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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAre we in for a cycle of violence?
I was thinking about the tragic story of the young man who stole his father's truck and the father reporting it to the police. Apparently the young man crashed the truck while fleeing police and when the police blocked him in the young man rammed the police car prompting the police to respond with deadly force.
I'm sure we can find many more examples of police escalating force to the point where a suspect/arrestee is hurt or killed; many of them involving someone who is unarmed.
It seems to me that the underlying factor is the person panics. They are surrounded by overwhelming numbers of large, burly officers who are screaming at them from all sides and moving with speed. I'm told on reasonable authority this is called "violence of action" and it is done deliberately to disorient the individual and keep them off-balance.
But that's the point, the people are already scared. If you genuinely believe yourself innocent of any wrongdoing you are already terrified by the display of force (I'll wager an actual criminal understands the risks they assume and are not as surprised). The confusion of so many people yelling at you will only make it worse.
The police have a right to safety because (in theory anyway) they represent the people. The tactics they employ are valid -- with regards to actual violent criminals.
The problem I see is when they confront non-violent non-criminals. The innocent victim of happenstance is being terrified into reckless behavior that results in a deadly response.
Worse still, as these stories promulgate the tendency to fear the police -- and subsequently react in panic to an encounter with them -- will increase as well leading to yet more tragic episodes.
Law enforcement needs to seriously take a step back and re-examine its policies to balance officer safety with recognizing when they are simply dealing with some poor soul terrified out of their minds.
We are their ultimate authority. This is our society, not theirs. They serve at our pleasure.
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OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Heres the dashcam
It was dumb luck no one was killed by this kid.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)I agree that, in the bigger picture, there are incidents that are increasingly and unnecessarily violent.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)It seems like everyone is out to kill/harm us. Look at the TSA as but one example.
But there are more, from all sides. You're a Muslim? Might be a terrorist. Own a gun? Probably going to kill everyone you see tomorrow. See a guy walking down the street? He is probably going to rape you when he is done with his coffee. That stranger driving through your neighborhood real slow isn't there to see a house for sale and can't find it, they want to break in or steal kids outside playing.
When I was a kid it was pretty much one thing - don't talk to strangers. That was the biggest worry we had. Mom's reasoning was strangers didn't need to talk to kids for directions/etc because there were plenty of adults around for them to ask, so be wary.
No drills in schools covering shooters. We could walk back to the gate with my dad before he would fly off to Korea and such, watch him board the plane. We weren't all suspected terrorists.
Hippies were those folks who dressed in rainbow colors, smoked pot, and complained about the war and social injustices.
I walked around small town Byesville, Ohio with a toy gun that looked real I got on Christmas. Walked from my cousin's house to Grandma's (might have been from one grandma's house to the other, big nanny lived right near my cousins). No one freaked out, half the damn kids there got one for Christmas. I was stopped once here when I was a teen for carrying a bb gun the cops thought was real. They didn't pull their guns, just stopped, asked me about it, drove me home and told me to only shoot it in my yard, even though it was technically illegal as well since I was in city limits.
Now all we hear about is the bad people do. Rare it is that a story about people doing the right thing is on the news. We cover one incident for hours or days. We talk about the upcoming snow storm like it is the end of the world. Everything we eat is gonna cause cancer and kill us.
We are sure we are the next target of someone or something bad, it is like those people who say the end of the world is coming all of the time - we think any minute now someone is going to go postal on us.
No longer do we see the humanity in each other. We pull out the few and hold them up as examples of the many, time and time again, to pimp fear and foreboding. I read papers from all over the US, and in small towns across this country I see good stories. Churches helping out those in need, neighbors helping neighbors, etc. The majority of the people are good at heart day in and out. They just want to live their little lives and have fun.
Seems like, to me anyway, we have adopted a police mentality. Everyone is a suspect, and we are the only good guys.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I wonder who much of this is fueled by media sensationalism. I don't know what we can do about that except become more responsible, thoughtful consumers. I want to know when the police act in gross misconduct but I also resent the "if it bleeds it leads" mentality of journalism.
As for the point you raise of everyone being told to fear everyone else I am growing more and more cynical and mistrustful of those in power with each passing day. I see politicians howling that we fear The Other. Is it wrong to view them askance when they then hold themselves up as the singular solution to the thing they told us to fear?
I've also come to the conclusion that I am willing to live beside (and even with) those whom I may not always agree because my affection for who they are as people is more important. I see too much good to be overwhelmed by the differences, particularly when I grant the fact I am -- gulp! -- Not Perfect.
I know I am scared by this subject. I am scared people will be hurt and fear will grow. I fear we will lose our love and respect for each other...if we haven't already.
Serious question -- How do we heal this?
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)First off, we should know better. I don't know how many times I have said this - but we on the left use the same tactics as those on the right to demonize entire groups of people we don't like. We spread fear and hate the same way, we just have different targets (ie, we use the few to paint the many in a certain way).
We heal it by keeping in mind that every day out there hundreds of millions of our fellow citizens aren't out there doing crazy shit - they are not shooting people, robbing them, plotting to blow up things, are taking pictures not because they are planning terrorist attacks but because they like to take freaking pictures.
We focus energy (money/time/resources) on preparing for the worst, and that in and of itself is not bad - except when it starts to get down right silly. Read over government publications from places like http://publicintelligence.net/ -- we spend a lot of effort on mental games of figuring out how others will attack us. Tracking purchases, phone calls, etc is promoted to keep us safe, which is basically admitting we believe there are a slew of us out there planning terrible things.
One could believe that any minute now we have over fifty million people who will go out and shoot others because a few do so and we tie them all together because they all own the same tool. Own that tool, you are just like the few who used it. It fails a logic test, much like the earth being 6000 years old, but people lap it up and believe it despite the facts.
Heal it? We need a counter balance. One which we cannot even get here on DU in GD on one topic. We should stop using the same old tactics we decry elsewhere.
On the topic of cops though let me say - the bigger problem is the meting out of Justice. Not all cops are bad, quite a few are, but the problem I have with the issue isn't the bad cops (ie, it is not them who ruin my trust in cops) it is the system that covers up for them, enables them, and leaves their deeds unpunished. When you have an issue like that I don't think it is out of place to bring those items to the forefront and when judging such things it is not all of the police I am judging but the ones who are cops who, even though they did nothing wrong themselves, enable the system to allow others to do so.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)And you do it because you seem to put guns on a higher order than other humans. You call folks equal to the right if they don't care for a object while the right holds human beings in mass contempt.
Let me put this bluntly, you have your right to guns. LGBT people don't even have the right to fair employment and housing protections in 29 States including Ohio where your say your childhood was so ultra perfect. Does it cross your mind that when your culture and State hold laws against millions of your own that those millions might not trust you, might even wonder why the fuck you are so into guns as well as anti minority law preservation?
You have gun rights, but your community denies others the right to a job, a home, a marriage. Yeah, poor you.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)I was discussing tactics used, not causes.
Read around DU - we bash Christians easily based on what some do, but decry the same tactics when used on other religions.
Home schooling is ridiculed, and any negative article on them is a firestorm - and any positive one is rife with things like 'yeah, but this one family I knew..."
Guns? I don't own one. But I see the same tactics of painting the many based on the few.
I try, don't always succeed, to be consistent on the principle of not judging the many in a group based on the few in it who cause problems.
How can we decry this tactic then turn around and embrace it? Yes, I did mention guns earlier because that is simply the most obvious use of it here.
I am all for rights for others, recognize they don't have them, and like you I vote for those who want to change such things for the better. And yes, Ohio is not perfect on those things (and many others) but I was not talking about the state but about the attitude of individuals in a broad sense on an issue (fear of others).
We are on the same side, and I would like to think we believe in the same ideals. Don't judge many others because of how the few are shown.
One a few recent radio shows myself and the station owner covered gays in the media, and how most male gay men are depicted. Sure, they have more roles but they are generally shown in only one way that fills a stereotype of gay men in general. The owner is gay, a 'bear' (hence the name of our station), and it just grinds his gears to constantly see gay men on TV portrayed in mostly only one way. Yes, some are more 'flamboyant' but most are not - but that is the image being pimped by our media. See someone who likes antiques and dresses nice and loves Judy Garland? That means they are gay.
The image of gay women is vastly different. You may see some who are more butch, but in general gay women are portrayed as 'normal' folks without all the wild tells they throw out for gay men.
That tactic, using the few to represent the many, is non-inclusive and wrong. And it shows up even on liberal sites - we pimp fear of anyone who owns a gun (own a gun and you are a nut, can't trust you, are crazy confederate flag waving wacko, etc). We have created and promote our own stereotypes on the one hand while complaining when others do the same on the other.
This is not a gun issue. It is a how do we talk about issue issue.
nightscanner59
(802 posts)Are you in Washington state? Just curious.
sendero
(28,552 posts)I'll probably be called to the woodshed for this, but I blame a lot of this sentiment on television.
The airwaves are SATURATED with crime shows. NCIS and those trying to be like it or with their own angle.
In most of these shows, the cops are the good guys utilizing the latest Latest LATEST technology to find the bad guys. It's a joke, as most police depts are not anywhere close to the level of expertise portrayed. And the criminals are a wily WILY smart diabolical when in fact most people who commit crimes are hapless idiots.
I refuse to watch the drivel as I do believe that if every time you turn on the TV you see this scenario being played out, it might affect your perception of the world.
7962
(11,841 posts)Maybe I like it so much because a lot of what you wrote reminds me of my own childhood in the 70s. We ALL ran around shooting each other with our fake guns; and some of us were "lucky" enough to have the cap guns!
And today it seems like the Weather Channel is just salivating that the next storm will be huge.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
ananda
(28,860 posts)... and it's getting worse and more frequent.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The One Percent are impoverishing and exploiting them, too.
I worry about what is being done to culture and training in our police departments. I worry about the police being taught to treat us like military dangers instead of citizens, and our response to fear and hate them. We are seeing more acts of unnecessary violence by police on citizens, which I believe are directly related to training and policiy and culture of the increasingly militarized police departments.
They are being put into dehumanizing uniforms with face masks, like storm troopers, so that they appear like a sea of robots rather than the cop on the beat. They are being given tanks, or something approximating tanks...and military equipment.
I worry that we are being trained and taught to dehumanize and distrust one another. I worry about a dynamic in which we increasingly see one another as different, rather than what we are: all human beings and all part of the 99 percent being exploited by the One Percent.
I worry about being propagandized. I remember the stories of the uprisings in the Middle East, in which a big question was always whether the police would take the side of the people or the government. We heard about mercenaries being brought in, because governments were not certain that the police would side against and shoot on the people they were part of.
The most cynical and fearful part of me worries that we are being taught and encouraged and manipulated to hate and dehumanize one another, because the One Percent fear a world in which police remember that we are human beings and fellow citizens, and vice versa.
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)Who was the guy they shot in the head with a bean bag in Okland
The Wizard
(12,545 posts)dictates an us versus them mentality, and the them is anyone not in uniform. Unfortunately we've become a uniform worshiping society frightened into believing there are enemies everywhere and the police must be granted free will to do as they see fit to first protect themselves and then to conceal any wrong doing on their part.
Are there bad people in society? Absolutely yes, but the idea that taking pictures or other common activity warrants a violent reaction from the constabulary because a law enforcement officer sees things differently than a normal person is not in the best interests of society at large.
We see far too may horror stories of police making a mistake and killing innocent people and their pets.
If you're looking for a totally secure environment stop where you are and go home and lock yourself in.
What we don't need is well armed police with itchy trigger fingers and a view of the world that sees all those not like them as the enemy.
What was that standard line for shooting an innocent man walking down the street alone? It's the omnipresent shiny object, and this chicanery must be checked by sane people entering the field of law enforcement. Not everyone in uniform is a hero.
gtar100
(4,192 posts)It's who they hire and more importantly who is doing the hiring that will make all the difference. Garbage in, garbage out.
It seems, however, that the people who have some sort of axe to grind are the ones most motivated to apply for the job. Our society needs to figure out a way to break out of this vicious cycle.
7962
(11,841 posts)It seems like they hire too many guys who couldnt make it in the military or guys who have this need to be feared. These are the same guys who wear every item they can find at the Army surplus store.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)These things I loathe.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)I read about this.
Paraphrasing: "The father called the police to teach his son a lesson."
Police are not educators; they are law enforcement. Unless you are a teacher inviting a guest specialist to your class, you don't call the police to teach lessons. You call the police to report crimes. The police are armed and dangerous. If the person committing the crime responds to them with anything other than abject submission, there is a chance they will get hurt.
It seems to me that the parents had already screwed up more than once, given that their son stole the car. They screwed up this last time by expecting the police to be anything other than what they are.
I'm not convinced the police used excess force in this situation. Even in the right hands, a car is potentially quite lethal. A stolen car is not in the right hands and the police are trying to protect everybody that could potentially be run down, including themselves. When push comes to shove, if the police have anything to do with it, the criminal driving the stolen car and putting many innocent lives at risk is the one that is going down.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)First, what is the instinctive response when faced with danger? The normal biological response is fight, or flight. Every ambulatory creature on earth does this. The Puffer fish blows up to intimidate the predator, and the meerkat runs like the devil was chasing it.
So lets assume that those who are the victims are normal biological beings. They are trapped, and they are looking around in fear approaching terror. They've made jokes about prison rapes, so they know it goes on. They know that jail is brutal, and they may not be tough enough to endure it with anything approaching dignity. There is plenty to fear, and they are afraid. They look about, desperate to escape. They are shot dead because the cops are morons who pretend that their shouts, which are designed to intimidate, and cause fear, are making the situation worse.
Think about it, everything about a cop is designed to intimidate, and to make the civilian afraid. Black uniforms are nearly universal these days. Why do they need black uniforms? British police wear day glow yellow for high visibility. Six police officers have died so far this year as "struck by vehicle". One can only imagine that it would be part of the Vehicular assault category, but these were apparently accidents, the cop stepped right out in front of and the driver didn't see them until too late incidents.
So wouldn't high visibility make the cops safer? But the cops want to wear black, like our stealth airplanes are painted black, despite the fact that the best color for night invisibility is grey. But apparently tough guys wear black, and the planes they drive must be painted black. Their uniforms should also be black.
So why do the cops stick with the idea that screaming black clad heavily armed lunatics stuns the suspect into inaction? Because they won't give it up, no matter how many innocents die. It is an article of faith, like a tourist to Area 51 believes that Aliens are here among us, the cops believe that black clothing and shouting incomprehensible commands saves his life. Fuck the victim of course, they should have followed the commands of the guy shouting freeze, who was next to the guy shouting let me see your hands, who was next to the guy shouting on the ground, down now. No matter which order you follow, you're going to die. If you turn to run, the normal instinctive response, you die.
rtassi
(629 posts)and I can only respond to the information you gave in your post … with no other frame of reference as to its accuracy. The sequence … Boy steels truck, Dad call cops, boy attempts to elude cops and then crashing truck, then rammed police car … doesn't seem unreasonable that giving the threat not only to the cops (who in general I have historic issues with) but to the general population, giving the circumstances of location, time, etc, doesn't seem to be an un-predictable conclusion to the events.
Boy steeling car … started it …Dad calling cops … escalated it … Boy attempting to flee escalated it further .. crashing cop car … How did any reasonable person expect this to end? I wonder what the Dad's initial intentions were when he called the cops … what their conflict was .. age of the young man … history … a joy ride gone bad, or a larger conflict between father and son? You left out a lot in your conclusions … I think.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)If it isn't it ought to be the last option. I'm a subscriber to the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" view but there are prizes better than violent death.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)The truck backed into the police car, and then took off recklessly and dangerously. I only ever saw a second car after a good while into the chase when he was driving around on the park/field.
Was the shooting necessary? Maybe not, but based on the information they had:
* Stolen Vehicle,
* Dangerous/reckless driving immediately following the the attempt by Law Enforcement to stop the vehicle,
* Ramming police cars, and
* Destroying property
it becomes clear that the driver was acting desperately, he was willing to attack police officers, and he was out-of control. It is not hard to understand why they may have feared for their lives.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
kickysnana
(3,908 posts)Boy Scout leaders destroying a 200,000 year old geological monument in the SW and a young couple of musicians from MN who carved there name on the rock Merriweather Lewis signed and dated in 1813 while the place was shut down during the Shutdown. They were seen, their names were taken down they were told to leave, instead they defaced the MT monument.
I guess treating a generation of children with no tolerance (no thought, no compassion) in prison like schools and hate on the radio 24/7 and the churches on Sunday does have a lasting effect on our society.
AAO
(3,300 posts)
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)Seems to me the current definition has changed
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)He was reckless, out-of-control, and clearly willing to harm anything in his path. He displayed clear intent to inflict injury to the officers with the deadly weapon he was driving.
It sucks the kid died. None of this should have happened, but it's hard to blame the cops after seeing the dashcam video. It was linked up-thread, but for ease in finding it, here it is again if you want to see it:
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)When did they NOT have to identify themselves as "Police Officers" (as outlined by Supreme Court Decisions) as in "This is the Police - Drop the Gun" before they shoot a 13 yr old boy
Or when a Men minding his own business in his own backyard holding a shovel is reason enough to shoot him 4 times.
The incident you refer to is probably justified - I don't know, I really haven't looked into it in any depth.
THERE ARE SO MANY CLEARLY UNJUSTIFIED SHOOTING TO LOOK INTO I CAN'T KEEP UP WITH THE LATEST UNARMED CITIZEN EXECUTED BY POLICE
randome
(34,845 posts)How is a police officer to know who is an 'actual' criminal? The idiot driving the truck behaved like one. Isn't this like saying that only 'good' people should get food stamps or something? How is anyone to know ahead of time?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It's tragic and I wish that it had gone down differently, but I'm not sure what that would have looked like. From the video, the kid was clearly threatening the lives of everyone he passed.
I would not agree that the kid was nonviolent. Irrational, scared, confused and witless? Yes. Nonviolent, no. Absent intervention, he was going to get someone killed.
dawg
(10,624 posts)Children with autism and other conditions can become violent at times, and while I understand the need to protect staff and other students, some systems look to the cops as the "ultimate" disciplinary tool.
But that is just wrong.
Cops aren't trained to deal with special needs kids. Often, they misunderstand the disability and end up escalating the incident until it reaches a tragic end.
Cops aren't there to "educate" anyone and they aren't there to "discipline" anyone. They are dangerous enough as it is without sticking them into these sort of situations where they clearly do not belong.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)I'm far from a fan of militarizing our police. That said, I feel the public demands too much from the police.
They have a crappy job. No one calls them because something awesome is happening. They continually have to deal with the very worst our society has to offer.
But I do get where you are coming from, as I see it myself. This overly aggressive behavior, of an almost shoot first attitude is reprehensible.
Personally, I feel it is a delicate balance, that an officer does need to have an air of confidence and control in any situation, that does keep them safer. But not to the point of a command and conquer attitude.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)40 of those were warning shots.