The "abortion should be rare" argument is thinly veiled paternalism.

[Gravitycollapse]

This paternalism is EXACTLY the source of almost all anti-abortion rhetoric. It's the chivalrous men. The benevolent sexist. The enlightened misogynist.

Here's what we need to know about abortion:

A. It is an ammoral medical procedure.
B. It carries no specific risk of complications not experienced with other medical procedures.

It is a means to an end. End of story.

There is such a rainbow of different reasons for needing an abortion that any rhetoric relating to the irresponsibility of a woman, who supposedly should have taken better precautions, is nothing more than a form of "slut shaming."

I don't want abortion to be rare. I want it to be easily accessible without qualification. I want it to be common if it needs to be common. I want it to be a tool for women to use to suit their needs and desires. Not some false narrative of life affirmation or life destruction.

[gopiscrap]

1. agreed

[lostincalifornia]

2. It should be between a woman and her doctor, period.

[NoOneMan]

3. oh for fuck's sake

I also think quadruple bypass surgery should be rare in a perfect world (and that view rest on no moral judgement of such a surgery).

I want it to be common if it needs to be common.

Sure, but the point is that many don't want it to "need to be common". In a perfect world, access to birth control and proper sex education (for all genders) should prevent its necessity to be common

[VanillaRhapsody]

49. It has always been common...with or without Roe V Wade

[NoOneMan]

55. So there is nothing the state can do to reduce unwanted pregnancies?

Affordable or free contraception? Sex education?

Nothing the state can do to make such a situation rare? Its just common and we should all just accept that, say fuck it, and stop worrying about cost-effective birth control programs?

[Zorra]

194. State mandated forced vasectomy of half the male population would make the situation rare.

But I would never want the state, and religions, having that type of control over men's choices regarding what they do with their own bodies.

i'm just sayin'...ya know?

[NoOneMan]

196. Or even, how about free ones?

Mine was free in BC. Damn smart to do that in my opinion

[Zorra]

197. That seems a bit too sensible for the US to consider at this time.

[nomorenomore08]

68. The narrative, the way we frame things, is important. The reason so much of society

has gone so far to the right, is the success of a bullshit right-wing narrative, of which anti-choice rhetoric is a key part. And if nothing else, saying abortion should be "rare" seems to imply that it's a bad thing, and even that it maybe-possibly shouldn't be legal.

[Tigress DEM]

114. Allowing fellow DEMs to think for themselves is what is important.

I am "Pro-Choice" AND "Pro Life" in the sense that I care about people both before AND AFTER they are born... more so once they have been born (unless they are living in my body or a family member's body. Then I just love a baby belly.)

I think DEMs CAN OWN THOSE WORDS TOO. WE are the ones who fight to get the rights of the BORN met.

AND I understand that abortion is a choice that needs to be medically available because there are many reasons it may be necessary. I am STAUNCHLY PRO CHOICE in the respect that I don't think it's anyone's decision except a woman and her doctor about whether to keep the child unless there is an active father involved and that the pregnancy wasn't rape or incest related. There IS at least one other choice that doesn't get as much attention: adoption.

I don't think that wanting abortion to be "rare" is a bad thing because it would mean we'd be living in a society that respects and honors women in such a way that there could be planned parenting choices made ahead of time and women would be equally paid for their other labors so they could support a child on their own. It would be a REAL choice. We'd have a society where women and girls as well would respect and honor themselves enough to not to rush into sex if they aren't ready.

I'd like to live in a society where rapist are prosecuted and stopped from attacking and brutalizing again. Less rapists, another reason to have less of those kind of abortions.

I'd like to see all the good things that would make our world a better place that wouldn't put a woman in the situation of needing an abortion because I don't look at it like the pill. A fetus may not be a fully viable human but when a baby is wanted it is loved even in that phase because of it's potential arrival into a loving family.

I am PRO CHOICE because it is a fuc*ed up world we live in and many women are left with 100% responsibility and men can physically leave a pregnancy behind without removing it from their own body. I get it. BUT I DON'T LIKE it and you can't MAKE me want to see abortion as something like cosmetic surgery. You want one you get one. Really? HOW fuc*ed up is it that women who have the ability to bring life into this world would treat that gift as if it's worthless.

IT IS A HUGE decision, if left to term a fetus becomes a baby becomes a child. IF we want to be taken seriously AND find common ground to make abortion PERMANENTLY legal and available, we have to SEE the TRUTH of that statement. I think we disrespect women and LIFE itself if we are frivolous about it.

STILL I work for peace and justice because I love life and diversity and children are a joyful reason to make the world a better place. I'd like to see a world that cares for children, maintains decent schools EVEN IN THE INNER CITY and doesn't expect poor people to sink or swim.

Am I dumb enough to think we have a world where we can give in on abortion? NO. NOT AT ALL.

But I have the heart of a dreamer who wants more beauty and kindness and love in this world and less reasons out there to need abortions. I'm not "PRO Abortion" and I don't understand why people here think that has to be a requirement for being dedicated to the cause. It didn't used to be.

[Scootaloo]

106. It's in the framing

Rather than "abortion should be rare," a proper framing is "birth control and prophylactics should be accessible to all"

[Springslips]

183. Sorry posted on the wrong sub thread somehow.

D'oh!

[Nine]

4. How does it compare to forced vaginal ultrasounds?

There are people in this country - lots of people - who would be happy to see us go back to the days of coat hangers and back alley abortions. On the other hand there are people who fully support a woman's right to choose but maybe don't word it quite, exactly the way you want them to, even though they're using a phrase with two decades of use behind it. Which group of people do you think we should be focusing on fighting?

[Gravitycollapse]

7. Actually, the legal but rare rhetoric is, as I've stated, anti-choice in nature.

[Nine]

9. That's your opinion.

But it's been used by Democratic politicians for 20 years, many of whom have done a lot for pro-choice.

[Gravitycollapse]

10. Sure, it's my opinion. It also happens to be factually accurate.

Rhetoric and action are not necessarily the same. It just so happens that a lot of pro-choice individuals talk about legal but rare in order to win over the enemy. That doesn't validate the rhetoric.

[ScreamingMeemie]

17. It was actually dropped from party platform language in 2008.

[redqueen]

22. During that time, what has happened to women's human rights? Our right to control our own bodies? nt

[Nine]

37. Whatever gains or losses occurred had nothing to do with anyone using the word "rare."

This is a manufactured controversy that serves no purpose other than dividing pro-choicers. I don't understand this insistence on finding the most sinister interpretation of "rare" and declaring that this is the only meaning possible, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[KittyWampus]

42. The only ones dividing anyone up are you and the OP'er who fail the grasp the importance of

allowing women to PREVENT UNWANTED PREGNANCIES THAT RESULT IN ABORTION> And you fail to grasp the correlation.

[Nine]

47. Did you mean to reply to me? (nt)

[redqueen]

50. This isn't about one word. This is about ALL the rhetoric which helps misogynists and the right wing

And it does help them.

[Nine]

51. It isn't? Sure seems like that's what some people are up in arms about. (nt)

[redqueen]

59. I edited to add clarity.

And yeah, that word pisses off a lot of feminists and allies. But there's a lot more rightwing- and misogynist-enabling rhetoric flung around in these discussions than just that one word (e.g. 'partial birth abortion', 'unborn child', etc.)

The 'safe legal and rare' language hasn't been part of the platform for five years, but habits die hard.

[Nine]

64. But it's being used to sow dissent on DU.

We'll have to agree to disagree on whether debating the nuances of an officially retired slogan is ultimately more helpful or harmful. I happen to think pro-choicers have enough to deal with that we don't need to manufacture reasons to fight each other.

[Daemonaquila]

73. Easy answer - stop using the term.

If it isn't worth fighting about, then let's have everyone forget that the "rare" term ever was used, and get on with fighting for women. Folks who aren't willing to accept that and move on have probably never been in danger of being nuanced out of a right. Language is very important, and this term plays right into the right-wing agenda.

[Tigress DEM]

136. BS words are words. The power is in the full meaning IN A SENTENCE.

I know what I mean when I say legal but rare and I know what someone who is anti-choice means. I'm a DEM and I'm not playing into ANY right wing agenda by having my own mind and sometimes thinking that DEMs being afraid of a stupid word is well, stupid.

I SAY we get the balls to co-opt their terms and make them mean what we want them to, take our power and never give it back. It worked with teabaggers.

[bettyellen]

185. it sends a mixed and muddled message, if you think abortion should be more readily available

(since in many states access is very very difficult) then say so. More clinics mean more pregnancy prevention services too, it;s not so hard. Stop confusing people with this rare crap.
That is between a woman and her doctor, and not for liberals to judge.

[Tigress DEM]

191. I'm not mixed or muddled at all. Available YES. But I want BETTER than this.

Yes I want ALL the services available and more clinics to provide the services.

But I want a world where girls have even better choices in life. We should not even have to have this conversation so many years after ROE V WADE.

[bettyellen]

198. Agreed, it should not be an issue after all these years.

[Tigress DEM]

116. SO. They say shi* they don't understand all the time.

I THINK we can TRULY get on both sides of the narrative in such a way that even when they disagree with us, they find themselves agreeing with us and seeing the sense in what we have to offer.

MAYBE the reason a lot of women vote completely against their own interest isn't just because of the rethugs "forcing them into it." MAYBE there are women with a devout sense of Motherhood that can't see the termination of a pregnancy as just a procedure that has no emotional component at all attached to it.

IF we could bring abortion into the legal everywhere all the time, but HOPEFULLY unnecessary in most cases ZONE, it wouldn't hurt our cause any.

I certainly don't want to see some huge sale or abortion promotion going on when I go to my doctor. I don't want them to advertise a lot of very personal private procedures either.

[bettyellen]

164. 'some huge sale or abortion promotion going on when I go to my doctor." WHUT?!?!

How about it being readily available in every state- instead of logistically impossible, totally out of reach for many women? Let's come down to earth here.

[Tigress DEM]

192. I support readily available abortions in every state. I'm on earth.

What I'm saying is people are all up in arms about "wording" let's just get it done.

People act like if I don't really want an abortion personally but if it were a health concern, certainly wouldn't want to be told I couldn't have one...

I have a vision for a future where abortion is one of many REAL options available in a society that honors women as equals not props.

But just because I don't think it should be trivialized as if it were cosmetic surgery or a tonsillectomy instead of a decision that SOME people have lots of feelings about I'm getting told that I don't support choice. BS.

All for CHOICE... just MORE of it actually.

[seabeyond]

5. i like sex, but... i am attractive but... i like men, but.. it is having to put something in front

to justify what is about to be said to avoid a certain attack that is there and always has been there, will be there.

[Comrade Grumpy]

167. Huh?

[seabeyond]

168. it would eb a total waste of time explaining grumpy. simply that you say huh,

and have absolutely no interest at all listening to women. i will hardly waste my time.

of course you do not get it. that is the whole point

[rock]

6. I am extremely liberal regarding medical abortions

In particular I am completely tolerant of using it as a form of birth control.

[LuvNewcastle]

13. I feel the same way. Fetuses aren't people.

I don't care how many abortions a woman chooses to have. It doesn't mean shit to me.

[Mojorabbit]

57. I did a rotation through an abortion clinic in the 70s in nursing school

I counseled preop, assisted with, and took care of after. There were no cases in my rotation where the woman had that attitude. It was an emotional experience for every single one that I worked with. Granted there may be women for which this is not true but it is more than just a procedure for most women from my experience.

[uppityperson]

62. I have managed a women's care clinic, assisted early abortions and IVF. There is a wide range

of reasons, and emotions attached. For some it was traumatic, but for most, minimally. There were plenty who felt only relief and moved on without a look back.

Were those who felt it an awful thing "better" than those who just went on with their lives? Were those who came in for 3 abortions in a year skanks who we should look down upon?

No. The woman who had miscarried 1 of twins and rather than waiting for the second to die and miscarry chose to end it on her terms and try again. The 3 times in 1 yr woman now has a teenager, chosing when she wanted to be and remain pregnant. Another woman who ran afoul of "omg it is a babyyyyyyy" "abortion counselors" and ended up having an abortion months later WAS traumatized and still works to stop those liars.

For some, it is just a procedure. For others, it is more. It is not ANY of our rights to tell ANYONE what they should or should not feel. Just to make sure they are able to get this medical procedure done safe, legally, hygienically, in a timely manner.

[Mojorabbit]

65. This is just what I said.

In my experience there was emotion tied to the procedure with the women I assisted. No judgement, just what I observed. I doubt they do rotations thru clinics anymore which is a shame.

[enlightenment]

91. I think perhaps you're being just a tad

unclear.

"It was an emotional experience . . ."

That statement requires some clarity. For how many of those women could the emotion be defined as "relief"? How many exhibited mostly "anxiety" related to the idea of an invasive medical procedure?

You are not suggesting that the emotions felt were related to some sense of a guilty conscience, so I will assume you aren't trying to do that - but what kind of emotions did you see, since "every single one" exhibited something?

[Mojorabbit]

112. I saw

the gamut from relief to utter despair. No one was cavalier about it. Part of my rotation was preop counseling so I listened to the women's stories. They used to do that back in the day and it was to make sure the person really wanted the procedure and general preop stuff. I don't know how they do it now. I am totally not speaking of a guilty conscience. That never even crossed my mind. It never occurred to me that anyone would even think that.

[enlightenment]

148. I didn't think you were suggesting that,

especially after reading your subsequent posts, but the lack of clarity was concerning and combined with the comment about counseling being part of the rotation, made me wonder enough to ask.

I did not ask for nor was offered pre-op counseling (in 1983) - nor would I have wanted it. My decision was made and I would have been appalled and angered if someone questioned it, even gently, so the idea gets my back up. I don't know how it was handled in clinics at the time - I went to a private doctor - but I would hope that today counseling is offered as a voluntary option and women are not pressured to reexamine their decision as if they really aren't capable of making the right choice.

I know that in the many states where opponents are chipping away at women's rights, mandatory counseling is one of the methods used to try and stop a women from aborting. It is wrong.

[Mojorabbit]

181. It wasn't anything like that

It was mostly being an ear and also a shoulder if needed and to make sure the person was not being forced into it, explaining the procedure and what would happen during it and after.
Then preop paperwork etc. It was only a few years after the law had been changed back then and no one was trying to discourage any women from having the procedure. It was nothing like it is now.

[enlightenment]

186. That makes a lot more sense.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

[Vashta Nerada]

26. Same here.

[haikugal]

36. That's it isn't it?

How many times have I heard someone say they don't want abortion used for birth control...well I hate to tell them it is birth control. It's birth control...get over it!!

I'm with you rock...

[Agschmid]

45. Right there with you.

[NightWatcher]

8. I'm sick of all the "situational rights" threads re:abortion

Rights are rights are rights. There are no circumstances or situations where you should get less or more.

Everyone should have access to healthcare and doctors who will act in the patient's best interests. What you and your doctor decide is between you and your doctor.

[redqueen]

60. +1

It'd sure be nice if people would simply accept that it is between a woman and her doctor, they do not get a say, their opinion means exactly jack shit, etc.

[Mojorabbit]

113. That is the bottom line. It is no one else's business but those two people. nt

[hamsterjill]

166. This. Exactly!

It should be private and if it were allowed to be private - no one would know, therefore no one would be passing judgment.

The mere fact that abortion is being discussed publicly is a knock against women in my opinion. Abortion should be available, safe, legal and private.

[MadrasT]

152. +1

[Chan790]

11. Not to be terribly picayune...

but A is a value judgement and thus cannot be stated factually or known. It weakens our position when we deviate by stating values or opinions as facts.

Please don't do the work of pro-lifers by weakening pro-reproductive-freedom positions.

[Gravitycollapse]

16. An abortion is a medical procedure. It is at face value ammoral. Whether or not someone wishes to...

attempt to impose their morals on it is another story entirely and is more an issue of whether or not we should erase the ammorality of the procedure as opposed to suggesting it has always been an issue of morality (which, historically, it has not).

It is, as I've said, a medical procedure. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Chan790]

19. So leave morality out of it and say "It's a medical procedure"

You are the one who brought morality into it by declaring it amoral rendering it a value judgement. There is no basis to ever declare anything factually moral, amoral or immoral. Edit: Morality is subjective.

[haikugal]

43. Definition...

Amoral...

I don't think it means what you think it does.

In this case I think the OP is intending 'something outside morality'...not immoral...that's how I took it...not making a value judgement = amoral.

[Chan790]

92. I know exactly what amoral means...

it's impossible for one to positionally declare something as amoral (or any moral position, including the absence of a moral position...to wit, amorality) and not have that declaration be a value judgement. It's best left unstated altogether.

[Sgent]

101. And as a medical procedure

Abortion has its place, but its not ethical from a medical perspective to use abortion in place of birth control for sexually active women, since abortion carriers a greater risk of complications. Any procedure carries a risk to the patient may be avoided (not always) through use of alternative, safer methods, of birth control.

[phylny]

103. Thank you for stating this.

I'd much rather see less invasive methods of birth control, and therefore don't quibble with the word "rare." See, I'd rather have the cavity in my tooth filled before I have to have a root canal and I'd rather have a root canal than have my tooth pulled. One is simply less invasive than the other, with a lesser chance of complications.

[MurrayDelph]

12. OK, how about this:

Abortions should be

safe,
legal,

and (as a guy) none of my goddamn business!

[Rex]

14. Opinions are like onions.

They can both make you cry.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

15. that's pretty big load of bullshit

women typically would rather not get pregnant than have an abortion. same should be true of men. We should all work together to enjoy sex safely and responsibly.

[xchrom]

18. what the fuck are you on about?

of course people would rather not get pregnant{under certain circumstances} -- but we have how many billion people on this planet how?

you're just being an ass.

[KittyWampus]

33. actually, the OP'er is being a goof. Unwanted pregnancies SHOULD BE RARE don't you think?

This is complex and involves things like education in general, social status, sex education, access to birth control.

[xchrom]

39. shoulda, woulda coulda, 'liberal' blaming the victim horse shit.

people get pregnant -- wanted or unwanted all the time.

[KittyWampus]

46. You have no grasp of the importance of empowering women to PREVENT PREGNANCIES via

birth control (before an unwanted pregnancy happens and abortion becomes a choice)- education- sex education.

[xchrom]

48. right -- i have no idea about education...

reproductive or sexual health...

[Gravitycollapse]

53. I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say.

The insistence that we always follow up "abortion should be legal" with "but rare" is really just a claim that women are too stupid to know the alternatives themselves.

As if they constantly need to be reminded about what they already know. It is in this unnecessary rhetoric that we find the shaming aspect. That is the paternalism I speak of.

[xchrom]

54. i'm in the choir. nt

[nomorenomore08]

72. I am too. And I'm a soloist.

[LittleBlue]

69. Victim?

Pregnant women are victims?

[Gravitycollapse]

21. Let me put it this way: When we talk about the need for bypass surgery...

Is this how the conversation goes?

"Yes, bypass surgery may be needed for those who have certain types of heart conditions. BUT IT SHOULD BE USED RARELY."

No, of course we don't because the real reason for the "legal but rare" rhetoric is not to posit a statement of fact but to impose a certain level of shame upon women.

Do you see the difference that I'm trying to point out? That having an abortion is a greater fiscal or physical inconvenience than using the pill is an obvious reality, not a point of contention. So it goes that those who feel the need to consistently bring up such an obvious reality have less than noble motives.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

23. well, you may have a point that some bring it up for other motives

such as the belief that life vs. non-life is so nuanced and nebulous these days that it can be a somehwat fraught decision for a woman. I am sure if we all educate ourselves and our children about safe, responsible sex and teach boys and men to not objectify and exploit women....it will lead to healthy sexual relationships and will lead to pregnancies only when a woman is ready for the role of mother.

In the case were an unwanted pregnancy does occur abortion should be widely available as an option, and the stigma for women should be removed by our society.

[idwiyo]

31. Depends on where you are. Here in UK it's covered by NHS, so it's no finantial burden.

When it comes to "physical inconvenience" it's depends on the woman involved. It's very subjective.

[KittyWampus]

34. Wrong analogy and why your entire OP is a FAIL. When we talk about vaccinations against unwanted

diseases… see?

Unwanted pregnancies can very often be prevented with access to proper education and birth control.

You attempt to boil this down to "slut-shaming" is ridiculous.

[Daemonaquila]

79. You really don't get the paternalism, do you?

Right there, in your response, you're suggesting a preference for avoiding pregnancy through education and birth control, over abortions. That's a value/moral judgment. It has no place in this debate, except in the bass-ackward yackety yack of right wing misogynists.

If a woman knows about protection, doesn't use it, and actually PREFERS getting abortions if she gets pregnant, that's her business. It's an expensive and more invasive way of avoiding motherhood, but that's a woman's choice and nobody should question it. It doesn't matter whether it's finger wagging about what gawd says, or someone else's value judgment about what's "safer" or "a pity" or "shouldn't be necessary."

[KittyWampus]

123. what the f*ck? Who in their right minds would PREVENT a pregnancy rather than undergo an abortion?

I had an abortion. It sucked.

The idea any woman would ideally prefer avoiding pregnancy rather than terminating one is ludicrous.

And it isn't just "more expensive". It usually involves a surgical procedure that is not without risks.

[Tigress DEM]

127. Suggesting a preference is... a preference. People have them.

While I don't "judge" someone for having an abortion, I am fairly sure that no one is going to "prefer" that to having the control over their own body in the first place.

We really need birth control that is 100% effective without having to go through abortions. Right, the morning after pill. Forgot that one in my list of options.

People make "value" judgements here all the time. We VALUE those who are BORN enough to fight for their rights and say that if Pro-Lifers really were they would too.

I'm not pro-abortion and I don't like porn either. But I believe in the right of people to make their own choices. I'm a Liberal Hawk. I don't always look like every other DEM, because I'm not. I'm me. Don't like it? Find another country because here, at least until they take all our rights away, I have the right to my own opinion and values. Don't need to enforce them on others, but doesn't mean people aren't going to hear what I think if they ask me.

[NoOneMan]

44. All efforts should be made to prevent such situations where both abortion and bypass surgery are...

needed.

Health funds are finite. Any preventative alternative measure that avoid tramatic and/or costly surgery should be pursued with the intent of making the more costly, risky, traumatic surgery rare. You are implying the usage of the word "rare" as some underhanded patriarchial term, which is nonsense. Occam's Razor might suggest the language means just that: people want this last alternative to be safe and available, but rare (because preventative measures are pursued to avoid it from happening). Who wants unwanted pregnancies anyway?

What utter garbage this entire OP is.

[redqueen]

61. "All efforts should be made to prevent such situations where both abortion and bypass surgery are...

needed."

Fucking DUH.

But we don't go around saying heart bypass surgery "should be rare", do we? No, we don't. Because when a medical procedure is necessary, it's necessary. Preventing the condition necessitating it is a separate fucking issue.

By all means talk about preventing unwanted pregnancies - that doesn't stigmatize abortion or help misogynists or the right wing.

But FFS recognize the fact that that bullshit rhetoric was dropped from the platform FOR A REASON. The SAME REASON why feminists and pro-choice activists are banging on about not using it!

Christ!

[nomorenomore08]

75. So when and where have laws been passed making it more difficult to get a bypass

for no other reason than some people think heart surgery is immoral?

[NoOneMan]

86. Why now, they shouldn't. Laws should rather be passed to make them rare by promoting better health

[nomorenomore08]

89. Agreed. But I was making the point, that abortion and bypass surgery aren't exactly comparable

for the reason I just specified above.

[NoOneMan]

93. Find me any comparable amoral medical procedure...

And Ill make the same case that it should be rare as well, provided safer, cheaper alternatives or preventions exist as well.

[nomorenomore08]

96. Yeah, I don't disagree with that at all.

Ideally, any of these procedures should be necessary for the smallest possible number of people - though that number, no matter what, will never be zero. But because anti-choicers have made abortion so loaded as a political issue, implying that women should "rarely" have abortions plays into their framing.

[Sgent]

102. Its exactly how the conversation goes

Did we do everything to try to avoid the bypass surgery -- medications, stents if indicated, change in diet, etc. Have we ruled out other issues, is the patient able to physically come back from the surgery, etc.

Bypass surgery is the last option on the table, not the first.

If not, we do the surgery, then go back to step one with medication, stents, diet and exercise plans, etc.

[arely staircase]

20. first time I heard it was from Ann Richards

"Abortion should be safe, legal and rare" were her words. I am not disagreeing with you just saying I never thought about it that way because I always associate thag with her.

[nomorenomore08]

76. Meaning that ideally, unplanned pregnancies should rarely happen. Nothing wrong with that.

Where the problem arises is when the "rare" part of that statement becomes part of a larger anti-choice cultural narrative.

[arely staircase]

84. rare alone would change the context

definitely

[nomorenomore08]

87. Being pro-choice is one thing. The more pro-choice people, the better.

But the cultural narrative, how the issue is framed, is also important, because it influences the way people think.

[arely staircase]

90. I define pro-choice this way

Are you pregnant? It is your choice as to what to do about it. Should you decide to take the pregnancy to term, th biological father can then make a choice: ask you to marry him, pay child support, etc.

[nomorenomore08]

95. Exactly. And whatever choice the pregnant one makes, everybody else just has to deal.

[NYC_SKP]

24. Abortion should be rare is a truism;a simple concept that can be expressed without attachment.

Clearly, the phrase might be used by some to assign a different meaning, it can be used as you suggest, but I want it to be rare.

Abortions should be rare.

I also want root canals and lymph node biopsies to be rare.

Also, I'm would not agree that it is in every instance an amoral medical procedure.

That's just an oversimplification.

[Gravitycollapse]

28. As I've stated up thread, the attempted imposition of morality upon the procedure...

does not mean it is necessarily an act of moral ambiguity. It simply means someone's trying to impose their will unsolicited.

"Rare" implies, in essence, that there should always be less of whatever it is that needs to be rare. I'm telling you that is an absurd statement. That abortion is more fiscally or physically inconvenient than using the pill is two things:

1. A statement of obvious fact.
2. Neglecting the reality that not every woman who wants an abortion needs it because she didn't use the pill or didn't practice safe sex.

That's the problem. The implication of "legal but rare" is that women need abortions because they were too irresponsible to use prior contraception. And that is why it is very obviously a form of shaming.

[NYC_SKP]

41. You are so wrong, IMHO.

You're addressing some narrow set of cases in which an abortion takes place, and then concluding based on your narrow set that even suggesting that abortions occur rarely, one is shaming.

This is a ridiculous chain of conclusions, doomed to fail as a valid argument.

Women can require an abortion for any number of reasons, including rape, date rape, incest, failure of otherwise reliable birth control practices, a lack of education, and on and on and fucking on.

No, you're blanket statement just doesn't hold up.

Abortions should be rare. Period.

[nomorenomore08]

78. But only as rare as actually necessary. Meaning no woman who wants/needs (same thing) one

should be denied because of any third party's moral beliefs.

[NYC_SKP]

80. That is a given, a no-brainer, understood. Given that, they should be as rare as possible. (nt)

[nomorenomore08]

82. Okay. Nothing wrong with that, I guess.

I still don't like the way the use of "rare" frames the issue, but other than that I think we're on the same page.

[NoOneMan]

52. "...is that women need abortions because they were too irresponsible"

Or that the state failed to provide them with affordable contraception

Or that the state failed to properly educate the woman about their usage

Or that the sperm donor didn't know how to put a condom on (failure of the state as well)

Or that the sperm donor couldn't access cheap enough condoms (failure of the state as well)

etc, etc, etc.....All situations that liberals should strive to improve to make unwanted pregnancy RARE (and thereby, abortions)

And that is why it is very obviously a form of shaming

Frankly, the very bottom line is that I am disturbed that with plethora of reasons that an unwanted pregnancy would occur (very often the root of all such is a failure of the state), you still are inclined to perceive the woman as irresponsible. Its strange. The very foundation of your OP is that "rareness" is some moral judgement against abortion and an indictment of the woman, yet to normal people, its so much more (more often an indictment of the state that people wish to improve upon). Maybe the problem is just you and your perception of this language and this situation

[pnwmom]

144. No, it doesn't imply anything about women being too irresponsible.

It implies that contraception is often too difficult and/or expensive and/or imperfect. It implies that in a perfect world, there would be fewer accidental pregnancies.

And it recognizes that most women would rather not have an unwelcomed pregnancy and would rather not have to make the choice of abortion. I have several close friends who've had abortions, and none of them took it lightly. It isn't like getting your ears pierced.

[Daemonaquila]

83. However, NOBODY feels the need to say it in those other contexts.

Ever heard any sound bites about how root canals should be rare? Politicians somberly shaking their heads and saying that lymph node biopsies should be rare?

Of course not. That would just be silly. Only when it involves control over a woman's body does anyone want to SAY it.

By the way, saying that you "would not agree that it is in every instance an amoral medical procedure" is another way of saying you're not entirely pro-choice. Might as well fess up to being pro-life or at least queasy about women's right to reproductive freedom, and that your argument about the term "rare" isn't coming from a neutral position about medical procedures.

[NYC_SKP]

85. Oh what bullshit. "would not agree that it is in every instance an amoral medical procedure"

Just off the top of my head, here's an example of such an instance:

A woman is forced by her society, family, or church to have an abortion through threat, shame or other force.

You think that's amoral?

Pffft.

[bettyellen]

104. it's the family's coercion, and not the procedure that is a problem.

you really seem to be grasping at straws trying to find an incidence where you can judge abortion as a bad thing- and that is exactly what the OP addresses, sadly this is still common framing.

[NYC_SKP]

105. Better that fewer abortions are needed, ever.

It's a fair statement and medically true.

Abortions are not without risk. I'm not trying to politicize it, I'm just stating objective truths.

Abortions should be rare. And legal.

[bettyellen]

109. Not fair to those who do not have access. Safe and legal are the essentials, counting them

like pennies to be doled out- and saying there could be "too many" is a fucked up judgement on any and EVERY woman who has had or might need one. "Too many" implies you think these women did something wrong or unfortunate, and that somehow society ought to render that judgement on your behalf. I completely reject that notion.

[NYC_SKP]

145. Safe legal unlimited and rare nt

[bettyellen]

161. safe legal and readily available would be more important- wouldn't you agree?

At some point, you need to stop thinking about your Utopia and join us in the here and now- where they are NOT readily available and should be. That is why this "rare" talk is not appreciated- they already are too rare in several states. It is a big problem. Time to face it.

[Sheldon Cooper]

146. He's against day care, too.

Thinks that 'parents' (meaning women) should stay home with their kids, rather than have them 'raised by strangers'.

[bettyellen]

160. Anyone who pretends they don't know less daycare would be a setback for women is full of shit.

[MissMillie]

154. I'm inclined to agree on your first point

Avoiding unnecessary medical procedures (biopsies, root canals, etc) is a good thing. One ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Just because abortion is no riskier than other procedures, doesn't mean there isn't any risk.


I don't have any interest in weighing in on the morality of abortion.

[idwiyo]

25. k&r

[mike_c]

27. agreed, 100 percent....

[we can do it]

29. I want people to mind their own business. I want women to have the same access to heathcare as men.

[WinkyDink]

94. THIS. People need to keep their noses in their own trough!

[KittyWampus]

30. "Slut-shaming" is one of the most overused terms on DU. And ideally abortions SHOULD BE RARE

and the number of unwanted pregnancies speaks to sex education, access to PRE-abortion birth control and social status.

[Gravitycollapse]

32. ""Slut-shaming" is one of the most overused terms on DU." - Or, perhaps, it's just really important.

As slut shaming so pervades society that it happens almost every waking second of the day.

[KittyWampus]

38. Your OP is a complete FAIL. And perfect proof of the overuse of that term.

I already pointed out how absurd your OP is upthread and in the post you responded to.

It says volumes that you totally ignored the points I made about unwanted pregnancies and their link to access to birth control, class, education/sex ed.

[redqueen]

63. It's a bullshit term. By using it, one is referring to the women who are being shamed

as "sluts".

And that's fucked up. Using it reinforces the mindset that there is such a thing as a "slut".

[Gravitycollapse]

66. The reference to sluts is to point out why people shame women...

And it's because they perceive them to be sluts. "Slut shaming" is not an accusation that a woman is a slut, or even that "sluts" actually exist, but that a woman is perceived to be one by society. And society has a certain narrative around what it means to be slutty.

This is the reason why there has been a movement to reclaim the term "slut." To take the normative usage and turn it on its head.

[redqueen]

67. You don't have to explain the 'logic' behind the idea of reclaiming the word.

I'm quite familiar

I also know nobody has the right to refer to a woman that way without first knowing that she doesn't mind being referred to that way.

[Prophet 451]

35. The key words are "if it needs to be common"

Most of us who say this are saying that we want to live in a world when there isn't such a need because of comprehensive sex-ed, cheap and widely available contraception and so on. We don't want there to be a need for abortion to be common. We want unwanted pregnancies to be rare and so, for abortion to be rare.

[sir pball]

174. I'll second that rather than parroting it.

On demand, without question or apology, with no stigma - and, ideally, rare. Not out of "paternalism" or "crypto-misogyny" or whatever the fuck (the generic) you're so vested into reading into, but simply because of what (the specific) you said, the entirety of sexual society, as it were, should be evolved through education and accessibility to the point that unexpected or unwanted pregnancies are, well...rare.

Come to think of it, doesn't "reproductive rights" include contraception, or am I missing something here?

[leftstreet]

40. DURec

[TroglodyteScholar]

56. And just as I'm sure you'd prefer not to have any more knee surgeries than necessary...

...so men like me assume that women would generally prefer not to have any more abortions than necessary. It's not a huge leap, and I'm not telling you what "necessary" means. So maybe direct your attentions towards the people who actually want to decide for you, rather than attack those of us who support your rights and hope that this one is exercised as little as possible.

[VanillaRhapsody]

58. My grandmother taught me that abortion has always been common....

people didn't just start having abortions with the advent of Roe v Wade...My grandmother.....had a back alley abortion...AFTER she was married and had bore 3 other children. She AND my grandfather decided together that they didn't want another child....

THAT is how common!

Even in countries in South America....where there is Jail time awaiting both doctor and patient if abortion is proven....has twice the number of Abortions as the United States.

[Xithras]

70. I've always preferred "Abortion should be unnecessary".

The fact that women get pregnant without intending to, or that some wanted pregnancies must be terminated because of medical issues, is the only thing I want to see change. We need to figure out how to change pregnancy into an opt-in process.

Eliminate unwanted pregnancies and you eliminate the entire "debate".

[nomorenomore08]

81. I suppose with consistent use of reliable birth control, you can make it at least 99+% unnecessary.

But that number will never be 100%, because no contraceptive method is literally 100% effective. So like it or not, there will always be some level of need for abortion. Whether or not that need is recognized by the law.

[Gravitycollapse]

88. Many women change their minds after conceiving. To them. abortion is the method of choice.

Like I've said up thread, it is not always the case that women need abortions because they didn't use contraception.

So the need for abortions will never be eliminated. Nor should we even consider the need to eliminate abortions. It's a moot subject.

[Daemonaquila]

71. AMEN!!!

Saying that abortion should be "rare," or talking about how it's less safe for women, etc. is really no different than the right-wing paternalistic bull involved in transvaginal ultrasound rape, mandatory propaganda sessions before abortion, requirements that doctors have admitting privileges to perform abortions, or even... banning women from driving because it might damage their reproductive system. It's all ignorant, paternalistic crap, and we're done with it.

/rant

[AverageJoe90]

74. Good post, but do I think it depends on the intent of the statement.

TBH, I am pro-choice, but, TBH, my ideal world would be one where abortions are indeed rare.....where rape is practically non-existent(at least to the extent possible, though we may never be able to totally eliminate it.); where people rarely make uninformed life-planning decisions; and one where foster children can always have a really great chance of finding a good home.....

With that said, though, I also realize that, unfortunately, we don't live in such a perfect world; rape is still a rather significant problem(perhaps as many as one in every 15 women, maybe even more.), quite a few people do still find themselves having babies at the wrong time in their lives, and adopted children still face a chance of ending up in a dysfunctional, or even abusive, family setting, and biological children neglected by parents who couldn't handle the responsibility.....

So I too, support making abortion as available as humanly possible to any woman to may truly need, or even desire, such for any reason.

[pnwmom]

118. Excellent post. Thank you. n/t

[AverageJoe90]

126. Thanks. n/t =)

[Lex]

77. Some people act like women are chomping at the bit to have abortions.

And that women must be held back from their unquenching desire to have lots of abortions. I mean, WTF?

[Nye Bevan]

97. Oh, that Ted Kennedy. Wasn't he such a sexist, mysogynistic paternalist.

In 1987, Kennedy delivered an impassioned speech condemning Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork as a "right-wing extremist" and warning that "Robert Bork's America" would be one marked by back alley abortions and other backward practices. Kennedy's strong opposition to Bork's nomination was important to the Senate's rejection of Bork's candidacy. In recent years, he has argued that much of the debate over abortion is a false dichotomy. Speaking at the National Press Club in 2005, he remarked, "Surely, we can all agree that abortion should be rare, and that we should do all we can to help women avoid the need to face that decision." He voted against the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ted_Kennedy

[Gravitycollapse]

98. You're talking about the guy who let his mistress drown in a lake?

Yeah, sounds like a real radical feminist.

[Nye Bevan]

99. Ouch. Point taken (nt)

[KittyWampus]

121. LOL! And you talked about slut-shaming.

[Gravitycollapse]

122. The entire appeal of the Kennedy men tended to be the fact that they were "players."

Handsome players, but players nonetheless.

Not exactly a grand resource for leading voices on women's liberation.

You want to disagree with that? Go right ahead.

[Nine]

173. OK, I will.

Sheesh, now DU has resorted to running down the Kennedys. What are you going to say about FDR? People only liked him because he was in a wheelchair? Abe Lincoln - people were only impressed with his height? Is it so hard for you to believe that a politician can be respected for the actual good he or she does?

[Gravitycollapse]

179. I can recognize the work of JFK without hero worshipping him. He had a lot of troubling...

characteristics be them political or personal.

But what I am actually speaking to is the supposed public allure of the Kennedy family and the Kennedy men in general. They were charismatic playboys and a lot of people, understandably, find that appealing. So a lot of the idolization of the Kennedy family comes from an almost mythological nature of their lives and deaths.

[Retrograde]

100. This woman disagrees

Abortion should be rare. We should have safe, reliable, and affordable birth control - for all sexes - so that there is minimal demand for abortion. In fact, if I were designing the human reproductive system, one would have to take extraordinary measures to cause a pregnancy.

[LostOne4Ever]

107. I see abortion mainly as a clash of rights

To me, abortion is mainly a clash of rights. The right to the woman's autonomy, to her reproductive freedom, to her own body versus the rights of a fetus, that may or may not make it to term should no abortion occur, to continue to live.

In my mind, the woman's right to her own body takes priority. How can you have a right to live if you don't even has a right to your own life? So I always come down on the side of autonomy. Further, I feel that there is no guarentee the fetus will even make it to term or will survive the experience of being born either way. So its rights are limited. Either way, the woman right to her body takes priority.

That said, I still feel that the fetus life has some value. Enough value that if I were a pregnant young woman I "think" I would not choose to have an abortion. Hard to say for sure till you yourself are in that position though. But I believe it is also enough value that I would like abortion to be rare. I also think, like you said, that there are so many reason that a woman might want an abortion that it should easily accessible.

Yes, the proceedure is amoral. Yes it carries no specific risk of complications. But if it were possible to find a way to preserve the right of both the mother to her body and the fetus to live I would support that. If we could literally teleport the fetus out of the woman's body into an artifical womb without risking the life or health of the mother would that not be preferrable?

Similarly if we could find ways to help the woman avoid being in that situation in the first place, I think that is worth promoting.

[p class=post-sig style=margin-top:0px;text-align:center;]

[div style='color: #B20000;font-size: 2.000em'] [center] Not all those who wander are LOST!!! [/center]

[Gravitycollapse]

108. A fetus has no rights.

[LostOne4Ever]

115. If you want to be specific about it

A Legal right is a governmental construct that gives privileges to a person, group, thing, or organization the government deems worthy. A fetus, or any person, only has the rights the government is willing to afford it.

Given your avatar Im going to assume its safe to assume neither of us have much regard for the idea of natural or "god given" rights.

[p class=post-sig style=margin-top:0px;text-align:center;]

[div style='color: #B20000;font-size: 2.000em'] [center] Not all those who wander are LOST!!! [/center]

[liberal_at_heart]

110. I agree the veiled tone of paternalism is there. I don't think it is a bad thing though to try and

educate women to take birth control so that they don't need an abortion. I had an abortion and I promise you it's not something you want to do every couple of years because it is your first line of birth control. I am grateful I had the right to have an abortion and every women should have that right. And the attitude that women who have an abortion are somehow irresponsible is a pervasive and terrible attitude in this country. My husband and I practice permanent birth control(He had a vasectomy), and my daughter uses birth control also. In fact this Thursday she is going in to get one of those birth control methods that lasts for a few years that way she doesn't have to worry about forgetting to take her birth control pill.

[applegrove]

111. If you acknowlege that abortion is a tragedy and ask for it to be rare,

then you try and make it so with birth control programs and such.

[Tigress DEM]

119. NO. CHOICE is about having CHOICES. Abortion is one, there are others.

Empowerment of girls and women 1st best choice.

Readily available contraception and education 2nd best choice that gives power to the woman early in the process.

Fair wages - equal pay for equal labor makes the choice to keep a child a more viable option - if that's what someone would prefer.

Less stigma on someone giving up a child for adoption would also be a good choice.

Abortion if needed, definitely something that must be kept in the choice framework, but there are other options that DO empower and I'm not necessarily PRO ABORTION, sorry it just is something I'd rather people didn't have to go through. It isn't an easy decision to make for someone who loves and possibly wants a child but isn't in a position to care for it.

I THINK we lose the entire WAR if we polarize this issue so badly that we can never meet somewhere in the middle where common sense can rule. Democracy is about the ability to make decisions based on the majority viewpoint without crushing the minority viewpoint under foot.

[Gravitycollapse]

120. It is foolish to assume A. common sense exists concretely...

And B. If common sense does exist it necessarily must be "in the middle."

[Tigress DEM]

124. What we ALL have in common IS somewhere in the middle.

Simply because the far extremes to either side don't usually address the majority of cases.

If abortion were legal and available in every state and hospital tomorrow, there would not be a run on abortions. Anyone who thinks there would be has never had one.

If it were illegal and unavailable in every state and hospital tomorrow, there would still be abortions. History shows us that.

There are just so many MORE choices in between the extremes, choices more empowering and less emotionally and physically invasive that when all decisions are equally available the far extremes would be chosen less often and mostly by people who feel strongly about it. Law of averages applies to so many things.

[Gravitycollapse]

125. That the "correct" exists chiefly in "the middle" is a false narrative.

Used to draw dissenting opinion into the socially acceptable and to marginalize those who refuse to compromise with lunatics and morons.

[Tigress DEM]

131. I didn't SAY "correct" I said, "common" and MORE choices exist in the middle.

Common is akin to average and although there is a true benefit to the extremes to show us real purity of purposes, common sense isn't all that high and mighty and it's what I think benefits MOST people.

There are "correct" choices all along the way, but to find agreement between progressives and conservatives it helps not to run around labeling everyone as either a lunatic, moron, heretic or whatever stupid judgmental label you choose because the goal is to find places where we can agree to find solutions that respect both sides. Obviously I am someone who could have that discussion with someone from the far right without resorting to name calling. I can respect other people's opinions without needed to agree with them.

Democracy is about honoring the will of the majority without trampling the rights of the minority.

[Gravitycollapse]

134. If it isn't correct, then who cares if it's common?

Riddle me that.

[Tigress DEM]

140. Because in a DEMOCRACY the majority rules. IF we have ALL choices available...

the most common tend toward the middle when the extremes are polar opposites.

I don't have to judge anyone's choices as "correct or incorrect" to understand the nature of extremes.

The VALUE of what is in common in the middle is that we can meet there and speak there and agree to be more tolerant and allow more diversity.

[Gravitycollapse]

141. Again, "the middle" does not imply diversity or tolerance...

It just means you're in the middle.

I think a lot of people confuse spinelessness with tolerance. The two are not the same.

[Tigress DEM]

195. We'll have to agree to disagree.

AND don't confuse MY tolerance with spinelessness because that would be a BIG mistake.

[liberal_at_heart]

143. That sounds nice but our society doesn't actually work that way. The middle has simply become a way

for those in power to convince those being controlled that they are free. That way there is no revolt.

[Tigress DEM]

193. NO. They are using false equivilance to define the middle.

If it is 1 centimeter left of the very far right, that's supposed to be the middle.

There are polls out showing a huge CENTRIST population growing and it's mostly in response to the do-nothing congress.

DEMs have ideas but not the drive to push them thru.

Rethugs have the drive to push things thru but no idea what they are doing or for whom.

The new CENTRIST attitudes are about getting things done. Finding a real balance based on facts not rhetoric so it will be FAR away from the current FAR right. It's a natural response to domination by the corporate powers and politicians working to save the actual apparatus that gets them elected.

The corruption and excesses of the '20's and '30's produced the depression. Same story in the '80's and '90's et all. It's going to become popular to be hated by the teabaggers.

[bettyellen]

170. tragedy? says who?

[PeaceNikki]

172. NOT a tragedy. It's a moral & positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, & protects families

[pnwmom]

117. As a woman, I disagree. I think most women would rather not

be in the position to need an abortion, and in that sense we would rather they be rare.

Getting an abortion isn't like getting your tonsils out. For most women, it involves some level of loss even if they have no doubt about getting it (with the obvious exception of pregnancy through rape.)

This is an entirely different issue from slut-shaming. It's just a recognition that we're not robots. We have feelings. And for many women, having an abortion involves some painful feelings.

[Tigress DEM]

132. Well said. nt

[HappyMe]

147. Very well said.

[Spider Jerusalem]

128. I'd say it has more to do with 1800 years of Judeo-Christian morality than anything (n/t)

[Gravitycollapse]

129. The Christian God is essentially the shining beacon of paternalism.

In fact, the general concept of monotheism is likely the bedrock of modern paternalism.

[Spider Jerusalem]

130. I think you mean "patricarchy"

and no, the general concept of land ownership and inheritance is the bedrock of patriarchy. Judeo-Christian monotheism is a religious system that developed among an agricultural people. Agriculturalist societies (unlike hunter-gatherer societies) tend to be patriarchal because settled communities gave rise to armies, led by men; male dominance gave rise to the concept of male-line inheritance; control of female reproduction is all about men insuring that their partner's offspring are theirs, and that they aren't bequeathing their goods and chattels to a cuckoo in the nest.

[Gravitycollapse]

133. No, I mean paternalism.

As in, the ultimate authoritative body, authority in the state or state-like entities (although there are exceptions even to this in the Bible), dismissiveness towards those deemed not authoritative, the assigning of the marginalized to child-like positions.

That is monotheism, particularly Christianity, in a nutshell.

"The Voice of God is Government"

[Spider Jerusalem]

135. It seems a bit ignorant to act as though one has nothing to do with the other. (n/t)

[Gravitycollapse]

137. You mean God and state?

In many respects, the two are not only related, they are the same.

[Kurska]

138. In a perfect society abortion would be rare, because unwanted pregnancies are rare.

I don't think there is anything paternalistic about that.

[MissMillie]

155. Well put. (n/t)

.

[davepc]

139. Hillary Clinton is a paternalist?

[Gravitycollapse]

142. Why couldn't she be?

[JVS]

149. It should be rare. It's a relatively expensive form of birth control and doesn't hinder STDs.

[Nye Bevan]

150. +1. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

159. +1. Abortion must be available, but we still need to be teaching our people to use condoms, and

other forms of birth control.

[bettyellen]

162. it already is rare in several states- due to the difficulty and logistics involved

so why would you emphasize it needs to be rare- when politically, if you believe it shld be an option - the goal would be to make it readily available?

[liberal_at_heart]

165. The goal and the point the poster is making is that it should not be the first line of birth

control. We have to keep teaching people to use condoms not only to prevent unwanted pregnancies but to prevent STI's. STI's can cause infertility and death. I think because condoms have been so successful in cutting the number of STI's people have become complacent about them. If people stop using condoms we could see a resurgence in STI's much like we are seeing a resurgence in illnesses that are prevented by vaccines because people don't think we need vaccines anymore.

[bettyellen]

169. that is an issue between docs and patients- not for Democratic activists to weigh in on. PERIOD.

Stop pretending it is one or the other- we who fight for access to abortion, have also been fighting for access to birth control and health care. It is bullshit to muddy the waters of abortion rights with that.

Fight for expanded access if you care about the issue, and that expanded access will ALSO expand access to birth control. That's what these clinics do, for fuck's sake. Get real.

[liberal_at_heart]

171. You are very aggressive. Do you think you can bully people into agreeing with you?

When people said they thought abortion should be rare because birth control makes it rare people attacked them for saying so. Well, it should be rare because birth control makes it rare. There are lots of us who believe this and no amount of yelling at us will make us change our minds. Abortion should be legal, safe, and rare. I have had an abortion and it was because I wasn't well informed about birth control at the time. I'm not a big fan of the ACA but one thing it does is make birth control more available. We still must keep fighting to keep Planned Parenthood and other clinics open, and we need to keep educating people about condoms and other forms of birth control, so that they can have safe sex and prevent unwanted pregnancies and STI's.

[bettyellen]

175. oh, the tone argument, LOL. Keep pretending that access to abortion is not a problem in the USA

and address other issues (ones that would be SOLVED if we had more clinic access!).

Don't let logical solutions cloud your need to judge what is too much, don't concern yourself with those thousands of women who cannot afford themselves the same option as you did.
Hey, you got yours right? That pretty much sums it up.

[liberal_at_heart]

187. going on ignore. Buh, bye.

[bettyellen]

188. well gosh, if you cannot discuss political issues without injecting moral bs into it, scat then!

[Douglas Carpenter]

151. most women and men do have moral reservations about abortion but still support the right

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/08/15/abortion-viewed-in-moral-terms/

You may think that most people especially women are mistaken to feel that way - but most do.

[MadrasT]

153. Yep. I cringe when I hear that language.

Saying they should be "rare" frames it as something regrettable.

Abortions needs to happen exactly as often as they need to happen. How frequently they happen doesn't matter.

[redqueen]

157. Perfectly and succinctly stated. nt

[bettyellen]

163. safe, legal, and readily available. That should be the goal. It already is too rare in some states

[Iggo]

156. I have a feeling it would be rare if we educated our children correctly.

But that has zero to do with whether or not abortion should be available on demand and without apology...which it should be.

[LibertyLover]

158. I can't agree with that

I'd like to see abortion as a rarely used or needed medical procedure for a variety of reasons: comprehensive sex education, universal access to cheap and effective birth control, advances in medicine that make cures for birth defects and a normal life possible for the vast majority of affected individuals, a social system that provides a mother with the means to care for her children no matter what her situation and a sex-positive society.

[Silent3]

176. Posts like this are thinly veiled poor mind reading

Do you think that everyone who has disagreed with you in this thread is, deep down, paternalistic, and no matter what defense they offer, no one's gonna pull the wool over your eyes!, you're seeing right through them?

You may have your reasons for not liking phrases like "abortion should be rare", but why can't you argue just for that, without the bullshit "I've got you pegged!" crap so many people are pulling around here lately?

[cynatnite]

177. I agree, but disagree, too...

I agree that it should be easily accessible.

I don't see anything wrong in wanting abortions to be rare.

Women need easy access to contraception and other forms of birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

[OwnedByCats]

178. Wow

Whatever happened to the importance of preventing unwanted pregnancies? There is absolutely nothing wrong with educating and providing women with the tools if necessary to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. That doesn't mean abortion should be restricted or not readily available, it means let's do our best to close the barn door BEFORE the horse runs away. If that could not be done for whatever reason, then there is an alternative. Having an abortion is not for most, as someone said above, like getting your tonsils out. I would prefer that women didn't have to make that decision at all because it's a difficult one, no matter how much they didn't want to have a baby at that time, and it's something they are going to have to live with for the remainder. It's not a casual decision and trying to sell it as such looks very disingenuous. Many women will not regret their decision later in life but that doesn't mean they didn't have feelings about it. Then you've got those that do regret their decision, but I still believe it should be available.

[bettyellen]

180. when and where abortion is readily available (and it is NOT) reroductive services follow

but making them readily available - without these "reservations"- is clearly what we need to be fighting for right now.

[OwnedByCats]

182. Absolutely they should be

readily available. I'm just saying that preventing unwanted pregnancies as much as we can is best all around. We still need to have them available, without driving hundreds of miles or crossing State lines. No birth control is 100% and we can't prevent all rape and incest, plus the health of the mother or something that is wrong with the fetus - abortion will always be a needed procedure. Where I live it's not hard to get an abortion, but then I live in a blue state and there is a Planned Parenthood facility 25 miles from me. I know because I had one, granted it was 16 years ago but that PP is still located there. All they required of me was an exam with their gynecologist and I had to talk to one of their counsellors just to go over my options because they wanted me to be aware that abortion wasn't the only choice I had. They didn't push me in any one direction, it seemed like they very much wanted it to be my decision. I had to wait a couple weeks after that because I was too early. They didn't want to do it before 7 weeks. However, I know that is not the case for everyone.

I guess the reason I would rather prevent them in the first place is because in some ways I regret my decision because I've never been able to have kids since then and probably never will. I'm not blaming the procedure or think that just because I now have misgivings that I think it should be taken off the table. I still believe it's important to have it available.

[bettyellen]

184. and so politically, that is the message we need to send- women need more readily available

services, from reproductive health services to abortion providers. More of all of it in our society.
How we would personally counsel our friends or family doesn't- and should not- come into it. Sending a message that there needs to be less of anything when women across the country are hurting for it so badly sends the wrong message.

[OwnedByCats]

189. I can't disagree with that, I just don't

mean that it should be rare as an excuse to have less clinics and less availability. It should be rare from a prevention point of view, but I understand what you mean about sending the wrong message. It's just too bad that some people can't see it for what is really meant by it. If I had a daughter, I would teach her the best ways of prevention because I wouldn't want her to have to go through that experience, but having said that I still would want it available to her if it happened anyway. If you go to somewhere like Planned Parenthood, who obviously provide other services to women too, they teach about prevention and even offer up free birth control if necessary - at least they did when I went there. I understand that in a political setting that could be misconstrued as meaning it should be less available but of course that is not what I would want.

[bettyellen]

190. understood, but politically we need to accomplish an increase in all services

and this language was chosen to appease some RWers, and is co opted by people who are supporting reproductive freedoms with reservations, or in concept more than reality. The subliminal effect s that - we are saying- that abortion is something regrettable rather than often desperately needed. It maybe the personal feeling for some that it would be difficult for them on a personal level. All the more reason we stay out and do not judge for any women.

[JNelson6563]

199. I want the *need* for abortion to be rare.

To do that there needs to be sex education and readily available birth control. I agree with your points (both A & B!) but there is more to it and that is going through the experience. Trust me, better to have reliable birth control practices than to go through an abortion which is most unpleasant and quite distressing.

With all of that said, I also agree that abortion should be legal and available to all women. Will always support and work for candidates who feel the same.

Julie