Centrism... Is Basically Saying... You're A Reagan Democrat...

[WillyT]

Choose a fucking side, already.

[Chan790]

1. Where I grew up in Connecticut, we had a name for Reagan Democrats.

Republican.

[99Forever]

2. The only thing more contemptable than a Teabagger...

...is a Republican that claims to be a Democrat.

[Doctor_J]

3. I guess I'd be OK with actual centrists

right now you have people who are in favor of drone murder, insurance mandates, SS cuts, torture, intervention in Syria, TPP, union-busting, and school corporatization calling themselves "centrists". They're actually far right wingers by reasonable standards.

But you're right. They really need to pick a side.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

33. I'm going to borrow your list.

[Doctor_J]

58. I guess being against compulsory pregnancy and for a $9.00 minimum wage offsets the other stuff

But I don't think the party can survive with such policies. We saw in 2010 what happens when indies and "hope"fuls figure out that the DC dems don't share their politics. I will vote for whatever "D"'s are my ballot every time, but the casuals will not show up unless they feel like their votes mean something.

[RC]

55. And that is just on Democratic Underground.

[riqster]

4. Horse-fucking-shit.

Centrism (to me) is nothing but the rejection of extremism. And I pick the Dem side, and always have. You can be a Centrist AND a strong supporter of Democrats.

After the way the "news" media has falsely portrayed the Left, I can't believe that anyone there would buy the bullshit media portrayals of Centrists.

[WillyT]

6. Ok... Question... Which Republican Ideas/Policies Do You Support ???

Thanks in advance.

[riqster]

13. Nary a one.

Like I said, I reject extremism. I support pretty much all liberal policies like national health care and such: but I am not in favor of a violent revolution, government shutdown, sitting out an election, or other such extremist tactics, to achieve those goals. The people who get hurt the most in such actions are the poor, the young, the old, the sick, and the powerless. Damned if I will abandon a centrist approach for a the the extremist methods and have that blood on my hands.

Keep in mind, there are more axes than Rep-Dem: there are Left-Right, rich-poor, authoritarian-libertarian, and so on. To assume that a person occupies a position on one particular axis is shallow and simplistic. We here at DU, according to the TOS, are liberals and/or supporters of Dems; and regardless of our position on a line of any sort, we all have a place here to make "democracy safe for the world", as Walt Kelly said.

Centrism has, I daresay, as many definitions as "liberalism" or any other ism. The important thing is to ASK an adherent of a particular belief or political group what THEY think it means, and not project our own preconceptions upon them.

[WillyT]

16. Very Thoughtful Post... Thank You... But...

Please tell me who the left-wingers are who want violent revolution?

The Symbionese Liberation Army has been dead since the 1970's.

And PETA, Anarchists, and the "Eco-Terrorists"...

I BELIEVE... are Apolitical... they have no quarter with the status-quo.

Therefore... are neither left nor right.

So where do you see this violent Leftist paradigm?

[riqster]

20. I mentioned a variety of extremist tactics and stances,

Not all of which involved violence. Also, I did not limit my critique to the extremist Left: Extremism means anyone on the extreme end of any axis.

Sitting out an election means that the other side can win (or steal) it, to the detriment of the majority. The extremist Left have done this in recent years. Shutting down the government injures the vulnerable. The extremist Right have done this. The Right have done more with violence in the past decades. And fuck anyone who did any of these things.

Fuck them for injuring the vulnerable in the pursuit of their own political ends. The term "sensible center " has a lot of truth in it. I'd also say that the persuasive, incrementalist, compassionate, considered approach is best overall.

[Fumesucker]

23. It's the moderate centrists who "sit out" elections

I wonder why so many self avowed "centrists" love to repeat the lie that it's the left who don't vote?

[riqster]

25. Stats please?

An interesting post. I 'd like to see you support it.

[Fumesucker]

32. Eh, you're asking for evidence that you didn't bother to supply for your claim?

What a surprise!

[riqster]

42. And your answer is at least as surprising.

[LondonReign2]

43. "Sitting out an election ...The extremist Left have done this in recent years"

False.

We've been over this numerous times.

[Doctor_J]

47. This is a lie

The extremist Left have (sat out elections) in recent years

Posts that include this should be hidden IMO. It was the newbies who sat out because the dems betrayed so many of their campaign promises that they knew they'd been conned. Asking someone who thought they voted for SP HC, support of labor, strengthening of public schools, support of teachers, expansion of SS and Medicare, and so forth, to come back out after the way Obama, Pelosi, and Reid screwed up in 2009-2010 is wishful thinking.

[riqster]

60. Self-contradictory.

You start by saying that the Left don't sit out, and then end by explaining why they did.

[myrna minx]

49. From a thread by neverforget: 2010 midterm voter turnout: Who gets the blame? Independents

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023763623

You may find this throught provoking. I find the nebulously defined "extreme left" is on the receiving end of much unsubstantiated blame. In 2010 the "left" didn't stay home.

[Laelth]

54. Hear, hear! n/t

-Laelth

[riqster]

62. And in 2000?

Or will you attempt to say that it was Centrists who backed Nader?

And that it was the Centrists who bashed Gore for being too, well, Centrist?

Yeah, right.

[myrna minx]

63. You had mentioned the "extremist Left" had done this in "recent years".

The most 'common wisdom' around here is that liberals - or the nebulously defined (just what positions makes someone the) "extreme left" stayed home in 2010 and thus enabled the rise of the 'baggers. I presented evidence to the contrary.

I'm not going to get into a 2000 Supreme Court/voter caging/Nader argument go 'round. It went round and round in circles at the inception of DU and I have a feeling that that's what we would have here.

[riqster]

64. Tweaking a definition to suit one's purpose is not impressive,

"Common" is one example of so doing.

[myrna minx]

65. I presented the evidence that demonstrated that the "left" didn't sit out the 2010 midterm.

In fact their turnout was the same as 2006 when Nancy Pelosi won the gavel. It was the centrist/moderate independents who decided the fate of the 2010 mid-term.

[riqster]

66. And I never said "2010".

You chose to cherry-pick that year. That does not refute my point.

[myrna minx]

67. You said the "extremist left" sat out elections in recent years. The most recent contentious

election where people make that claim is the 2010 mid-term. It was reasonable to conclude that was the election that you were referring to when referencing "in recent years". I provided evidence to the contrary. In fact, as I said, the left voted in the same numbers as they did in 2006, when Pelosi won the gavel. So the left didn't sit out 2012, 2010, 2008, 2006, 2004, 2002 - which leaves us with 2000.

2000 - an election that had so many working parts from nefarious quarters such as butterfly ballots, voter caging, Brooks Brothers "riots" and the Supreme Court as well as Nader. Please refer to Greg Palast's magnificent reporting on the grand theft of the 2000 Election. Here's one link.

http://www.gregpalast.com/florida-by-the-numbersal-gore-won-florida-in-2000-by-77000-votes/


Actually, working our way backward to 1984 - it could be said that it was DFLers in Minnesota as well as the "extremist left" who were the folks who voted for Mondale and Ferraro - the moderates and centrists gave us Reagan.

[TBF]

61. "Extremist Leftists" - where?

If you can find any please let me know. I'd love to talk to them.

[Nye Bevan]

5. I choose Barack Obama followed by Hillary!

Take from that whatever you like!

[bigwillq]

9. So you're a republican?

[Nye Bevan]

12. If you consider Barack Obama and Hillary to be Republicans,

then yes, by your definition I am indeed a proud Republican!

[bigwillq]

14. Good to know

[Nye Bevan]

15. I aim to please! (nt)

[reddread]

7. at least they get a choice

freedom isnt free, you know?

[hrmjustin]

8. The fact is people sometimes have a mix of views that are both left and right.

People can be centrists all they like, but on core Democratic party issues I personally will not go along with compromising.

[NYC_SKP]

10. Shit. We're Gonna Need a New Candidate for 2016!!!

Get to work!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

29. I think that we're going to get played again.

[IrishAyes]

11. Sticks and stones, buddy. You don't get to label everyone that way.

Unless you're knocking blue dogs, of course! I don't much care what you say about them. Trouble is, most of the most extreme left thinks it's better than anyone else, and good old fashioned liberals get painted with the tar brush they don't deserve. You call some people 'centrist' who don't belong in that category and you also are wrong about those who do either belong there or work there because it's the most effective way of nudging and pushing the country leftward. But just disagreeing with our own extremists doesn't make us 'lesser than thou'.

[WillyT]

18. And I Keep Asking People To Identify The "Extreme" Left... None Have...

And BTW... I agree with you on the Blue-Dogs.

[libdem4life]

19. Single payer insurance, fully funded education up to 16 years, cut the Defense Budget by half

... bring back the WPA ...shore up our physical infrastructure and put people to work...here.
... Start peace talks with countries we have bombed and destroyed
... Apologize to the Veterans, living or deceased, and their shattered families of the past 50 years and at least make sure those who want to or can work have a job and their families are cared for.
... Complete women's health care with no questions asked or creepy wands (men, too)
... Food stamps for anyone who is hungry...working or not...no means test just that they are hungry
... Minimum wage $15 an hour
... Strong unions as defined by Mr. Trumpka
... A roof over every American's head, with clean water, heat and safe locks
... Soup kitchens staffed and serving hot, nutritious food for those who can't cook for themselves
... Bring back the Neighborhood Youth Corps for high school students
... Sex Education in high schools and free birth control access


This is where i believe the "Extreme Left' starts. I'm sure someone can add some more. Thanks for asking the question. I feel better already because this is what I stand for. Will it all be in my time? Probably not. Am I not going to vote because I'm not getting my way? Absolutely not.

[riqster]

21. As a Centrist, I support each and every item on your list.

I'm pretty much a Truman Democrat. Nothing you wrote seems at all extreme to me.

[libdem4life]

22. It's a long way from a Reagan Democrat re OP and I see few of these values being supported these

days in either party, as it's mostly considered Socialism. Sure don't get Centrist out of it. How would you characterize a liberal?

[riqster]

24. Well, since I called BS on the OP definition, don't expect me to support or explain it.

And per my other posts on this thread, I'd suggest we all define ourselves. So, let a liberal answer that one.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

30. How does that work? You're a "Truman Democrat" but a "Centrist".

Do you know who said:

"When a fellow tells me he's bipartisan, I know he's going to vote against me."

and

"Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time."

[riqster]

41. Read my other comments to see why I define myself as I do.

Your quotes assume that there is only only axis: that of Dem vs Reep.

[VanillaRhapsody]

52. If there is nobody to the Left of you....you are it!

[closeupready]

17. Actually, it's saying you are a Democrat in name only - DINO.

You vote Republican, you sympathize with Republicans, you would be a Republican if you could.

[brooklynite]

26. Would you mind posting a clear list of the acceptable Democratic positions?

I'm sure you all agree on them, so it should be easy to provide?

[WillyT]

27. No, No... This Is Much Easier... Please Define The Republican Ideas/Policies You Embrace...

And... after you realize you do not...

Please explain why you fear the word 'Liberal'... and taking a progressive stand.

WHY... are so many so weak kneed in this party ???

[brooklynite]

28. There's miles of distance between me and Republican policies...

...but I advocate centrist ones because they're more likely to get implemented, and I'd rather make progress in small steps than make no progress at all.

And one of the biggest Republican positions I reject is demanding political purity.

[WillyT]

31. Things Have Changed...

Women getting the right to vote...

Minorities getting the right to vote...

Among many others... DID take a long time...

Newspapers carried by horse drawn carriages, et. al....

But we are pretty much Linked up these days, and most of us agree on what needs to be done, yet we insist on bringing the news by horse-drawn carriage.

Why is that?

[Fumesucker]

39. Horse-drawn carriages are traditional? n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

44. Just a couple of years ago, the 'Centrist' postition on marriage equality was 'Civl Unions are the

only possible solution. Don't get hung up on a word, stop wanting that Pony, Civil Unions are the best we can do. Obama can not support gay marriage! At least not until after the 2012 election! If he does he would lose in a landslide! Pragmatically speaking, the best we can hope for is Civil Unions until most of the older generation dies off. Until then demanding ponies with extreme poutrage just hurts your cause. While I understand why gay people would want equality, pragmatically it is not possible for many, many years.'
And yet now it is considered extremely right wing to oppose marriage equality and to whine about the pragmatic nature of separate civil unions for 'those people'. Fuck, in 2008 Obama had events hosted by 'ex gays'. By 2012 'ex gays' were Bachmann's gig. In 2008 Obama was preaching 'Sanctity, one man one woman'. Very 'pragmatically' he spoke of invisible and unprovable reasons for his 'pragmatic' views. Pragmatists of course do not believe in that which is unseen, but he was a faith based pragmatist in 08 raving about the 'spiritual nature' of heterosexual couples.
So to me, for all time that is who the 'Centrists' are. The folks who advocated 'slow change is the only change' and for years insisted that equality was an extreme demand that we could never attain. Say Anything Centrist I call them.
The Centrists were happy to have Rick Warren on that stage days after he called gay people pedophiles. That is the harvest of Centrism. That's why I find it foul and objectionable, weak willed but threaded with massive ego. Centrist insist they can see the future and know the possible without trial, without attempt, they say 'give up now, we are not good enough to accomplish anything, America.'

[brooklynite]

45. ...and if Civil Unions had never been implemented, we might still be arguing about marriage equality

[Bluenorthwest]

50. That's hilarious for so many reasons! First, we are still fighting for marriage equality, we are

still arguing about it, or at least those of us who have always strongly fought for it are still fighting for it.
I guess you were unable to respond to what I actually wrote because you did not do so. Not in any way, shape or form. So I will repeat. Centrists advocated AGAINST marriage equality for YEARS while claiming that only Civil Unions, at best, might be eventually possible if we go very slowly, because all injustice must end very slowly. The week Obama came out for equality, Centrists on DU were raving away that he could not do so without it costing the election. 'So you want President Romney' they'd say. I could show you pages and pages of 'pony/poutrage/pragmatism' posts from DU centrists. Pages. But you already know that. You just don't respect the subject enough to discuss it properly.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

34. So, as a "Centrist" are you in favor of:

* drone murder?
* insurance mandates?
* SS cuts?
* torture?
* intervention in Syria?
* TPP?
* union-busting?
* school corporatization?

(list borrowed from Doctor_J, #3)

[Romulox]

46. Isn't this *exactly* what centrists believe? We have a drone-killing apologist who posts frequently

here, for example.

[aikoaiko]

35. Not if they vote Democratic.

[WillyT]

36. I Would Just Like A Tiny Bit Of Commitment...

***************************************************************

JFK - Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

<snip>

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

But first, I would like to say what I understand the word "Liberal" to mean and explain in the process why I consider myself to be a "Liberal," and what it means in the presidential election of 1960.

In short, having set forth my view -- I hope for all time -- two nights ago in Houston, on the proper relationship between church and state, I want to take the opportunity to set forth my views on the proper relationship between the state and the citizen. This is my political credo:

I believe in human dignity as the source of national purpose, in human liberty as the source of national action, in the human heart as the source of national compassion, and in the human mind as the source of our invention and our ideas. It is, I believe, the faith in our fellow citizens as individuals and as people that lies at the heart of the liberal faith. For liberalism is not so much a party creed or set of fixed platform promises as it is an attitude of mind and heart, a faith in man's ability through the experiences of his reason and judgment to increase for himself and his fellow men the amount of justice and freedom and brotherhood which all human life deserves.

I believe also in the United States of America, in the promise that it contains and has contained throughout our history of producing a society so abundant and creative and so free and responsible that it cannot only fulfill the aspirations of its citizens, but serve equally well as a beacon for all mankind. I do not believe in a superstate. I see no magic in tax dollars which are sent to Washington and then returned. I abhor the waste and incompetence of large-scale federal bureaucracies in this administration as well as in others. I do not favor state compulsion when voluntary individual effort can do the job and do it well. But I believe in a government which acts, which exercises its full powers and full responsibilities. Government is an art and a precious obligation; and when it has a job to do, I believe it should do it. And this requires not only great ends but that we propose concrete means of achieving them.

Our responsibility is not discharged by announcement of virtuous ends...

<snip>

More: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/jfk-nyliberal/

[aikoaiko]

37. If you want commitment then get a dog

Otherwise your stuck with me. A Democrat who is liberal minded centrist.

[WillyT]

38. Well You're Ok... It's The Rest Of Them I Worry About.

[aikoaiko]

40. I hear you.

[whistler162]

48. Oh boy another try at divisive posting!

What is this the 5th or 6th go at moderates/centerists are bad meme?

[FSogol]

59. SSDD

[Xolodno]

51. Yippee.......

...another bash the centrists/moderates thread.

Yeah tell them they aren't good enough for the Democratic Party and its goals.

Right on! Tell them to go fuck themselves and vote Republican for not being ideologically pure enough!

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. Purge....Just like the Republicans!

Purge has worked out SO WELL for them. Let's emulate that...

[Decaffeinated]

56. They did... It just doesn't happen to conform to your personal gold standard...

[treestar]

57. Quit sowing intra-Democratic warfare

Especially in 2014. That might help with some progress.