous neighborhood.

The majority of the people I know who legally carry have an interest in shooting firearms as a hobby.

[Hoyt]

126. Mostly Republican bigots, I bet.

I've known a few of those too. They think minorities are gonna get them. And there us a study to prove that.

[Electric Monk]

75. Someone who thinks that's a good question, quite likely is. Good enough answer for you? nt

[pintobean]

133. No. It's just a baseless accusation

that no one wants to define. Your answer is an excellent example.

[arely staircase]

185. not necessarily. like I posted downthread, I have seen two shootings in my lifetime.

in the first case I fled and the second case I took cover until it was over. It was nothing like winning the lottery (or as I imagine winning the lottery to be.)

[XRubicon]

186. Where was your gun???!!!

[Recursion]

109. A mass shooter? There are a lot more powerball winners than mass shooting victims (nt)

[JNelson6563]

54. Stop, drop & roll

a fatty and say "Dude, let's smoke one and talk about this."

Julie

[calimary]

58. Probably drop to the ground. Preferably BEHIND something. And call 911.

And yeah, I have thought about it. Scary. Disgraceful that it's even something well-worth thinking about. It's a damn shame that this can happen, and DOES. I mean, how many shootings is this - since just, well, say, Newtown, CT? Is this many in almost a year's time still an okay number of 'em - before we finally decide something definitive simply HAS TO be done (and maybe make it as hard to come by a gun as it now is to vote, for example).

A friend of mine was previously going to come through LAX today, before having to change to a different flight on a different day. Today! I just departed and arrived through there last weekend. YES certainly living one's life in fear is no way to live. True. But why not just be observant? I have friends who always make note of the exits wherever they go. First thing they do is scan for the exits whenever they enter someplace. Just because. If I remember to, I do also. Also good in case of fire, btw.

[ileus]

63. Took our active shooter inservice...

I swear 90% of what a I learned was barricade and hide.

Sounds like the best plan.

[Ikonoklast]

187. If you do anything other than this in a crowd shooting situation, you're a danger to others just

as soon as you pull your weapon.

Going up against a semi-auto rifle with a peashooter...no, thanks. You'd get one chance at success.

If you don't immediately take down the shooter, you're toast, and so is anyone near you.

[bemildred]

276. Hiding is definitely your best shot, it there is some suitable place.

A fellow in the midst of a killing orgy is not going to be meticulous about checking the cuboards and such.

[woodsprite]

66. Here's a trailer from a video that we are required to view as part of HR orientation

at work. I can't link to the whole video because its behind a firewall and we hav ego authenticat, then sign off that we've viewed the video. It's called "Shots Fired on Campus"

http://m.

[Jenoch]

71. The only real answer to your question is, it depends.

You are correct when you say we cannot assume the chances of such a thing happening to us are one in a million, the chances are one in many millions.

[Eleanors38]

73. I check exits (fire & otherwise), alcoves, big knots of people (avoid),

and where security (if any) is located, non-paranoid situational awareness. Otherwise, philosophy must wait on pop-up circumstance.

Gosh, folks, looks like good weather in many places. Get some sleep. Try to enjoy it. As for me, I'm going deer-hunting!

[Bosso 63]

82. Duck and cover

[Quixote1818]

83. If I were in a restaurant I would put ketchup all over myself and play dead.

Every situation would be different. You would have to either run and hide, play dead or reach for something to protect yourself. Trying to talk the person down like that one lady did at the school could also be an option in the right circumstance.

[Chan790]

87. Run, changing direction often.

Unless the shooter is military trained, their likelihood of hitting a dodging fleeing target are poor.

[Jamaal510]

103. ^^This.^^

[delta17]

118. Do you remember the guy who started shooting in a casino in Vegas?

I don't have a link, but he had a handgun. Three of four people mobbed and tackled him. One of them was in the military. After that, I've always thought that a group of people rushing the shooter would work. The problem is organizing when everything is so chaotic.

This is the storyI was thinking of:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-06-vegas-shooting_N.htm

[TorchTheWitch]

91. knowing myself in bad situations I'd likely freeze

It's only afterward that I scold myself about why didn't I do this or that, etc. I still feel the fear or absolute panic in a bad situation but I don't seem to react... don't scream, run, hide, act the hero, etc. I'm feeling everything but not really registering what's happening and just become sort of paralyzed. This does rather worry me since in some kind of bad situation where I'd HAVE to react in some way in order to save myself my brain and body wouldn't be paying attention almost as if I was watching a movie instead of a real like situation, and I'd likely just stand there like a dope and get shot.

[Warpy]

93. Dive and hope somebody in better physical shape than I am

Will wait for him to reload and launch a chair or two at him.

[Vashta Nerada]

97. I don't like hypothetical situations.

They're pointless.

[joshcryer]

100. Been shot at before, and accosted at gunpoint.

I like to think I will act, but in both cases my flight instinct kicked in. Though, when I was accosted at gunpoint a macho thing kicked in and I wanted to do something about it, if only he was a few feet closer, I think I might've done something stupid.

I think if it was a protracted shooting and I got safely hid away, I'd assess the situation and I think if my adrenalin kicked in (which it almost certainly would) and I had an opportunity that that had acceptable risks, I would act, and try to stop the shooter, even if it meant my own death.

My death would be an acceptable risk, for instance, if the shooter was approaching myself and a room full of innocent people, it might not be if it was just another person with me and I was out of sight or something, I know it sounds callous but I'd do the assessment and figure out what to do.

In any event, it would be wrong to say my first action would be to do something, I would run and hide. It's after the fact where I would make my decision and it would have a risk assessment with it.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

106. Other than shit myself?

No, not really.

[LeftyMom]

107. Unless you have specific and repeated training, you don't fucking know.

If you do, you probably still don't fucking know, because every situation is different, and stress reactions are somewhat unpredictable.

[Recursion]

108. You were much more likely to face someone shooting you 20 years ago. More than twice as likely

You'd probably be better off working on contingency plans for car accidents.

[msanthrope]

110. I will tell you what I did when I was in a situation with a person with a gun.

I threw a lamp at them. It gave the people around the person the time and the impetus to Get The Fuck Away.

[davidpdx]

111. There was actually a program on Discovery Channel about this

I found part of it on Youtube, but the video was a crappy quality.

As someone else said it depends on quite a few factors as in where I was located in relation to the people shooting, how many gunmen there were, etc. If I felt I could help I probably would. I'm not big, fast, or dangerous so I've got that going against me.

Things like a fire extinguisher could be used as a diversion to at least help other people escape. If you were up above the person grab what heavy objects you could and start lobbing them at the person in hopes of knocking them out.

[B Calm]

115. I would pull out my AK 47 Assault Rifle concealed in my underpants

and waste the dude!

[Violet_Crumble]

116. Do the best FB status update ever!

Thing is I live somewhere where people don't run round shooting people on a regular basis like in the US, so I'm just going to have to stick with status updates of the latest meal at the latest restaurant I went to until I vacation in the US and am at risk of being shot...

[KansDem]

119. Duck and cover?

It worked during the Cold War.

Otherwise, run like Hell...

[HappyMe]

120. I have no idea.

I don't think about stuff like that. Probably run or hide.

[treestar]

122. Schools now have intruder drills, like fire drills

It is amazing to me that workplaces never have them.

[Mike Nelson]

127. If there is an active shooter, you should drop...

...to the ground and remain still. The shooter will fire at people running away.

[JEFF9K]

128. It depends on what kind of gun he has. ...

Some possibilities are: running away in a non-straight line, calling 911, throwing things at him, tackling him as he attempts to reload, ...

[bemildred]

129. Yeah, I obsess about it every day.

[Paladin]

140. As you can see from this thread, that obsession exists here at DU. (nt)

[bemildred]

143. Maybe it's all the mass killings. Could freak anyone out. nt

[CrispyQ]

130. Hit the floor. --nt

[Ranchemp.]

131. In my case.

I would try to get a tactical position, draw my weapon, engage the shooter and take him/her down.

[Hoyt]

135. First thing I would think about is, I hope there is not some cowboy/hero type toting a gun here.

Gun toters really think they'd respond like they do shooting targets that resemble humans.

It's laughable to think someone who can't walk out of their house without a gun would respond adequately in the few second these things go down.

Even police don't do well in these cases, in those few seconds.

[Ranchemp.]

136. Let me put it this way my friend,

I'm highly trained by the US Govt. and I hone my shooting skills quite often, as it is part of the protocol I operate under.

BTW, the first thing you would think about is self survival, not rather if some civilian is carrying a gun.

[Hoyt]

138. "Highly trained" means little in these situations. Besides, I wouldn't be encouraging cowboys

to carry guns in public to save us from shooters, my friend.

[Ranchemp.]

139. You have no idea what you're talking about,

highly trained means that when the shit hits the fan, the training kicks in and goes into auto mode.
I've been shot at, stabbed, punched, and generally been attacked several times in my career, when the adrenaline kicks in, the body and mind go into hyperdrive and the intense training takes over.

And when have I encouraged anyone to carry a gun in public?
And, what's your experience in active shooters?

[Hoyt]

142. Actually, I was in a mass shooting in Atlanta in 1990s. Did well, even when policeman

on steroids pointed his gun at me. And I've had gun cultists pull guns on me. Handled it without anyone getting hurt.

Sorry man, sneaking up on marijuana growers on federal land with a team of officers ain't the same as reacting in a few seconds in a mass shooting. And I'm not minimizing danger of what you do/did. But it's not the same as responding in a few seconds to some gun nut with his AR15(s), and you and Massad Ayoob -- of all people -- ought to know it.

[Ranchemp.]

144. Sneaking up on MJ growers on federal land?

WTF are you talking about? That's not my job or even my Agency.
My job is to hunt down the baddest of the bad and bring them to justice, I could care less about someone growing MJ wherever.

I have faced armed, desperate subjects many times, so I know WTH I'm talking about.

[Hoyt]

152. Guess I got you mixed up with another fed gun promoter on here who did that.

Do you hunt these bad boys down alone, probably not? So, you are not dealing with that few seconds in a mass shooting.

[Ranchemp.]

161. No, not alone.

I work with a 4 person team and local LE to affect an arrest.
And I have in no way promoted the carrying of guns by civilians, that's not my concern.

[Hoyt]

166. Wel then, your experience is not directly applicable to the discussion.

[Ranchemp.]

167. Sure it is,

the question is, Have you thought about what you'd do if confronted with an active shooter?

I answered the question based on my training/experience.

[ZombieHorde]

170. If you hunt down the baddest of the bad,

why haven't you raided the Country Music Awards yet? The name is not ironic. They actually celebrate country music. They even put it on TV for all to see. Children even see it.

[Ranchemp.]

171. LOL.

Touche'

[bemildred]

145. Ayoob is a good read. nt

[Hoyt]

149. Ayoob is a bigoted gun cultist who makes a living "teaching" old white guys why they need a gun in

their pants. No respect for him, sorry.

[bemildred]

151. Sorry, won't make that mistake again. nt

[Hoyt]

155. LOL. Peace.

[bemildred]

160. Well OK then.

I inherited a weapon along with Ayoob's book. I am not a gun person, I may have shot a gun for target practice twenty times in my whole life, and missed every time, so I found it fascinating that what he (Ayoob) said coincides with the conclusions I came to on my own about gunfights.

People see all that utter bullshit on TV and they think it's real.

But I was not advocating for his views personally, I still don't know shit about guns, I suppose if I piss someone off and they come for me I will be a helpless victim. Mostly he convinced me I didn't much want any guns around, or other serious weapons. There is plenty of stuff that will kill you around the house as it is.

[GreenStormCloud]

218. Ayoob is one of the best gun experts in the country.

He is strongly pro-gun and is actively hated by the anti-gun crowd. The accusation that he is a bigot is totally false. He does teach street combat tactics at his school, Lethal Force Institute. It isn't cheap. His classes are open to anybody with a clean police record and the money for the tuition.

He does not tolerate racist language from the students at his school.

[bemildred]

275. He seemed serious about what he did and not full of shit.

On the other hand, it's hard to argue he is anti-gun.

Now you guys just "carry" on without me, I was just interested in Ayoob because he was not the usual gun aficianado.

[Hoyt]

279. He's a gun carrying nut who makes a living teaching white guys how to use/carry a gun like a bigot.

COMBAT SHOOTING -- What kind of person is attracted to that in our country?

[GreenStormCloud]

286. His school is open to all races. N/T

[Hoyt]

287. But who signs up for his Combat Shooting for Bigots course?

The same yahoos arming up, promoting more gunz in society, etc.

[friendly_iconoclast]

222. You forgot "As a former robber, I locked the door to keep people out, especially police."

Why so reticent about the CV, Hoyt?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

There's also:

"I was field-stripping a 1911 by age 8,"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2209217

"I was brought up around guns too. Taught to field strip a 1911 by 10 years old, and had my first target rifle around the same age. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022722303#post76

[ScreamingMeemie]

150. Thank you Hoyt.

Me too.

[ScreamingMeemie]

146. That is so silly sounding.

Sorry, but reading your post made me giggle.

[Ranchemp.]

147. Sorry you find it funny,

but this is what part of my training entails, neutralizing an active shooter.

[ScreamingMeemie]

148. It is...very funny.

You would not have the time. This entire thread on "wondering what would happen" is silly. The relying on "training" (gosh I love the Internets) makes it sillier still in some ways.
What would you do if you looked up and a piano was seconds from landing on your head?

[Hoyt]

153. +1

[Ranchemp.]

154. You can do all the "what if's" you want,

the fact remains that my training includes active shooter scenarios, what's your training in this field?

[ScreamingMeemie]

157. Sorry. I could make something up, but I don't do that.

Not going to argue with you but my next-door neighbor was dating a man with "training in this field..." Turns out he was a whackadoodle with grand delusions who ended up killing a dog by accident on a "mission" one night.

Don't worry, it's not just you... I don't buy training stories from anyone on the Internets.

Again, it would be a sad thing if one spent so much time thinking about this...

[Hoyt]

158. I know you didn't ask me, but my training is looking at the facts. The last shooting on a military

base with armed MPs, and all those highly trained folks, didn't go so well. In fact, I think the shooter took some of their guns. But hey, wouldn't want to ruin your day by forcing you to accept your limitations. Please leave you guns at home today, unless on duty.

[ScreamingMeemie]

159. Thank you Hoyt.

Highly trained does not always equate with able to make the correct decision.

[Ranchemp.]

162. I'm required to be armed at all times, so, no, I won't leave my weapon at home when

not on duty.

[Hoyt]

165. Maybe one day you won't have to comply with orders, and cando what's right.

[Ranchemp.]

168. Only when I retire.

[Turbineguy]

156. Wish

I'd memorized more republican talking points?

[DavidDvorkin]

164. Cower.

[ZombieHorde]

173. I always carry a

basket of grenades just in case this happens. Some people think this is extreme, but I would rather have a basket of grenades and not need them, then not have the basket of grenades and need them.

[Rex]

175. I have a slingshot, I let it stick out of my back pocket so people can see it.

Now I don't carry any stones with me, but do have some cat's eye marbles in my pocket and would use them in a total crisis situation. I think nobody messes with me, cuz they see my shooter sticking out of my pants. Yeah I said it.

[ZombieHorde]

268. I know I wouldn't fuck with you.

Nor would I fuck with anyone around you. I would eavesdrop on your conversations though, if I could.

[Dash87]

177. Run away from the bullets, and hopefully not get hit by one

That sounds like the normal thing to do.

[Silent3]

182. Why do you think the odds have changed?

I don't know if they were ever as low as "one in a million", but they aren't very high, and no impression created by big, sensationalist news stories constitutes evidence for a real change in actual probabilities.

If you do have the back luck to encounter someone waving a gun in your face, there's a very good chance it'll be someone you know: a lover, a friend, or a family member.

Things like this recent airport shooting, school shootings, movie theater and mall shootings? Those are still on the order of one-in-a-million events. You have far more to worry about from eating too much, drinking too much, or exercising too little than you do random crazed gunmen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. Because they are actually increasing in frequency

http://www.policymic.com/articles/64057/why-are-mass-shootings-increasing-even-while-gun-violence-is-decreasing

Perhaps that is the reason. It is not just media here.

[Silent3]

230. This is still just different levels of vanishingly small chances, however, not some huge change...

...that takes this risk into a whole new level where planning for the next crazed gunman becomes worth major planning and preparation in everyone's life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

238. Well preparation comes to few easy to remember principles

Flee if possible.

Hide, barricade

Only fight when absolutely necessary.

At no point is fighting back with guns a'blazing the first choice. I see it in the same vein as scoping exits at a movie theater. The chances of me being in a fire is also vanishingly small

[struggle4progress]

183. There were 20 or fewer mass shootings in the US in 2012, killing less than 90 people and injuring

about 60 more

Real people really suffer from this, so we ought to do everything possible to reduce such events

But the statistics don't suggest anybody in particular should be worrying about such events: there are 316 million people in the US, so your actual chance of being killed by a deranged mass-shooter is only about one in 3.5 million. You're a hundred times more likely to be the victim of a firearms homicide that is not a mass-shooting and about three hundred fifty times more likely to die from a gunshot not associated with a mass-shooting.

Your actual chance of being injured but not killed by a deranged mass-shooter is only about one in 3.5 million

So your actual chance of being injured but killed by a deranged mass-shooter is less than one in 5 million. You're more than a thousand times more likely to be non-fatally injured by gunshot not associated with a mass-shooting

[arely staircase]

184. I have seen two shootings.

Once in New Jersey in 1988 and the second (more of a shoot-out) was in Mexico where two small groups of armed men exchanged gunfire in a plaza below my balcony in 2007. Both times my response was basically the same. At first a frozen cognitive dissonance in which time stands still then a "holy shit!" awareness, then fleeing on foot in the first instance and moving away from the window and getting on the floor of my hotel with the bed between me and the window in the second case.

[ancianita]

232. So true that time stands still.

[arely staircase]

248. more like just becomes indiscernable in retrospect. in either instance

I cant say whether I stood and watched for a minute or a couple of seconds. It is more like am I seeing what I think I am seeing? and then fuck yeah I am. I am 45 and seen have seen a shooting every 20 years or so. So with good health I will probably see a couple .

[ancianita]

250. Wow. I'm twenty years older, so I'm done, I guess.

I think that, in my latest "encounter," if I'd yelled or screamed or anything dramatic, they might have shot me. I don't know. All I can visualize is that gun within four inches of my chest. I could see the brass trim on the bullet hole and the etched design of the barrel and the assailant's voice. Weird, I know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. Yes, hubby and I have had that conversation

among many.

[Deep13]

202. Situationally specific.

In all likelihood, I'd be dead on the floor before I knew what was going on. Otherwise, hiding seems like a good idea.

[Hayabusa]

203. How would I know what my flight or fight instinct would do?

I hope it choose flight...

[deutsey]

204. As someone who has practiced martial arts for over a decade

I would hope to draw from that training (which combines physical and mental conditioning) to respond to such a situation.

That doesn't mean I would survive or prevent a massacre, but I would draw from that training to help me do whatever I could in those moments to stop the assailant.

[Hoyt]

207. And you would probably do better than some yahoo packing a gun.

70 year old lady stopped Loughner.

[tabasco]

209. Cowards living in fear

What a sad life.

[ScreamingMeemie]

219. Who? Many of us (a good deal many of us) have said we don't pause to think

about it...

So...? Who are the cowards again??

[Peacetrain]

210. Pass out..

no doubt in my mind..

[Kaleva]

211. Run if I can

Hide if I can't run.

[ancianita]

220. Holy shit. I can't believe you've brought this up. I was held up at gunpoint last week.

It was behind my house. I was about to have a smoke in my husband's Prius when two kids who I'd watched just walking down our private street just tapped on the window, asking if I had a lighter. I opened the door, saying "Sure!"and handed the tall, skinny one my lighter. He turned to the fat kid and said, "Get it." The fat kid, who I thought was reaching across his jacket to get a pack of cigs out of his pocket, suddenly pointed an automatic at me. The tall skinny kid ordered me out of the car, demanding my keys.

I'm all like, "Oh come on, seriously? You don't have to this..."

"Gimme your keys..."

Raising my hands up in a shrug, "I don't have any."

"You're lying gimme the keys."

"Really I don't have any my husband just opens the car so I can come out and smoke whenever... I'm just an old lady having a smoke, please don't do this to people I'm a teacher in the area..." just talking and talking.

As soon as I said I'm a teacher in the area, they looked at each other and turned to walk away.

I said, as they were walking, "Can I have my lighter back?"

And you know what? The tall skinny kid who'd done all the talking gave me my lighter back! I kept a safe distance as they moved out of sight, pulling out my iphone and calling the university police near us. Within 15 minutes they had pulled the two off a bus, came back, picked me up to make an ID, and the rest is detective interviews, signing charges and now I'm on my way to two trials. The skinny kid is charged as an adult and the fat kid with the gun is charged as a juvenile with "Aggravated assault with intent to hijack a motor vehicle," with each being additionally charged with "Illegal possession of a firearm." The officer who took the gun off the fat kid later told me that it was a 40 mm glock -- loaded. I knew it was an automatic because I was staring at it the whole time I was talking to them. But even after he pointed out the reality of the danger, I still wasn't shaken. I signed the charges delivered from the states attorneys' office at 12 midnight that same night. The 17 year-old skinny kid, charged as an adult, is still in jail on a $75,000 bond,and the fat kid, charged as a juvenile, is still in juvenile detention.

I still am not sure how I did it, or why I kept running my mouth. But they were high school kids, and since I've taught high school kids for 34 years, I must have just talked to them the way I'd have talked to kids doing something kinda stupid. Or maybe they just didn't want to touch me and go through my pockets. I lied. I did have the car keys. The officers and detectives have marvelled about it, and I myself still haven't had any PTSD over it. So, all I can say is, one never really knows how one might react. The police told me that in the hundreds of similar cases, almost all people just quickly empty their pockets, piss their pants and freeze.

There's a lot more but that's the gist of how I was held up and beat down a bad thing. It could have gone some other way, but I'll never know.

[ancianita]

246. Y'all having a "what if" party? Sorry, I thought this was a serious OP.This really did happen to me.

[petronius]

257. I'm very glad you're OK, and it sounds like you did the exact right thing

all the way through. As you point out, nobody really knows what s/he'd do in such a situation.

Is there any concern that they might have angry friends, and have you talked to the police about whether you might be at risk?

[ancianita]

258. Thank you for your concern!Yes, I've seen the two 6'3" men who showed up at the 'adult' assailant's

Probable Cause hearing two days ago, and the thought occurred to me that I might be at risk. One of the several detectives on the case told me that they're unlikely to retaliate, but one never knows, does one. I'm going south for the winter soon, so if they decide to come around, they won't find me here until next June. That gives me some consolation.

The other reality is that one of the men was the assailant's father, whose gun it was that the kid had taken from their house. Police said he would have torn that kid up if they hadn't been in the room when the parents showed up. So, maybe there's more conscience about this whole mess, and a desire to get through it with no further complication from family or friends. The tall girl -- sister? girlfriend? not sure -- with the two big men was crying, so I'm sure this has hurt the family, and trust that they will continue to forge ahead to see him through this with some positive support.

I have a feeling that these kids just thought they could get a quick steal and, according to the police, use it to hold up others. They didn't seem to want to exert themselves physically, just get a car. There had been a series of holdups in the area in the previous weeks, so perhaps this is the end of a spree. It's hard to tell. But the police said that if I'd given in to them, other people would have been held up and perhaps killed. So, sorry as I feel for the kids, I think I did a good thing by pressing charges. And the police work was lightning fast and brilliantly handled.

[Initech]

225. In reality? Something like this:

[DefenseLawyer]

235. I have a Wild Wild West style derringer up my sleave

I would use it to shoot the gun out of his hand. Then escape in a hot air balloon.

[TheCowsCameHome]

240. And if it ricochets off him and pops the balloon?

You definitely need a plan B.

[nadinbrzezinski]

242. This is what this is for

http://www.beastsofwar.com/empire-of-the-dead/mount-exoskeleton-suit-empire-dead/

[DefenseLawyer]

243. I travel with Artemus Gordon

he's always there to help me out in a pinch.

[Squinch]

247. I had the experience of being in a closed courtyard while some loon shot down from an

apartment window.

You jump to the closest shelter you can find (in my case, a doorway), and stay there.

And here I am.

[Hoyt]

251. Glad you are posting, after that.

[Squinch]

255. Me too.

[PeteSelman]

249. Self preservation is the first rule.

If I was alone I do whatever is possible to save myself. If I'm with my family I do whatever I can to make them safe and then worry about myself.

[mahina]

252. Have been.

[donco]

263. "What would you do? "

Probably refer him to a troll thread on a internet forum.

[TeamPooka]

280. As I repel down from the roof using a fire hose as a rope and swing in through the glass window that

I just shot out using the terrorists machine I took off his dead body I think to myself
"Sure, come out to the coast, have a few laughs..."
Yippee ki yay.

[loli phabay]

281. confront and engage, not much choice in the matter

When someone actively starts to go on a spree then at least if you engage them even if you dont drop them they are shooting at you rather than kids etc. Its not a situation you ever want to be in.

[AgainsttheCrown]

284. This is what HSA is now pushing