Yes, I will continue to criticize the "Gentler, Kinder" pope.

[last1standing]

Let's make this simple, Pope Francis is a big improvement over the Nazi Pope or his homophobic predecessor, but until Francis renounces his opposition to same-sex equality and stops trying to control women's bodies...




I.WILL.CRITICIZE.HIM.



I'll criticize him, I will criticize his words, I will criticize his actions, and I will criticize his followers when they agree with or try to gloss over his continued support for homophobia and forced pregnancies.


Don't like it? Then you can sue me, too.

[dogknob]

1. Screw new Pope-Lite(tm). Pope still rhymes with Nope. Always will. n/t

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

27. Pope rhymes with Nope.

Don't forget (it also rhymes), the Pope smokes Dope!

[demwing]

36. And "JimboBillyBubbaBob' rhymes with

"JumboSillyBubbleGlob."

And "demwing" rhymes with "grimthing"

Uhm...What was your point again?

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

44. Exactly!

Thanks for the chuckle.....

[Deep13]

88. and with soap on a rope. nt

[Glassunion]

2. Okay. Well... That settles that

and stuff.

[cordelia]

3. OK

[1000words]

4. Francis is a great point man.

I suspect the position has little, or certainly less, power and influence than days past.

[quinnox]

5. Fine with me

[BainsBane]

6. Many Catholics share your criticism

Though the Church is such that no individual holds as much power as your focus on the Pope in particular suggests.

[HereSince1628]

7. Just as I will criticize monarchy, even if some seem kinder and gentler

But I'd point out these are molehills about which no one thinks it worthy to challenge our energetic defense.

[pinto]

8. As you should. Yet if your point is to garner support for change, less accusatory works better.

I don't mean accusations on Papal or Catholic hierarchy policy. But broad brush accusations on the general Catholic populations help nothing.

Are you looking for allies and support for change? Referring to some earlier post? Or just venting? Not sure if I get it.

Yet "Don't like it? Then you can sue me, too." seems a knee jerk reaction to some event. We've all been there, done that. Some context would help. As would some constructive dialog, imo.

[LittleBlue]

9. You can criticize him, but

The alternatives are guys like Ratzinger, who never had a reform bone in his body.

If Francis can help reduce abuse of boys, persecution against gays, and increase respect for women, that's an improvement I can support. Progress is better than nothing.

[totodeinhere]

13. You list a mighty big "if." The goals you mentioned are laudable but is there any indication

that he has accomplished any of those things? Or is he just given lip service while in practice advocating the same basic doctrines that his predecessors did?

[Bluenorthwest]

18. Francis has spent years of his life increasing persecution of gay people and opposing

our fight for equality. This idea that he supports LGBT rights is a false one. I assume you do not engage in this deception with intention, but out of misinformation.

[idwiyo]

32. +1

[struggle4progress]

82. As Illinois House approves gay marriage, speaker cites Pope Francis (6 November)

The Illinois House had failed to pass a gay marriage bill twice, but comments by Pope Francis about homosexuality over the summer appear to have had an impact.
By Fabien Tepper, Contributor
November 6, 2013
... Speaker of the House Michael Madigan, also a Catholic, used the pope's words to articulate his own reasons for supporting the bill ... Pope Francis caused international ripples in July, when he warned that the Roman Catholic Church had become too focused on its opposition to homosexuality ... State Rep. Linda Chapa LaVia (D), who had spent much of the summer undecided, voted for the bill on Tuesday, telling the Tribune, "As a Catholic follower of Jesus and the pope, Pope Francis, I am clear that our Catholic religious doctrine has at its core love, compassion, and justice for all people" ... <A>ccording to a poll released Oct. 22 by Fako & Associates of Lisle, Ill., state voters who identify as Catholic support gay marriage by a 2-to-1 ratio. This is dramatically higher than the rate of approval among Illinoisans in general (52 percent), according to the same poll ...
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2013/1106/As-Illinois-House-approves-gay-marriage-speaker-cites-Pope-Francis-video

[last1standing]

24. Ah yes, the "gentler, kinder hatred" I was mentioning in the OP.

Would you ever say "Why can't you be satisfied with only being waterboarded for half as long?"

[struggle4progress]

42. Many DUers have probably never even heard anything about the Pope waterboarding people!

[rug]

47. It must be well hidden beneath the altar of St. Peter's.

[struggle4progress]

61. oh ... i did hear there were bones there ...

[last1standing]

54. Some have never even heard of an analogy.

Thanks for providing an example of how the educational system has failed our students.

[struggle4progress]

62. Maybe they're just too polite to mention anything anal

[Arugula Latte]

10. So you're a "hater" then!

[starroute]

11. And as long as most Americans don't give a crap about the poor...

I will praise anybody who does.

There is something in the Bible about motes and beams, after all.

[cali]

12. yes, yes. It's just all about you.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. And your OP 'I like the Pope So Sue Me' wasn't all about you?

The irony. Only Pope fans get to post what they think?
I thank the OP for standing up for others in the face of the bigotry of Francis. The OP is all about others and how Francis shits on others for his own advancement and how good people stand with the oppressed, not with the vicious bigot.

[theHandpuppet]

93. Only Pope fans get to post what they think?

Well yes, as a matter of fact. Evidence:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4009872

Imagine that.

[totodeinhere]

15. Isn't your OP about the pope also all about you??

You said "Yes, I like Pope Francis. Sue me." So isn't that also about you? It's about how YOU like the pope.

[last1standing]

23. Yes. He is attacking me so it is all about me.

When you have a same sex relationship or want to have an abortion then it is about you. Of course that doesn't really apply to you because everyone must bow to your opinions to avoid incurring your wrath.

The stupid runs strong,
In those who can never be wrong.

[Arugula Latte]

26. Lol. The hypocrisy.

[Vashta Nerada]

50. Your OP was "all about you".

Pot calling the kettle black and all that.

[Cali_Democrat]

86. People are asking you questions. You should answer.

Why don't you answer some of the questions and explain how this is not hypocrisy on your part?

[ucrdem]

16. Your generous weekly collection plate contribution

gives you every right to criticize the pope. Because it would be kind of declasse to make a big stink about it otherwise.

[progressoid]

20. Then I guess we better stop criticizing the GOP too.

Since we don't donate to them, it would be kind of declasse to criticize them as well.

[last1standing]

22. That comment reaches a whole new level of misdirection. Congrats.

I can, and will, criticize a world leader who threatens my rights. If you want to limit yourself to only criticizing those you financially support, go for it.

Make sure you send me my check before you post your criticisms next time.

[ucrdem]

29. The pope is attacking you and I should send you a check. I see.

Do you have these thoughts often?

[Vashta Nerada]

51. +1000

[Bluenorthwest]

17. The President of Argentina criticized Francis's language against gay people there

as 'Medieval' and suggestive of the Inquistion. Francis is an old man who attacks gay people to cover his own corrput organization's actions. This has always been his routine.

[struggle4progress]

45. As Illinois House approves gay marriage, speaker cites Pope Francis (6 Nopvember)

The Illinois House had failed to pass a gay marriage bill twice, but comments by Pope Francis about homosexuality over the summer appear to have had an impact.
By Fabien Tepper, Contributor
November 6, 2013
... Speaker of the House Michael Madigan, also a Catholic, used the pope's words to articulate his own reasons for supporting the bill ... Pope Francis caused international ripples in July, when he warned that the Roman Catholic Church had become too focused on its opposition to homosexuality ... State Rep. Linda Chapa LaVia (D), who had spent much of the summer undecided, voted for the bill on Tuesday, telling the Tribune, "As a Catholic follower of Jesus and the pope, Pope Francis, I am clear that our Catholic religious doctrine has at its core love, compassion, and justice for all people" ... <A>ccording to a poll released Oct. 22 by Fako & Associates of Lisle, Ill., state voters who identify as Catholic support gay marriage by a 2-to-1 ratio. This is dramatically higher than the rate of approval among Illinoisans in general (52 percent), according to the same poll ...
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2013/1106/As-Illinois-House-approves-gay-marriage-speaker-cites-Pope-Francis-video

What hateful bigot that Pope Francis is!

[Elmergantry]

19. Oh what shall I ever do!? (NT)

[last1standing]

21. Post a useless comment, perhaps?

n/t

[distantearlywarning]

25. Um...ok. Good for you?

Thanks for letting the rest of us know.

[hrmjustin]

28. The Pope is not above critisizm. I say go for it.

I like the new pope but I want more than words. I do however understand changes take time, but pressure must be applied.

[giftedgirl77]

31. K & R for stating how many of us feel

He is just another guy in a bedazzled hat peddling the same intolerance the Catholic church has always spewed. The only difference is he dresses it up nicer with pretty words.

[idwiyo]

33. K&R I am with you on this.

[Drunken Irishman]

34. So, will you also praise him when he does something good or no?

I mean, I get criticizing the Pope when it's justified - but just hating on the guy even when he does, or says something, you may agree with? That sounds counterproductive.

[demwing]

35. Will you also praise him for his progressive moves?

Not that anything you or I do really matters...I'm just curious.

[graywarrior]

37. I'm too lazy to criticize him, so I won't

But I still don't trust the Organized Crime within the Catholic Church.

[Deep13]

38. *shrug* fair enough.

While I admire the new pope, I am not going to suggest he is beyond legitimate criticism.

Any lawsuit would fail because of freedom of speech and stuff.

[struggle4progress]

39. Wow! Thank you so much for sharing this exciting news!

[Marrah_G]

40. The vatican has never done anything that was not in the best interest of the Vatican

What I see is a much better PR machine trying to stop the bleeding caused by outdated dogma, abuse and scandal. If some good things come out of it, great. But I don't for a minute think they are doing anything just for the best interest of the people. To believe so would be to ignore almost 2000 years of history.

[Bluzmann57]

41. Zzzzzz...

Why am I even commenting on this post. Criticize away. Who cares?

[last1standing]

55. I agree. Now neither of us knows why you commented on this post.

Especially since you had nothing to say.

[last1standing]

52. I don't.

He should be criticized for supporting those things and I am one of those who does the criticizing.

[JoePhilly]

46. He's not going to turn that particular air craft

carrier very quickly.

But the fact that he does appear to be trying to turn it is a positive development.

[Vashta Nerada]

48. I haven't seen Francis reform anything.

Sure, he may be a nice guy (they say George Dubya was a nice guy too), but he hasn't done a damn thing to reform the church. He's more of the "same old, same old". So he doesn't live in the Pope palace and he drives his own POS car. Big whoop.

Like you said, until he changes anything, I'll still criticize him.

[Savannahmann]

49. The history of progress is baby steps

Take any field you like, technology, medicine, moral attitudes. The progress is always slow, and sometimes excruciatingly so.

Standing there petulantly and announcing that the Wright Brothers flight was inconsequential because they did not invent a 747 would be asinine.

It would be like standing there with Robert Fulton and demanding that his invention produce no CO2 before he announces it to the world. Or telling Alan Sheppard that his first flight in a Mercury Capsule was nothing because he did not dock with the International Space Station. Baby steps is how you reach a destination, not giant leaps. It took every single flight of every single astronaut to lay the groundwork for Neil Armstrong and the crew of Apollo 11 to land on the moon. Every success was improved on, and every failure was tried again. Millions of pieces of data, results from tests and trials all culminated in the event of the century.

Everything is taken in small steps. And refusing to acknowledge progress, even baby step progress, does not encourage further progress, it hardens resistance to the progress you demand.

You of course are free to say anything you want, that whole first amendment thing. However, realize that many will see such comments as short sighted in the extreme. We are not in a race to a destination, we are on a journey to the horizon, and we will never reach the destination. Because it is always in sight, but out of reach.

[last1standing]

56. Remember that the "steps" in baby steps is plural.

When Fulton created his steam engine we didn't stand around saying "Gee, that takes care of everything," did we. No. We weren't satisfied so we continued the struggle for more efficient transportation.

I stated in the OP that Francis is an improvement on the Nazi, but he's not the end result. I'm not going to sit around praising him just because he can say he wants to deny me my basic human rights in a sweeter tone of voice.

I give him his due. He took the baby step of changing the tone of his bigotry from hatred to sympathy but that's still far removed from where he, and the Catholic Church, needs to be.

[rug]

53. Well, that told the sods, didn't it?

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. Did someone tell you you couldn't?

[last1standing]

58. No, they said I shouldn't.

I disagreed with that statement, obviously.

[ScreamingMeemie]

59. I would fight that battle wherever that happened then...

I guess.

It's just not that big of a deal for me. But then again, I left the Church a long, long time ago. Are you a Catholic? What am I missing here? I haven't felt the need to pay attention to a pope in years. He's just a guy.

[last1standing]

65. What you missed is someone telling the LGBT community what to think.

Perhaps this would be a bigger deal for you if you were affected by the pope's belief that you are not worthy of basic civil rights. Yes, he's just a guy - a guy with a voice on the world stage and the ability to influence millions of people.

Mind you, it's probably easier not to listen to him when he's not telling the world that you don't deserve equality.

[ScreamingMeemie]

66. I do my fighting for equal rights for ALL on the streets, where it matters.

Not against a man who is nothing to me and so very many people like me.

I am, and always will be, a straight ally for all of the rights and privileges that so many of us take for granted.

I am delighted that, here in the states, I believe the domino effect is happening.

The Pope has nothing to do with leaning on our Congress critters and our neighbors to do the right thing.

Sorry, but just because I happen to disagree with you, doesn't make me less of a fighter.

[last1standing]

68. Uh huh.

You don't want to believe something so it doesn't exist. Ok.

[ScreamingMeemie]

70. Did I tell you that? No... I did not.

I told you something completely different. I told you that I disagreed with you. I am allowed to do that as well. However, I will not make a new thread up about it because we can do this right here. See? That was my point...that you missed.

[last1standing]

73. That is exactly what you said.

You not only disagree with me, you dismiss my very beliefs. You claim that I shouldn't be bothered that some "guy" tells others I'm not worthy of love even though that "guy" leads millions of followers.

I didn't miss anything you said. You just don't give a fuck about my rights unless I talk about them in a manner you approve of. I didn't jump into your thread to tell you how you were doing everything wrong, so you can stop acting like I'm the instigator here.

You go on and "support" equal rights your way, and I'll do it my way.

[ScreamingMeemie]

75. See? Now that is unkind.

I will continue to disagree with you.

I will continue to "give a fuck" about the rights of everyone. I will continue to ignore what the Pope has to say about anything...I haven't listened to a word the Catholic Church has said since I got up in the middle of a sermon in November, 2004. You might want to clear the red anger out of your eyes and go research what happened in that state in November 2004.

I will not allow you to tell me who I am. I will also not use quotes to somehow demean you. I simply disagree with you. End of story.

You have a nice weekend now.

[last1standing]

76. What's unkind is refusing to understand that I don't have the luxury of ignoring the pope.

You do, and I'm glad you do. No one should ever have to worry that the leader of millions will tell his followers that they're less than human.

[struggle4progress]

80. You might want to set aside your preconceptions and read #45:

#45

[pinto]

85. I'm gay. I have the luxury of ignoring the pope. And recognizing that lots of Catholics do, as well.

The structure and dogma of the church are entrenched, yet the views of Catholics world wide vary widely from the Vatican POV. You have that luxury, if it impacts your life. As do I.

If you're speaking in political terms, I get it. CA's Prop Hate was strongly supported by religious organizations. It's up for review in the SCOTUS come March, though. ENDA legislation has passed in the Senate, goes to the House. Marriage equality continues to make gains state by state. The American public overwhelmingly supports equality. Not as an issue, but a simple day to day part of life.

The church POV is losing ground where it counts - public legislation. And many churches are making change where it counts for them - among their congregations.

Hang in there.

[struggle4progress]

71. You might want to read #45:

#45

[struggle4progress]

64. Some folk are just real sticklers for "If you can't say something, don't say anything"

[last1standing]

67. It's becoming very apparent that you're going to go out of your way to spread hatred in this thread.

I would never treat racism against African Americans as flippantly as you are treating homophobic beliefs by the pope. Perhaps you think it's funny but I don't.

[struggle4progress]

69. You might want to examine my #45:

#45

[WinkyDink]

60. My mother used to rail about her priest's mentioning abortion. I told her there were Protestant

churches she could attend.

[dionysus]

63. knock yourself out. i think it's all fairy tales anyway.

[last1standing]

77. Unfortunately, this story often ends with gay-bashing and back alley abortions.

And Francis continues to tell these tales, just in a softer voice.

[dionysus]

79. good point. luckily religion is on a slow decline.

[last1standing]

83. Yes, but far too slow for many of us.

It's amazing what the desire to worship a sky monster does to people. Just looking at this thread, it's sad to see how many "liberals" are willing to gloss over the fact that the new pope still wants to treat gays and women as inferiors.

Women forced into illegal abortions in Texas aren't going to be won over by the fact that he kissed a guy with boils. Homosexuals worried about being hanged for loving "the wrong person" in Uganda aren't seeing the benefit of hearing that the new pope suggested not focusing on gay issues so much.

[dionysus]

84. it's too bad religion in practice is different from what it's supposed to be. Jesus' message,

whether he ever existed or not, boils down to "don't be an asshole."

yet religion has been used over and over again as a reason to kill or hate. doesn't make sense does it?

[struggle4progress]

81. You might want to set aside your preconceptions and read #45:

#45

[Texasgal]

72. Okay...so?

All this drama over the pope on DU is so silly.

Support him? Criticize him? Who cares?

This whole brouhaha is bordering on ridiculousness!

[840high]

74. I don't care what

you do - anymore than you should care that I like this Pope.

[last1standing]

78. I'm going to suggest you take your own advice.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024008788#post26

[JoeyT]

87. People are trying to whitewash here and you aren't helping.

For all that people claim to disagree with the pope about his positions on LGBT rights and abortion, they have a funny way of showing it. Pretending it doesn't exist or mocking people that think it's a problem doesn't look like disagreeing. It looks like trying to shut down or derail discussion because acting as an unofficial PR arm of a religion is more important than bodily autonomy or LGBT rights.

Remember women and LGBT people, your rights are important to us! Unless you're ruining a good narrative, in which case you can jolly well go piss up a rope, because progress!

[Deep13]

89. No.

There's no whitewash. We all know what the R.C. Church is and some of us even know its actual history (as opposed to the Protestant and Marxist narratives). I'm not a Catholic or any kind of Christian because I do not believe in a supernatural god. Consequently, nothing Francis says will cause me to go back to (a different) church. Still, he has provided a far better example of what many consider to be Christian virtues than many of his modern predecessors, and especially Joseph Razinger, a.k.a. Pope Nazi II. The RC Church is an ancient institution and it is not going to give up its historic prejudices overnight. Maybe it never will, but that should not prevent us from giving the devil his due. As a non-Catholic, I really don't care how they run their church. I will leave it to the Catholics to decide if they are going to stick to a priesthood of celibate men only or whether or not they will recognize gay marriages. So far, they do not recognize remarriage after divorce. As long as membership is voluntary, I have no horse in that race. I do, of course, object to any religious institution lobbying for secular laws solely on the basis of a theological opinion.

[davidpdx]

90. I'm not Catholic, but have attended Catholic services a few times

I don't like the Catholic Church's stance on many issues. The previous Pope seemed like a hard-liner. For me, the jury is still out on the current Pope. I don't know a lot about him, but I'm interested to see what he does. Actions speak louder than words.

[Demo_Chris]

91. Yep. I will continue to condemn the pedo champion. nt

[rug]

92. Here, find a Mass to picket.

http://www.masstimes.org/