How Feminism Hurts Men

[Matariki]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/micah-j-murray/how-feminism-hurts-men_b_4266733.html

For men, the rise of feminism has relegated us to second-class status. Inequality and discrimination have become part of our everyday lives.

Because of feminism, church stages and spotlights are often dominated by women. Men are encouraged to just serve in the nursery or kitchen. Sometimes men are even told to stay silent in church.

Because of feminism, women make more money than man in the same jobs.

more at link

[Gravitycollapse]

1. I came into this thread prepared to eviscerate someone.

[Liberal_in_LA]

7. plus 100

[NuclearDem]

31. Same here.

Came in all loaded for misandry, got satire instead.

[Matariki]

41. ;-)

I thought the same thing when I saw the link to that article. Couldn't resist sharing it here on DU

[seabeyond]

2. and heavens, a 45 yr old man might get a whole year in jail for raping an unconscious 16 yr old girl

he fed booze to until she passed out.

po men. not fair


"But stay strong, bros.

One day we'll all be equal."

[Th1onein]

12. You've got to be kidding?

Do you have a link?

[Chan790]

13. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024029078
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-soccer-coach-jail-rape-teen-player-20131113,0,934637.story

[Th1onein]

18. O.M.G. What possible reason for one year in jail?

Why'd they bother to even convict him if all they give him is a slap on the wrist?

[Chan790]

24. Don't know for certain...

but based on the no contest plea, I'd have to guess it's a sentencing arrangement in order to spare the victim from having to relive the incident by testifying about it in open court; there's generally a lot of pressure from above to seek pleas for that reason on violent, sexual or otherwise highly traumatic crimes against minors, even where the minors themselves want to testify.

One of my good friends from college is an ADA in a major east-coast US city now prosecuting major crime with financial components (such as racketeering, murder for hire, embezzlement; he started out on a task-force that went after drug suppliers and violent gang members for financial crimes like tax evasion and child support delinquency because a conviction is a conviction if it gets them off the streets and you can subsequently build a case on the more-serious crime to keep them there. But I'm digressing...well, sort of. I'll come back to this.) and this is the bane of his existence...he constantly gets pressure from the state AG, the mayor's office and the DA to take deals where kids are involved, even where the plea deal is 1/10 what he can get on conviction and the minor victim or witness is chomping to testify.

The other factor here is that the thing they really want is the lifetime sex-offender status with a perpetrator like this, that's worth trading off a longer sentence today. (They can't keep him inside forever on a single count of rape unfortunately. It exceeds the max-sentencing guidelines. Also, a conviction is never certain, even in the most cut-and-dried obvious cases.) The SO status means, if he gets out, he's never allowed to work or have contact with a pool we know he's hunting out of...his players. It keeps him away from working in any capacity with or near children. It's fairly major and it wasn't certain even with a conviction, it's discretionary upon the sentencing judge based on the facts in evidence. (and judges can be idiots.)

Likewise, this takes him off the street for a year...it's like the violent gang leaders getting 180 days for child-support delinquency; if you think there's more victims out there or a more-serious crime, this gives you a year to build that case and seek serious jail-time.

[nomorenomore08]

106. That's actually a very interesting point. I hadn't thought of it that way before. n/t

[BlueToTheBone]

128. Worse, he was her teacher. What a horror

and what non justice. But I think he has to register which will keep him from school children...theoretically.

[Tx4obama]

3. I hope I live long enough to see the day "... women hold over 80 percent of the seats in Congress."

[Ohio Joe]

4. The sad part is... There are men who actually make this claim...

Their disconnect with reality is very disturbing.

[LeftyMom]

6. Some of them are DUers.

[SunSeeker]

9. I agree. I was really taken aback by some male DUers on VAWA.

I remember guys complaining about how VAWA gives women "special treatment." Of course, even if it did (which it doesn't, it protects both sexes from domestic violence), women are much more vulnerable and terrorized by men than the other way around. I was so saddened that there are men on this site who don't see that.

[davidn3600]

14. Why is it called "Violence against Women Act" if it is gender-neutral?

Serious question...

We need to remember that in America you are innocent until proven guilty. However in a domestic violence call, a man is guilty until proven innocent. It takes a LOT for police to consider a woman as the primary aggressor. Technically the man isn't even permitted to defend himself since doing so could cause a bruise on the woman.

[SunSeeker]

26. Dunno, maybe because most of the adults beat up at home are women.

But yeah, those women who easily bruise sure are making it tough on men.

[Iggo]

36. Yeah, we can't catch a break.

[nomorenomore08]

110. All one has to do is to look at the ratio of deaths and serious injuries, by gender, to understand

why this is. I don't doubt that it's unfair to some men, in some situations, and that's not good. But considering how much more likely a woman is to be killed, or have multiple bones broken etc., compared to the reverse, I have a hard time seeing that men are getting the short end of the stick.

[arcane1]

174. You're cute. Have any links to these studies, or "hundreds" of feminist theorists and publications?

[JustAnotherGen]

125. It could always be renamed

But understand when we were working towards this at the grassroots level in the early 1990's - it stemmed from the complete lack of a woman being able to get her day in court and get justice. The network of shelters from women fleeing from abusive marriages. The - having to get shot in order for local authorities to step in and stop your stalker.

There is certainly violence and abuse by women towards men, and in same sex relationships - but as an 18 year old pulled into getting this legislation across the finish line by mom and my local Congresswoman - the focus was on how tilted against women state and local authorities were behaving.

It took their inability to get their heads out of their asses and arrest a man who had beaten and raped his wife to the level of a Civil Rights violation.

In 2005 as a 32 year old woman - that very law was able to get my stalker stopped in his tracks. In 1990 there was no such thing as a restraining order for a kooky nut who fixates on you. It also has worked for THREE of my male friends dealing with a bunny boiler themselves.

[nomorenomore08]

175. +1

Some people really seem to have no understanding of social context (past as well as present) here. Maybe it's willful on their part, I don't know...

[CTyankee]

23. This is why it is so important for the women here at DU to raise hell...

I see some DU men deriding, discounting and taunting women who are outspoken here -- the same tactics that some men have always pulled on women seeking equality and justice. Much of it is bluster. We must just keep on going. Eyes on the prize...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. there is a du'er here who pushed and got his own forum, who adamantly and repeatedly

has stated that women contribute to the violence against them by instigating their husbands.

i could point to links but i dont want this post to get deleted because ironically that is much more likely to happen, than to get a post that blames the victim deleted

[SunSeeker]

28. Unfuckingbelievable. Glad I missed that. nt

[Ohio Joe]

44. Yup...

It confuses me that the Group is allowed to stay... A vile place.

[BainsBane]

50. In several ways

One of which is they spend most their time talking shit about feminists on DU, often by name.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. I have a name.

Harvard University and the National Institute of Health also have something of a name.

They report that 50% of intimate partner violence is reciprocal. Of the part that is unilateral, 70% of it is by women against men.

Further, reciprocity is a huge predictor of injury to the woman involved.

If "A" frequently results in "B", and "B" is something you want to avoid, then it makes sense to decrease the prevalence of "A" - even if you're indifferent to "A" in principle.

And the Men's group isn't the Jeff forum.

[LanternWaste]

62. "She made me hit her" is one of the most chickenshit things I've ever read/heard in my life.

"She made me hit her" is one of the most chickenshit things I've ever read/heard in my life... but chickenshit language comes from chickenshit people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. Where did you read/hear it?

Apparently not here.

Did you know the term "straw man" came from the middle ages, a time in which knights would practice their jousting by assembling a scarecrow, placing it atop a horse, then knocking it off?

I'm sure that a great many knights considered themselves skilled and virtuous because of their experience in these "contests".

[SunSeeker]

113. I read it here.

Apparently, violence against women is nothing to complain about because it is "reciprocal" violence that escalates after women push men's "buttons."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1114754#post1

A "bitch had it coming" thread if I ever saw one.

[lumberjack_jeff]

135. A direct hit! Look at the straw fly! Smite that strawman!

I provided the link to the study which shows exactly what I DID say... which is not what you said btw... upthread.

Reciprocal violence precedes most IPV injury to women. No one who truly is concerned about that injury can honestly maintain the pretense that reciprocal violence isn't both common and worth discouraging.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

143. except you extend this to domestic violence victims who usually cannot just be surveyed

in a normal population, a certain amount of people will report throwing things at each other, or biting or shoving etc. women are much more likely to report this because there is less stigma attached to women shoving a guy (no one really sees this as a threat and hence women do not feel compelled to lie about it).

it does not address severe violence that leads women (and some men) to die or be hospitalized. nor psychology or emotional abuse, key components of severely abused women (and some men)

surveys cannot get at clinically specially samples, at least not in that way this study did.

to say that a certain about of intimate partner violence is normalized by both genders in relationships is probably accurate. when people talk about domestic violence, they are usually not talking about someone shoving someone else out of the way to get somewhere but a non-normalized form of violence where women are the primary victims and there are some male victims

[SunSeeker]

164. Thanks for confirming my point. I see you're still proud of your "reciprocal violence" stand.

We don't see headlines about a woman who kept three men chained in her basement, beating them and raping them on a daily basis. The violence that puts women in the hospital and the grave is not "reciprocal." Women do not kill men or beat men in the same numbers. You want to count slaps the same as a rape or gunshot. Those are not "reciprocal" acts, those are not equivalent. To suggest that a women slapping a man is the reason the man ends up breaking her bones, raping her or killing her is to excuse the terror abusive men rain on their partners. It is a fact, men are stronger than women. By a lot. And abusive men use that reality to terrorize the women in their lives. To say this goes both ways is ignoring reality and excusing the abuse.

[opiate69]

138. In your super-duper sleuthing, you seem to have overlooked one inconvenient detail..

The only person in that thread saying that was rightly PPRd ages ago...

[SunSeeker]

162. There were several DUers saying or supporting that in that thread.

And as the present thread demonstrates, they were not all PPR'd.

[opiate69]

99. I wonder...

Do you plan to ever contribute anything substantive to a discussion, as opposed to your incessant banal, immature, not-nearly-as-cutting-as-you-think-they-are insults?

[seabeyond]

104. i thought he actually rolled up his sleeves adn loosened his tie and unbuttoned his collar shirt on

that post. i was cheerin'. i luvs my latern and he kicks almost all our butts in higher level debate.

[BainsBane]

48. It goes beyond that

Some men become incensed whenever I or some others post about violence against women. Some were furious that the WHO released a study that showed how severe the problem is because it focused on Women, and they were angry they they weren't the focus. They pretend men are as often victims of domestic violence. It is all part of an effort to silence discussion of violence against women so abusers can batter without scrutiny. It also reflects misogyny as described in the article linked below. Of course these are the same characters who whine that discussions of rape are misandrist. It really comes down to a deep hated for women, so deep that discussions of violence against us must be silenced.
http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/how-to-spot-a-misogynist-20120430-1xueh.html

[JustAnotherGen]

127. I won't and can't be silenced

I went out on a date three times and caught a Bunny Boiler. VAWA was what the Rochester police and ADA used to protect me. Without that - mark my words - that guy was nucking futs and I would NOT be here today. Most recently I helped my friend J with his bunny boiler situation using the exact same laws I did. J is a man.

So this nonsense over what it's called is just that - nonsense BB. I've got your back - I'm not backing down and I won't be silenced.

[Bonobo]

15. "Some of them are DU'ers in my mind."

"Even though I cannot point to anyone who ever said that."

There I fixed that for you.

[LeftyMom]

17. No, some of them are definitely DUers.

I'm carefully avoiding a call-out, but one posted something specific along those lines from some especially nasty MRA sites within the past few days on a FB page where a lot of DUers saw it.

Don't accuse me when you don't know what you're talking about.

[Bonobo]

19. Could be a DU'er that was booted, right?

So now he is an ex-DU'er, no?

[LeftyMom]

20. Nope. Still active. Still hates women.

[Pab Sungenis]

108. Just say my name. Everyone here knows you're talking about me.

I posted an article about how radical feminists had a history of anti-gay activity. And it's a well known part of LGBT history.

http://paganpressbooks.com/jpl/DTF.HTM

Unfortunately, some very serious problems have arisen. Self-proclaimed feminists have acted in ways that were harmful to both gay liberation and women's liberation, and reactionary ideas have been advanced under the banner of feminism. I do not say these things were characteristic of the women's movement as a whole; rather, they can be attributed to a small, but highly publicized, minority.
Although criticism of male homosexuality and gay liberation has issued freely from the feminist camp, there has been almost no reciprocal criticism from gay men, not even in self defence. It has become almost taboo to criticize anyone who identifies herself as a “feminist”.
Why have feminists enjoyed this virtual immunity from criticism? For a number of reasons: Because most gay men really do support the women's movement, and are therefore hesitant to attack a women's liberationist. Because of a mood of guilt. Because feminists have so often demanded that things they disagree with be censored, and have so often gotten their way, that some men frankly are afraid of them. There is also an element of traditional male gallantry. And finally, there is a particular ideology which justifies the privileged status that feminists enjoy within the Gay Academic Union and other gay groups.

So that makes me hate women?

[Starry Messenger]

118. John Lauritsen is an AIDS denialist. Just FYI.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.health.aids/Ed5B4zGtf1c%5B1-25-false%5D

PROVINCETOWN -- THE AIDS CULT: ESSAYS ON THE GAY HEALTH CRISIS,
published by Pagan Press under its Asklepios imprint, is now at
the printers, with a February 1997 publication date. According to
publisher John Lauritsen, it will be the first book to deal
comprehensively with the real reasons gay men are becoming sick in
ways that are called "AIDS".

John Lauritsen, his co-editor Ian Young, and the other six
contributors to THE AIDS CULT are all at least skeptical of the
hypothesis that dubiously defined "AIDS" is caused by a virus.
Lauritsen contends: "At this point in time, debating the HIV-AIDS
hypothesis is like flogging a dead horse. That absurdity was
demolished by molecular biologist Peter Duesberg a decade ago, and
it's time to move on."

<snip>

Both editors of THE AIDS CULT have been active in the gay movement
since the 60s, which lends weight to their criticisms of some
aspects of the homosexual subculture: drug abuse, dehumanized
meeting places, unhealthful sexual practices, and a cultic
acceptance of victimhood. John Lauritsen maintains: "The time has
come for gay men to do a ruthlessly honest reappraisal of our
environment, our identities, and the ways that we live."

[Pab Sungenis]

121. And that diminishes what he said in 1976?

[Starry Messenger]

122. Totally up to you.

[bobduca]

153. Yes.

[Scuba]

21. I've seen it, and from multiple DU members.

And yes, I'm a guy.

[geek tragedy]

30. "The modern feminist is . . . Fred Phelps in a pantsuit."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3738258

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. oh god, that thread. where people should have been kicked off DU and were not. nt

[geek tragedy]

33. it was flypaper for misogynists and other rightwing creeps nt

[NuclearDem]

34. Wow, glad I missed that.

[seabeyond]

35. no one should feel ick, shame or hold value judgment with grown men buy schoolgirls soiled panties

out of vending machines

or

suggesting a man that cant get a date offer women money for a blow job to see if he gets any takers.

ya...

it is the feminists fault.

[seabeyond]

40. it is a man thing? all us little wimminz shouldnt worry our pretty, fragile head over?

[kcr]

119. That's a good question.

Why are they here?

[Matariki]

52. Glad I missed that thread

and ugh, sorry I just read it now

[nomorenomore08]

111. That has got to be one of the downright silliest things I've ever read, on DU anyway.

If that's someone's idea of incisive political commentary then I just and feel sorry for them.

[LanternWaste]

64. More accurately, you fixed it for you.

"There I fixed that for you..."

More accurately, you fixed it for you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. "Some say"

[Bonobo]

96. .

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. Exactly. n/t

[R B Garr]

114. Yes, it's very noticeable in many instances

[kcr]

117. Yep

[freshwest]

5. Gee, my experience has been the exact opposite. Go figure.

[flvegan]

8. "Yesterday somebody on Facebook told me that..."

I think the trifecta has been achieved here. Where do I collect my winnings?

[DeSwiss]

10. And the Patriarchy continues to crumble!

- K&R

[Matariki]

43. LOL

That's awesome!

[BainsBane]

11. know what else?

Abolition hurt Southern white planters. So fucking what?

[Matariki]

42. Someone didn't read the article

[BainsBane]

46. I did

But after I wrote the post.

[Matariki]

51. :-)

[davidn3600]

16. Feminism doesn't hurt men, it just ignores men

Feminists fight for women's rights, not equal rights.

Many times women's rights and equal rights are the same thing...but sometimes it isn't.

[ehrnst]

37. The dominant culture will fight to stay that way. They will not give up power willingly.

Which is why they feel put upon.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. this is akin to saying that civil rights group like the NAACP ignores whites

or gay rights groups ignores straights

it's an argument that sounds clever but makes no sense

[BainsBane]

47. See number 5

In this article

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/how-to-spot-a-misogynist-20120430-1xueh.html

[davidn3600]

54. Let me tell you why you are missing the point...

Does the National Organization for Women fight for gender equality? They claim they do, but they don't always. Their focus is always women's rights, but that sometimes doesn't fully apply to equality.

An example is how the Pentagon recently opened practically all military positions to women. Feminists have been fighting for that for a long time. Yet, do we see these feminists demanding that women be forced to register for the Selective Service the way men are legally forced to? Heck no, and you won't. It is a gender inequality that feminists will ignore because it benefits women.
Even Congressman Rangel made light of this earlier this year.

Another example is the justice system where study after study shows that women tend to get more lenient sentencing for the same crimes as men even when you take into account past criminal history. Studies also show women are more likely to have a lower bail set and more likely to have their charges dropped or receive more favorable plea deals. There is also a push by feminists to change conditions for women in prison and have a "softer approach." Again, this shows how feminists advocate for women without a care of whether this puts men in an inequality.

I can talk about many other places too if you want (ie: education, mental health, obamacare, etc..)... the fact is that feminists favor women's issues even if it leads to gender inequality in a different way. That's why I say feminists don't care about men. Feminists operate under the assumption that men already have it made and in full control of society under the patriarchy and require no assistance. But the reality is far more complicated than that. There is no secret meeting of the patriarchy. There is no man or group of men in control of it.

[BainsBane]

56. Your schtick on this is clear

Do you complain that the NAACP doesn't fight for white rights? Are you upset the human Rights coalition doesn't fight for straight rights. Or is there something unique to women that were are supposed to devote ourselves to tending to men? Since I've gotten divorced, I have no more responsibility to prop up a fragile male ego. I'm sorry that you see women's efforts to establish something close to equality so threatening, but that really is your problem. I'm not interested in your excuses as to why I should be denied equality, or why violence against me doesn't matter.

[davidn3600]

57. I dont see the NAACP as a threat to whites at all in any shape or form

The NAACP doesnt fight for special treatment. They want blacks and whites to be treated the same. They also fight in areas where there is real racial inequality. They don't fight for special treatment in places where there is already equality. Feminists are pushing for more and more programs to help girls in school, meanwhile boys grades are falling, are dropping out in increasing numbers, having more and more discipline problems, and women make up 60% of enrollment in higher education.

The NAACP isn't asking the justice system to treat blacks more favorably over whites. Feminists on the other hand are pushing for women to be treated differently than men in prisons. And the feminists ignore places where women have advantages in the system.

The NAACP isn't asking Congress to put special programs and treatments in the healthcare act that can only apply to African Americans. Feminists demanded and got special programs and benefits that men did not get. Feminists were able to get things written into the healthcare act that provides more guaranteed services to women that are not guaranteed to men. Mental health, domestic violence assistance, cancer screenings, STD screenings, maternity care, contraception, etc... these things men have to pay for in their premiums that they are not guaranteed to have or cannot possibly use. A man will never be pregnant, nor can he use his maternity coverage to cover an uninsured woman. So why the hell is he forced to pay that premium? I still cannot get a feminist anywhere to give me a straight answer on that. And as far as the other things, everything has to be approved, while women get guarantees. Yes...I have a problem with this. Yes...I think it's unfair.

Sorry, I know what you are trying to do...you are trying to paint me as a racist, misogynist, homophobe. It isn't going to work because that's not what I am. I am an egalitarian. I support equality for everybody regardless of their gender, race, age, income, or sexual orientation. Everyone should be treated the same way. If a feminist is supporting an inequality that hurts men, you damn well better believe I will call them out. Just like if some guy says "we can't have a female president," I will call them out on that.

[kcr]

58. Special treatment

That's exactly the kind of thing bigots always say. Minorities just want special treatment. No one has to try to paint you as anything.

[davidn3600]

63. Well apparently no one can counter my points..

I've laid out specific examples of gender inequalities that hurt men. Yet I get called a racist and a misogynist in response.

If I am wrong...tell me where! Educate me! My ears and mind is open. I am willing to hear you out.

I mean I have statistics to prove those inequalities, if you want them.

[kcr]

68. You've been on DU over a year

And claim no one has refuted those points? I don't think so. Those have all been refuted, plenty of times. For one thing, why should anyone have to be told why maternity coverage should be included, especially if they claim to be progressive enough to be here? You weren't born? You sprang from a cabbage patch or something?

For another, if you are the one who's going to claim that feminist want special treatment rather than equality, it seems you should be the one to pony up the evidence for that claim.

[nomorenomore08]

124. Exactly. He's the one making the broad, sweeping generalization.

Are men "disadvantaged" compared to women in certain very specific cases? Probably. But if you tell me that that makes feminism unnecessary, let alone detrimental, I'll laugh in your face.

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. Let's explore that point. "Feminism" = "equality"

As a feminist do you support the State of Washington's new initiative to make prison nicer for women?

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022187282_womensprisonxml.html

Now, with the growth of female inmates outpacing that of males and no space to house them, the state Department of Corrections (DOC) is shifting to more gender-specific treatment of incarcerated women. The changes range from simple — access to a fruity-smelling shampoo and better-fitting clothing, and special bras for inmates who’ve had mastectomies — to more substantive, such as greater focus on substance abuse and mental-health counseling.

The change reflects a recognition that gender dictates different treatment of inmates.

“It’s not a one-size-fits-all system,” said DOC Secretary Bernie Warner.

“The pathways coming to the system are different for women than men,” he said. “Men are incarcerated for criminal thinking and anti-social behavior. Women come in because of social influences and trauma.”

Do you think this is praiseworthy from a feminist perspective, and would you describe it as driven by a desire for equality?

[davidn3600]

142. I wouldnt expect any coherent response on such a question

I've not gotten much of a response yet for making the same argument other than being called a racist...

On one hand we have feminists telling us we are all equal and women are strong and independent and should be treated the same. And on the other hand you get stuff like that that claim women are different, more emotional, and would respond better to softer forms of punishment.

I mean....WTF? Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

[nomorenomore08]

145. Seems like there's no room for shades of gray in your world.

Either society is completely equal, or it's completely unequal. Either we have to treat women exactly the same as men, or we have to treat them like dogshit.

[davidn3600]

147. ...but it seems OK in your world to treat men like dogshit

If the situation was reversed, and we were talking about giving special treatment to male inmates and not to women....there would be hell to pay. And you know it.

[seabeyond]

148. you have found 2 or 3 things you preceive you can claim as unfair to men. i can give you a thousand

unfairness to women.

do you REALLY see that as =?

[nomorenomore08]

151. I never said that that particular concern was invalid. It's *not*. I think treatment of inmates

in this country is deplorable in general, and yes, most of said inmates happen to be male.

But using that one example to argue that, not only have we achieved equality, but that feminism is now working against equality, borders on the absurd.

[lumberjack_jeff]

152. I'm testing the idea that "equality" means something attainable or even desirable.

If the institutionally sexist inequality described in the article about Washington State prisons is a feminist goal... or in fact even tolerable... then feminism is not about equality. The same is true for "the office of women's healthcare" in the ACA or its list of healthcare services (not all of which are gender specific) that are only available to women.

Why aren't vasectomies free? Because reproductive healthcare is on the list that is exclusive to women (and children).

We wouldn't do this if equality as the term is understood was really important.

Which is fine, really. I just wish we could drop the charade. It should be obvious to everyone that feminism is about advocacy, not equality.

[nomorenomore08]

154. Why are "advocacy" and "equality" mutually exclusive? And why are these small, specific examples

so damn important, that you think they put all of feminism into question?

Honestly, I like to give you guys the benefit of the doubt, but some of you just seem knee-jerk anti-feminist.

[lumberjack_jeff]

156. I'm an advocate for people with disabilities.

In that job, I don't give a shit about equality. I want more for my people, and I don't try to pretend otherwise. I want the workplace supports that they need due to their particular circumstances. I want funding for DD services so they have enough caregiver time that they can lead fulfilling lives.

But to justify that advocacy I do need to convince people that their individual circumstances require those supports - supports to which you and I are ineligible because we don't need them.

No one has adequately explained to me how fruity shampoo in the women's jail is needed to mitigate the problems that they have that male prisoners do not.

Patriarchy is apparently a world in which even the female felons are actually victims.

And no. Advocacy and equality are mutually exclusive because once you reach equality of a particular policy goal, the efforts don't stop.

[nomorenomore08]

161. We may, in part, have different definitions of "equality." I accept that.

You explained the distinction well enough, I'm just not sure if I agree with how you define things. For one thing, I don't know if "perfect equality" (whatever that means) even exists as a possibility, and assuming it did, how would we measure it?

But at least you acknowledge that "advocacy" is not a bad thing in itself. And I don't think that feminists advocating for women is unreasonable or unnecessary, any more than the NAACP advocating for African-Americans is.

[lumberjack_jeff]

163. I have a dictionary. I'd be happy to share.

Once the parties involved get past the head fake that "equality for me" represents, we can have a reasonable conversation.

Such as; "Given the fact that 30% more is spent on women's care, and that women live 6 years longer, and have gained 30 years of life expectancy in the last 100 years compared to men's 25, and that men die younger of every preventable cause, and that funding for breast cancer research dwarfs that of prostate cancer, and that the ACA raises men's premiums for the purpose of lowering womens' premiums; convince me why an office of women's health is a public policy need."

[nomorenomore08]

165. I wouldn't be opposed to an Office of Men's Health, since we men do have particular health needs

(prostates etc.) that women don't. But in general, I don't see all this as a zero-sum game, and I don't feel that gains for women need be losses for men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

166. fully agree.

which begs the question of why in practice they are.

[seabeyond]

155. are getting tubes tied free? nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

157. Yes.

http://www.nwlc.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/contraceptive_coverage_faq_11.9.11.pdf

additionally

(a) In general
A group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage shall, at a minimum provide coverage for and shall not impose any cost sharing requirements for—
(1) evidence-based items or services that have in effect a rating of “A” or “B” in the current recommendations of the United States Preventive Services Task Force;
(2) immunizations that have in effect a recommendation from the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention with respect to the individual involved; and
(3) with respect to infants, children, and adolescents, evidence-informed preventive care and screenings provided for in the comprehensive guidelines supported by the Health Resources and Services Administration.
(4) with respect to women, such additional preventive care and screenings not described in paragraph (1) as provided for in comprehensive guidelines supported by the Health Resources and Services Administration for purposes of this paragraph.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/45/147.130

[seabeyond]

158. and you know for sure vasectomies are not covered? that is wrong. something we should speak up

about. agree.

hey, and thanks for the link. it was interesting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

160. preventive care for men, women and children is defined by the USPSTF

45 CFR 147.130 (the ACA section on free preventive care)

Says that;
Men are eligible for the free preventive care listed on the USPSTF
Children are eligible for free preventive care listed on the USPSTF AND those listed on the HRSA
Women are eligible for free preventive care listed on the USPSTF AND those listed on the HRSA

The HRSA list is the only place where things like STD testing, HPV screening, "contraceptive methods and counseling" and domestic violence screening and counseling can be found.

If his deductible isn't satisfied, he will need to pay for those things.

From the department of unintended consequences: Couples will choose tubal ligation instead of vasectomy because the former is free.

[seabeyond]

159. someone made a very good point. this is about preventative. pregnancy effects the womans

body and creates health issue. i can see how the catagorize it as preventative.

it would make no sense that it is a preventative issue for a mans health that he not get a woman preg.

[davidn3600]

168. That one example though shows the problem many have with feminism

Have you seen that story of the man in Alabama who is serving life without parole for stealing a $150 jacket? That barely gets any attention at all. Then the many, many stories of men who die in prison because of poor conditions or abuse. There was a few months ago a story of one private prison in I think Arkansas with conditions that would be worse than prisons in 3rd world countries. Spoiled food, contaminated water, rats running around, etc... This stuff NEVER makes national news and ultimately no one does anything about it.

At the same time, you have feminists putting out stories about how women in prison aren't being coddled enough.

Are you kidding me?????

I mean, do you see what I'm saying? How a woman feels emotionally behind bars is the absolute least of the system's problems. But because the feminist lobby is so strong, and no politician wants to be seen as anti-female, the government will spend tens of millions of dollars to build new female prisons that rival college campuses. And who benefits? Only women...who make up less than 10% of the total prison population.

It's bullshit. Those feminists who are whining about how we are not being nice enough to female inmates don't give a damn about men who are being abused by the system every single day.

[nomorenomore08]

169. Prisoner abuse is one of our country's greatest shames. But why should feminists, specifically,

focus on it? I don't see non-feminists focusing on the issues (e.g. violence against women) that feminists care about most.

[seabeyond]

171. then DO something about it. YOU have a problem with feminism cause women are not doing something

about men in prison. MEN... do something about it. i will be on board. what a bunch of bullshit that you DEMAND, fuckin DEMAND that women take up your cause. and THAT is why so MANY have problems with feminism. cause they are not taking care of men

you are really saying this out loud. you really want this to be taken seriously.

not many can wrap their head around YOUR whining that women are not addressing mens issues and that is why so many men are PISSED at feminists.

[nomorenomore08]

172. If people like him actually addressed "women's issues" then I would understand his complaining.

But they never, ever do. In fact, most of the time they don't actively do anything about even the issues they claim feminists are neglecting.

[DireStrike]

70. because your "points" are terrible

they generally aren't worth refuting. I'm sure someone has and you've ignored it. Here, I'll give it a go:


The draft?! Really? There hasn't been a draft in decades. And there won't be. There would be massive riots and upheaval. It's a total non-issue, like everything else you raise. Demanding that a movement pick up every completely inconsequential problem in society and run with them in its platform is unrealistic at best. It gets worse from there, very quickly.

[BainsBane]

72. Moreover, the argument that women's rights groups

Have to fight for men shows just how self absorbed that men's rights crap is. If they want something done, do it themselves. He is essentially complainng that women dare do anything in life OTHER than cater to men, which he sees as our responsibility. It's a far right wing argument, the gender equivalent of White Supremacy.

No man who is accomplished or secure is threatened by equality for women, just as no white person who doesn't have major issues is throated by civil rights for people of color. People who make such arguments reveal far more about themselves than they realize.

[davidn3600]

77. I never said you have to fight for men...

...if you want to only fight for women, that's fine. It's a free country to be in favor of whatever politics you want.

But stop calling it equality. Because you can't fight for equality when you only care about the side YOU are on. That's my beef right there.

[BainsBane]

79. So the NAACP doesn't fight for equality?

Because they only fight for African Americans? The reason what these groups do in championing the rights of subaltern groups is Fighting for equality is because women, gays, and people of color do not have equal rights in this country. How can such a basic concept escape you?

[kcr]

80. Wait a minute.

So everyone else is fighting for equality. LIke the NAACP. And that's okay. Except for when women do it. But they can't claim it's for equality.

[etherealtruth]

82. That appears to be exactly what the poster is saying

[BainsBane]

83. The key difference

Is they can't get away with saying that shit about anyone but women on this site.

[kcr]

84. Bingo

That's exactly it. Pull that special treatment crap on anyone else? Instant banhammer.

[seabeyond]

85. and THAT would be the point. their ass would be kick off so far if they said this about any group,

but women.

[davidn3600]

86. It's not the same thing....

There is no denying the fact that there is still a lot of progress that needs to be made concerning race...especially education, criminal justice, income disparity, etc... I've seen blatant racism many times throughout my life.

Feminism I view differently because I think so much progress has been made. This is obviously still some issues like wages and reproductive health and sexual violence. Women still need to make progress in the upper areas of corporate America and politics. Im not denying that. But ultimately....we're equal. Vast majority of Americans support gender equality. Vast majority of Americans have no problem with a female president or even a female boss.
I think gender politics needs to take a more egalitarian approach in order to further progress towards equality.

Gender issues have made far more progress socially and economically than racial issues.

[kcr]

89. Well, because YOU think so...

Because YOU view it differently... Well okay then!

Yeah. No. Because you deem the progress is now satisfactory, that means the fight is now now longer for equality is ludicrous. You realize that plenty of racists feel the same way about racial equality, right? You'd tell them they're quite wrong, I'm sure. So, when enough racial equality has been achieved, are you going to hitch up your pants in readiness to tell them they can no longer claim they're fighting for equality? Are you checking on progress so you can make yourself ready?

[BainsBane]

91. Translation

Women need to be happy with being second class citizens. Their efforts for equality attack my privilege, and I don't like it. They are lucky they can vote and drive, so they need to shut the fuck up. That is essentially the argument.

That women earn lower wages for the same work isn't a problem. That 1 in 5 are raped isn't a problem. That 1 in 4 are victims of partner abuse isn't a problem. That only 4% of rapists see jail time isn't a problem. The problem is that feminists don't fight for the rights of men because men are the only ones who matter.

[davidn3600]

93. Exactly...it's an opinion..

Like I've maintained, I support equality for all.

Feminists may feel they are fighting for true gender equality (and that may very well be the real goal). But it is just my opinion that they are missing the bigger picture and are alienating a lot of people who would agree with them if they altered their approach. Groups like the NAACP and other organization fighting racism doesn't alienate white people or any people from coming to the table and talking about those kind of issues. The tone of feminism tends to alienate men, and even many women. You got all these celebrities and even politicians coming out saying, "I am not a feminist."

When more than 80% of America believes in gender equality, but less than 15% considers themselves a "feminist." Something is wrong with your movement.

But again, just my opinion.

[kcr]

95. Do people say things like "I'm not a feminist"

Because of the feminists, or because of the people who wreck the reputation of the feminists by trashing them? For example, Rush Limbaugh coined the term "Feminazi" and wrote a book thoroughly trashing the movement. And our media, oh so liberal, right? None of those things could possibly have anything to do with why many people who are actually for equality don't want to call themselves feminists, huh?

[seabeyond]

105. we have members of du going around putting up ugly, old women in order to shame us, like that stupid

would work. or call us dworkinites. or prudes, frigid, anti sex, ... you know, going after our sexuality to shut us up.

we have the same shit her, just a different day.

but .... ya.

[davidn3600]

109. I think it has more to do with divisive politics like with abortion

Issues like abortion, for example, where even women can't seem to agree. I don't remember the organization that did it but there was poll recently where 60% of WOMEN believed abortion should be banned after a certain week of the pregnancy. And Gallup has been tracking women who are "pro-life" and "pro-choice" for decades and found among WOMEN, it has always been very divided.

If feminism makes pro-choice the top of their agenda, then every anti-abortion woman is going to rebel against the movement.

Not suggesting you should change anything on the issue of abortion, by the way. That might cause even further harm. Im just pointing out an example of how divisive issues like this can shatter a movement.

I remember earlier this year, Justice Ginsberg was making a similar argument in a discussion forum and mentioned that she wished Roe v Wade wasn't as broad. She thinks it halted feminist momentum and would have been better if the issue was resolved through the democratic process.

[kcr]

112. Hmm.

So. Do you think all the other fights for equality have been smooth going? Is that why you give all of them a pass, but not feminism? NAACP is a-okay in your book. Because no one thinks they're controversial, right?

[seabeyond]

94. because you think women have made "enough" progress, we should now help men out with theirs? again

start your movement. if reasonable, i will be on board.

you do not get to decide how far and how hard women should work to equality. ya, that pesky thing called equal pay. oh, and a rapist of an unconscious girl getting more than a year. and sexually harassing and humiliating our girls to death.

fuck your opinion that we have made "enough" progress.

[davidn3600]

97. I said gender equality has made more progress than racial equality

Nowhere in my post did I ever say that gender issues are over. I said ultimately feminism has won. Women are voting, they have access to practically any career, vast majorities support gender equality. And I also said that it doesn't mean we still don't have problems and don't have issues to take care of.

But like I said in the other post..something like only 15% of Americans call themselves a "feminist" yet 80% favor gender equality....you are not making the progress you could be making if you were more inclusive.

The rapist soccer coach getting only a year is disgusting. But that's the general trend of the justice system. I can make a list of female teachers that raped underage males that got no jail time at all. So it does go both ways sometimes. And if you want to start something that fixes the system and puts rapists (males and females) in prison for longer periods, then sign me up for that. Im not pretending there is no problem here. The justice system sucks.

[seabeyond]

100. no. we have not won. not only have we not won, we are in the process of backpedaling.

and WE are not going to allow it. and WE have a very loud voice and going to keep on speaking out. each. and every. time.

feminists have ALWAYS been a huge minority. from the start to this day. nothing new there.

[BainsBane]

102. But, but we can vote

We should count ourselves lucky and shut up.

[kcr]

116. Yes, you've said it. And it gets dismissed because it doesn't matter.

Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Your absurd perception of who gets to fight for equality and doesn't is crazy. Folks, they're coming down the track! Who's it going to be? Racial and Gender Equality. Well, look at that! Gender Equality has pulled ahead!. Look at 'em go! Well, now. Their fight for equality, no longer justified!

No, I think it's more like you just want an excuse to slam Feminism. And you're trying to rationalize it. It isn't working.

[boston bean]

129. You made me LOL. Good post!

[davidn3600]

137. We didnt have to fight a civil war in order to get the 19th amendment

These two issues are similar in that its about civil rights. But they are different problems. Gender issues mainly stem from societal gender roles that history proves can change over time without really much more fuss than protesting and advocacy. Racial issues tend to have much more deeply rooted problems and you end up with violence, assassination, and even war.

[kcr]

140. So, one may reasonably argue there's a difference in degree, but not in kind.

Why then does it follow that only one is justified in fighting for equality, but not the other? It doesn't follow logically.

[nomorenomore08]

144. "Gender issues have made far more progress socially and economically than racial issues."

This is only true if you look at things very selectively. For one thing, there's still a large enough pay gap between men (as a whole) and women (as a whole) that some women are unable to leave abusive situations in part because they're financially dependent on the man. Things are probably quite a bit better in that respect than 40 or 50 years ago, but this country still isn't some gender equality paradise - certainly not compared to say, Sweden or Denmark, and even those countries aren't perfect.

Secondly, even if your assertion is true - which it may be in some limited respects - what makes you think we've reached any kind of perfect medium where advocating for women's equality is no longer necessary? Or that such an exact, measurable point of equality even exists?

[seabeyond]

146. this is the most ridiculous argument ever. we have radio hosts that call women sluts and whores and

spreading their legs and big tits as political commentaries. we have political leaders talking about women putting asprin between their knees. we have men calling women everything ugly, death threats and rape threats if they dare to put a face on the net or speak out or get noticed. we have religions across the world demanding women be subservient. we have a billion dollar industry that is all about degrading, humiliating, denigrating, hurting women and insisting the are submissive so men get off.

rapes without penalty. rapes being ignored by towns and the family run out. our girls killing themselves as they are sexually humiliated and put out on the net for entertainment, to their deaths.

and a poster is really suggesting, really really suggesting that women and men are now equal?

cause i am not seeing this shit happening to men.

[nomorenomore08]

149. Yeah, what "privilege" really means is all the bad shit that *doesn't* happen to you...

[davidn3600]

74. OK...then lets abolish the selective service

Either force women to start registering or end registration for men. Pretty simple solution I think..

As for the other points...

Women serve shorter sentences than men...practically everyone commenting is trashing feminism and calling this blatant sexism...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

A new prison in Iowa is designed to give female inmates a "gentler approach" to corrections...
http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Renovated-Womens-Prison-Takes-A--229395301.html

ACA:
http://www.mccrearyrecord.com/x252496913/Women-fare-better-than-men-in-new-health-law

[BainsBane]

87. Poor men

However can they survive when women's groups don't devote themselves entirely to catering to men. The outrage that women care about their own lives. Men would be able to sit back and complain and make women do everything for them. That's the natural way.


No one forces you to have anything to do with us. I for one have had enough of your contempt for my gender. Deal with your issues elsewhere.

[Gormy Cuss]

90. Abolishing selective service has been a feminist position since at least the 1960s.

Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 11:53 PM - Edit history (1)

As for women and prisons, there are structural differences that make it advantageous for nonviolent women offenders to have lighter sentences, the biggest being that they are disproportionately primary caregivers to minor children. Starr discusses this as a contributor and also posits that some of the difference is due to severity of the offense within the same category of offense. (e.g. women are arrested for smaller quantity of drugs possessed/sold, and for aggravated assaults that were less severe)

The Iowa prison was designed based on best practices which to say, proven methods to make the prison function better.

ACA: did you even read the link? The consensus is that there are men's reproductive and preventative health services that should also be covered, not that paying for women's is a bad thing. Redressing the historic disadvantage is a step in the right direction.

[boston bean]

132. Lower bail! Lower bail!

Well women do get paid less! The lower bail evens things out a bit, wouldn't you say?

[chervilant]

133. + a gazillion. n/t

[DireStrike]

67. Then you haven't been given all the talking points

Check your folder - it's on the same page under "special treatment" how Affirmative Action is damaging to poor, poor whites.

[davidn3600]

69. Someone hasn't read my posts...

First off, this thread has nothing to do with race. So this is going off topic now.

Second, if you read my post you will see that I specifically said that racial minorities DO NOT demand special treatment.

...but feminists do.

So please lets stick to feminism.

[DireStrike]

71. Well you didn't read mine, so that's fair.

aaand that's quite enough of my time doing this.

[nomorenomore08]

123. And how are you so comfortable freely generalizing about so many people?

To continue the racial analogy, this reminds me of white folks who think they're such "experts" on black people (usually with an obvious negative bias).

[Gormy Cuss]

81. Point by point.

Fact: groups like the NAACP worked to address the historic and current barriers to level access for African-Americans when competing with whites. Some of the most effective results of that advocacy (e.g. Affirmative Action) were met with claims by whites that they were being harmed by reverse discrimination. Feminists worked to address historic and current barriers based on gender and once they're effective......same reaction from those who lost a little privilege.

Fact: feminists haven't asked for women to be treated more favorably because they're women. The different treatment advocacy is based on differences like the harsher consequence when minor children lose contact with their primary caregiver. In advocating for recognition of family situation, feminists do NOT say that incarcerated men who were primary caregivers be ignored. I don't know what you're talking about in terms of advantages.

Fact: We all pay for conditions and diseases that we never will have, including some that we know we couldn't ever have (like pregnancy for men, prostate cancer for women.) Well baby checkups are now covered too. I don't have kids and never will, so that's useless for me. However, I understand that health insurance is supposed to work on a pooled risk basis. It's not a cafeteria plan. Making it so would render it ineffective.

Fact: losing privilege hurts.

[nomorenomore08]

120. It shouldn't hurt *that* much though. And as a guy I really get sick of the MRA whining.

[aikoaiko]

103. and the jury results are in....

At Thu Nov 14, 2013, 06:57 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I dont see the NAACP as a threat to whites at all in any shape or form
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4034432

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This poster is a spouting men's rights misogynist crap that has no place among liberals. This is extremist right wing stuff in that in sees women's rights as undermining men's place in the world.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Nov 14, 2013, 07:17 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Seriously! "A man will never be pregnant, nor can he use his maternity coverage to cover an uninsured woman. So why the hell is he forced to pay that premium?" Do you have a mother, sister, aunt or wife? Perhaps a little daughter? It's not, "I stand for me", we stand together. I don't have cancer either, yet I am willing to help pay for those that do. We are only ever a day away from an illness.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: IMHO some points are wrongheaded, but I'd leave it.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This is GD where DU members can discuss the issues (unlike certain protected groups)
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I'm uncomfortable with this post, but I think it's better to respond than hide.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[nomorenomore08]

115. Paternity (as well as maternity) leave? Readily available, affordable birth control for both sexes?

Funny how you're complaining about feminism when the countries that offer the things I just mentioned - things I'm sure you would support - are also generally the countries that score the highest in gender equality, i.e. where feminism has been most successful.

[geek tragedy]

60. "I say feminists don't care about men."

And there you have it.

[Sheldon Cooper]

61. This is one of the more unintentionally funny posts I've seen in awhile.

So, thanks for that.

[seabeyond]

78. we are trying to keep girls from killing themselves, being raped, and beaten to death. nonexisting

draft? start a movement. i will sign

[Gormy Cuss]

49. Yeah, that's why the never ratified amendment was called the Women's Rights Amendment. n/t

[chervilant]

130. Judging from your insupportable post,

you wouldn't know a Feminist if one jumped up and bit you on your ass.

[boston bean]

139. This sub thread was even better than the article. LMAO

It's like a comedy sketch.

[seabeyond]

150. it is so beyond absurd. i have been sitting here reading the back and forth and for there to even

sorta be an argument that all is equal now is fuckin out of the world, stupid.

[Scuba]

22. When a man runs for office ...

When a man runs for office, his physical appearance and clothing choices are discussed almost as much as his policies and ideas.

[snooper2]

53. especially when he looks like a fucking turtle

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

73. Don't fret, Sarah Palin is on your side

http://www.tytnetwork.com/2013/11/14/sarah-palin-governor-chris-christie-extremely-fat/

Source: The Young Turks Network

Sarah Palin: Governor Chris Christie is Extremely Fat
In an interview, Sarah Palin discussed how hard it is for women like her and Hillary Clinton to run for office because of sexism. When it’s pointed out that Chris Christie has been criticized for his appearance, Palin mentions how his ‘extreme” appearance is hard to ignore…

[Scuba]

75. Sarah never met a victim card she didn't like.

That said, sex discrimination is obvious once you know what you're looking for. How many women Chris Christie's size hold any kind of senior leadership/management positions?

Christie gets away with it because he's a man.

[Iggo]

25. LOL.

That was great!

[Butterbean]

29. Hilarious. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

45. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Matariki.

[Warpy]

59. The loss of entitlement hurts worst when you didn't know you had it.

That's what a lot of men have gone through. It's necessary pain.

[Solly Mack]

65. K&R

[AverageJoe90]

66. I really, truly, hope that this just a really clever piece of witty satire.......nt

[treestar]

76. Funny

good satire

[Katashi_itto]

98. Such a load of nonsense, this article

[Turbineguy]

107. I must have missed this.

Would someone kindly inform the Ladies I work (so happily) for?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

126. I thought this was the Onion.

[seabeyond]

134. lol

i luv you.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

141. aah -

me too you

[Matariki]

136. Not The Onion, but obvious satire.

And more importantly it does a good job pointing out just how far we still have to go toward full social equality.

[Deep13]

167. It's all very sad.