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kpete

(71,991 posts)
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:42 AM Nov 2013

The Mutilated Economy-By PAUL KRUGMAN — we’ve done ourselves immense long-term damage…

The Mutilated Economy
By PAUL KRUGMAN
New York Times OpEd
November 8, 2013

Five years and eleven months have now passed since the U.S. economy entered recession. Officially, that recession ended in the middle of 2009, but nobody would argue that we’ve had anything like a full recovery. Official unemployment remains high, and it would be much higher if so many people hadn’t dropped out of the labor force. Long-term unemployment — the number of people who have been out of work for six months or more — is four times what it was before the recession.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/UEMP27OV

These dry numbers translate into millions of human tragedies — homes lost, careers destroyed, young people who can’t get their lives started. And many people have pleaded all along for policies that put job creation front and center. Their pleas have, however, been drowned out by the voices of conventional prudence. We can’t spend more money on jobs, say these voices, because that would mean more debt. We can’t even hire unemployed workers and put idle savings to work building roads, tunnels, schools. Never mind the short run, we have to think about the future!

The bitter irony, then, is that it turns out that by failing to address unemployment, we have, in fact, been sacrificing the future, too. What passes these days for sound policy is in fact a form of economic self-mutilation, which will cripple America for many years to come….


… the evidence is overwhelming that by failing to respond effectively to mass unemployment — by not even making unemployment a major policy priority — we’ve done ourselves immense long-term damage…



MORE:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/08/opinion/krugman-the-mutilated-economy.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&rref=opinion&adxnnlx=1383887959-9G6mPRoyOQYJOgXNkPJe+Q&
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/11/08/1254018/-Krugman-The-Mutilated-Economy

51 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Mutilated Economy-By PAUL KRUGMAN — we’ve done ourselves immense long-term damage… (Original Post) kpete Nov 2013 OP
I am getting concerned about Paul Krugman. His level of despair over what he predicted CTyankee Nov 2013 #1
The 1%r's succeeded in convincing unemployed Joe Six Pack cutting Corporate taxes harun Nov 2013 #13
Tremendously sad but really important article from Krugman. K&R. nt riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #2
mama, don't let your babies marry an American riverbendviewgal Nov 2013 #3
K&R. Wall Street profits uber alles. bullwinkle428 Nov 2013 #4
k&r for exposure. n/t Laelth Nov 2013 #5
K&R idwiyo Nov 2013 #6
Kick .... Myrina Nov 2013 #7
They are there to serve the 1%, and they have served them very well. harun Nov 2013 #14
The Oligarchs And Corporations Own And Control The Politicians That Own And Control Us cantbeserious Nov 2013 #18
Warned you we did, listen you did not and now matters are more bleak TheKentuckian Nov 2013 #8
Do 3rd-Wayers even care? AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2013 #9
no...they are to busy picking up the coins the !% throw at their feet. madrchsod Nov 2013 #28
Since "We told you so" so often, will there ever be a time where being Egalitarian Thug Nov 2013 #10
Paul Krugman is a modern day prophet. AmBlue Nov 2013 #11
Prophets usually don't fare well. Remember the legend of Cassandra: raped and murdered CTyankee Nov 2013 #21
I know one way to boost employment. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #12
+10000000 dotymed Nov 2013 #16
+2 madrchsod Nov 2013 #29
craps. For many of us, what he says is essentially that our lives are already over. magical thyme Nov 2013 #15
I think it gets even worse for the future MissMillie Nov 2013 #17
I'm going to stretch this thought out a bit further... Hestia Nov 2013 #42
++ ..nt dougolat Nov 2013 #49
This could all be fixed by electing lots of progressives. Who's with me on this? JEFF9K Nov 2013 #19
First you have to find and/or make some Demeter Nov 2013 #20
Well said!! JEFF9K Nov 2013 #24
Exactly. nt enlightenment Nov 2013 #51
[raises hand] Hestia Nov 2013 #43
What Krugman blogged yesterday from an IMF conference (kind of personal and wistful) CTyankee Nov 2013 #22
GREAT POST! ... JEFF9K Nov 2013 #25
Thanks kpete, K&R Jefferson23 Nov 2013 #23
Yup.....Shared & KnR. FogerRox Nov 2013 #26
wait till obama signs the treaty that will destroy what is left of the usa madrchsod Nov 2013 #27
what is worse is DonCoquixote Nov 2013 #30
The "New Normal." Thanks, 1%. We gave, and gave, and gave some more, and this is how we're repaid! blkmusclmachine Nov 2013 #31
And the "Bail-Out" really was a stick-up! nt dougolat Nov 2013 #32
TARP yes, Stimulus, no. Hestia Nov 2013 #44
True, but a good part of that Stimulus was mis-directed by the RW... dougolat Nov 2013 #48
The government, mostly Congress, has ignored unemployment and under-employment LuvNewcastle Nov 2013 #33
Putting it in the stock market... chervilant Nov 2013 #34
I'll check it out. Thanks. LuvNewcastle Nov 2013 #35
Here's another observation for chervilant Nov 2013 #37
I just got through watching the video. Everyone ought to see it. LuvNewcastle Nov 2013 #40
And playing "catch" becomes "hot potato"...nt dougolat Nov 2013 #50
Title VII of Dodd-Frank was a travesty jmowreader Nov 2013 #38
Dodd-Frank was passed for appearance's sake. LuvNewcastle Nov 2013 #41
Dodd-Frank was beta legislation jmowreader Nov 2013 #46
What's worse is the start up's are being funded by private equity firms and hedge funds flogging Hestia Nov 2013 #45
They try to ignore history jmowreader Nov 2013 #47
"... if deficits drive up interest rates ... But that hasn’t happened." pampango Nov 2013 #36
Rich people are richer, and that's all that matters in this world. Everything else are toys for the valerief Nov 2013 #39

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
1. I am getting concerned about Paul Krugman. His level of despair over what he predicted
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 10:54 AM
Nov 2013

would happen now unfolding before his very eyes must be profoundly depressing to him. I feel very sorry for him because it could have been so very different, if only his advice had been taken and the country could have had another stimulus. We would be pulling out of recession now and doing so strongly. So many people are suffering because we didn't. It is unforgivable for the repukes to do this to this country...

harun

(11,348 posts)
13. The 1%r's succeeded in convincing unemployed Joe Six Pack cutting Corporate taxes
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:15 PM
Nov 2013

is more important than employing him.

Myrina

(12,296 posts)
7. Kick ....
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 11:35 AM
Nov 2013

Why doesn't anyone in the Admin listen to Mr. Krugman?

(sorta rhetorical question, sigh ...)

harun

(11,348 posts)
14. They are there to serve the 1%, and they have served them very well.
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:20 PM
Nov 2013

They certainly know Krugman's policies would be better for the majority of American's. However, this aint a Democracy anymore. Appealing to the majority get's you nothing politically. Appealing to those who hold the big $$$ get's you elected, and keeps you there.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
10. Since "We told you so" so often, will there ever be a time where being
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 11:47 AM
Nov 2013

right will be considered a greater qualification than being born into the parasite class?

AmBlue

(3,111 posts)
11. Paul Krugman is a modern day prophet.
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:01 PM
Nov 2013

Whose well-informed insights and pleas repeatedly fall on deaf-- and willfully negligent-- ears.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
21. Prophets usually don't fare well. Remember the legend of Cassandra: raped and murdered
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:40 PM
Nov 2013

for warning of what would happen to Troy...people who can see the future and warn others aren't loved for it...

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
15. craps. For many of us, what he says is essentially that our lives are already over.
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:25 PM
Nov 2013

"America will probably spend decades paying for the mistaken priorities of the past few years."

Oh, and I just got put firmly into my place by a 10%er whom I contacted about making a private purchase. Funny thing is, her pricing makes clear her target market is the incredibly shrinking upper middle class. Remember them?

MissMillie

(38,556 posts)
17. I think it gets even worse for the future
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:35 PM
Nov 2013

The fact is that all the spending we are not doing now (on infrastructure) will cost more later on. And as baby-boomers age, there will be fewer tax-payers to foot the more expensive costs.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
42. I'm going to stretch this thought out a bit further...
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 04:34 PM
Nov 2013

The 1% see the handwriting on the wall and know we are discontented with the entire process out here. As we all well know, there are paid shills pumping up whatever the talking point of the day is on both sides. They read and see.

Let just say, by design, they know damn well that they are stretching out any type of real recovery, because when we (there's that royal we again) really start winning - and we have to, to much is being said and done on the internet tubes not to be marginally unaware - we do not get future funding for the messes that will have to be cleaned up. There's no there there. Which also means that it is just that much longer for them to scream and shout and pout and stamp feet that what we are doing isn't working, so give the reigns back to "them." Loverly...

Look at the 1980s - we're still putting out that fire as we speak. We were on a way to some semblance of a Recovery with Clinton and we had to live through the Dark Ages of Modern Politics just to hammer home and we do need to stand together and say No when we need to, Yes, when we should. Me included.

Now all that's gone and future funding too. Looks like we're gonna need you whiz kids to step it up and find this decade's new necessary/need/want, so y'all can make billions of dollars and fund true Social Justice projects and pay taxes without having to be asked, like what Dr. Bronner's CEO is doing. The future is your hands, run with it

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
20. First you have to find and/or make some
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:18 PM
Nov 2013

'cause there aren't any sitting on the shelf in inventory.

JEFF9K

(1,935 posts)
25. GREAT POST! ...
Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:55 PM
Nov 2013

" ... I suppose I could have stayed in that life, which would have been really comfortable. But it’s not the real world of economic policy, which is full of people who aren’t smart, don’t know what they’re talking about, and/or are anything but honest. And someone has to take that real world on. ..."

Powerful stuff from Krug. It sums things up so well, and is worth saving.

madrchsod

(58,162 posts)
27. wait till obama signs the treaty that will destroy what is left of the usa
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 12:48 AM
Nov 2013

it`s going to get really interesting in this country.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
30. what is worse is
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 03:26 AM
Nov 2013

the peoplescreaming "austerity" on the GOP side really DO NOT GIVE A FUCK about the debt. They loved it when W. was in, and they willlove it if a GOP wins in 2016. They do not care about the fact austerity has brought Europe from being the next great superpower to a default province of Merkel's Germany.

Only the Blue Dogs democrats are stupid enough to believe there is anythig to this austerity crap. They cannot believe that the GOP would LOVE an America that is in debt to China forever!

 

blkmusclmachine

(16,149 posts)
31. The "New Normal." Thanks, 1%. We gave, and gave, and gave some more, and this is how we're repaid!
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 03:59 AM
Nov 2013
Disgraceful!

dougolat

(716 posts)
48. True, but a good part of that Stimulus was mis-directed by the RW...
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 05:54 PM
Nov 2013

... rendering it even less effective than it would have been, and providing Fox with another "talking point" lie to shout thru their bullhorn.

LuvNewcastle

(16,845 posts)
33. The government, mostly Congress, has ignored unemployment and under-employment
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 06:27 AM
Nov 2013

for too long. All they want to do is cut taxes for the wealthy in the hope that the wealthy will, in turn, start up more businesses and hire people. Well they aren't doing that. They're sitting on the money or putting it in the stock market.

I don't think that the skyrocketing gains in the stock market have been good for average Americans. Why would the wealthy invest in business start-ups and expansion when they can make more trading stocks? Maybe things would get better if the stock market started to lose value. I'm not talking about a crash; I mean a gradually declining market or a market that's sort of stagnant.

I'm not an economist, but I do know that the economy cannot get better until people have jobs and money to spend. People won't have jobs until the people with the money invest it in the growth of businesses. Right now the stock market is where the money is, not in concrete business investments. The stock market must be over-valued because real business growth hasn't been happening much, so the inflated prices in the market must come down to more realistic levels. Is there any way to make the market less attractive to investment without destroying the capabilities of those businesses to grow and hire more people?

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
34. Putting it in the stock market...
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 06:47 AM
Nov 2013

I suggest you watch The Wall Street Code. The uber wealthy grow their obscene wealth via complex algorithms and OTC Derivatives. In 2009, the OTC Derivatives market was valued at $272 trillion, more than four times the combined GDP of every nation on the planet. How obscene AND absurd!

LuvNewcastle

(16,845 posts)
35. I'll check it out. Thanks.
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 07:11 AM
Nov 2013

When they passed the Dodd/Frank bill, I knew then that they weren't going to get serious about changing Wall Street's dangerous practices. I wanted to see them outlaw derivatives trading, or at least put so many regulations on it that it's not worth doing anymore.

They're still basically doing what they were before, and I fear we're going to have the same old problem all over again. We're always the ones left holding the bag and paying for the recklessness of the 1%. Unfortunately, the public wasn't outraged enough after the first disaster, and so radical changes weren't deemed necessary. Things are going to be very different when it happens again. People have a much better grasp now of the excesses of the predator class, and the nest time the market crashes it's going to get dangerous for those at the top.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
37. Here's another observation for
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 08:06 AM
Nov 2013

your consideration. We hear -- repeatedly, and condescendingly -- that the "average person" cannot understand the complex algorithms that drive the HFT that now comprises 70+% of all trading (as if that stat alone doesn't make your blood run cold). We may not have Haim Bodek's massive intellect, but we're NOT stupid. That's one misstep that the uber wealthy will come to regret -- thinking us stupid.

LuvNewcastle

(16,845 posts)
40. I just got through watching the video. Everyone ought to see it.
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:22 AM
Nov 2013

What those people are doing is like playing catch with nuclear bombs. And we're supposed to be the dumb people. At least we can see that capitalism is doomed because it eventually causes us to feed on ourselves. All I can think about right now is how historians will tell the story of our self-inflicted demise. I hope people in the future learn something from this, because we don't seem to be able to learn from history, unfortunately.

jmowreader

(50,557 posts)
38. Title VII of Dodd-Frank was a travesty
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 08:26 AM
Nov 2013

Title VII supposedly regulated the derivatives business, but in reality it did no such thing.

First, it keeps calling derivatives swaps. All swaps are derivatives but not all derivatives are swaps. (Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swap_(finance)) You could, theoretically, trade derivatives for twenty years and never sell a swap - commodities traders do this. It would be very rare to do so, because swaps are good for hedging risk, but you could.

But most importantly, it didn't stop people from selling hazardous derivatives. It is completely legal to create a derivative based on bets against mortgages you don't own (the instrument is a "synthetic collateralized debt obligation&quot and sell it to people. I have read the prospectus for the synthetic CDO the Goldman Sachs scandal revolved around. I really wish Congress would have called me to testify, because my opening statement would have been something like this:

"Distinguished members of the panel, our friends at Goldman, Sachs explained very clearly in this prospectus (holding aloft the document) that what happened to make all these losses happen, was supposed to. The term 'synthetic exposure to the mortgage market' is used repeatedly in this thing. Synthetic exposure means someone bought a huge pile of securities called a naked credit default swap and used them as the underlying securities in this other bond called a synthetic collateralized debt obligation, or CDO. A credit default swap, or CDS, is kind of an insurance policy taken out on a loan, in this case a mortgage. If the homeowner for some reason can't or won't pay back his loan, the CDS will cover his loss. There are a couple of differences between a bona fide insurance policy and a CDS, namely that the person selling a CDS doesn't need to have the money to pay you back on hand - that person will generally buy another security to hedge the CDS - and the person buying it doesn't need to own the mortgage it's written against. If he doesn't own the mortgage that's when the CDS is considered naked. If he does own the underlying mortgage the CDS is called "covered," but that's not what we're dealing with in this hearing. We good so far?

"At this point we have a basic understanding of what we're dealing with: Goldman Sachs bought insurance policies against the default of mortgages it didn't own and had no intention of buying, and compiled them into a bond called a synthetic CDO. It then sold shares of it to investors, thus entering into what's called a 'counterparty arrangement" with them. The way this counterparty arrangement works is very simple: if the people way down on this derivative's food chain make their payments and pay off their mortgages the investors make money and Goldman loses, and if the borrowers default on them then Goldman wins.

"If any member of this panel, if any member of the visitor's gallery, any viewer on C-SPAN, or any of the other witnesses to this hearing believe that Goldman, Sachs, one of the oldest and most profitable firms in the financial world, would enter into a transaction of any kind with the intent of losing money, they need to quit smoking that shit.

"Thus ends my opening statement. I will now entertain questions."

Seriously, though, a derivatives regulation that would have solved anything would have banned all derivatives whose underlying assets are other derivatives (these are called CDOs and collateralized loan obligations, or CLOs) and any naked derivative. We don't allow people to sell houses with known holes in the roof without disclosing their presence, but we allow derivatives dealers to sell the equivalent of houses that are burning to the ground right now without disclosing the presence of the fire. This needs to change.

LuvNewcastle

(16,845 posts)
41. Dodd-Frank was passed for appearance's sake.
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:33 AM
Nov 2013

So much of what the government does these days (if they do anything at all) is theater. They have to make it look like the people we elect are the ones making the decisions.

jmowreader

(50,557 posts)
46. Dodd-Frank was beta legislation
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 05:24 PM
Nov 2013

It was beta than nuthin but there are very good reasons a simple "restore the Chinese walls between banking, investments and insurance; establish a national usury rate of 20 percent and a national default rate of 22; fix the derivatives business; and require prison for gross financial crimes" bill would never pass: the banks paid huge money for the laws we have now.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
45. What's worse is the start up's are being funded by private equity firms and hedge funds flogging
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 04:39 PM
Nov 2013

them to beat this quarter's projection. How long will they really last? For as long as it takes for the Patent to dry? Then they will just be a blurb on the inside page of the Business Section.

jmowreader

(50,557 posts)
47. They try to ignore history
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 05:37 PM
Nov 2013

History teaches us that the greatest period of job creation happened right after World War II. If low taxes caused jobs to be created the postwar period should have caused the greatest period of contraction in history and it didn't.

I've used this metaphor before: you want your kid to get straight As and you want to use money to do it. Would it work better to tell her on the first day of school, "the first straight A report card you bring home this year gets you $20, the second $30, the third $50 and the fourth $100" or to tell her "here's $200, bring home straight As but it's okay if you don't"? Prereagan tax policy was the first example applied to job growth; postreagan policy is the second.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
36. "... if deficits drive up interest rates ... But that hasn’t happened."
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 07:21 AM
Nov 2013
... one main reason we’ve done so little about unemployment is the preaching of deficit scolds, who have wrapped themselves in the mantle of long-run responsibility — which they have managed to get identified in the public mind almost entirely with holding down government debt.

This never made sense even in its own terms. As some of us have tried to explain, debt, while it can pose problems, doesn’t make the nation poorer, because it’s money we owe to ourselves. Anyone who talks about how we’re borrowing from our children just hasn’t done the math.

True, debt can indirectly make us poorer if deficits drive up interest rates and thereby discourage productive investment. But that hasn’t been happening. Instead, investment is low because of the economy’s weakness. And one of the main things keeping the economy weak is the depressing effect of cutbacks in public spending — especially, by the way, cuts in public investment — all justified in the name of protecting the future from the wildly exaggerated threat of excessive debt.

It’s really a terrible story: a tale of self-inflicted harm, made all the worse because it was done in the name of responsibility. And the damage continues as we speak.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
39. Rich people are richer, and that's all that matters in this world. Everything else are toys for the
Sat Nov 9, 2013, 08:46 AM
Nov 2013

rich.

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