Fewer men are paying for sex, survey suggests

[Jesus Malverde]

Could the oldest profession be losing its customers?

Fewer men say they have ever paid for sex — or been paid for it — than a few decades ago, according to a nationally representative survey. But scholars and activists are divided over whether men are really turning away from prostitution, or just becoming less likely to admit to it.

In a string of surveys between 1991 and 1996, nearly 17% of men said they had ever paid for or received payment for sex; that fell to 13.2% between 2006 and 2012. Last year, that number hit the lowest point since the question was first asked — 9.1% — though statisticians caution the unusually small number could be a fluke.

The survey drew no distinction between buying and selling sex, but men are widely assumed to be customers far more often than they are sellers.

The numbers seem to be shifting with the generations: Older men are much more likely to say they have bought or sold sex at some point in their lives. Younger men, in turn, have been less likely to report doing so than men of the same ages a few decades ago.

The numbers come from the General Social Survey, a project of the independent research organization NORC at the University of Chicago meant to track changes in American society.

The sweeping survey, funded principally by the National Science Foundation, has questioned more than 57,000 Americans since 1972. Nearly 11,000 men have answered the question about paying or being paid for sex since it was first asked in 1991.

Experts say there are trends that could be turning more men away from prostitution, including new technology and looser sexual mores.

If fewer men are paying for sex, "it's because they don't have to," said Christine Milrod, an independent researcher and sex therapist based in Los Angeles. "They can have sex for free."

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-paying-for-sex-20131102,0,796675.story#axzz2jh1mitT3

[1000words]

1. It aint easy out there ... what's a pimp to do?

[Kelvin Mace]

2. Pretty pathetic when you have to pay someone to have sex with you

Just sayin'...

[dlwickham]

3. actually it's not when you think about it

you want to have sex on your terms without the whole song and dance of dating someone if you're single

you might like some things that your regular partner doesn't like

there are numerous reasons for paying someone to have sex with you that has nothing to do with not being able to get it for free

[bluestate10]

6. You're correct. nt

[geek tragedy]

7. Yes, it allows them to avoid having to treat the other person like a human being nt

[1000words]

10. Plenty of folks in "committed" relationships treating each other like shit

[geek tragedy]

11. Obviously that is bad. nt

[1000words]

13. Indeed.

It also undermines your correlation regarding prostitution and dehumanizing behavior.

[JI7]

23. no it doesn't , one is dehumanizing in itself

[geek tragedy]

47. Prostitution is inherently that way relationships aren't nt

[bluestate10]

139. If a man or woman freely choses to sell sex, how is that "inherently"

dehumanizing? You have a tendency to paint with a broad brush and don't explain anything. I don't disagree that selling sex doesn't involve economics and if we did a better job with the social safety net and funding education we could seriously reduce prostitution, even by those that one wouldn't suspect are selling their affections.

But because you tend to paint with a broad brush the task of eliminating human trafficking for sex become harder because people like you would have police resources going after the male of female Masters or Doctoral candidate that is freely selling sex to pay for education and housing instead of going after pimps that are forcibly holding women and girls against their will and forcing them to sell sex. You likely don't see a difference between the two situations, that is a societal problem, IMO.

[seabeyond]

143. because simply, the vast majority are not "freely", they are desperate. and desperate is being used

to use another human being.

[seabeyond]

161. 78-92% of prostitute were raped as children. yes. and these are the people being used. so making

lite of the situation is either ill informed or simply uncaring in a self absorbed manner.

[seabeyond]

174. really, you talk about the vast majority in desperate situation being used in an ugly manner

or bottom line being sex slaves with no freedom at all forced to commit acts that they have no desire to do and you are wanting to talk about the privileged minority?

really?

that is your position?

in honesty and intellectualism?

[uppityperson]

177. Do we have a right to limit pimps from forcing women into sexual slavery?

[uppityperson]

180. uh. huh.

[seabeyond]

184. yes. legalize prostitution. make it illegal to buy and pimp. works for sweden and other

countries where legalization of prostitution falied and sex slavery and child sex slavery escalated to try to meet the demand. cause there just were not enough women to meet the demand. so they had to kidnap and import women and children to be used.

[1000words]

188. I know a woman in the "industry" and she does very well.

Middle class upbringing. Sober, smart as a whip and very empowered. She proudly calls herself a feminist.

[1000words]

199. That's why it should be legal and regulated

Would clean the industry up considerably. The Dutch model, while not perfect, proves it is the more humane, healthier strategy.

[seabeyond]

216. you know about the dutch model, right? that would be prostitution is legal. the jon and pimp go to

jail

you get that, right?

they legalized in 1990's. sex slave trade escalated out of control. early 2000, 2002 i believe, they changed it up. prostitutes do not go to jail. the jon and pimp do.

prostitution was reduced by 47%

[1000words]

219. Precisely why I used it as a viable model

The context of our discussion was that of health and safety of the workers.

[seabeyond]

226. then you are for the pimp and jon going to jail? i am glad you are informed. thanks. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

233. She's referring to the Swedish, not Dutch, model

which criminalized only buyers and pimping, and has failed in a horrific manner completely contrary to all the hype it's received. The trade's been pushed underground, workers have been complaining about increased violence and less safety since the law took effect, and both prostitution and trafficking have increased:

http://feministire.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/swedish-police-stats-show-more-not-less-prostitution-and-trafficking/

The table’s title, in English, is “number of reported cases 2008-2010 and percentage change”. The text translates as follows:

Pimping and aggravated procuring
Human trafficking for sexual purposes, total
Human trafficking for sexual purposes with person over 18 years
Human trafficking for sexual purposes with person under 18 years
Human trafficking for other purposes, total
Human trafficking for other purposes with person over 18 years
Human trafficking for other purposes with person under 18 years
Purchase of sexual services
Purchase of sexual acts by children

Legalize and regulate.

[1000words]

239. Ah ... The Dutch have tweaked their system, as well. I took the poster's data at face value.

In the end, it is a system where its workers have rights and are protected like any other profession. They have a union, for Pete's sake. That is the spirit in which the entire sex industry should be addressed.

[seabeyond]

250. this is an article that totally counters what is said.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/why-the-games-up-for-swedens-sex-trade-8548854.html

All of that's changed dramatically since the law came into effect. "The main change I can see when I look back is we got the men on board," says Wahlberg. "The problem is gender-specific. Men buy women. One of the keys is to train police officers. When they have understood the background, they get the picture." She talks about why women end up in prostitution, citing research that shows a history of childhood sexual abuse, compounded by problems with drugs and alcohol.

"They have no confidence in themselves. They've been left out and neglected and try to get all kinds of attention. This is not about an adult woman's choice." In the 1990s, the Swedish government accepted the arguments of women's groups that prostitution is a barrier to gender equality and a form of violence against women.

What's remarkable is that public opinion, which was initially hostile, has swung round to this view; these days, 70 per cent of the public support the law. "We've changed the mindset of the Swedish population," Haggstrom tells me. The change is visible among the older members of his unit.

Swedish crime statistics seem to support his argument. In 2011, only two people were convicted of sex trafficking and another 11 for pimping connected to trafficking. (At the same time, 450 men were convicted and fined for buying sex, including a number of foreign tourists). Last year the figures were slightly higher: three convictions for sex trafficking and 32 for the related offence. But 40 women, mostly from Romania, had sufficient confidence in the Swedish criminal justice system to testify against the men exploiting them

Could the Swedish law work in other countries? Norway and Iceland have brought in laws banning the purchase of sex and the UK has taken tentative steps towards criminalising clients; it's already a criminal offence to buy sex from anyone under the age of 18 or an adult who's being exploited by pimps or traffickers. But there have been few convictions, suggesting that British police officers don't share the robust attitudes of their Swedish counterparts. Haggstrom agrees with Wahlberg that legislation on its own isn't enough: "You have to have enforcement resources. You have to have police officers who go out and make arrest

[LadyHawkAZ]

253. It's what a lot of workers want- basic human rights like any other job.

I would have given much for a setup like Pascha in Germany when I was working.

A lot of people prefer the hype to the facts when sex is involved, though.

The UN is now advocating decriminalization because of health concerns, which I find heartening.

[1000words]

214. Good question

[MADem]

351. Looks like that loser took a trip to Tombstone....hope he enjoys his pizza. nt

[seabeyond]

181. you might educate yourself. cause there are a lot of hurt, desperate woman out there, and you post

is of privilege, entitlement. what causes these women so much pain and allows them to be used, kidnapped and sold and all kinds of horrible acts committed on them.

[seabeyond]

197. who are you?

[seabeyond]

224. you say the majority of prostitutes are desperate or sex slaves or .... but what about the few

privileged. i do not generally get into this discussion. this thread was more pathetically funny than serious. then it became more serious. i should have walked. been down this road too may times. people that appear interested are more interested in ignoring the facts to hold onto their own agenda.

the countries that legalized all have a huge issue with child sex slaves and women sex slaves. it escalated the situation. because it is legal, the cops have a very hard time getting to the criminals. and it has not made the womens lives easier. they still have their pimps and still are abused. if you think that makes it easier for women to go to the cops, you obviously are clueless to the dynamics of these relationships. the women are always in the subservient role.

but lets just say there are some women thrilled with their choice. fine. i do not care. we all have free choice. it is not about them that i have an iota of concern. it is about the millions of children, and women that are desperate, or are forced into the role that i am concerned about.

sweden legalized. they had a horrible escalation in child and women sex slaves. all the countries that legalized did. early 2000 sweden changed it to prostiution is legal, so prostitutes are not hassled, can get care and go to police, and jons and pimps are arrested.

that brought the sex crimes more in control

prostitution dropped 47%

so, if we are going to discuss the legalization, then i ask people at least know what they are talking about.

the other countries are looking toward sweden. some have adopted their stance. others are looking to do the same.

we say legalize as if it will make things all better. history shows us it does not. it even makes things worse.

so hearing you say that you think the majority of prostitutes are in a bad position, desperate yet ignore them for the few, and then say legalize, when clearly you do not research what legalization has accomplished, then ya... i have to wonder.

you seem awfully familiar.

[Major Nikon]

467. The "47%" figure is garbage

The "47%" figure only concerned street prostitution, not overall prostitution. Even the Swedish government admits they can't accurately measure indoor prostitution:

When it comes to indoor prostitution in which contact is made at restaurants, hotels, sex clubs or massage parlors, the available information on the extent to which this occurs is limited. We have not been able to find any in-depth studies of these forms of prostitution in the past decade.
The 2010 official evaluation

Even the Swedish government (who has been disingenuous about the actual effects of the law) admits street level prostitution is back to about 2/3rds of it's original levels and increasing:

The overall picture emerging from the interviews is that the sex trade virtually disappeared from the street during a brief period immediately after the law went into effect. It later returned, albeit to a lesser extent. For instance, representatives of the Stockholm Prostitution Centre say that prostitution initially vanished from the streets when the law was passed, only to later return at about half the former extent. Now about two thirds of street prostitution is back, compared to the situation before the law against purchasing sexual services went into effect.
...
It is also difficult to discern any clear trend of development: has the extent of prostitution increased or decreased? We cannot give any unambiguous answer to that question. At most, we can discern that street prostitution is slowly
returning, after swiftly disappearing in the wake of the law against purchasing sexual services. But as said, that refers to street prostitution, which is the most obvious manifestation. With regard to increases and decreases in other areas of prostitution – the “hidden prostitution” – we are even less able to make any statements.

The National Board of Health and Welfare

The "47%" figure was dubious to begin with. Nobody knew what the levels of street prostitution were prior to the law going into effect. Furthermore due to the internet street level prostitution is in decline virtually everywhere, so it's actually more likely that the Swedish law had absolutely no permanent effect on street level prostitution at all other than to drive it farther underground where problems like the ones you mentioned are simply exacerbated. This should come as no surprise really. The Swedish law was written with input from people like Sheila Jeffreys, not the actual prostitutes themselves whose input was specifically rejected when the law was being drafted.

I do agree with you on one thing. If one wants to discuss legalization, it is a good idea to know what one is talking about, but this is true for just about any substantive discussion.

Cheers!

[BlueJazz]

241. I agree 100 percent

[geek tragedy]

193. what percent of the prostituted women out there are graduate students paying for tuition?

How does that number compare to those who are in the trade because they have no choice? How does it compare to those who got into it out of desperation, out of exploitation, out of de facto coersion?

I oppose prosecuting prostituted women and men. Johns and pimps, throw the book at 'em.

[marions ghost]

356. Somebody should have to sell their body for education and housing

and that is OK? Sounds like a Rethuglican social solution.

[JI7]

9. many people have sex without any other commitment without paying for it

[Kelvin Mace]

50. Again, masturbation is a more sanitary option

The world is full of people with every kink imaginable. If you cannot find someone who shares your particular taste you are not trying very hard.

Upon reflection I can think of a few cases where a person might have genuine cause to pay for sex (the recent movie with Helen Hunt whose name escapes me comes to mind). But these are rare.

Whenever I hear men discussing paying for sex in some physical form, I hear this kind of justification:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3977169

or some variation on the theme.

Rule 34 and the Laws of Thermodynamics are pretty much etched in stone.

[bluestate10]

144. The poster was pointing out that some people chose not to try to find

a relationship. There are many reasons why a person buys sex, sometimes it is because the person is a loser, in other cases the situation has nothing to do with whether a person can get a date or not.

[LanternWaste]

120. Many others do though, regardless of how one rationalizes it..

So you don't think it's pathetic. Many others do though, regardless of how one rationalizes it...

[seabeyond]

127. yes. i wont be told that i am not allowed to see, how pathetic the person is that pays to use

anothers body. without conscious, thought or consideration to what the person goes thru with each act against her body.

yes.

[bluestate10]

5. A lot of successful people chose to buy sex instead of date or get married.

That area of human existence is complicated that a one size fits all assertion like yours doesn't come remotely close to grasping.

[Kelvin Mace]

37. I stand by the statement

You have to be a pathetic human being if your personality is such that you cannot have a relationship with a person. Well, actually, I stand corrected, a person paying for sex is either pathetic or a sociopath. Paying to use someone's body as a sperm receptacle is just pathetic and sad, or creepy and dangerous.

I am for legalizing prostitution by the way. Sex workers need to be brought in from the cold.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

104. OMG! LMAO!!!

Please make more statements

[1000words]

107. This thread has me in stitches, too

I've shared it with several European friends. Their responses are almost as good as the comedy gold here.

[Kelvin Mace]

119. Always nice to make someone laugh

whatever the reason...

[bluestate10]

150. Your mind is frozen in the mode that the seller is an unwilling

participant. That assumption is inherently shortsighted and shows a lack of understanding of the issue of prostitution. I could care less whether you say you support making prostitution legal, your mindset says that you view all aspects of it as sad. I don't support legalizing prostitution and won't support it until I am clear that officials can effectively deal with the issue of sexual slavery where people are held against their will and forced to prostitute.

[LittleBlue]

20. You aren't necessarily paying for the sex

You're paying them to go away and be discreet about it.

Many of these guys have wives. If they got a girlfriend, she'd obviously want him to leave his wife for her. For the men who want to have extramarital sex without ending their families, escorts are the only option.

[Kelvin Mace]

30. No, masturbation is the option

More sanitary, doesn't involve lawyers.



I think your statement would be a bit more accurate as "They are not JUST paying for sex..." because they damned sure are paying for sex.

And it is still pathetic.

[jberryhill]

35. Masturbation doesn't always involve lawyers

Unless the lawyer is his own client

[bluestate10]

159. Masturbation would also solve world over population too. How is that

working out for you? May be you should slow up and understand with "not just" can mean. To me it affirms a reality, people paying for sex, but points out WHY that may be happening. You chose to ignore the why and impose your own viewpoint.

[Kelvin Mace]

213. I understand perfectly well what "not just" means

Regardless, they are still paying for sex and it is still sad/creepy in my view.

[Warren DeMontague]

477. Call me crazy, but I'm not sure masturbation needs any PR.

I think pretty much everyone who wants to do it, has figured it out by now.

[bluestate10]

153. You made a correct observation. Don't expect it to go over with some of

the people in this OP. To them, a married person who is not sexually satisfied at home is a loser for buying sex outside the home. They view sex with an escort as somehow dangerous, but don't view a man or woman picking up a stranger in a bar or at the office as dangerous. Some of the views being expressed are archaic at best, and some of the people swear on God's oath that they support legalizing prostitution.

[seabeyond]

163. yes. a man that pays to use a womans body as a cum receptor is a loser. correct. married or

otherwise. loser.

[LittleBlue]

207. It's like the Rick Santorum forum meets DU

in every thread about sex. People who are normally liberal hear the word "sex", "porn" or "prostitution", and suddenly DU becomes a 1950s morality horror show.

Even the Catholic priests at my grade school weren't this bad. At least it provides some popcorn material for passing the hours in the airport.

[seabeyond]

230. right, cause being concerned for our women and children, not so much the mans entitlement, makes

us just like the rw.

brilliant.

[LittleBlue]

234. This is the 21st century

There is a casual hookups section on craigslist. Aps exist for people to randomly meet and have sex.

The only difference between that and prostitution is that the prostitute wants the money and not the sex.

[seabeyond]

236. wtf??? what does that have to do with your accusation and my reply?

[LittleBlue]

243. I'm not looking to convince you

Just express my thoughts on the subject.

I might find your argument convincing if not for the pornography hysteria. That strikes me as deeply prudish, beyond any rational concern for others. For that group on DU, it's ideological because they find it morally offensive, just like the megachurch crowd.

[seabeyond]

252. ah, hysteria, prudish, beyond rational. anymore little sexist jabs as you are proving just how

nonsexist you are?

can you be more trite.

[redqueen]

256. I thought the conflation of random hookups by mutual consent with coersion by financial means

was rather amusing.

[seabeyond]

260. and if that fails, just throw out a bunch of sexist slurs and bring up a whole new topic. lol. nt

[LittleBlue]

266. I'm coerced into going to work every day

by the alternative: being homeless, going hungry and losing everything.

Virtually all of us work jobs we'd rather not with the coercive factor of money.

[redqueen]

271. Do you get raped at work?

Beaten?

The women whose bodies are rented for use as masturbatory aids very often end up with PTSD from their "work".

I bet you already know how punters talk about the women they rent. Just in case you don't: http://the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/ (STRONG trigger warning, NSFW)

[LittleBlue]

278. I don't because I'm fortunate enough to not make that decision

So I was spared rape, death, disfigurement etc in jobs like prostitution, mining, fishing, oil rig work, military work, private contractor security, etc.

All of those jobs are ridiculously unsafe. Nevertheless, someone will choose to work them, and it should be their choice. Many are coerced by the lure of far more money than they could make elsewhere.

[redqueen]

282. In those other, legitimate jobs, it is accidents which cause the injuries.

It isn't because your boss suddenly decides he wants to slap you, choke you, punch you, kick you, suffocate you on his body parts, etc.

The only comparison that comes close is in Dubai, where people are literally enslaved and forced to live in horrific conditions. And even those people aren't tortured simply for their bosses' sexual kicks.

[LittleBlue]

287. The epidemic of rape in the military is an accident?

We know that rape is largely accepted in the military, they are told by their commanders to shut up and the rapist gets away. The last mining disaster (Upper Big Branch) was no accident, it occurred because the owner didn't give a shit about worker safety. A conclusion that was reached by government investigators. This distinction is bogus.

Red, seriously, the alternative for these women is a McJob. If you really want these women to be safe, support legalization and regulation so that

1) Sex workers can report rape and assault without fear of arrest and
2) It can be overseen by a regulatory body to prevent abuse

The above is the only logical thing to do. Making sex work illegal is a medieval, moralistic approach that western European countries are abandoning as ineffective.



Red = illegal, blue/green = legal

[redqueen]

289. Yes, thank you, that is one I forgot. The military is the closest comparison.

And no, criminalizing sex work is not the answer. Criminalizeling the buying of sex is.

Earlier today someone posted an article about the best places to live for women. Several of those countries use this Nordic model. It works because it forces people to stop seeing women as sex objects.

[LittleBlue]

262. The right-wingers cite God, my soul will be damned

They would accuse me of being part of a moral decay.

You cite language and accuse me of sexism.

Meh. Two sides of the same coin, each with "concerns" but ultimately the same goal of controlling and modifying the behavior of other consenting adults.

[seabeyond]

263. ah, back to original topic? k. concerned with women and children, not male entitlement is rw, how?

[alarimer]

349. If you have issues in your relationship, you deal with them like an adult

And either choose to work on it (which means not fucking around behind their back) or end the relationship.

Cheating is abhorrent behavior.

[pintobean]

38. Such broad brush generalizations are pathetic.

Your statement appears to be about you. It shows a total lack of empathy.

Just sayin'...

[Kelvin Mace]

48. Uh, no

My experiences over 30+ years of men who have discussed paying for physical sex in some manner (prostitution, strip bars, etc) has been that they are either misogynistic assholes or pathetic losers who also had a pretty thick streak of misogyny.

They have pretty uniformly made my skin crawl.

To be fair, there is probably some extremely small exceptions to this view, but they are infrequent enough that I haven't met one in years of being around thousands of men in various jobs and extra-curricular activities.

Perhaps you could outline a scenario? (And no, that was not a dig or accusation, I am genuinely curious).

[pintobean]

55. A scenario?

How about - it's none of your, or my, business what consenting adults do, or why they do it. Your skin crawling is only a concern to you.

[Kelvin Mace]

82. I never said anything to the contrary

but I do get to express an opinion and cite examples to back it up. You stated an opinion, and I asked for an example that makes your point. and suddenly you don't want to continue the conversation.

Cool.

[bluestate10]

167. So you knew men over 30+ years who solicited prostitutes? That is an astounding

level of access. Please tell, that should be juicy. I have known only TWO people in my entire life who had sex for money, neither were assholes, one was married, the other deeply involved in his career. And I only found out in those cases because both were business associates and I caught them red handed while on business trips. Now, if you have witnessed 30+ years of men soliciting, either you have incredible presence of mind, or there is something that you don't want to write about.

[Kelvin Mace]

211. I said "paid for sex"

Last edited Tue Nov 5, 2013, 02:04 PM - Edit history (1)

that would include strippers. If you have to pay to see a naked woman, then that is pretty sad.


And yes, I listened to the insipid juvenile bragging and posturing for years.

[EOTE]

318. Strippers don't provide sex. They provide nudity.

If they provide sex, they're also a prostitute.

[Kelvin Mace]

342. And men only go to strip clubs to appreciate

the aesthetics of the female form, not to get aroused.

Right....

[EOTE]

344. Of course they get aroused.

They are men, after all. It's the appreciation of aesthetics that leads to that arousal. But once again, strippers don't provide sex. That's the job of a prostitute. This really isn't all that difficult to figure out.

[Kelvin Mace]

346. What are lapdances then?

I am told they are all the rage these days...

Not buying it.

"Excuse me my good woman, would you please come over here and show me your breasts and vagina in exchange for these banknotes which I am proffering?!

Seriously, with all the porn that is available free of charge, someone is going to blow a couple of hundred dollars just to look at a woman naked?

Sad AND financially unwise.

[EOTE]

347. A woman grinding on a man's lap?

But not sex as no intercourse is involved. Of course, some strippers are more likely to skirt the law than others, but once again, that comes back to prostitutes providing sex, not strippers. This really isn't all that complicated.

[Kelvin Mace]

352. Ah, so you define sex only as intercourse

Got it.

[EOTE]

353. As do most dictionaries.

You seem to define sex as men ogling women. No dictionaries have that as the definition of sex. Got it.

[Kelvin Mace]

354. Gosh the very FIRST dictionary I go to

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sex

: physical activity in which people touch each other's bodies, kiss each other, etc.

That would include dry-humping which is what a lap dance actually is.

: sexually motivated phenomena or behavior

I don't have my OED handy, but as I recall it had an equally broad definition of sex.

[EOTE]

355. Ahh, so kissing is sex.

Funny how you cut off the most important part of your definition:
physical activity that is related to and often includes sexual intercourse.

No one considers kissing alone to be sex. Now you're just acting foolish. It's not my fault you're incapable of reading fully. Learn some logic and get back to me.

[Kelvin Mace]

358. If sexually motivated, yes it is

Also, the definition I cited had two separate clauses:

: physical activity in which people touch each other's bodies, kiss each other, etc. : physical activity that is related to and often includes sexual intercourse

In a dictionary, the ":" is treated as "or", thus...

: physical activity in which people touch each other's bodies, kiss each other, etc.

or

: physical activity that is related to and often includes sexual intercourse

or

The definition you ignored:

: sexually motivated phenomena or behavior

You invoked the dictionary as an authority. I am happy to admit that it supports your definition of "sex", but it also supports mine.

[EOTE]

359. So your definition is tautological and therefore worthless

You're saying that sex is physical contact related to sex. No shit Sherlock. Unfortunately, that definition is as worthless as everything else you've provided. You provided the first definition as your definition of sex. That means that you think that men who pay for massages are pathetic. That makes you a few steps lower than pathetic, IMO.

[Kelvin Mace]

364. Again, you cited the dictionary as an authority

on the definition of sex, then didn't like the fact that the dictionary listed a definition that agreed with mine.

: sexually motivated phenomena or behavior

That would include lap dances, watching strippers, and any SEXUALLY MOTIVATED behaviour.

And yes, men who pay for massages with "happy endings" or specifically to get a woman (or man depending on your preference) to touch them intimately are pretty sad.

[EOTE]

365. You provided your own definition.

The definition you provided from the dictionary was conveniently edited by you. But again, you've provided your own definition which, as I've said before, is utterly worthless. I'm not talking about "happy endings" that was crafted in your own little mind. I'm talking about run of the mill massages which I'm sure you'd agree constitute "physical activity in which people touch each other's bodies", correct? You are the one who provided that definition and again, you said that men who pay for such a thing are pathetic. And again, I think your incredibly judgemental world view makes you quite a few steps below pathetic.

[Kelvin Mace]

366. I didn't invent the dictionary entry

It is listed as a definition for sex:

: sexually motivated phenomena or behavior

Paying for sex would be a "sexually motivated" behavior. Paying to see a naked woman in order to be sexually aroused would be "sexually motivated" behavior. Paying a woman to grind her genitals against yours would be "sexually motivated" behavior. Getting a massage to help a bad back, or part of physical therapy is NOT "sexually motivated" behavior. Paying for a massage to get someone to touch you intimately is "sexually motivated" behavior.

You seem most concerned by what I think and whether I am being judgmental. This is my opinion. I have made various assertions and consulted a dictionary at your behest to determine the meaning of "sex. The dictionary favors both our views. But in the end it is still just my opinion, and that and $5 will get you a Value Meal at McDonalds.

Hey, do whatever floats your boat, I am not advocating for laws against it, in fact I am in favor of laws legalizing the sex trade. As long as I favor making the practice legal, and would vote that way on the issue, what do you care about my personal judgment?

[EOTE]

367. Well again, you either are calling the millions of people who have had massages pathetic...

Or you're unable to keep track of your own foolishness. I think both of those statements speak very poorly of you. I don't need to think very hard in order to determine that you're judgemental. Anyone here with more than a few brain cells to rub together can determine that. I just like pointing out the hypocrisy and foolishness of such judgemental people. And as for your last question, why would ANYONE care about someone else's personal judgements? I do it to point out how those who tend to throw the most stones are the ones who are loaded with the most faults which should genuinely be addressed.

[seabeyond]

368. intent of a massage is to get you aroused? eeek. glad i am not your masseuse.

[EOTE]

369. I said nothing about getting aroused.

That was all in your silly little head.

[Kelvin Mace]

376. Oops,

replied to wrong post.

[EOTE]

379. Yeah, I get touchy whenever I see idiots making broad brush statements

denigrating huge swaths of people with little or no reasoning behind it, just prudishness and hypocrisy. I call out hypocrites and idiots whenever I see them and I'll continue to do so regardless of who they're judging.

[Kelvin Mace]

373. To answer your question:

"{W}hy would ANYONE care about someone else's personal judgements?"

I don't now, you may want to ask that question to your mirror.

Good afternoon, sir.

[EOTE]

375. You didn't answer my question, you didn't even attempt to answer my question.

Which is beyond ignorant because I answered my own question. You must have missed that, but I'll post it again for you "I do it to point out how those who tend to throw the most stones are the ones who are loaded with the most faults which should genuinely be addressed. " You are incredibly bad at this.

[Kelvin Mace]

377. I said,

GOOD AFTERNOON, sir.

[EOTE]

378. Yeah, I heard that part. What I didn't hear was any attempt to provide anything even remotely

informative. You rephrased my own question and pointed it back at me even though I had clearly answered it before. That is the action of someone who is not quite familiar with logical thought. It's never too long before judgemental idiots are exposed for what they are. It's so much fun taking part in that process.

[Marr]

322. Have you ever been to a burlesque show?

I think your definition of "paying for sex" here is ridiculously broad.

If any sort of art is to be dismissed as "paying for sex" simply because it involves titillation, then you'll have to throw a whole bunch of painters and sculptors and writers into the pot as well.

[redqueen]

330. Ugh, burlesque. Privileged middle-class women dipping a toe in the sex industry.

So offensive.

[Marr]

370. What's offensive is your casual bigotry. /nt

[redqueen]

374. LMAO, bigotry? What are you talking about?

Because I call out the practice of middle class women who choose to dip their privileged toes into the sex industry while fueling patriarchal beauty standards as offensive, I'm a bigot?

thanks! I needed that laugh!

[EOTE]

380. You said nothing about patriarchy, just the "Privileged middle-class women dipping a toe in the sex

industry." So awful because they're middle-class women, UGH! But I'm glad that you got in your obligatory reference to the patriarchy, I get a little concerned when you go more than a post without mentioning it. Bigotry takes all types.

[BainsBane]

405. Right, because what could patriarchy possibly have to do

with a discussion about men's paying for sex, the subject of the OP?

[EOTE]

434. Again, she said nothing about the patriarchy (although I'm sure that would have been a hoot).

Just her disgust that, GASP, privileged middle-class women participate! Of course, she should have thought of the patriarchy as that's the answer to any social issue, but for a minute the poster got her bigotry confused.

[Marr]

382. Your dislike is about as reality based as a some Klansman's rants about minorities.

You're comfortable expressing your dislike for people you don't know, based on nothing but your own easy, hateful assumptions. Bigotry is the word.

[redqueen]

383. No, it isn't. Words have meanings.

Comparing me to a Klansman? Fucking really?

I said nothing about disliking people. No idea where that little delusion sprang from.

I'm criticizing THE PRACTICE of MOSTLY white, middle-class women having a little fun in a sex industry which they are privileged enough to enjoy without any of the baggage that working class women have to deal with. You know, the women who enter the sex industry TO SURVIVE... not for a little racy fun on the weekends. Not for shits and giggles.

Kinda like white girls twerking and saying "ratchet" then going back to enjoy their white privilege.

I'm not white. BTW. I'm mixed race. I hope you enjoyed your little "Klansman" dig.

Stay classy. You're in super awesome company on this thread.

[Marr]

385. There are dictionaries available online if you don't own one.

Again, bigotry is the right word-- and the comparison was apt.

[Marr]

389. You were saying something about class.

Anyway, have a nice day.

[seabeyond]

390. no. it is a reality. that is what burlesque is. you have an issue with it, address burlesque.

this is not about redq. she is spot on. playing this fuckin childish game calling out bigotry. feminists get, that even in our group there are privileged. we address it and discuss it. that simple.

[Marr]

392. She was not "spot on", she was speaking out of her ass, from simple prejudice.

I doubt that you and I can speak any more intelligently about the demographics of burlesque performers than could redqueen, so let's just take a cue from our short-tempered friend and skip the attempt.

[seabeyond]

397. more insults, lol. look at your posts. and then you accuse others of insults? what a fuckin joke.

yes, if you were to educate yourself in womens issue you would see how uneducated you are in the topic.

[seabeyond]

391. you are really a trip in ugly. nt

[Marr]

393. Are you at all troubled by the fact that you and your friend here resort to playground insults

so casually? Does it ever give you a sneaking suspicion that you might just be a bag of hot air?

[seabeyond]

396. you like her to KKK, bigot, and all kinds of ugly. are you saying you are protected from being

called out on your absurd personal attack and insults to another duer?

[Marr]

400. Not a personal attack at all-- the comparison was apt.

She was spouting bigotry. Bigotry you might agree with, but bigotry nonetheless. That is, dislike for people one actually knows nothing about, based on nothing but one's own assumptions and prejudices.

In essence, it's no different from a Klansman ranting about minorities, while knowing precisely jack shit about the people he's berating.

What I found embarrassing, personally, was her lame attempt to shield herself from criticism by bringing up her own ancestry. Your attempt to turn it around 180 degrees and say that I'm doing all the things your compatriot was doing is almost as embarrassing.

[seabeyond]

401. no. it was not apt. KKK KILL. are you fuckin serious. she is talkin about the privilege class.

are you seriously saying that we cannot talk about the privilege class here on du or we are just like the fuckin KKK

and you feel that is a balance, well grounded argument.

really????

[BainsBane]

404. So anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot?

Is that how it works? You do know that bigotry is against a group of people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., not opposition to a particular behavior. By your definition, I'm bigoted against rapists, pedophiles, and murderers because I don't like what they do.

[EOTE]

445. No, but anyone who'll express scorn for a profession merely because of the class and gender of those

involved is certainly a bigot. I'm quite sure the poster would have thrown in "white" along with the "middle class women" scorn, but quickly corrected herself. It's rather easy to see the hate dripping from those words.

[BainsBane]

446. You would be wrong

Since that poster is herself mixed race.

[EOTE]

447. Oh, I see. So only white people can be bigots now.

And if a person of mixed race attacks a whole group of people for no reason, it's sunshine and rainbows and not incredibly stupid bigotry. Christ the stupid shit I see here at times.

[BainsBane]

448. Tell me precisely where I said that?

[EOTE]

451. I said that the poster is a bigot for attacking people for their class and profession.

You told me that I was wrong because the poster was mixed race. Now you seem to be confused again. So, just to confirm, I was RIGHT when I said the poster was a bigot. Just wanted to make sure.

[BainsBane]

453. You are not right

Since you haven't made any effort to understand her point. 1) burlesque is not prostitution 2) prostitution treats women as commodities. That last part is quite literal, because a good portion of the women in the sex industry are enslaved, under age, or both.

While you think this is about the more important subject of how exploited middle-class whites (and men, the only ones who count), it is not. It is about the violence, enslavement, and death that is endemic to the sex industry.

[EOTE]

455. I understand her very bigoted point. It was quite apparent by reading it.

"Ugh, burlesque. Privileged middle-class women dipping a toe in the sex industry. So offensive. "

Those awful privileged middle-class women! Why can't they just leave the sex industry to those who founded it? It was an incredibly stupid and offensive comment, but I'm glad it was made. Makes it much easier to point out the incredible hypocrites around here. And I find it hilarious you keep bringing up men. I haven't mentioned men at all here, I'm talking about the incredibly offensive comments made to women. But keep bringing up men because that's all you've got. I'm sure you'll connect my displeasure at an ungodly stupid comment directed at women to the patriarchy at some point. BECAUSE... PATRIARCHY!!!!! It's really about anything you want it to be about, isn't it?

[BainsBane]

458. Wow, not even close.

Yes, she made that comment about burlesque but the point was it is far from representative of the sex industry. She never claimed the sex industry was middle class. Burlesque is far from prostitution.

We're talking about the sex industry in a thread about men buying sex and you find it "hilarious I keep bringing up men"? Wow. Just wow. You're so exploited.

[seabeyond]

459. Why can't they just leave the sex industry to those who founded it?

yes. " an incredibly stupid and offensive comment"

you quote her. then you invent an interpretation for your own conclusion. and yes. it is an incredibly stupid and offensive conclusion. where in the world did you get she was saying.... " Why can't they just leave the sex industry to those who founded it? "
from this, ""Ugh, burlesque. Privileged middle-class women dipping a toe in the sex industry. So offensive. "

totally made up on your part.

fuck....

what is offensive is telling a non white woman that she compares to the bigotry of the KKK.

[BainsBane]

450. Oh, wait. I misunderstood your previous remark

This is about how middle-class white men are so oppressed by the horrible people of color on the planet, and women of color in particular. Poor you. If you'd only been born in Mexico you'd be president now.

[EOTE]

452. Nope, you're confused again.

Don't worry though as I'd be really concerned if you weren't. I said nothing about middle-class white men. Must be another of your ether-based hallucinations. I DID say the poster was an awful bigot for attacking people solely on their class and profession.

[BainsBane]

454. What would you call someone who expresses

absolute hatred for half of humanity based on the fact they have XX chromosomes?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3943165

[BainsBane]

457. What exactly am I reveling in?

That I object to being called the kind of insults you consistently hurl, such as those in your hidden post? You have quite an internal dialogue going on in your head, and that you insist on projecting those thoughts onto others is concerning. Your point that men have it so bad on this site is a clear indication you are out of touch. Since when have efforts to assert state control over men's bodies and deny their most basic human rights seen as a mere difference of opinion? Who here argues that an industry endemic with human trafficking and enslavement of men is a "choice"? Reality means little to you.

[Kelvin Mace]

340. No, I haven't

Not since I stopped taking in Vaudeville shows.

If you are paying to see women (or men) take their clothes off, lap dances, etc, you are paying for sex.

[Marr]

371. Silly. /nt

[EOTE]

440. So sex doesn't even require physical contact now.

I'm kind of guessing you were told to leave room for the lord during dances as a child. Dirty, filthy, awful sex! Now just seeing someone naked is equivalent to sex. Little did I know when I first saw Schindler's List that I'd emerge from the experience no longer a virgin. It wasn't quite the experience I was hoping for, but I guess beggars can't be choosers, right?

[Kelvin Mace]

441. I love how you are trying to paint me as a sexual prude

when nothing could be further from the truth. Your ability to ignore facts, distort my words and project your own fears of judgment onto me is really astounding.

Since "good afternoon" didn't work, I will say "Good day, sir!"

[EOTE]

442. Uhhh, you are the one who said that sex doesn't require physical contact.

First grinding on someone's lap (which I suppose the truly prudish might consider sex), but then kissing and now merely WATCHING SOMEONE UNDRESS? Christ, I shudder to think of the things going on in the Victorian mind that believes watching someone undress is sex. And just in case you weren't aware, saying "Good day, sir!" doesn't automatically put an end to a conversation. It's not like the stupid shit you've tried to peddle is any less ridiculous now.

[Kelvin Mace]

443. "Good day, sir!" doesn't automatically put an end to a conversation.

It does when I add you to my "ignore list".

Again, you really should look into your problem of projection.

Toodles!

[EOTE]

444. Again, you don't seem to be familiar with how this works.

I'm still going to be able to call you out on your bullshit, you're just not going to be able to respond to me in turn. That truly works in my favor as now I'll be spending considerably less time pointing out the incredible judgement, prudishness and hypocrisy. Toodles!

[Kelvin Mace]

49. Ah, a textbook example of my argument

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3977169

right here in River City.

If you view sex as a "transaction" as this fellow does, then that is pretty sad and misogynistic. Paying for it then seems "normal".

[sibelian]

57. You are grotesque. nt.

[Kelvin Mace]

80. I am "grotesque"

because I find the concept of viewing sex as a "transaction" as misogynistic?

Care to elaborate?

[redqueen]

59. I have two questions for you.

Are you surprised to see men on a supposedly progressive board proudly describing sex between committed partners as if it were a transaction?

Are you surprised that you were personally attacked for calling it out?

[sibelian]

62. I have one question for you.

When did you get to say what sex is?

[Kelvin Mace]

83. Hmmm...

Not sure I understand the point of your question.

It is called a personal opinion, and I believe I have been entitled to have one since the time I learned to speak.

[seabeyond]

72. exactly redq. they sit here and cheer treating women as a fuck. so funny, as they probably do not

any, for obvious reasons. i have decided this thread is a hoot, a good laugh, in the pathetic

[redqueen]

84. Yep, it is easy to laugh... it is true it's pathetic. But it's also sad.

The mindset required for such a view, to even be able to see other people that way... it's very sad.

[seabeyond]

85. but they forget the numbers. a mere 13% of men are reduced to paying for a fuck. what does it make

that 13%? in my world they would not get a first glance, let alone a second. and here they sit, fuckin BRAGGING about having to fuckin pay to USE another human being in such a manner. what world is this. geesh.

[Marr]

138. Like Hugh Grant?

I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush there. I have no idea what sort of man regularly visits prostitutes, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to spot them on sight.

[seabeyond]

140. ya. like hugh grant and even he knew how pathetic he was. oh charlie sheen.

another winner. but we know they are not the broad brush that uses the prostitute.

hugh grant gets how pathetic he was, and has done everything he can to paint a different picture of him. but, ya, it stays with him.

[Marr]

142. No, we don't know that. That's my point.

You said that men who frequent prostitutes are somehow physically repellant. I say that's an assumption bordering on bigotry. I seriously doubt anyone could pick them out of any group.

[seabeyond]

145. right. these women are ultra horney, just want sex and is turned on by every guy not to mention,

totally satisfied. keep watching pretty woman. you can stay with the story.

[Marr]

151. I don't understad your comment.

I said nothing about women.

[EOTE]

319. That's a good thing.

When you DO understand something like that, that's when you should get worried.

[Marr]

321. I never understand the hostility from that person.

She almost invariably goes straight to personal insults, and tries to put words into your mouth. I said nothing whatsoever about women in either post above, and yet out comes the usual misogynist/pervert response.

And when it gets ridiculous, she just stops engaging. There's never an apology for stepping over the line or making baseless accusations-- just *poof*.

Pardon my public criticism here, but I've been on the receiving end of this verbal spasm several times now and it gets a bit tiresome.

[EOTE]

325. When one is so poorly able to express his/herself, insults are easy to go to.

Think of a young child who's just learned her first swears. If you're really angry at someone, but don't have the intelligence to express why, you may not have the ability to engage the person and explain WHY you're upset, but insults might make you feel better. I used to feel sympathy for the poster, but at one point you have to take responsibility for your own inactions. By the time one reaches adulthood, putting together a cogent sentence and expressing viewpoints without resulting to tired insults shouldn't be an impossibility.

[bluestate10]

175. The two people that I know solicited weren't scummy.

One was and still is married, the second is still single, very successful and turns down entreaties from women. And the women that the second man spurn are well educated and gorgeous because the man is handsome, educated and successful and a pretty good guy by all outward standards. My experience, though limited, caused men to view men and women that buy sex differently than I had, I would seek to understand them more as human beings if I encounter more of them.

[Kelvin Mace]

218. No, but a five minute conversation

on the topic of women will usually give me enough of a clue to place a very sure bet.

[Kelvin Mace]

76. Sadly no

and no.

I have seen this my entire life. I went to military school for six years and got to spend LOTS of personal time with 200+ adolescent males grades 7-12.

I can honesty say that the majority of the men I meet have views toward women that never progressed from those of I saw in school.

I have never understood the "us versus them" attitude of so many men, the references to their wives and girlfriends as forces restricting their lives that they do not understand.

My wife and I have had our differences over our 28 years of marriage, but we have NEVER personally insulted each other as I have heard many men insult their significant others (and then get it returned in kind). She is my best friend on top of being my wife and lover, and I cannot think of any person I would prefer to spend my time with.

She does have her hobbies and interests, I have mine, and then we have mutual interests (big sci-fi/fanstasy geeks). We even work together, which has led to men coming up and asking me how I can stand being around my wife so much?

The biggest obstacles to successful relationships are failure to communicate and lack of honesty. I have seen them kill more relationships than any other.

[redqueen]

89. Thanks.

There was a time I would have been surprised. Haven't had the luxury of that degree of naivete in years.

[RetroLounge]

86. Right on time...

RL

[LanternWaste]

122. With the grumpy old men in the balcony saying the exact same things to her every time...

With the grumpy old man in the balcony saying the exact same things to her every time...


Six of one, half a dozen of the other and both as irrelevant and petulant as the other (insert rationalization here)

[RetroLounge]

410. Agreed. One side taunts, the other falls for it every time, in both directions.

Well, maybe BOTH of these HOF vs. MEN factions should back off.

Of course, they are both so sure that THEY are correct and are obsessed with the need to tell the other why their views are wrong.

They really think getting one more dig in on the other at DU means shit in the real world?

Very few people beyond their little cliques give a shit about their actual opinions anymore, right or wrong, and just see the noise.

Misogynist! Misandry! Blah fucking blah...

It's the usual loud suspects, and they all help make DU suck.

RL

[seabeyond]

421. i guess your post is an example how to make du a more civil place? but then, i guess i am not

allowed to reply to your post, you know. blah blah blah.

wow.

sigh...

[RetroLounge]

435. So Says the poster-child for word salads

RL

[seabeyond]

437. You could not understand those two simple sentences? Hm

[RetroLounge]

463. Good thing you can edit now, huh?

as I just proved.



RL

[RetroLounge]

436. and thank you for proving my point.

OUTRAGE!!!!

OUTRAGE!!!!

OUTRAGE!!!!



RL

[seabeyond]

438. Outrage? Proving your point? Because I asked a question...

On a DISCUSSION board, grinnin'. You funny

[RetroLounge]

465. I read this entire thread.

We all know your posting history.

But please, proceed.



RL

[Sheldon Cooper]

439. LOL!!!

That's 'OUTRAGE!!!'??? Wow, you really need to get out more. Oh, and since I guess the barf button is now mandatory, here you go

[RetroLounge]

464. I'm sorry, who are you?

Oh, you used many exclamations and question marks...

You must be someone.

RL

[Sheldon Cooper]

466. Brilliant riposte!

What's next? I'm rubber and you're glue?

(Sorry, more exclamation points and question marks. Now that I know how much you like them, I'll make sure to add a few each time. You're welcome.)

[RetroLounge]

481. Aw, aren't you a sweetie?

RL

[sibelian]

56. Ugh.

[Drahthaardogs]

71. As Charlie Sheen said "I am not paying women for sex...

"I am paying them to go home AFTER we have sex".

[Kelvin Mace]

77. He is still paying for sex

and is a very sad man.

[seabeyond]

88. oh ya, and if that is not the man to emulate. a man that is living in hell. but hey, lets raise

Last edited Tue Nov 5, 2013, 12:08 AM - Edit history (1)

him high and honor him in the pathetic man and life that he has.

wow.

chalie sheen

bah hahahahah

[Drahthaardogs]

196. The word is emulate

And having a sense of humor is a good thing. Sorry but it was a pretty funny statement.

[seabeyond]

212. yes. it is easy for a man to laugh at a sexist joke. and for a white to laugh at a racist joke.

and for straight people to laugh at gay jokes.

i get that.

they do not have a dime in the game.

and thank you for the correction.

[Drahthaardogs]

220. You are welcome

Having spent a fair amount of time in europe, I find your position on the sex industry myopic and kind of funny.

[geek tragedy]

313. Oh goodness, you didn't tell us you had been to

EUROPE!

None of us lowbrow Philistines have been to Europe. Only dreamed of going there so, like you, we could be baptized in the wisdom and worldliness of that hallowed continent.

I mean, once someone's been to EUROPE, they pretty much know everything.

P.S. Did you visit Scandinavia while in Europe?

[seabeyond]

315. pretty much how i felt. so tired of the.... but, europe.

in all their mess as well.

[redqueen]

334. !

[Tuesday Afternoon]

100. you need another hero.

[redqueen]

246. Charlie Sheen is probably paying them not to press charges.

The Disposable Woman
By ANNA HOLMES
Published: March 3, 2011

...

Our inertia is not for lack of evidence. In 1990, he accidentally shot his fiancée at the time, the actress Kelly Preston, in the arm. (The engagement ended soon after.) In 1994 he was sued by a college student who alleged that he struck her in the head after she declined to have sex with him. (The case was settled out of court.) Two years later, a sex film actress, Brittany Ashland, said she had been thrown to the floor of Mr. Sheen’s Los Angeles house during a fight. (He pleaded no contest and paid a fine.)

In 2006, his wife at the time, the actress Denise Richards, filed a restraining order against him, saying Mr. Sheen had shoved and threatened to kill her. In December 2009, Mr. Sheen’s third wife, Brooke Mueller, a real-estate executive, called 911 after Mr. Sheen held a knife to her throat. (He pleaded guilty and was placed on probation.) Last October, another actress in sex films, Capri Anderson, locked herself in a Plaza Hotel bathroom after Mr. Sheen went on a rampage. (Ms. Anderson filed a criminal complaint but no arrest was made.) And on Tuesday, Ms. Mueller requested a temporary restraining order against her former husband, alleging that he had threatened to cut her head off, “put it in a box and send it to your mom.” (The order was granted, and the couple’s twin sons were quickly removed from his home.) “Lies,” Mr. Sheen told People magazine.

The privilege afforded wealthy white men like Charlie Sheen may not be a particularly new point, but it’s an important one nonetheless. Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears are endlessly derided for their extracurricular meltdowns and lack of professionalism on set; the R&B star Chris Brown was made a veritable pariah after beating up his equally, if not more, famous girlfriend, the singer Rihanna. Their careers have all suffered, and understandably so.

...

Which brings us back to Mr. Morgan, who, like many of Mr. Sheen’s past and present press enablers, showed little to no urgency in addressing the question of violence against women. “You’re entitled to behave however the hell you like as long as you don’t scare the horses and the children,” Mr. Morgan said at one point. Scaring women, it seems, was just fine.

...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/04/opinion/04holmes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[Sheldon Cooper]

87. I agree that it's pathetic.

Man (usually) paying woman (usually) to be his sperm receptacle. What a guy!


When I'm in a dry spell, I go without. What a novel concept!

[Kelvin Mace]

126. What, Amy Farah Fowler said "no"?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Some people getting awfully tetchy about the subject, methinks they feel judged.

[Sheldon Cooper]

156. Amy and I have the perfect relationship, with none of that icky bodily fluid stuff.

Yes, I think some folks feel judged, and that's okay because that's what I'm doing.

[Kelvin Mace]

215. *snort*

[Proles]

95. I suppose you think sex with a random woman at a bar is pathetic? Or with a women who may provide

sex in exchange for a long-term gain (Donald Trump's wife perhaps)? There's really no difference between those examples. One has no emotional bond, and the other is in exchange for a physical benefit.

So, in your opinion, the only non-pathetic sex is between those who share an emotional bond perhaps? Makes sense, but not everyone may have the time or ability to focus on a committed relationship. If that's the case, are they to abstain from sex altogether?

Either way, the point is kind of moot. Most of the people who frequent prostitutes are married themselves, so obviously they don't have to pay for sex.

With that said, there are different levels of prostitution. It's pretty skeevy if a guy were to see street prostitutes who are likely addicted to drugs or abused. But I'm pretty sure most people who see prostitutes don't go that route.

[Kelvin Mace]

125. Nope, not at all

If people wish to have sex, go for it. Mutual company, while away a lonely night, celebrate a friendship, I pass no judgement on that.

The best sex is between people who care for one another. The depth of that "care" is up to them.

Paying for it is just sad and/or creepy. People will do what they wish to do and do not need my permission or sanction. I do not seek to impose my will or viewpoint beyond expressing it. Having someone you are married/committed to, then spending money to have sex with someone else is not the sign of a healthy relationship.

I am sure there is some instance where everything is copacetic, but it would be rare indeed.

[Logical]

229. LOL, care for each other cracks me up! nt

[GliderGuider]

217. You don't pay someone to have sex with you.

You pay them to go home afterwards...

[Kelvin Mace]

223. Already stated and answered

You are paying them to have sex with you, then leave. That still counts as paying for sex.

[GliderGuider]

231. I know - I saw that after I'd posted.

And yes, it still counts as paid sex. Which of course leads straight into the old tiresome debate about greedy girlfriends. Or alimony - paying a wife to "go home afterwards" can get really expensive.

I don't have a philosophical problem with people paying for sex, but the implementation of the transaction can leave a lot to be desired.

[Kelvin Mace]

235. Agreed

The woman is often in dire circumstances, and the fact that you pay for interaction with another human being on that level is just problematic at best.

Yeah, cool movies/shows like "Pretty Woman" and "Diary of a Call Girl" paint a different picture, but I would hazard that is the 0.1% of the profession.

[Logical]

228. LOL, says someone who has not spent two minutes thinking about...

Why someone might.

[Kelvin Mace]

237. Oh, I have spent many a time thinking about the whys

My wife, sister, and a close friend discussed it for the last few hours when I brought the topic up.

[Logical]

238. Nice try! nt

[Kelvin Mace]

240. Well,

I certainly will cede your superior expertise on buying sex.

[Logical]

242. You are a shallow off thre cuff comedian! Nothing more. Nt

[Kelvin Mace]

244. A shallow off the cuff comedian who

has never had to pay for sex, if you please.

[KentuckyWoman]

245. I disagree completely

Sex as a business arrangement can be a very good thing in the right circumstances. Unfortunately prostitutes are more often than not horribly mistreated. I'm of the belief that's more a side effect of social inacceptance and shaming than of the nature of the transaction.

[Kelvin Mace]

251. When you lack of social skills is such

that you have to rent other people's genitalia, I think it is pretty sad.

Now, I am all for legalizing the trade, specifically to protect women from predators, but except for some VERY rare circumstances, paying for sex in just problematic at best.

I see no shame in sex, in and of itself.

[KentuckyWoman]

425. purchasing sex has nothing to with social skills

Your posts in this thread indicate you are probably incapable of understanding how that is.

[Kelvin Mace]

426. Yes, it does

the absence of them makes it necessary to purchase sex.

As to what I am, or am not capable of understanding, that, like my opinion, is just an opinion.

[KentuckyWoman]

427. OK so explain to me.

what is the social skill that is lacking in a 33 yr old woman who has 3 kids and is in a 12 year marriage she and her husband say is happy. I can tell you it's not an act. She obviously has the skill to be "in a relationship". She owns a business that employs 44 people. She obviously has enough social skill to convince people her product is valuable. And yet she buys sex of a very specific flavor from men several times a month.

Go ahead explain it to me.

[BainsBane]

428. Are you seriously arguing that the woman you describe is the typical client

Of sex workers? Surely you can't believe that.

[Kelvin Mace]

431. Is her husband aware she

is "buying sex"?

[KentuckyWoman]

472. yes he is and supports it.

but we aren't talking about him. You were about to explain to me how she is pathetic and lacks social skills.

The fact is people pay for sex for as many different reasons as there are people. You are simply wrong in your assumptions.

[KansDem]

302. What if you're disfigured?

Either by birth or by accident? The media and advertising industry (over)emphasize appearance, and whether we want to admit it or not, we all adhere to fashion trends of some kind. So what if you don't have these qualities and can't make the "swinging bar scene?"

What do you do then? Grab a magazine and head for the bathroom?

[Kelvin Mace]

305. I have stated in other posts that there are narrow, rare

exceptions. But by and large, creepy/sad.

[seabeyond]

306. what does a woman do if she is disfigured? where is the BIG push for the woman that does not get

any? seriously. the women are never addressed or discussed, thought about with any concern. insignificant. irrelevant. what does she do? nothing.

[KansDem]

320. Although this thread is about men and sex...

I rather think it's a issue for both genders.

As women make gains in economic power and shed the shackles of economic and societal stereotypes, there is no reason for them to use that status to pursue a companion for an evening or weekend.

[nomorenomore08]

479. Maybe there *should* be more outlets available for such women... Just saying...

Strictly hypothetical, as I have no real power or influence over anything, but the thought has crossed my mind.

[Glassunion]

4. Strange...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3969281

[Jesus Malverde]

45. I thought so too, I believe the common factor in these threads....

"They can have sex for free."

[Glassunion]

61. Sex is never free

[Jesus Malverde]

66. What does that mean?...nt

[Glassunion]

67. You pay for it one way or another.

If you find the perfect partner, you like paying for it.

If you find the wrong partner, you'll pay in ways that you never wanted to.

Paying does not always equal money.

[geek tragedy]

8. That's because younger men are better about gender equality than older ones.

Still too many pay for sex, but more and more men see such exploitation for what it is.

[11 Bravo]

29. Or maybe younger men are too foolish and inexperienced to make an educated choice. (WOW ...

apparently stupid, bigoted, broad-brush assertions can cut both ways!)

[geek tragedy]

41. possibly, but it's pretty clear the country has improved

in gender roles and relations over the past 50 years.

[11 Bravo]

51. OK, but be aware that there are some old farts that have been ...

vehemently pro-woman for a very long time, be it with regard to choice, equal pay, or any other gender equity issue. "Possibly" you are on the same side.

[geek tragedy]

54. Fully recognized, and apologies for any offense caused. nt

[redqueen]

64. Would you consider that these vehemently pro-woman old farts

are also of the opinion that it's perfectly acceptable to buy sex?

[11 Bravo]

328. I can only speak for myself. When I was 19 I paid for sex with a young woman ...

while taking R&R in Vung Tau, Republic of VietNam. At that time, the prospect of making it to 20 years of age seemed iffy to me. Today I would find such behavior to be unacceptable, and would imagine that most vehemently pro-woman old farts would share my view.
It's not always cut and dried.

[Eleanors38]

281. Hell, maybe they're short of money. What happened to the all hallowed money trail?

[hughee99]

12. One way or another, many men still pay for sex.

It's just not always a straightforward transaction, and doesn't always involve money.

[seabeyond]

19. So what are you saying? This is a typical misogynest comment. A dinner?

Is that paying? A marriage? Do we get the joke that all women are prostitutes, some are just more honest about it.

Please explain your comment.

[hughee99]

22. Yes, a typical misogynist comment...

I'm only curious WHY you asked me to explain since you've already determined what I meant and what I intended.

Men do things they don't want to do in hopes of getting sex. This is certainly true of many married men I know. I'm not talking about paying for dinner or buying expensive gifts, I'm just talking about doing stuff they really would prefer NOT to do in hopes that they will be rewarded with sex.

If a man ever says "I'd be happy to watch your friend's children too, while you two go out", he's not actually looking forward to watching someone else's children. He's hoping to be rewarded for the effort.

[Skittles]

26. your statement: "Men do things they don't want to do in hopes of getting sex."

GETTING really doesn't imply something shared - one GETS (an "AWARD&quot , the other GIVES. Or, according to you, SELLS. It really does not surprise me why many men have problems, er, "getting it". Maybe they could start with their own attitude?

[hughee99]

33. Sex is, of course, shared, but in many relationships one partner has much more control

over what is shared and when. Perhaps this isn't the way it should be, but for many, it's the way it is.

[Skittles]

36. yet when women behave the way men wished they did

they're called WHORES and SLUTS

[hughee99]

40. Not by those men I know who put in this effort

in hopes of being "rewarded" by their spouse. I can't recall any man EVER calling his own spouse a "whore" or "slut" because they had sex. Perhaps I don't know the same men you're speaking of.

[Skittles]

58. the women YOU BUY FROM

HELLO!!!

[seabeyond]

69. ya.... hey skittles

you are a hoot.

[hughee99]

73. Huh

Women I BUY FROM? I suspect you think this is a clever statement, but either you're reading something into my statements I never said, or you're out in left field.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

103. ... and I quote ...

hughee99 (10,867 posts)
12. One way or another, many men still pay for sex.

so yeah ... you said it. and Skittles has competent reading comprehension skills ... HELLO!!

[hughee99]

112. I don't think that's it.

I made myself chili last weekend and paid for it the next day. And yet, I didn't BUY chili, nor did anyone SELL it. I guess it depends on how one interprets the term "pay". I think that Skittles wasn't going back to a statement 4 or 5 posts ago in attempt to be clever (and thus ignoring all the other statements I made clarifying specifically what I meant, and intentionally misinterpreting it), because as far as "clever" posts go, that would be pretty weak. Skittles is much smarter than that.

[Skittles]

114. DAMN STRAIGHT I AM

[Jesus Malverde]

158. lulz, on the chili...nt

[Skittles]

113. I assure you I comprehend just FINE

[hughee99]

117. I figured you did, which is why I'm confused by your response.

I'm a guy, so I'm a little slow. I would appreciate any clarification you could provide.

In response to your statement that if women behaved the way men wanted, men call them "whores" or "sluts", I said that the men I know don't refer to their spouses as "whores" or "sluts" because they have sex. You responded with "The women YOU BUY FROM HELLO!!!!". I'm sure you intended this to make a point, but I don't see what that point is or how it relates to my statement.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

131. because you are "paying" one way of the other. one you are "paying" to not

call them "sluts" or "whores" (to wit: your spouses) and the other way you are "paying" to do things with and to and call them "sluts" and "whores".

either way you are "paying" you said so your self. do you not understand how degrading that is to both genders?

and how pitiful you sound having to "pay" for sex ... no matter who it is or HOW you pay.

[hughee99]

137. So are you suggesting that people DON'T do something especially nice for their spouses

in hopes of having sex or are you suggesting that people do, but we shouldn't call it "paying" (because it's the use of THIS word that makes it all so degrading)?

By the way, to clarify, I"M not calling anyone sluts or whores. I'm not sure who you talk to that uses these words, but other than anonymous internet posters the occasional hip-hop artist or RW talk radio host, I don't know that this terminology is normal for anyone to use. Certainly it's not normal for anyone I've discussed such subjects with in person.

[seabeyond]

141. nah. i like sex. as i am all over him as much as he is all over me. no.... i was not giving

any more or less than he was. i was taking as much as he was. that would be healthy.

[hughee99]

154. It sounds great, and healthy.

I suspect you have a better relationship than many do, and are probably aware of that.

[seabeyond]

164. sigh...

make me feel guilty, why dontcha. lol. i have had some harsh posts in this thread, recently

[hughee99]

171. Sorry, it's not my intention to make anyone feel bad.

What you're describing sounds like what most people want, which is great, but a lot of people aren't in relationships like that. My arguments aren't attempting to depict what happens in a really good relationship, just what happens in a pretty common one.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

222. You are obtuse, possibly, deliberately so. It is neither charming nor endearing. I suggest nothing -

you have been quite capable of doing that all by yourself.

[redqueen]

258. +1

That shit about transactional sex from your partner in a committed relationship is beyond fucking noxious.

[hughee99]

291. My goal isn't to be charming or endearing.

In such a discussion, I'm not sure those qualities will do anything to make my position clearer or advance the argument.

I made an observations about the way things are based on my personal experiences and discussions with people about the subject. I've called NO ONE a slut or whore, and my discussion has solely centered around committed couples. I asked an honest question and received a non-response.

I have suggested that in a relationship, it is not uncommon for one partner to have more control over the sexual activity than the other. I have further suggested that the partner with less control often does things in hopes of being "rewarded". Certainly sex could be one such reward, but certainly not the ONLY one. Perhaps this isn't the way things should be in an ideal relationship (and if you're lucky enough to be in one, congratulations), but it's certainly not uncommon.

In such a relationship where one does things and is "rewarded", sometimes with sex, it could be argued that one had to "pay" for it. While the other partner didn't "sell" anything, they returned one favor with another. Perhaps "pay" is not the best word to use, but it could be considered applicable to the situation.

You seem to disagree with my assessment of how things are, and I'm curious WHICH part you disagree with. Do people NOT do things for their spouse in hopes of being rewarded? Is it merely the characterization of this "trading of favors", so to speak, as "pay" that you object to? Is it something else?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

324. you need links and statistics to back your assertions. ugh. and gross. you live in a

nasty little world. you have my sympathy.

[hughee99]

326. So if I understand correctly,

you disagree that in committed relationships, one partner may do something nice/helpful/special for the other because they believe it will increase their chances of having sex.

[MadrasT]

327. If you think sex between committed partners is a transaction, I feel sorry for you. n/t

[hughee99]

329. An excellent non-response to the question I posed.

I neither categorized ALL sex between partners as being this way, nor suggested that doing X results in sex (just that people perceive it increases their chances of having sex).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

338. I feel sorry for his partner, too.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

337. You keep moving the goalposts. That is not what you said above. I believe you and I are done here.

Have a wonderful day. Peace out.

[hughee99]

339. How is it different from what I said above?

In any case, I keep asking questions that you keep not answering, so yes, we are done here.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

343. Please, go back and reread your posts and see how you keep changing your parameters.

It might help you in later debates.

[hughee99]

348. I've read my posts. I know what they say, since I wrote them.

Again, I asked a specific question and got a non-response. I suspect you started out by reading things into my statements that weren't there. As I clarified my statements to try to extract specific answers to questions (answers that I didn't get) to try to discover WHICH part of my statements you disagreed with, you may have changed what you chose to read into them.

I asked for more information and have tried to get you to explain WHERE you disagree, but other than generalities and the occasional condescending remark, you have not made any attempt to counter what I'm saying or point out where my logic is wrong, or where a specific premise for my argument is faulty.

As far as what will help me in later debates, the only thing I've learned here is that when only one side is presenting information, and the other side's "argument" consists of condescending remarks, avoiding answering any specific questions with specific answers, and using "You're wrong" as their argument, what you're having is not a debate.

[boston bean]

408. Listen treat your wife like a human being and do nice things for her

Because you love her, not just because you are hoping if you do something nice she will owe you sex.

[hughee99]

412. The motivation for doing something and the consequences from it aren't the same thing.

People do things for their spouse, hell, people do things for others in general because they love them, or because they think it's the right thing to do, or because they feel guilty, or for any number of other reasons.

If you give a starving person some money for food, don't you hope that they eat and not have that money stolen or spent on less important things? If you help your friend out, don't you also hope that they would help you out if it were needed? What you hope for as a consequence of your actions isn't necessarily the motivation for them. The fact that someone is willing to do something not for a "reward", but just for the hope of one indicates to me that the reward isn't the main motivation, unless they start complaining about what they didn't get or thought they were entitled to, in which case maybe it was. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm not talking about someone who feels they are "owed" something for doing something nice, but someone who HOPES that something nice results from their actions.

If you do nice things for your spouse to make them happy, because you love them, don't you also hope that your spouse would do nice things for you as well. Doesn't everyone want to believe that their partner as concerned with their happiness as they are about their partner's happiness? As I've said before, I'm not specifically talking about sex here, the reward could be most anything that makes one happy. It may even be something that makes everyone happy.

[boston bean]

413. We do nice things for eachother because we love one another.

We don't do it for some hope of some type of reward. If we did it would mean we were doing it for selfish reasons.

I think you got things twisted up, and if you can straighten it out a bit, you might have more luck.

[hughee99]

415. People do nice things for their spouse because they love and appreciate them,

I do as well. People also like to be reminded that their spouse loves and appreciates them, THAT's the reward, and it can take many forms, from a kind word, to a hug, to a random act of kindness, and even sex. In a healthy relationship, it's sometimes taken for granted that it happens because it regularly happens. In an unhealthy relationship, it's noticed because it doesn't. I've been in both types of relationships, most people I know have as well. If one had been in an unhealthy relationship long enough, even when one end's up in a healthy one, it's something that is often noticed. In some ways, it can lead people to tell them that there's something messed up with them that they would even "think like that". In other ways, it can lead to them having a greater appreciation of their healthy relationship than they otherwise would, because they have something very different to compare it to.

[boston bean]

416. So we've moved from sex to love and appreciation are the "reward"?

Do nice things for the right reasons with no expectation of something in return and you will do much better.

That's all I got. Have a good one.

[hughee99]

417. Actually, I was there about a half dozen posts ago.

From post #291
"Certainly sex could be one such reward, but certainly not the ONLY one. Perhaps this isn't the way things should be in an ideal relationship (and if you're lucky enough to be in one, congratulations), but it's certainly not uncommon.

An expectation is something you EXPECT. Something you think SHOULD happen, something you think you deserve and it's not what I've been talking about. It's not the same thing as a hope. It's not even that close.

As for no expectations or hopes, the next time you do something nice for someone, ask yourself if you have ANY hopes about the consequences of those actions (either specific or "Karma" based) and I think you'll be surprised.

[boston bean]

418. Go back and read your first post in this sub thread.

I really gotta move on.

[hughee99]

419. Ah, well, have a nice day.

I was going to suggest reading post 112, which I thought I might be dealing with a similar issue.

Despite many posts where I clarified and expanded upon my initial post, I thought someone else might be going back to my first post (despite reading the further clarification) to interpret in a way that intentionally ignores everything else I have said, and characterize it in a way they know is not what I intended.

[boston bean]

420. Throughout the thread you have stated that things are done for rewards or for paying for it in

some way. I am not imagining that. I've given the kindest advice I can. Have a good one.

[hughee99]

422. I actually stated that things are done with the HOPE of a reward,

and have in several posts pointed out that isn't the ONLY motivation. Given what I've written since my first post, it's clearly an oversimplification of what what I believe in the form of a wise-ass response.

In any case, thank you for your advice. It is good advice and I'd like to try to follow it, though I'm not sure how successful I'll be.

[boston bean]

423. And I'm telling you have it backwards. Stop doing that. You'll be much happier.

[hughee99]

424. I understand, you're suggesting I do things

without any expectations or hopes about what might result from them. And I'm being complete sincere when I say that it is good advice, it's just very hard to do. Hopes and expectations come unconsciously, and simply telling yourself you SHOULDN'T feel that way doesn't make them go away.

The only way I've seen to MAKE them to go away is to consistently be disappointed. If you make a special effort at work on a regular basis, for example (to take the spouse and sex out of the equation), with the hope that you will rewarded in some way, and you are continually disappointed, the hopes and expectations WILL eventually go away away on their own.

[Niceguy1]

53. no, they are called

Good women, great gf, keepers, etc.

[MissMillie]

310. "Men do things they don't want to do in hopes of getting sex."

So do women

[hughee99]

316. I agree, I didn't intend to imply it was

A one way street.

[JVS]

314. Doing things you don't want to do is wrong.

Stop it!

[Pab Sungenis]

31. Translation

"Men bad."

Where the fuck did he even imply a woman was involved? I'm a gay man and I pay every day of my life for one date I had back in 1992.

On a lighter note, we finally get to legalize our marriage next Thursday.

Keep your misandry out of the debate.

[geek tragedy]

43. Misandry!

[1000words]

44. +1

Thought the same thing, but don't have it in me to engage poster.

[Pab Sungenis]

52. Exactly. It's a joke at MEN'S expense.

About how driven by sex we are by nature.

[BainsBane]

70. It's hard to keep up

I've been lectured that I can't possibly understand how difficult it is to be male and have a need for sex, like I as a woman have no need for sex. Now you're angry at a woman when it is the male poster talking about what lengths men will go to for sex.

[seabeyond]

75. OMG... it is such a whine,. lordy. this is a funny thread. and it should not be. but

pure entertainment. gotta say, i am feeling good at this moment.

[BainsBane]

136. kind of like this

[tc45a]

134. Women love sex and desire it but as a general rule do not have the same intense sex drive

as men.

[seabeyond]

170. i know men with low sex drives and women with high. it is conditioning that we give to men that

their sex drive is so much more. it is not the reality.

[seabeyond]

189. yes. cause we say it over and over and over and over and over again. even if a man

does not, to feel masculine he has to keep up the friggin game cause it is expected and demanded of him. do you know, they say men think sex every couple of sec. totally bogu. men think on average sex 17 times a day. eating 19 times a day. women think sex 12 times a day. eating 15 times a day. women also do not consider personal needs as much as men. probably conditioned.

when society is constantly telling me all they are, their definition of men is their sex drive every second of their fuckin day, then ya.... i betcha they are pretty much all over themselves their sex drive.

[LadyHawkAZ]

194. The key phrase in the study:

"...women also appear to be heavily influenced by social and cultural factors as well."

An openly sexual woman is still frowned upon in most cultures, ours included. That simple fact influences the frequency that they seek it out, the amount of pleasure they take from it and what they are willing to do. It throws off straightforward studies like this.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/02/the_truth_about_female_desire_its_base_animalistic_and_ravenous/

[geek tragedy]

311. Then why does Viagra exist? Get men out

of their early 20s, and they stop being the hormone-driven creatures you portray them to be.

[BainsBane]

68. Misandry for you is daring to point out sexism

We aren't allowed to speak in public without being censored or some here whining that they are persecuted because we voice concerns. The guy talks about wives. Amazingly, in the English language wife typically means a woman.

Also you need to look at a dictionary because you have not got a clue what the word misandry means. You continually use it in error. You might have called out sea's post for being heteronormative, but that is not the same as misandry. Previously you invented a thread claiming evidence of women hating men by pointing to a post from a man you clearly didn't understand. Then you steadfastly refused to concede you were in error.

I find you antipathy toward women strange. You need have nothing to do with us. Why you feel your rights are tied to silencing us, I cannot begin to imagine.

[Sheldon Cooper]

74. !!!!!!

You ask the same questions I've been thinking.

[LiberalLoner]

331. +1

[seabeyond]

81. ok. wht i get for this is if i do not honor, apprecaite, validate the 17% men that buy women to

be used, i am an over all hater of men. really? so i am not allowed a voice to SNEER at the men that need to PAY to USE another human being. you know the 17%... wait, the 13 % of men that have to pay to get off with a woman?

that creates a problem for you?

[Capt. Obvious]

14. That means prices are coming down!

Capitalism at work.

[1000words]

15. The invisible hand ... job?

[msanthrope]

152. Okay..you win the thread. nt

[sl8]

16. Deadbeats! n/t

[uponit7771]

17. Does the study say anything about men having LESS sex? In Japan men more and more are going

... without.

Seems strange

[seabeyond]

18. Few men paid for it in the first place. 17% is a small part of the whole

[Skittles]

60. yet there's guys who claim they have "no other choice"

freaking SAD

[seabeyond]

63. they probably do not. but then there are women that arent getting any either. we just do not sell

parts of men for the women to use. because, womens sexuality is insignificant and does not count. it is all about the man. the need, the gotta.

[Agschmid]

92. It's a self reported number... so it's likely somewhat deflated from reality.

[seabeyond]

96. maybe, or maybe not. one has to wonder why there is such an effort to inflate the number for more

men to pay to use a body.

[Fumesucker]

21. Odd that this drop in men paying for sex coincides with the explosion of internet porn

[JI7]

24. or more likely the gains women have made in society

[Fumesucker]

25. Personally I'm a coincidence theorist n/t

[Pab Sungenis]

34. Nah. I give it to porn.

That and the down economy.

[Warren DeMontague]

99. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[tc45a]

121. Less houses of prostitution also enters into the equation

[Pab Sungenis]

124. For a moment I thought you said "hours."

I thought "another benefit of Daylight Saving Time?"

[jmowreader]

157. Or, more likely, the increased emphasis the cops have put on prostitution lately

Prostitution stings are easy money to police departments...so much so, that any woman presenting herself as a prostitute is by default considered to be a cop.

[hughee99]

27. I would think social networking may also play a role in this.

If you can communicate with more people relatively easily, the chances of finding a partner are considerably better.

[Agschmid]

94. Yup.

[Capt. Obvious]

28. Men are paying for cam girls now

[Fumesucker]

32. Just the dumb ones

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

39. No, they're even paying for the smart cam girls

not just the dumb ones.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. Now you've done it.

[RetroLounge]

91. LOL!

RL

[Agschmid]

93. And the prevalence of Android/iPhone apps which allow you to meet up for free sex.

http://grindr.com

[loli phabay]

201. i say its due to the ease of finding someone who also wants sex online

Its not hard nowadays to find someone who is into whatever you are into compared to even ten years ago. In the past you would have had to pay for hardcore bdsm nowadays go online andbthere you can find someone into it. All kinks are catered to online.

[Fumesucker]

295. I'll bow to the voice of experience

Although if actual sex is so easy to come by I fail to fathom the popularity of porn.

[loli phabay]

312. think of it like sports, sometimes you just want a beer and highlights on tv

Sometimes you want to go to the game for all nine innings.

[gopiscrap]

46. good

[MattBaggins]

78. Since you just made that up.. nothing

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. Men: single handedly-driving up the pay gap.

[B Calm]

79. Post was self deleted

Last edited Tue Nov 5, 2013, 06:53 AM - Edit history (1)

[seabeyond]

90. ah, maybe they ought to just give it to the men for free. why the fuck would they need to eat,

right?

use them, dont pay them.

wow

[Proles]

97. Who says they're being "used" if they agree to the act consensually? His was a joke by the way. /nt

[seabeyond]

98. ya, right cause the women are not desperate as it is. really, they are just horney and want the

dirty smelly stranger to use their body cause they are so into sex.

and joke? ya. it is a joke to you. not so much me, women desperate to eat that they are willing to sell themselves. but, if you live with the illusion they are having a grand time you know, 20 blow jobs a night to survive), i guess you can convince yourself it is .... funny. at others expense. gotcha.

[Proles]

106. You seem to be describing street prostitution, which is indeed exploitative.

Hence why it should be legalized and regulated.

I don't get the impression that prostitutes who list their services on a professional website, for instance, have any qualms with what they are doing. It's ultimately a choice they make as an adult, regardless of their financial situation.

Of course, poor financial situations are another topic entirely.

[1000words]

110. You are bringing much needed sanity to this thread

Thank you.

[seabeyond]

166. no. he tries to wrap it up in a pretty bow so others can feel good. there is nothing pretty about,

renting a body for use, for any reason.

[seabeyond]

111. ya, do you know how many of thsoe women are sex slaves doing acts against their will cause there is

some man behind the seen controlling them. HUGE. the sex slave and much of the porn and prostitution and even stripping men are getting a kick out of is thru sex slave. but,. wtf, right? why should men be concerned. it is meeting THEIR needs.

but it is good to see, that at some level. you recognize the pathitic. pat you on the head.

hey... legalization? makes it only that much easier for the sex slave traders. being informed is a good thing.

[duffyduff]

116. NOBODY chooses to be used as a human garbage can.

It doesn't matter if prostitution is legal or not, on the streets or not.

I don't think you have a clue what this "profession" really involves.

[Bonobo]

283. Whenever I see references to "human toilet". "human garbage can", etc.

I always think it says a lot more about the person saying it's view of sex.

If you view penises as disgusting penetrating things that are harmful and ejaculation as the equivalent of defecation, I can see why you would think so.


But not everyone views it that way. Truth.

[BainsBane]

297. So if someone doesn't make you happy by pretending that stuff doesn't exist

They are the ones who have problems, not the men who actually treat women that way. Once again the greatest social ill is not misogyny or degradation of other human beings but drawing attention to it. Just like the problem isn't rape or human trafficking but the horrible women who draw attention to it.

So now I know your Late night PM was complete bullshit.

[Bonobo]

299. My opinion is as I stated it.

Men who treat women badly are bad, this is so obvious that I don;t know why it should even need to be said.

But the very act of prostitution does not mean that the women are being treated as human toilets. THAT description is indicative of a certain way of thinking.

People who treat people like garbage stink.

[BainsBane]

300. That isn't what you said

You were angry that a woman dared raise the fact that some men treat women that way and insisted she, rather than the abusers, were sick. At least you're in keeping with the proud tradition around here that discussing oppression and exploitation is far worse than perpetuating it. The key purpose seems to be to keep the privileged safe in their little cocoons where they don't have to think about anything that happens to those they consider unimportant.

[Bonobo]

301. No, sorry, that is your interpretation.

We weren't speaking of a specific incident, were we? So there was no "person" who I could pass judgment on. If we are speaking generally of men who treat women like shit, of course I am not in conflict with who is wrong. It is as obvious as can be.

But the language involved in discussing the issue is also important and the analogy that the male's role in a sexual encounter is akin to defecation is one that I call out when I see it, just as YOU call out things you find offensive.

Their was no implication that a man who treats a woman badly is in any way deserving of anything less than condemnation.

[seabeyond]

307. he is treating her as a thing to use. are you really suggesting that a man that pays a woman to use

her body is interested or concerned with her as a human being?

a thing. use and discard.

[LadyHawkAZ]

169. Your post contains entirely too much sanity.

Good luck with that on this issue.

[polly7]

183. There you go ....... and this is exactly why women have fought to have the

choice of what to do with their own bodies.

Of course there are horrible situations with women who are drug addicted, have been abused or see no other way to get through the day than to sell their bodies, but this is where social programs designed to help these women out of the situation need to be stepped up - in every area of the world. Sex slavery is already illegal, so of course laws and investigations designed to stop it - as well as any form of slavery - have to be enforced much more rigorously, there are many online groups already trying to do a great deal towards that.

But, as for a grown woman who wishes to dance for money, collect money for sex or anything else with her own body - it's completely her prerogative. Freedom of choice doesn't include choice only for those who find women who've decided for whatever reason to do any of this as perpetual victims, or shame them as sluts.

Freedom - it's a fine thing.

For those who are forced into it - go do something to help them!

[BainsBane]

298. Like working at McDonalds is a choice

Or working For $1 a day in An overseas factory. I find it fascinating how so many resort to right-wing discourse about how workers choose their exploitative fates when it comes to women's labor, yet those same individuals express outrage when that notion is applied to men in the minimum wage economy.

And the millions of women, girls, and boys who are sold for sex by their slaveowners? What sort of choice do they exercise. Or are we supposed to pretend they don't exist? Your imagined wall between street prostitution and Brothels or the Internet is a fantasy.

[duffyduff]

115. It isn't "consent" when people prostitute themselves because they HAVE to.

Who in the HELL would prostitute himself or herself if there were financial alternatives?

Jesus H. Christ.

It is the BIGGEST lie that this is a "victimless" crime.

[liberalmuse]

102. Oh good. So either they're raping more...

or they're at home watching, "Homeland" while munching on Lay's cuisine. Salt and fat tend to lessen the sex drive.

I don't buy it. And I think it is because the plastics and crap that large corporations are putting into our environment are detrimental to a man's sex drive.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

108. rape is not really about sex and i really doubt this is about plastics

more realistically, women are more likely to have sex with men outside of marriage + we all have less disposable income now (besides the very wealthy)

[KG]

105. free internet pr0n.

[duffyduff]

109. If true, good. Prostitution is a human rights violation. n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

118. I'm surprised no one has mentioned an obvious factor for this trend

if it is, indeed, a trend. And that is, the stigma that goes with being arrested for mere solicitation, much less actually doing anything with a call girl. That ad in Craigslist or wherever just might have been put in there by some police department which is seeking to increase its arrest rate. Some poor schmuck who may be desperate for the intimate company of a woman, but who can't find it through socially-acceptable channels, answers the ad, then gets arrested for his efforts. Not only that, but he gets to have his picture posted alongside the real criminals in the "Who Got Arrested" section of the local TV or printed news. Then if his boss finds out and is the unforgiving type, the poor schmuck gets fired on top of having an arrest record.

[seabeyond]

128. ya. cause we are all concerned about the poor shmuck woman that isnt getting any. wait, she doesnt

count. we expect her to suck it up and do without.

[Art_from_Ark]

129. The vast majority of arrests for solicitation are of men

And the OP itself was about fewer *men" seeking prostitutes.

What, exactly are you trying to say?

[seabeyond]

133. i am saying the pathetic fools that have to buy a womans body to use is considered the "poor shmuck"

that cant get it unless he pays. so it is vital he get it, even if using a body to get what he needs. but... there are poor shmuck women out there not getting it. we do not give a damn. she is not expected to have a "need". she can do without. a actually, she is not even considered. but the poor shmuck man MUST have a body to use, cause he is a man after all, and entitled to sex, even if paying using another body as a cum receptor.

[tc45a]

149. Nearly all women can get sex if they really want it

Lot easier for a woman to get sex than a man. All they need to do is ask a man. Men do not need their arm twisted to have sex. Up for it at any time, anywhere.


A woman can go into any bar, walk up to a guy, cut to the chase and say let's have sex. Some guy in the bar will have sex with her no matter how she looks.

It does not have to be bar. Large women on swingers sites have guys lined up to have sex with them.


Us men are horny. All women need to do is just ask.

[seabeyond]

168. you are full of crap. but men like to whine this so they can make their excuses to rape and pay....

to use a body.

a lot of women do without. no one has concerns but with this stupid made up argument that all women can get it. not true. and they are expected to do without, keep their mouth shut, after all, they are not fuckable so who should be concerned. the men that are not fuckable? entitled to a woman regardless.

[seabeyond]

186. because it is a very small group of men that buy a woman to use. which was my first point. nt

[polly7]

323. Yes, and it looks like more and more are becoming willing to pay for it, also.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3979888

[Abukhatar]

123. the study also showed...

...that more men have bigger forearms

[boston bean]

130. Everytime I read the subject line, I misread it to say

Fewer men are praying for sex, survey suggests.

Not sure what that signifies..... LOL

[LadyHawkAZ]

160. *snort*

[madville]

132. I rarely see street prostitutes anymore

15 years ago they were everywhere, the newspaper was full of the shame, shame mugshots of either the prostitutes or solicitors the cops picked up every weekend. Don't see that anymore. Did they all move to Craigslist or something?

It was popular when I was in the military in the 90's when in foreign countries but the military is made up of a different element these days and they got more strict in that area, much less likely to do that sort of thing.

I think some men like the thrill of it and even have a genuine fetish for prostitutes when they could otherwise get it in some other fashion. Some are socially inept,
Some have some kinky fetish they need to itch, lots of different types, I'm sure the Internet and more lifelike dolls/toys have led to the decline as well.

[Bonobo]

135. Interested to see what some people here think of this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017156362

[1000words]

146. Don't confuse the black and white broad-brushers, Bonobo

[BainsBane]

148. pot, kettle

[msanthrope]

162. I have a family member who uses a sexual surrogate. I will not judge them, since

their condition--mental and physical--truly precludes a typical, committed relationship. It has helped their life.

That said, I've also seen the exploitation and misery that street prostitution brings. It's not pretty, nor easily remedied.

[TlalocW]

155. We're bartering for it

The slow economic collapse has forced us to use chickens, eggs, piles of wood, hay bales, etc.

TlalocW

[LadyHawkAZ]

165. ...

Is it Prostitution Thread Month already? How time does fly!

[opiate69]

191. Nope.. Supposed to be PETA...

But then, seems like some have decided to go all-in, since they haven't gotten their way...

[LadyHawkAZ]

195. The crossover between "WOMEN'S CHOICE!!!" in the abortion threads

and "NO WOMEN'S CHOICE!!!" in this one is popcorn-worthy all by itself.

[opiate69]

198. True that..

The olympics-worthy gymnaatics involved in maintaining that kind of cognitive dissonance is a spectacle to behold...

[1000words]

202. Stunning hypocrisy

And yet, comedy gold.

[LadyHawkAZ]

267. I almost just stayed out of the thread completely.

It's not like any of the stats or articles I post ever make a difference where it needs to. I don't think they even get read.

[opiate69]

272. I hear ya..

Yet, we're the ones wearing the blinders, I'm sure...

[polly7]

210. I know, that's the first thing I think of when I see these threads.

The bullshit that paid, consenting women are nothing but 'cum receptacles' (hey, at least it's not quite as nasty as the ol' *toilet phrase) are so feeble-minded they just can't know how evil what they're doing really is, just blows my mind. Yet I doubt a single person here has actually gone out to help some of those women who obviously ARE in it because of terrible circumstances or who are being forced. It's just easier to toss everyone in one big bucket and forget about solutions that might actually do something to help those who need it.

[polly7]

232. That's great!

I've always tried to do the same in every city I've lived in, as someone who's used one myself many years ago, and it's really something that everyone should at least consider doing.

[opiate69]

247. Yeah, but...

"*toilet" has now been replaced with "human garbage can"...
But, no.. there's no psychopathology under the surface there, no Sir-eee!


(as always, good to see you, polly!)

[polly7]

248. Good to see you too, opiate!

I haven't seen a description of the men who sell their bodies for sex to all those women I googled up within about 30 seconds. I wonder if there is a suitably disgusting equivalent description for what they're doing?

on edit ........ sorry, I dropped my twizzler before checking that what I said made sense.

[opiate69]

254. You dropped your twizzler??

I love it when you talk dirty!

[polly7]

255. LOL!

Yes!

But there's a two second rule in my house - that's about the time between the dog hearing it fall and me lunging under the chair to find it.

[opiate69]

257. Lol.. When our dogs were still with us, they were completely oblivious...

Seriously.. The only two dogs I've ever seen who would watch the treat you tossed them bounce off their foreheads lol

[polly7]

261. LOL. I'd really like if my dog did that about now ....... he's watches every bite.

and he's so tall his face is right up to mine. He guilts me constantly. I'd have enjoyed your dogs.

[opiate69]

265. My wife wants a big dog (our last two were a pom and a shih-tzu)...

But man, with 2 teenagers and an 11 year old, I can't handle any more big damn things getting underfoot lol

[polly7]

273. Aw, I see the problem.

Whatever you do, don't get a Great Pyrenees. They have NO idea of how much space they take up, they trip you, run over you, drag you ..... and have tails like battering rams.

I bet you'll all love whichever you decide to get. Congrats, when you get him/her!

[opiate69]

274. Thanks.. I think we're gonna compromise on something like a decent sized pug lol

[polly7]

275. Great choice. Pugs are adorable! nt.

[opiate69]

276. Yup.. And, our landlady just so happens to breed them (although...)

I'm more inclined to see about going through a rescue agency if I can swing it.

[polly7]

277. Well that is handy, if you choose to do so!

I got mine from the humane society and as much as I've joked about him here, I love him to death. I can tell he was an abused dog - he runs to the corner and shakes for an hour if he sees me swat a fly - I think it's the hitting motion. He's afraid of a lot of things I've never experienced with any dog. Rescue agencies are a lot better than the pound or humane societies for matching up a dog's personality with the right family, they know a bit more about how they'll react to things. It has been interesting learning about him though.

[LadyHawkAZ]

264. It's not really consent! Because, well,

trafficking something something men paying for sex something something child slavery. Except for me, who has the distinction of being the only prostitute in the history of ever who anyone will actually acknowledge as being a consenting adult. For some reason no one will actually say to my face that I'm a sad victim incapable of consent like (apparently) every other sex worker on the planet. I just don't understand why...

Nice to see you, Polly.

[opiate69]

268. Yup..and now, apparently money is a "coercive factor" as well...

[polly7]

269. Harumph!!!!

Well, missy .... "You are a sad victim incapable of consent like (apparently) every other sex worker on the planet."!!!

I kid!!!! One, because I believe you'd kick my ass, and 2: you know I don't believe a word of it. Absolutely, there is a huge problem with women / men / children being forced into slavery of all kinds all over the world and everyone here knows it needs to be addressed, but when it comes to grown men and women choosing to do with their bodies as they see fit .... it's none of my business and more power to them.

Good to see you too, LadyHawkAZ!

[msanthrope]

335. Well, missy, the patriarchy done took over your mind. You are on the side of

the oppressors. Stasi!!!

[Bonobo]

280. Yup. Abortion has NOTHING to do with morality, but...

ejaculation MUST have everything to do with morality.

[Warren DeMontague]

286. I like the almost quantum mechanical effect whereby a woman has choice and self-determination right

up until the moment she takes her clothes off in front of a camera, at which point not only is she transmogrified into someone utterly incapable of making up her mind about anything who MUST BE STOPPED, but the odd effects ripple out into the larger universe, transforming religious right fuckwits like Phylis Shlafly and Ed Meese into "allies", even.

I fully admit I don't understand the math.

[LadyHawkAZ]

296. Sex Worker's Epilepsy

Last edited Tue Nov 5, 2013, 06:35 AM - Edit history (1)

Exposure to money (or cameras) causes severe seizures and a shutdown of all mental faculties, causing the victim to tear off their clothes and flop over into the missionary position without the benefit of consent. Something like that, anyway.

I get the math just fine; it all adds up perfectly if you leave out most of the important factual numbers and just invent a few of your own.

[LadyHawkAZ]

360. IKR? The lies people will tell themselves...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

March 24, 2003
Seventy-Two Percent of Americans Support War Against Iraq

[LadyHawkAZ]

388. No, it was a snark

I've been in enough of these threads to know better than to take the bait; long and/or fact-heavy posts are reserved for those who I think will benefit from them. I'm not responsible for the voices in people's heads. Those who prefer the hype to the facts will continue to do so, regardless.

Carry on.

[LadyHawkAZ]

460. OK, then, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for a moment

UN reports 2.4 million estimated trafficked persons worldwide:
http://www.unodc.org/documents/human-trafficking/UNVTF_fs_HT_EN.pdf
of which 79% (1,896,000) are trafficked worldwide for sexual labor.

NGO reports 40-42 million in the sex trade worldwide:
http://www.businessinsider.com/there-are-42-million-prostitutes-in-the-world-and-heres-where-they-live-2012-1

Let me know when you have done the math. Here is some bonus reading from the UN Global Commission on HIV (PDF), and what they think of the situation; section on sex work begins on page 36 and includes reporting on the failure of the Swedish model:
http://www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

[LadyHawkAZ]

462. You're welcome to come up with your own figures

...if you can find them, but any that you find are going to be 10x the number of trafficking victims- the most conservative estimate place it in the range of 13 million. That makes trafficking victims a very severe minority in the trade.

And yes ma'am, that is what sex trafficking means- people forced or coerced into the sex trade. People not forced into the sex trade therefore are...?

[LadyHawkAZ]

469. It was never a serious conversation

Had you been interested in serious conversation on the subject, you'd have responded to post #233.

Your benefit of the doubt minutes have now expired. I dare you to read the UN report and start a bona fide serious conversation.

[neverforget]

209. December is my favorite month: Moon Bombing! Ah the memories.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6712126

August should be Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuke month though....

[1000words]

249. Epic thread.

I'm speechless.

[opiate69]

259. Ahh.. The good old days...

They just don't make good flame-fests like that anymore...

[RainDog]

270. omega minimo

it's hard to believe someone could be that stupid and argue for that stupidity with a fierce passion. Is this person here, yet again in another iteration, I wonder?

The moon bombing thread wins all over the place, but "Fo' shissle my missle" is one of the better ones in context. (h/t JVS) And Warren D. is doing the hard work of talking rationally to someone who is too busy defending an indefensible claim to care about anything rational.

And robo50 offers pure concentrated WTF on the thread with this: "You all love killing a deer, or fucking a woman, proves you so "VIRILE"...........hitting the moon with a fucked up rocket, just the same ........you don't have a care, and want to order beef at OutBack tonight."

wow.

[neverforget]

284. That thread wins DU. It's awesome on so many levels!

I just don't think another thread could possible top that one. It's epic.

[Warren DeMontague]

285. iteration?

If I had to go on previous history, that word should be plural.



Those were the old days, when I bothered trying with the ol' rationality shtick. Now I don't think I take those sorts of threads quite as seriously, which I suspect is healthy. The clowns cycle in and out of the big top, but the act never really changes (see above)

and as you can see in that thread, all I got for my efforts was threatened with voodoo hoodoo.

[RainDog]

290. I can't remember the other versions that were here

and no meta blues to look it up... lol.

robo50 needs to write a song... baby got OutBack.

is that person still here?

yeah, I've tried to stay away from such arguments myself. makes DU a better place, for me.

iirc, HiFructose is long gone, but at least he/she had an ethos... or logic.

[Warren DeMontague]

292. "at least it's an ethos"

good one.



I think "manyshadesof" was the last OM returnee I can remember, at least that was generally accepted by MIRT.

[RainDog]

293. speaking of paying for sex

Bunny Lebowski must be hard up these days.

How many toes left on Aimee Mann's feet?

[Warren DeMontague]

294. Jesus Christ on a thermonuclear pogo stick.

After all these years, all the times obsessively watching that flick.... I must confess... I am so, so ashamed...


I never realized that was Aimee Mann. Not until now.

i must turn in my... Something. I'm not sure what.

[RainDog]

304. Faye Gunderson

...was Bunny's real name. Wonder if Marge's husband ever caught any Jackie Treehorn productions?

You knew Flea was one of the nihilists, right?

[Warren DeMontague]

372. Yeah, that I spotted right away, at least.

I knew that movie was going to generate a cult following the first time I saw it.

[RainDog]

429. LOL

I spotted that right away, too! oh, you mean cult following...

[Egnever]

172. Justin didn't get the memo

?w=720&h=480&crop=1

[Evergreen Emerald]

178. Damn there goes my back up plan

[polly7]

203. I was curious ..........

it seems more women than ever are paying for sex.

http://www.alternet.org/story/146531/why_would_a_woman_pay_for_sex
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/real_life/1480752/We-pay-for-male-escort-sex.html
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/women-who-pay-for-sex-men-stereotypes-and-the-erotic/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2401788/Sex-tourism-Meet-middle-aged-middle-class-women-Britains-female-sex-tourists.html
http://www.thefrisky.com/photos/a-brief-history-of-ladyjanes-women-who-pay-for-sex/
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/secrets-gigolos-women-pay-sex/story?id=15644065

[erodriguez]

208. Legalize it. Regulate it. Tax it.

[RandySF]

279. Groucho Marx

The big difference between sex for money and sex for free is that sex for money costs less.

[RandySF]

288. I think two factors are at play here

1. The economy
2. Greater acceptance and availability of porn.

[MissMillie]

309. We all pay for sex

It's just that the currency isn't always in the form of dollars and cents.

[MissMillie]

333. That wasn't sex

It was a violent attack.

And I'm so sorry that it happened to you.

[seabeyond]

341. no we do not. this is so stupid, not you, but this idea. no.

do i pay for friendship, love? do i pay to interact with stranger one way or another? we are kind and we receive.

because i have sex with whomever does not mean in anyway that i paid for it. we wanted it. we had it.

i do not get this concept. why we feel to need that it is a transaction. that there is a giver and taker in the act.

where has this come from?

[MissMillie]

345. except for completely anonymous sexual interactions where no money changes hands....

Whether a relationship is friendship, love, family, or lust, you only get out of it what you're willing to put into it (and sometimes you don't even get anywhere near what you put into it).

[seabeyond]

361. that is true with every action in life. action/reaction. and ew do not say we are "paying" for it.

but, we do it with sex. why? why the need?

no. i do not pay for it nor do i receive payment for it.

that simple. this is a ridiculous concept for whatever reason, people need to make a norm. i will have to think why.

on this board i see so many men invested in creating paying for sex a norm. even though the article is about a small group of men. use to be 17%, NOW 13%. and there is such an investment from the few on here that men pay for it one way or another. what is the need for them to create all women as prostitutes. what is our need as a society to create this. it is ridiculous.

[MissMillie]

362. I have no problem saying "paying for it" with all the other stuff too

No man (or woman) is an island. We all need things from other people, and other people need things from us.

Human nature.

I guess it's not so much my theory that bugs you, but the vocabulary I'm using.

[seabeyond]

363. ya. i think now what i am hearing is how i can refer to it as...

using. we use people and that is not in a bad way. but... i do not hear it as paying. but i gotcha.

[nomorenomore08]

395. These guys should consider that if all women are prostitutes, that means all men are johns.

And I don't necessarily condemn prostitution, on the "selling" or "buying" end, but neither of those is exactly a great thing to be, in most cases.

[seabeyond]

399. there is certainly a power difference in the two roles. and that is why men, SOME men are so

insistent that all women are prostitutes, one way or another. it puts women in their place.

i certainly see a jon as not a wonderful person. that uses others. not a lot of respect their. but with their privilege and entitlement to sex, using a body only defines their masculinity for them and just does not seem to be insulting. or maybe it is. and that is why they are trying to give it to more men than the very small percentage that is. there is a reason they are adamant that the number needs to be inflated.

[nomorenomore08]

402. I think it's the illusion of having power over someone, as much as the reality. Hence the insecurity

that some of these guys display. That is to say, maybe they don't have as much power as they think they do, and this reduction of all relationships to "user/used" betrays their fear of their own helplessness.

[seabeyond]

403. interesting. and that is taking it a step further. what ego says to them, and what

spirit, within, soul, conscious says.

interesting.

thanks.

[nomorenomore08]

409. Speaking for myself, I really hate the feeling of being helpless, powerless. In any way.

And I can see how that feeling might drive some rather ugly attitudes and behaviors, even if (hopefully) not in my case.

[nomorenomore08]

394. "Where has this come from?" Capitalism, I suppose...

[SoCalDem]

317. Bad economy?

or maybe they are spending time on relationships and getting it within that relationship

[flamingdem]

350. I call BS. A report on the number of massage parlours shows that

it's just a matter of the "happy ending" taking over from hard core prostitution.

Thus, the John gets their jollies, some even have regular pretend girlfriends, no matter that they may be in an almost slave like detention if they were brought to the US, but if busted only the women get in trouble.

[oldhippie]

357. I just want everybody to know .....

.... That I restrained my self mightily and managed to not comment in this thread. Whew!

But I see the usual swarm has descended on those that had other opinions.

[BainsBane]

406. they certainly have

Fascinating how many object to the idea that women be anything but objects of sexual gratification, but then much prostitution doesn't actually involve adult women instead the selling of children.

[NuclearDem]

381. This whole industry should be decriminalized.

Not because I have any interest in it in the first place, but it being illegal threatens just about everyone involved, not least the women.

They should be free to report abusive pimps or johns to the police without the fear of being arrested themselves. It's not perfect and wouldn't solve all the problems, but it's more than we're doing right now by driving it underground.

[nomorenomore08]

398. Great post. Selling sex, at the very least, should be totally decriminalized, for the reasons

you stated. When it comes to buying sex, I'm more ambivalent, and the "Swedish model" - legal to sell, illegal to buy - does seem to have its good points, even if I don't agree with it entirely.

[Major Nikon]

470. I'm not sure what the good points are

It failed all its intended objectives and only served to drive the trade even farther underground and made life for street prostitutes worse.

[nomorenomore08]

473. Well, I could be wrong, but from what I've read it seems like low-level street prostitution

has been significantly reduced, while higher-class escort services have been relatively unaffected.

[Major Nikon]

475. It was reduced for a few years

They cracked down on the johns which had the effect of moving street prostitutes out of the mainstream and into the back alleys where they face even worse conditions than before. Even the Swedish government admits street level prostitution is back to 2/3rds of what it was when the law was enacted. Because of the internet street level prostitution has declined world wide in favor of indoor prostitution so there's no reason to believe the law had any permanent affect whatsoever other than to drive the trade even farther underground.

The 'theory' behind the law was that all women are victims and all men are predators so the idea was to clamp down on the johns and offer alternatives to the prostitutes. Not surprisingly the prostitutes rejected the alternatives. By all reasonable accounts the law was a failure.

http://www.petraostergren.com/upl/files/54259.pdf

[nomorenomore08]

478. Then it would seem a more nuanced approach is needed...

[BainsBane]

407. The problem is that in places where that has happened

human trafficking, meaning slavery, has increased.

[NuclearDem]

411. Yeah, I've seen those statistics.

I mean, I know it wouldn't solve all the problems associated with it, but certainly keeping the status quo isn't the best option.

[nomorenomore08]

474. There really is no simple, easy solution. But the "Swedish model" may be the lesser evil in the end.

Not that I necessarily think it should be illegal, in all cases, to pay for sexual services. But there has to be some way of cracking down on human trafficking.

[LadyHawkAZ]

414. Not decriminalization.

Only one place has been able to make a success of that, and they have a comparatively small population. Legalize and regulate, not just decriminalize.

[Major Nikon]

471. The UN agrees

http://www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

[Iggo]

430. Every time I read that subject line, I crack up.

[In_The_Wind]

432. Seriously, men shouldn't be paying for sex.

[Iggo]

449. Still funny!

[Warren DeMontague]

476. I think this article should be rewritten as a math story problem.

"If 20 men pay 50 dollars each for sex on 30 consecutive nights, prompting 15 DU threads which result in 5 hidden posts each, how many hidden posts per sex act occur on a given night?"

[nomorenomore08]

480. If I were a math guy, I'd go for it. But I always did better in the written subjects.

[Warren DeMontague]

482. I'm totally not a math guy.