White House Sees 'No Alternative' to NSA's 'Collect It All' Approach

[marmar]

Published on Tuesday, November 5, 2013 by Common Dreams

Obama White House Sees 'No Alternative' to NSA's 'Collect It All' Approach
Bulk collection of 'metadata' to continue if NSA "needle in a haystack" argument continues to receive support from Obama administration

- Jon Queally, staff writer


Unfortunately for those concerned about the bulk collection of private communications by the government, the Obama administration just doesn't see another way conducting its spy business.

When it came to the question of neoliberal capitalism it was former British PM Margaret Thatcher who famously declared, "There is no alternative."

Now—in the face of growing concern and criticism over the global dragnet surveillance programs run by the NSA and other U.S. intelligence agencies determined to "collect it all"—it is the Obama White House saying, in effect, the same thing.

As the New York Times reports Tuesday, after six months of one revelation after another regarding the far-reaching nature of the nation's spy apparatus, "President Obama and his top advisers have concluded that there is no workable alternative to the bulk collection of huge quantities of 'metadata,' including records of all telephone calls made inside the United States." .....................(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/11/05-0

[woo me with science]

1. Mr. Constitutional Law Professor, my ass.

This mass spying is the shredding of our Constitution. This is corporate fascism, pure and simple.

The United States of America is now a surveillance state.

[Fumesucker]

4. Why don't you care that Snowwald had pole dancers in his garage?

Typical liberal ideologue, obsessing over details while ignoring the really important things.

[woo me with science]

18. We're supposed to repeat it how many times?

My brain hurts and I feel sick when I try to focus on the important things:

We get more chocolate now. And 2 + 2 = 5.

And Hillary has our backs.

[cui bono]

19. More chocolate?

I wish I would've known that sooner. I can remain calm and silent now, nodding in approval all day long.

I'm on board!!!

[woo me with science]

24. Yeah, the chocolate ration has been increased.

Not only has the decrease been increased, it's yummy vegetable oil now instead of cocoa butter.

http://www.today.com/id/26788143

Labels don't seem to stand for what they used to.

[cui bono]

29. I take it it's snake oil they're using now?

On a serious chocolate note, I eat pure cacao chips now coupled with dried blueberries as my chocolate fix. Amazing! The blueberries sweeten it up and so there's no sugar and tons of anti-oxidants. And yummy!

[woo me with science]

30. +1 Could be snake. Might be lizard.

"It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."

"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"

"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like to straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."

"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."

"I did," said Ford. "It is."

"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"

"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."

"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"

"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."

"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"

"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in."

From So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish, by Douglas Adams


*(Thanks for the cacao chip tip. )

[OnyxCollie]

43. +42. nt

[TheKentuckian]

57. I like what you did there!

[cui bono]

59. Excellent. And sadly true. n/t

[AAO]

49. What? No delicious Carob?

[villager]

2. Well this administration, being so viciously anti-4th Amendment, wouldn't

n/t

[leftstreet]

3. But Obama said there's no spying on Americans

Obama To Leno: 'There Is No Spying On Americans'

by Greg Henderson
August 07, 201312:44 AM


President Obama defended the US government's surveillance program, telling NBC's Jay Leno on Tuesday that: "There is no spying on Americans."

"We don't have a domestic spying program," Obama said on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. "What we do have is some mechanisms that can track a phone number or an email address that is connected to a terrorist attack. ... That information is useful."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/08/06/209692380/obama-to-leno-there-is-no-spying-on-americans

[jsr]

5. There can be no nuances when dealing with terra

[last1standing]

6. If this article is accurate, Obama will be a failed president.

Regardless of what good has done, or will do, he will be viewed by history as a failure for his lack of willingness to stand up to a basic threat to our Constitution.

I know the Screamers will be invading this thread soon with their cries of "it's only metadata" and "everyone does it" but they will be wrong.

It is not possible to protect our freedoms by stealing our freedoms.

[liberal_at_heart]

8. his favor ability numbers are terrible right now and this one of the reasons.

[bemildred]

11. Yep. nt

[leveymg]

12. Add "no warrantless intercepts of providers" to "it's only metadata" and "everyone does it"

but they will be wrong.

They've been wrong about practically everything on this subject.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. You forgot the girl and the boxes n the garage

[dickthegrouch]

7. Then they have "no alternative" but to obtain ~375,000,000

Search Warrants!!!!

Mr "Constitutional Scholar", please enumerate, specifically, all the ambiguities in the 4th amendment.

You may start collecting my data when you have a valid search warrant.

[woo me with science]

9. Thank you.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[randome]

10. So much hyperbole in this thread.

• 'Mass spying' equals obtaining copies of phone metadata?
• The telecoms already maintain this data. Having to go to each telecom in the country to search for one phone number would hamstring the NSA’s law enforcement operations.
• Carl Bernstein said it looks to him that the NSA has strong safeguards in place to prevent abuse. I agree.
• Making a copy of a metadata page and putting it into a black box does not equate to ‘spying on Americans’. At least IMO.
• The courts have already ruled that this collection is legal.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[cali]

14. so much overboiled frog in your post. n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

17. Hey..you just pipe down, light your hair on fire and run around in circles with your arms in the air

Join the crowd and stop trying to bring a different viewpoint to the discussion.

[cui bono]

22. No one has their hair on fire, they are concerned about our democracy.

Nice phrase to use when trying to dismiss the different viewpoint you claim to want heard.

Problem is, there should be a united viewpoint when it comes to protecting the 4th Amendment. It's so sad to see Democrats aiding in the destruction of our Constitution just because they can't stand to criticize their democratic president. I truly hope we get a president and some good leadership in the Democratic Party who will actually stand for and fight for the principles of the Dem Party. Tired of this centrist slide to the right. If it continues, in another 10 years the Dems will be McCains and Romneys and the Republican party will all be Palins.

Oh, and btw... hair on fire might better be used to describe someone who thinks that all of Europe's esteemed media is conspiring with the US media and the Republican Party to hurt Obama by timing the release of NSA stories. Or maybe that would be better described as something else... but anyway... glass houses and all that, know what I mean?

[Fearless]

21. There's an old response by Barney Frank

Regarding arguing with a dining room table that comes to mind after such ridiculous propaganda.

[randome]

23. 'Propaganda'? I do not, in any way, consider myself to be an NSA booster.

Not even a 'supporter'. What I posted is just my attempt to put things into perspective.

When someone you admire -Obama- has a different opinion than yours, most people have enough self-reflection to at least consider their own points may not be as...urm, pointy.

That is not the same thing as saying we should have 'faith' in Obama or anything like that. The points I made are valid ones, I believe.

With two very smart people agreeing with me -Carl Bernstein and Obama- I feel on solid ground.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Fearless]

60. Citing those who support your point of view

As evidence of your correctness is hilarious.

[lastlib]

38. uhhh--NSA has law enforcement powers? Just when did this happen???

[randome]

56. Okay, investigatory powers.

But it puts a crimp in other agencies' law enforcement operations if they have to run around the country every time they want to look up a phone number.

The numbers are already stored by the telecoms. Having them transmit their storage into one central, secure location just makes everyone's job easier.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[dickthegrouch]

61. "The courts have already ruled that this collection is legal"

A right-wing fascist court attempted to cover its ass by some hideously convoluted argument around the inadmissability of the 4th amendment as evidence? And you think that was smart people?

Pardon me while I

[Demo_Chris]

13. Look, it's like chess... nt

[bvar22]

15. Just wait until the White House hears from THIS guy!!!!

[cui bono]

20. "Don't count me in on that"

Me either!

Thanks for the clip!

[OnyxCollie]

41. Joe's always been in the minority.

HEADLINES MAY 09, 2013
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/5/9/headlines

Activist: Biden Avowed Opposition to Keystone XL Pipeline

An environmental activist is claiming that Vice President Joe Biden personally told her he is "in the minority" inside the White House in opposing approval of the Keystone XL oil pipeline. Elaine Cooper says she spoke to Biden at a public event in South Carolina last week. Writing for the Sierra Club, Cooper said: "I asked him about the administration’s commitment to making progress on climate and whether the president would reject the pipeline. He looked at the Sierra Club hat on my head, and he said, 'Yes, I do — I share your views — but I am in the minority.'" The news led a coalition of environmental groups to take out an ad reading: "Tell President Obama and Secretary Kerry: Joe Biden is Right." An anonymous official in Biden’s office refused to comment directly on the reported exchange but said Biden’s official position on the pipeline remains to await the final results of a State Department review.

...

Could be why Hillary was considered as a running mate...

[851-977]

25. Whoever finds a quote by a WH offical saying there's no alternative gets a prize nt

[Cali_Democrat]

27. It doesn't exist

Welcome to DU.

[riderinthestorm]

47. Here it is from yesterday's New York Times

" But General Alexander’s deputy, John C. Inglis, who has spent nearly three decades at the N.S.A. focused on the technology of intercepting and decoding foreign communications, told Congress last week that so far there was no satisfying alternative to a government library of calls and, seemingly by extension, text messages and many Internet searches.

“It needs to be the whole haystack,” Mr. Inglis said. If the United States was looking for the communications of a terrorism suspect, he said, “it needs to be such that when you make a query you come away confident that you have the whole answer.” "

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/world/as-us-weighs-spying-changes-officials-say-data-sweeps-must-continue.html?_r=0&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=2&adxnnlx=1383679257-HtRqZe9BLd/d4qMdT9TxOg

[riderinthestorm]

48. What's my prize?

" But General Alexander’s deputy, John C. Inglis, who has spent nearly three decades at the N.S.A. focused on the technology of intercepting and decoding foreign communications, told Congress last week that so far there was no satisfying alternative to a government library of calls and, seemingly by extension, text messages and many Internet searches.

“It needs to be the whole haystack,” Mr. Inglis said. If the United States was looking for the communications of a terrorism suspect, he said, “it needs to be such that when you make a query you come away confident that you have the whole answer.” "

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/world/as-us-weighs-spying-changes-officials-say-data-sweeps-must-continue.html?_r=0&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=2&adxnnlx=1383679257-HtRqZe9BLd/d4qMdT9TxOg

Welcome to DU

[JEB]

26. So to get any privacy I need to give up my computer and phone.

[bowens43]

28. How about 'collect none of it' ?? Works for me.

[LondonReign2]

31. Is that traitor Snowden just trying to get attention again?

[WillyT]

32. "Don't be fooled..."

Responding to a recently introduced bill by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a longtime defender of the NSA and head of the powerful Senate Intelligence Committee, the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Trevor Timm said that the proposal, instead of putting a check on the NSA, would actually codify "some of the agency's worst practices." Link: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/10/sen-feinsteins-nsa-bill-will-codify-and-extend-mass-surveillance

"Don't be fooled," Timm argued. Feinstein's bill "would be a huge setback for everyone’s privacy, and it would permanently entrench the NSA’s collection of every phone record held by U.S. telecoms. We urge members of Congress to oppose it."

From OP.

[woo me with science]

35. Corporate fascists are manipulative liars.

They are not interested in responding to the Constitution or to the people. They are interested only in *managing* our reactions.

How corrupt has our representation become, that we now have to worry about legislation crafted to "FOOL" us?

[ctsnowman]

33. Social Security

funds are being used for this horseshit. So the next time the very serious talking heads in DC tell you we have to cut Social Security, remember who supported this spending.

[booley]

34. I can see an alternative

DON'T collect it all.

[hootinholler]

36. Have a woodchuck cider

You'll feel better.

[lastlib]

37. Well, shit, Barack, I've got one for ya:--

FOLLOW THE GOD-DAMN CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES!! Don't collect ANY of it without a warrant from a court of law!! Read my sig-line if you require any further guidance.

[xchrom]

39. ...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

40. How ever did we cope before we were able to lojack everyone?

[Enthusiast]

42. Maybe the White House should appoint some advisers

from the left side of the political spectrum. We have many alternative ideas that don't cater to the Neo-Con Chickenhawk mindset.

[Savannahmann]

44. Well they have about three years to sell that idea

Then the people will elect Rand Paul, and that will be a disaster of epic proportions for everyone.

[bvar22]

45. We have evolved from "There is no spying on Americans"...

...to
[font size=3]There is no alternative to Spying on Americans."[/font]

At least "they" are admitting it now.
Thank You, Snowden, Greenwald, and all the other courageous Whistle Blowers.
Massive Government Spying/Secrecy and "Democracy" can NOT co-exist.

[NuclearDem]

46. POLE DANCER BOXES CHINA RUSSIA PUTIN LIBERTARIAN TRAITOR SEDITION STOLEN GREENWALD OATHKEEPERS

There, see? No big deal.

[riderinthestorm]

54. You forgot "attention seekers". Can't let a day go by without reminding us of THAT! nt

[pokerfan]

50. If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear...

https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/you-may-have-nothing-hide-you-still-have-something-fear

http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/

http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/06/why-i-have-nothing-to-hide-is-the-wrong-way-to-think-about-surveillance/

[agent46]

51. Bullshit

The people he's listening to aren't thinking hard enough and neither is he.

Or maybe there's just no ratcheting back all the money and long term plans already built into the corporate driven surveillance state.

[diabeticman]

52. My wife just reminded me of two very power phrases that should be etiched in the oval office and

walls of Congress:


"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." --John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton aka Lord Acton


and


Stan Lee's classic "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" which was orginially written:

"...with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!" the 2002 movie gave us the first version and probably more impactful.

[Dreamer Tatum]

53. Here's the phrase they're actually going by

"No one's going to remember this shit in a few months, anyway."

[woo me with science]

55. +1000000

[woo me with science]

58. kick

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Politicians have strong vocal cords.....poor vision.