Owner Attacked by Dog and Loses Arms: Was it Provoked or Out of the Blue?

[baldguy]

Short answer: Probably not out of the blue:

While most dog attacks are not intentionally provoked, in some cases the dogs are intentionally trained. And in the case where a tough-breed of dog is owned by a violent criminal that cause is higher on the list.

A far more frequent cause of aggression, though, is that humans generally have inadvertently triggered the behavior or accidentally reinforced behaviors that can eventually lead to aggression. For instance, the most common cause of aggression to unfamiliar people is fear, and especially fear brought on when people approach and overwhelm a dog in an accidentally threatening way. They fail to recognize signs that the dog is fearful and they stare at, lean towards and reach out to the dog, often with friendly intentions. To the fearful dog, it looks like human is homing in on them with an intent to harm. For months the dog may cope with this type of greeting by backing away or freezing but it can just be a matter of time before they realize that the response of barking, lunging and even biting works better for keeping people away. For the humans, who do not know how to recognize the signs of fear and anxiety, the defensive attack does truly appear out of the blue.

But even non-fearful animals can become aggressive if certain types of behaviors are reinforced. What behaviors would these be? The ones that encourage impulsivity, over-arousal and encourage the dog to just react out of excitement rather than exercising self-control. For instance, puppies love to grab and chew any object they can get in their mouth. If you accidentally reward grabbing or chewing of your clothing or arms or jumping all over you in excitement, then you can be creating a serious problem for yourself down the road. By reward, I mean if you wave your arms around and squeal in surprise or pain, you sound and look like a human squeaky toy and you end up training the dog to grab you more. Even if you shout at the puppy in reprimand, often this causes these dogs to become more excited and to grab, jump and pull harder.

More:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sophia-yin/owner-attacked-by-dog-and_b_4293988.html

If a dog is trained by humans to attack other humans - the dog isn't to blame.
If a dog is abused or neglected by humans & responds in fear to human contact - the dog isn't to blame.
If a dog is not trained & socialized properly and inadvertently harms a human - the dog isn't to blame.

And more importantly: if a dog does any of these things THE MILLIONS OF DOGS WHO DON'T DO THESE THINGS AREN'T TO BLAME EITHER!

So, let's stop blaming dogs for the actions of humans, shall we?

[Bonobo]

1. "Blame" is irrelevant if you have your arms chewed off. nt

[baldguy]

2. So, if your neighbor falls off a ladder

And you own a ladder - a different ladder than the one your neighbor used - you should still be blamed for your neighbor's injuries.

Blame the people that trained/abused/neglected the dog. Don't blame the dog.

And certainly don't try to blame my dog.

[Bonobo]

4. It sounds like YOU are the one assigning blame, not me.

I didn't blame anyone or anything. Your OP sounds like if a dog chews your arm off, it is your fault.

I am saying assigning blame is irrelevant.

Pets exists, like it or not, for the purpose of serving the needs of humans. That's true for all domesticated animals.

Once they start biting arms off, the whole contract is sort of out the window.

[defacto7]

5. Try this one....

So, if your neighbor is mauled by a bear, and you are not mauled by another bear, a different bear - then no bears in the neighborhood should be held under scrutiny for doing what they are disposed to do?

and I don't blame your bear, BTW....

[baldguy]

14. Except that dogs aren't bears. No matter what the ignorant propaganda says.

[defacto7]

16. And dogs aren't ladders either.

[baldguy]

17. We don't have malicious propaganda saying Pit Bulls are useful to reach items at great height.

But the equally absurd posts with taking points saying Pit Bulls are nothing but dangerous and unpredictable killers are allowed a free pass.

[TeeYiYi]

75. Broken ladder. Broken dog.

If my ladder broke, I'd blame my ladder. If my dog chewed my arms off, I'd blame my dog.

TYY

[Luminous Animal]

87. If I raised my dog to chew people's arms off, I'd blame myself.

Raising a dog to react in a violent manner is raising a broken dog.

[TeeYiYi]

97. Since 99.99999% of people, more than likely...

...don't raise their dogs to chew the arms off of people, I have to say I feel pretty comfortable blaming the dog when arms go missing. In that rare, infinitesimal example where a dog chewed some arms off because it was raised to be an arm chewer...well, I guess we might want to consider placing blame on the dog owner.

TYY

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Right on! Hell, a lab could have done the same.

Or a poodle. Or a hung-over Chihuahua; they get really foul-tempered.

[jazzimov]

6. Headline: Boy, 3, left with horrific facial injuries as Labrador savages him at ...

Boy, 3, left with horrific facial injuries as Labrador savages him at ...
Logan Trim was left with horrific facial injuries when he was mauled by the black Labrador in a park at Poole Harbour, Dorset. The attack was ...

Mother's arm ripped open by Labrador attack in ... - Henley Standard
Jun 10, 2013 - A MOTHER has told how her arm was ripped open in an attack by a dog as she tried to...

Fatal dog attacks in the United States - Wikipedia, the free ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States‎
There were multiple retriever attacks, including three Goldens and one Labrador, and there were two fatal attacks by very small breeds: a Dachshund, which is a ...

Yep, sure looks like it!

[MannyGoldstein]

12. Chewing arms off an owner is a whole other universe

Not that, say, biting children isn't awful.

[Major Nikon]

22. Also from your cite...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States#Fatalities_reported_in_2013

Just sayin'

[baldguy]

26. News reports are notoriously innaccurate whan it comes to ID'ing the breed in fatal dog attacks.

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/

And the breed has never been the most important factor in such tragedies, anyway.

Just sayin'

[Major Nikon]

30. Be that as it may you don't see poodle or chihuahua on that list very often

Just sayin'

[XemaSab]

27. Pit bulls are only identifiable if they do something good

If they do something bad, they're impossible to ID.

I mean, those dogs could have been border collies or Newfoundlands or chi-poos or anything, really.

[baldguy]

13. You're right.

Dog killed 2-month-old baby, ripped child’s legs off while father slept in other room: police

Labrador shot and killed after attacking toddler in Maine

3-Year-Old Savaged by Labrador

Poodle kills Chihuahua at park

Poodle Attacks Pit Bull

So, can I expect your support for legislation to ban Labradors & Poodles. Right?

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. Nice little doggie, now run along

and chew the lady's arms off.

Adios, Tuxedo.

[Llewlladdwr]

8. Pit bulls are dangerous and unpredictable.

No one needs an assault dog....

[TheCowsCameHome]

9. Extra butter on mine, please.........

[baldguy]

15. They're only as dangerous as their humans.

Of course, if you're afraid of what humans might do ....

[XemaSab]

42. If looking at them the wrong way makes them attack their owners

then why were they used as nanny dogs?

Wouldn't children be more likely to provoke them into assault?

[quinnox]

10. Not surprised you take the pit bull's side

[gopiscrap]

11. holy shit

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

18. So let me ask you this

You are essentially saying that ALL dogs are potentially dangerous, and that playing with a puppy without doing intense research first could make you lose your arms?

ffs

[baldguy]

21. Dogs are carnivores. They are ALL equipped to kill things & eat what they kill.

If you don't understand that... If you don't believe that... And if you don't think it's necessary to take active steps to curtail, redirect & control the natural tendencies inherent in every dog - then you shouldn't have or be around any dog ever. Dogs don't deserve that.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

37. the twelve dogs that have been in my life would disagree with you

Most likely I have made mistakes. But I've never been bitten, not once, ever. Not even by my vicious (according to you) dachshund, Ozzy.

[XemaSab]

19. Every single dog owner makes mistakes with their dogs

I'm sure I do a dozen things every day that confuse, excite, challenge, or provoke my dogs, yet they haven't attacked me.

Why is it mostly pit bulls that are such delicate flowers that looking at them the wrong way "makes" them rip your arms off?

[Bonobo]

24. That's ultimately the issue.

If a pit bull savages a loved one of mine, I really don't give a fuck to hear about i being a victim of being looked at the wrong way.

[renie408]

104. This /\

We currently have five dogs ranging from some kind of mop looking thing that weighs 14 pounds to a GSD weighing 90 lbs. I have owned dozens of dogs in my life time. I feel sure that I have probably screwed some of them up and made some mistakes (poor kids, same deal in their case).

Never, not once, have I been attacked by my own dog. Ever. Since I could walk and talk and the dogs were my best friends.

[Sunlei]

20. I hope they did a full necropsy on the dog. This a rare type of bite case.

It is rare for a dog attack to consume flesh and remove limbs. Multi bites yes, dogs can cause deep punctures from hard bites & tear skin but it's rare for a dog to rage like this one did.

[baldguy]

23. I hope they charge the son with neglecting, training & harboring a dangerous animal.

Of course, they won't because it's an "evil Pit Bull".

[KamaAina]

137. That area of Connecticut is a hot spot for rabies

a young girl actually died from it in nearby Greenwich a few years ago.

[XemaSab]

138. Looks like a rabies tag

[Sunlei]

141. yes that is a rabies tag & the dog was only 2 yrs old, so he was vaccinated at least once.

can see the tags look like the dog wore them for over a year, the tags are worn down. It wasn't a rabid dog, just a dog that probably was not handled much by the mother.

Maybe she did something simple like take his collar to bring him in the house and the dog went into a rage over that. see the collar even has bite marks on the plastic parts. the collar was off on the grass.

maybe the collar was loose, and twisted around her hand & that added to the severity of the bites and limb loss.

people can lose their fingers pretty easy if they're caught up in collars, leashes or with horses in reins, ropes.

[Orrex]

25. The same thing happened to a woman with her dachshund

Oh wait. No it didn't ever.

[baldguy]

28. Oh, really?

Dachshund Mauls Baby, Critically Injuring Him

Police justify shooting, killing 12-pound miniature dachshund in self-defense

Dog attacks study highlights dachshunds as the most aggressive breed

[Orrex]

31. Do a lot of dachshunds tear off their owner's arms?

How can you claim in one post that breed is a weak predictive factor when determining aggression, and then post the assertion that the dachshund is the most aggressive breed?


Are you actually claiming that an aggressive 12 pound dachshund is as dangerous as an aggressive 70 pound pit bull?

[baldguy]

34. An aggressive dog is more dangerous than a docile dog, no matter what the size.

The fact that there are millions Pit Bulls living as valued & valuable additions to loving families provides absurdly overwhelming evidence that they are not aggressive. There are a few - very few - that are abused, neglected, mistreated, tortured and even killed by the humans are supposed to care for them BUT THAT MAKES THE PIT BULLS THE VICTIMS!! Your solution seems to be to punish the victim, along with every other dog that merely looks like them.

[Orrex]

36. Tell us exactly what a pit bull is

You've still never answered that question, despite being asked multiple times.

As Xchrom has correctly noted, a dog that mauls people can somehw never be identified as a pit bull, but when the dog does something good, it's obviously a pit bull. How can this be? How does this magical breed defy identification except when its behavior is laudable?

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

39. I see you are left hanging again.

Quelle surprise.

[baldguy]

40. Because that posters false & disengenious definition of "Pit Bull"

doesn't include the 99.99999% of Pit Bulls that aren't killers, and the poster insists on identifying as Pit Bulls dangerous animals that aren't Pit Bulls at all.

The poster is definitely toward the far end of the scale, and beyond:

[Orrex]

41. Yeah, well. You're the one who thinks dachshunds are more dangerous than pit bulls

Funny how I've asked you more than a dozen times to identify a pit bull, and this is the first time you've made any attempt to do so, and you still haven't quite manged to answer it, though you've managed once again to call me a crazy liar.

How do you identify an American Pit Bull Terrier or an American Staffordshire Terrier with certainty? What, exactly, identifies the breed?

Please don't offer something half-assed like an appeal to documented pedigree, because that's just another way of saying that you have no idea.

And when someone says "I love pit bulls," are they referring specifically and only to those two breeds? Or are pit bull fans allowed to generalize, even while you require AKC precision from people who don't adore these animals?



Funny how, in your view, anyone who doesn't like it when a pit bull mauls someone is a crazy, lying, genocidal, hateful, ignorant bigot.

[TorchTheWitch]

45. What kind of silly question is that?

Do you or anyone else here need to be told what a German Shepherd is or what a Poodle is or what a Golden Retriever is, etc.? They're all dogs with particular physical attributes that make them a certain breed and that intermingling specific breeds is what we tend to refer to as a "mutt" that will have physical attributes from both parents that may or may not be equally represented.

Who the hell has ever said that no pit bull has every bitten or mauled anyone? Of course some have. Just like some other dog breeds have done the same. Seeing as the Pit Bull is the latest most popular breed particularly among nefarious people that use them as fighting dogs and those people that think that's cool and want to pretend they have a tough fighting dog or purposely allow and encourage aggressive behavior with the belief that this makes the the dog an ideal protector of the family yet without the understanding that it also makes them more dangerous to the family is it any wonder that Pit Bulls are likely involved in more dog bits or maulings than other dog breeds? And once again, it is the OWNERS that have created these monsters by their desire to have the most fashionable of the times protection dog breed just like it had been in the past with Doberman or German Shepherds and no doubt other breeds before our life times.

Dogs are dogs. They are all genetically predisposed to behave like dogs with a pack structure that defines a single leader be it dog or human that is confident, fair and consistent in directing the human or dog pack as well as protect its members, and when any dog regardless of breed perceives the human leader as incompetent and there is no other human in their human/dog pack they perceive as up to the task they will step into that role as it is also genetically ingrained that a competent leader is essential to the survival of the pack be it human or dog. And this is exactly where humans fall down on the job since most either don't portray a satisfactory leader to the dog, don't know that they need to, and don't recognize behavior traits in the dog that designate that the dog has taken that leadership role. The only reason that any dog will attack another dog or a human is they either perceive themselves to be the leader and are reacting normally as a leader dog would in a given situation where they perceive another dog or human to be a threat or the person that the dog perceives as its leader isn't there, and there is no other dog or human of higher rank available at the time to protect the pack and/or its territory.

Dogs also have individual personalities that will make one dog naturally more dominant or aggressive or docile and everything in between. Those dogs that are naturally more docile with improper training and human/dog interactive environment can become too fearful which can lead to fear aggression, and dogs that are naturally more dominant or aggressive with improper training and human/dog interactive environment are likely to express that natural tendency into improper behavior such as refusing to obey commands, growling, biting, etc. This is also where human owners fall down on the job in not having the necessary knowledge to properly train and live with a dog so that any natural tendency in individual dogs as to their natural behavior can be arrested.

Certain dog breeds can also have specific tendencies of natural behavior they may or may not posses, and can be properly trained and live with humans who recognize that the dog has these natural tendencies and takes those steps to curb or eliminate them. Any dog regardless of breed that has a natural tendency of aggression toward humans won't attack any human as long as it is properly trained and lives in a family environment where the dog perceives it is the lowest ranked member and when left alone is always contained from the ability to harm any person. And this is what should be required of every dog owner. However, contrary to popular belief the Pit Bull does NOT have a breed specific natural tendency of aggression toward humans which is exactly why they make an ideal breed for fighting. Dog fighters don't WANT a dog that may have a natural tendency to be aggressive toward humans because the single most likely target of such a dog's aggression is going to be their owner that abuses them and forces them to fight other dogs. The dog fighting world has already made the enormous mistake of attempting to introduce a breed of dog that DOES have a natural tendency toward human aggression because they wanted a larger fighting breed, namely the Presa Canario, which very quickly led to disastrous results for the owners and other humans involved in the world of dog fighting. Good, I say, that a lot of dog fighting owners and other participators got their asses handed to them by a breed of dog that wasn't willing to put up with that disgusting abusive shit.

Sadly, most dog owners are clueless about a dog's natural dog behavior, don't know how to properly train and live with their dog so that it is well behaved and obeys all commands even with high level distraction nor know how to recognize either bad behavior or clues that the dog is becoming dominant or aggressive or perceives that it is the leader of the human/dog family unit. And that's why the world is full of dog bites or maulings where their owners had noooooooo ideaaaaaaaaaaa that their dog could behave that way. And is also why in every single dog bite or mauling the dog was behaving perfectly normally for a dog because of their genetically ingrained behavior that hasn't changed an iota since dogs were wolves. And that's why it will continue to happen as long as dog owners fail in the job of becoming knowledgeable about dog behavior, and can and does properly train and live with their dog accordingly regardless of its breed or individual tendency to certain undesirable behavior.

[baldguy]

56. The problem with some of the anti-Pit Bull dog haters

is that the primary characteristic they use to define "Pit Bull" as any dog that bites a person. Basically, anything with four legs and a tail.

That wouldn't be such a problem, except they never express concern about the people that abuse, torture & kill these dogs for pleasure. And their "solution" is to murder every Pit Bull, along with anything that looks like a Pit Bull, and anything that might be a Pit Bull if you squint at it in the right light.

[OwnedByCats]

126. Well said

and predictably ignored by our anti-pit bull crowd because you make sense.

[snooper2]

127. The difference is you can punt a Dachshund 20 yards

A Pit, not so much, would just grab your leg as you try to kick

[hfojvt]

29. pit bulls don't kill people

people do

[hollysmom]

80. Oddly enough this is more true than a gun

A gun needs someone to shoot it. Dogs attacking a person is either starved to insanity and abused in some way. You can make any dog vicious, but larger dogs do more damage, soft mouthed dogs do less damage (my "vicious" dog is soft mouthed, can't bite down hard on anything, can't eat rawhide).

I am very curious about the dog owners and what exactly they were doing with that dog.I see the mother lived in the house with the dog. don't know what to say about that They can kill this dog, but if they let the sons have another dog, they can create another vicious animal. My brother-in-law wanted to create a vicious protective dog, but it would still try to put it's 200 pound body into my lap and curl up. My mother in law fed him all the time, so he was never hungry, she would sneak him snacks all the time, and he could bark meanly, but there were too many softner people in his life and he was a big baby. Which is a good thing.

[lonestarnot]

32. The little ankle snapper that chewed off my hands when I was trying to rescue it with nothing to get

it with but my hands, wasn't its fault either. I felt sorry for both of us. The story ended well though. I recovered and the doggie got back home.

[Union Scribe]

33. Were her sleeves too short?

What a helpful article btw. In order not to force this breed to attack you, lol, one should not:

--look at dog
--touch dog
--move arms
--make sounds
--play with dog

Sounds like people just shouldn't have them.

[baldguy]

35. No, it's just SOME people shouldn't have them.

Like the people that identify an aggressive dove by the way the dog looks, instead of by what the dog does.

Like the anti-Pit Bull dog haters here.

[XemaSab]

38. So you propose some sort of test before people are allowed to own pit bulls?

I totally agree.

If they're so mentally unstable that looking at them the wrong way causes them to rip your arms off, then they shouldn't be in the hands of the general public.

[hollysmom]

82. I would not mind a test before some people could own any pet.

Like the people who owned that anaconda that killed their sons when it got out of it's case.

[Arugula Latte]

43. I'll stick with kitties.

[flvegan]

44. I'm just glad that so many folks with genuine, ongoing real world experience checked in here.

I mean, it's easy to read shit on the internet. "My neighbor" and "I knew this guy" aside. So many dog behaviorists with real world experience checking in on a thread like this, well done baldguy.

"Oh, but a (insert dog breed here) never tore arms off" is such a stupid way out of the conversation, but is expected here on DU by almost single topic posters who know damn near fucking nothing of the topic outside of *gasp* what the internet told he/she/them.

Morons.

[baldguy]

47. At what point does the moronic turn into the malicious?

Displaying such immense glee when tragic incidents occur that are be blamed on Pit Bulls, however erroneously. Endlessly posting the same lies, distortions and myths which have been repeatedly debunked - the objective being the murder 18-20 million innocent animals. And if anyone brings a little bit of truth & sanity into the discussion, they're mercilessly attacked.

This Pit Bull hating anti-dog cult cling to illogical, unscientific lies. They selectively cry about tragic incidents, but refuse to acknowledge the real problems that cause them. They advocate legislation that doesn't solves the problem it purports to address, and causes immense harm to millions of people instead. They want to enact racism into law. And they treat anyone who disagrees with them as a mortal enemy. They're more like Freepers & Teabaggers than anything else.

[Orrex]

51. At the point of the OP, in this case.

Why do you ask?

[Orrex]

50. Single-topic posters certainly are a problem

For instance, some chest-thumping blowhards will post almost exclusively about PETA or their sacred pit bulls, and they lash out with crazed ferocity at anyone who challenges them on their worship.

Wacky stuff indeed.

[baldguy]

52. The most flagrant anti-Pit Bull dog-hating poster on DU only posts lies about Pit Bulls.

I've never seen her post anywhere else on any other subject.

Same can't be said about others here. I think you owe us an apology.

[Orrex]

57. Really? It's preposterous that you would ask for that, but okay.

I apologize for being called a crazy, lying, hateful, ignorant genocidal bigot by you.


Feel better?

[pnwmom]

46. The dog isn't to blame but he might have to be put down anyway. n/t

[Mariana]

86. It absolutely should be put down.

It's far too dangerous to be allowed to live.

[Nine]

48. The article title is offensive to me.

A woman just had her arms ripped off and someone is suggesting, without any evidence, that perhaps she provoked the attack? Disgusting.

The author of that article is selling a book about dog training. Of course she is going to focus on training instead of breeding.

[baldguy]

53. Par for the course for the dog haters: can't handle the truth.

[XemaSab]

54. Pit bulls were bred to kill

And kill they do.

[baldguy]

55. Many different dog breeds have been bred to kill.

Bull baiting was considered "sport" at one time. And some vicious PEOPLE still abuse & torture their Pit Bull victims to fight for their sick & twisted pleasure.

You just want an excuse to torture & abuse these victims further.

[XemaSab]

58. I want all pit bulls to be spayed and neutered

Apparently that equals torture and abuse in your book.

Pit bulls were created to kill. They have no other purpose, and they should be phased out.

[baldguy]

59. 99.9999999% of Pit Bulls were bred, traind & raise to be companions & members of human families.

Just like 99.9999999% of all dogs.

And what you're advocating in genocide.

[XemaSab]

60. They were bred to fight

If it doesn't have fighting ancestry, it's not a pit bull.

And I can train and raise my shepherd to not kill mice, but it's her genetic makeup, it's what she does.

[baldguy]

61. Repeating a lie doesn't turn it into the truth.

You're taking your debate tactics from Rush Limbaugh.

[XemaSab]

62. What were pit bulls originally bred for?

You tell me.

[baldguy]

63. Asked & answered.

Read Post # 55 again. I'm not afraid of the truth as you seem to b.

Why do you advocate the torture, abuse & killing of the victims of dog fighting through BSLs? Why do you hate dogs so much?

[XemaSab]

64. They were bred to fight and kill

Per your own answer.

Why do you blame the victims of dog attacks?

I bet you also blame women who are raped.

[baldguy]

65. My argument doesn't begin & end with blaming the victim. As yours does.

I'm just recognizing who the victims are. Which you are not.

You make Uncle Rush happy & proud. I'm sure.

[XemaSab]

66. A woman had her arms torn off by her dog

but of course the dog is the real victim.

I'm sure she looked at the dog wrong or made some sudden movement or touched the dog or did something to hurt the dog's precious little feelings, at which point the dog had no choice but to viciously maim her.

[baldguy]

67. And you're letting the real culprit - the son who neglected & abused the dog - off scot-free.

After all, you've found your scape goat.

[XemaSab]

68. You have a link to substantiate that?

You think Darla Napora abused her dog too?

And all the other people who have been killed by their own dogs?

[baldguy]

69. Tell me, how many humans are killed by dogs each year?

Here's a hint:
http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/

What are the primary factors in canine aggression?

Here's another hint: It's not the breed.

By concentrating on the breed - and relying on breed ID that misleading, inaccurate & just plain wrong - you display your total inadequacy in the ability to discuss the issue in a reasonable & intelligent manner.

Of course, advocating genocide for 8-12 million innocent animals & family members based on bigotry & racism is neither reasonable nor intelligent.

[XemaSab]

70. I'm sure this little boy was responsible for provoking the dogs:

http://blog.dogsbite.org/2013/07/beyond-the-interview-essay-of-a-fatal-pit-bull-mauling.html

BREED MATTERS.

If you were going to get a dog for waterfowl hunting, for working cattle, for doing search and rescue, or for being a seeing eye dog, would you use a pit bull for any of these tasks? Why or why not?

BECAUSE BREED MATTERS.

[baldguy]

71. God gave you a gift. You shovel well. You shovel very well.

You can stop now.

[XemaSab]

72. Wow! You're a fast reader!

You think that entire story is a lie made up by people who hate dogs?

Why do you hate children?

[Orrex]

81. He already knows All The Facts

Why should he waste time reading your racist, classist, crazy, lying, ignorant, genocidal bigotry?

Or something.

[flvegan]

96. WTF is wrong with you?

"I bet you also blame women who are raped.?

[XemaSab]

99. Woman Attacked by Man and Gets Raped: Was it Provoked or Out of the Blue?

How does that sound to you?

[baldguy]

112. You think dogs have the same cognitive abilities as humans?

Rape is a crime of one person trying to dominate & control another person. Dogs bit & attack people and other dogs out of fear. To compare the two as you're doing extremely offensive.

[XemaSab]

135. So every pit bull who attacked a small child did so because it was afraid of the child?

And dogs never attack each other in order to dominate each other?

Now I *KNOW* you're lost in crazy pit nutter fantasy land.

That story about the 2-yo who was ripped apart by dogs: what did that kid do to provoke those dogs? He must have done something to set them off. What was it?

Oh, wait, it doesn't matter, does it?

When men are "provoked" into raping women who are dressed the wrong way or who acted the wrong way or who were out too late or in the right part of town, those men are not safe and they go to jail. When one breed of dog is "provoked" into attacking and killing toddlers on a regular basis, that dog breed is not safe.

[B Calm]

49. are Chihuahuas miniature Dobermans?

[In_The_Wind]

107. I know a few people who think they are.

[B Calm]

113. My dad had one who thought he was a bad ass. Hell

of a good watch dog, but the little bastard would attack you just for the fun of it.

[Nevernose]

73. The picture is inaccurate

"Pit Bulls" have been to blame since the eighties. They have been the breed d'jour to hate at least since the late eighties.

[baldguy]

74. It's not just hate.

There's a big helping of racism & classism heaped in there.

[Bonobo]

76. Everyone knows that dog breeds behave differently.

Pretending otherwise is stupid.

[baldguy]

77. And pretending that training, care & love don't make a difference is evil.

Assessing collective guilt on a group of individuals and sentencing them to mass punishment is evil. Especially when that punishment involves genocide.

[Bonobo]

78. "Evil"?

Well, yes, training and love make a difference.

I will agree with that if you will agree that certain dog breeds are prone to more aggression than others.

That would be, like, well two people agreeing on something that is FUCKING OBVIOUS.

Right?

[baldguy]

83. Yes, racism is evil. Even when applied to animals. Fucking obvious.

And humans have not bred dogs for 35,000 to be aggressive toward humans. Fucking obvious. The fact that you keep insisting otherwise proves just how clueless you are.

[Orrex]

84. Is it possible for you to discuss a subject without attacking everyone?

I mean, I know that you'll like to bark and chase your own tail and lick your own...

Well, it would be nice if you occasionally posted something of substance, rather than posting bullshit, baseless accusations about people who don't buy into your cultish mindset.

[flvegan]

93. I'd laugh at the hypocrisy if it wasn't so...

Something of substance...not bullshit...please don't make it so easy.

Now, when you have some data, serve it up and skip the middleman Orrex.

Cultish. Irony.

[baldguy]

103. How polite should one be when dealing with people who want to murder a member of your family?

And genocide on top of it?

[Orrex]

108. See? There you go again.

Who here has called for the murder of a member of your family? If you have the pseudo courage to make the accusation, you should at least have the integrity to name names.

For the record, the suggestion that pit bulls should be spayed/neutered is not a call to murder baldguy's family.

Find me the post in which someone has asserted "I want all pit bulls to be exterminated." Find me the post in which someone has indicated their wish that someone in your family be murdered. If you can't provide such posts, then you need to admit that your favorite plea for sympathy is in fact bullshit.

[baldguy]

114. You whine about being attacked when facts are posted,

but your whole argument relies upon attacking innocent dogs and the people who love them.

Interesting. ... And sad.

[Orrex]

118. That's a lie

your whole argument relies upon attacking innocent dogs and the people who love them.

Nope. And since that's a lie, I have no reason to refute it.

You also haven't backed up your previous claim that people here have called for the murder of your family members.

Do you admit that that is a lie as well?

[Bonobo]

85. No, clueless would be someone that thinks pitbulls and labradors have equal temperament. nt

[flvegan]

91. Got anything valid to differentiate?

[Bonobo]

92. Labradors have less aggressive/defensive temperaments than pit bulls.

I really don't think that is a controversial statement.

And please don't tell me that I am clueless.

I worked in an animal hospital for 2 years.

[flvegan]

94. Do tell.

Seriously, back that up. Show your work.

Not making it personal, "clueless" etc.

[Bonobo]

95. I don't have any scientific results.

Naturally I am sharing my experience which, admittedly, is really nothing more than personal anecdotes and observations. Combined with what I think is common sense.

[flvegan]

98. Fair enough.

Thank you for answering. I hope you and your family are well, Bonobo.

[Bonobo]

100. Thank you, Fivegan.

We're all well and I hope the same for you as well, friend.

[baldguy]

117. Of course there is a scientific test for temperment:

http://atts.org/breed-statistics/

And again of course, the anti-Pit Bull cult ignores it because it discredits their position.

[Orrex]

122. So... statistics that you post are gospel truth

But statistics are bullshit if they contradict your cult's dogma.


Interesting.

[Beringia]

79. I don't know why the pit bull bit off her arms

And I certainly have not researched the subject. But I do agree with the viewpoint that it is up to the human owner to train their dog to be safe and socialized. I once was bitten by a kind of hound dog and it was the owner's fault. She had it on the kind of leash where it stretches out for a whole block. The dog chased me and bit my wrist. She did not yell to stop it or control it. I went to the ER to make sure it did not cause an infection and I was sent to animal control. By the time I got home, she told me she had the dog euthanized because she was told she was at risk of being sued, and she also had her daughter's toddler in her home. I felt horrible, but then I did not want to play Ninja everytime I walked outside. (She lived right below me in an apartment).

Then a while later, she had bought a kind of german shepard or doberman mix. It was only about 8 months old or so. When I walked past her door one day, the dog was standing up on its hind legs baring its teeth. When I saw the lady again, I told her she should get the dog trained. But she just ignored me. I think this lady did not properly raise her dogs, they had a lot of fear inside of them and were not socialized. I still feel horrible every time I think of the dog being euthanized and I believe it was the owner's fault.

[Mariana]

88. You shouldn't feel horrible.

A dog that bites a person for no good reason should be PTS immediately. Whether they've been bred that way or made that way by their owners isn't really relevant then. Once a dog starts biting people it's too late. Vicious dogs are just too dangerous.

[OwnedByCats]

102. A dog that bites should be put to sleep

immediately? Is that for the first offense? You do realize that there are reasons dogs may bite and not always reflective of their natural temperament, right? Dogs can bite when sick, injured, fearful, or just protecting it's offspring, are just a few and are many more, and you can't always determine it was for "no good reason". Most dog bites don't even require a hospital visit unless they need stitches. If a dog half tears your arm off or actually kills someone, that's different.

[Mariana]

133. A dog that goes after a pedestrian on a public street and bites her

as the poster described, has bitten a person for no good reason and should be PTS immediately. It is dangerous.

[SidDithers]

140. Agreed. 100%...

And my wife, who had nine rabies shots yesterday, after being bitten by a dog that the dumbass owner didn't control, also agrees.

Every dog that bites should be reported to public health and destroyed. A few dozen generations of enforced evolution and aggressive dogs won't be a problem.

Sid

[OwnedByCats]

144. You still can't judge it was no good reason even

under that circumstance. If that dog has a history of attacking people on the street, that's one thing and should be dealt with, but if that dog has never done that before, that's quite an extreme knee jerk reaction. So because a dog bites once, does that mean that dog will do it again and maybe kill someone? If that were the case then we'd have deaths well into the tens of thousands instead of the 30 some people per year when you count all deaths by any dog, not just the pit bulls. So would this apply to all dogs, or just pit bulls? What if it was a little teacup dog that does not have the capacity to seriously maim or kill? Do you think they should be put down also?

So if I punch someone in the face, out of the blue, does that mean I'm likely to kill someone so I should get the death penalty immediately? It might indicate I have a problem, but that doesn't mean I'm surely going to kill someone someday or do serious bodily harm. When a dog bite occurs, everything must be taken into account - negligence of the owner or abuse from owner if it applies, the dog's history, and ascertain as best as possible what the circumstances were concerning that bite. I know it's not as easy as just calling animal control to pick up the dog to be euthanized, but that's no excuse for laziness.

Now I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming your goal here would be to prevent serious bodily harm or death - but if you mean any bite, no matter how minor the injury and that dog has a clean history - that's messed up. I know getting bit is not pleasant, but there are much worse things that can happen - it's pretty extreme to kill a dog for that.

[Beringia]

136. What would you suggest

Last edited Thu Nov 21, 2013, 01:56 PM - Edit history (1)

someone do, if the dog next door bites you and the owner is passive, and does not know how or will not learn how to control their dog? Also dog bites can easily cause infection. Also being bitten by a dog is traumatic. An aggressive biting dog is like a crazy person with a knife. You wouldn't say, oh well he only knifed you a little, no big deal.

And it is like you did not read my post.

- I said I think the dog acted out of fear.
- The owner was raising her 2nd dog the same way, with it showing signs of fear of strangers.

If she would have offered to train it or put muzzle on it, that would have been fine. She had it euthanized without talking to me or offering any solutions to the problem and did not care about her 2nd dog possibly becoming a dangerous dog.

[OwnedByCats]

143. My post was not directed at you

I was talking to the one who made the blanket statement that a dog that bites "for no good reason" should be put down IMMEDIATELY without going into detail as to when it's appropriate and when it's not and how you can tell that it was actually for "no good reason". That sounded to me like a person who doesn't understand that not all dogs bite out of aggression and not always representative of the dog's true nature and doesn't mean that dog will someday kill a person. A dog that is a habitual biter should be dealt with accordingly. If a dog bites once, heading right out to put that dog to sleep is pretty extreme. So I wasn't lecturing you about why dogs bite.

Anyway, everything was all on the owner. If she would have done this, or if she would have done that ... exactly. Instead of doing the right thing, she chose to take the easy way out instead of working on the issue. Sadly too many irresponsible people have dogs which is what creates this mess.

[TeeYiYi]

89. There's a dog that chases me...

... and tries to bite me every time I pass the house where it lives; usually when I'm on my bike.

It looks like this dog:



I used to stop my bike and stand still, hoping to make friends. That ploy didn't work so well. The dog ran up behind me and clamped down hard on my leg. It broke skin, bled and left a bruise. Scary as fuck.

I went to the owner and told him that his dog always chases me and had finally managed to bite me; that if it would do that to me, it might do that to a child or elderly person. I showed him the bite. He told me he would put the dog down. I asked him not to, so he didn't. And I think he must have kept the dog on a leash for awhile because I didn't have much trouble with the dog after that.

Three days ago I was riding my bike past the "dog house" and it ran out more aggressive than ever toward me, barking, growling and snapping its teeth as it attempted to bite me again. I was scared to death. I pulled my legs up and tried to coast past it while screaming. I managed to kick it like a football and get away.

About an hour later, I went to visit a different neighbor and while there, she told me that she had been attacked by dog(s) as she was walking to the post office that same day. (I hadn't told her anything about my experience an hour earlier.) It was the same goddamned dog(s). (There are two of them but only one tries to bite me; the other one is old and fat.)

Guess what?... I blame that motherfucking, bike chasing, leg biting cunt of a dog. I don't blame the neighbor who owns it and should probably have had it on a leash. I don't give a shit if the dog has never been to charm school. I don't give one goddamn if that breed of dog is getting a bad rap. It's a dog that likes to attack people and gets more brazen with each episode of dogcunteyness.

To repeat my feelings from a post upthread: If my ladder breaks, I blame the ladder. If a dog chews my arms off, I blame the dog.

I haven't seen this dog for a couple of days. I suspect they must have finally put the dog down and this time, you guessed it, I don't care. The neighbor lady that this dog attacked the other day is in her 70s. Yeah, it probably should have been on a leash, but it bit me because it's a dog. It attacked the neighbor because it's a menace. I blame the fucking dog!

TYY

[Orrex]

90. Um. You might want to reconsider some of your wording there...

[baldguy]

105. If the dog had bit you, woud you have sued the dog? Or the owners of the dog?

The owners were being negligent to the public, and neglectful in training & socializing the dog. It's THE OWNERS' responsibility.

The thing is, the dog haters here would look at your situation and NOT advocate the mass slaughter of JRTs. But they support the genocide of all Pit Bulls because one may have "looked wrong" to someone somewhere sometime.

[Orrex]

110. Citation, please

But they support the genocide of all Pit Bulls because one may have "looked wrong" to someone somewhere sometime.

Who has done this, exactly? Who has called for pit bull genocide? If you can't name names and link to specific posts calling for such a program, then you need to admit that your plea for sympathy is false.

Why is it that you feel free to post unfounded accusations, but you require laser precision from anyone who doesn't worship your favorite brand of dog? What's it like to benefit from such a preposterous double standard?

[TeeYiYi]

119. The dog DID bite me...

...about five months ago. It tried again a few days ago.

I wouldn't sue my neighbor over a minor dog bite. I'd definitely hold the owners financially responsible if it chewed my arms off but I'd still blame the dog. We both know that a Jack Russell Terrier is not large enough or physically capable of chewing my arms off.

If JRTs, as a breed, had a history of violently attacking and maiming/killing people; chewing arms off and consuming them like a side dish, they would be looked upon with rightful disdain and feared by society at large.

If you want to blame the owners, I get it, but if a dog bites me or chews my arms off I'm also going to blame the dog. When I ride my bike past my neighbor's house, I don't fear the neighbor, I fear the dog.

TYY

[OwnedByCats]

101. Hey, of those here that believe pit bulls are

naturally evil - did you realize that President Obama is against breed specific legislation? Do you think he's stupid too now?

[renie408]

106. This is a false equivalency.

You cannot compare animal and human breeding. Should we develop a breeding program for humans that intentionally breeds humans for compact muscular build, small tight ears that cannot easily be ripped off in a fight, an incredible degree of jaw strength combined with the ability to lock down on whatever they have bitten AND an increased proclivity for fighting and work to perfect that combination for many, many generations...then you can make that comparison.

Do I think ALL Pit Bulls are bad dogs? Nope. Do I think being a Pit Bull should mean an automatic death sentence? Nope.

Do I think pretending that Pit Bulls and Golden Retrievers and President Obama are all just exactly alike is going help any dog anywhere? Nope.

[Orrex]

109. Pit bull jaws do not lock

I agree with the rest of your post, but pit bull fetishists love to seize on a single minor error and pretend that in invalidates an entire argument.

[OwnedByCats]

116. See, that kind of language right there

"Pit bull fetishists", don't be so ridiculous.

[Orrex]

121. Tell it to the fetishists

I didn't start using that term until they started flinging the claims about crazy, lying, hateful, ignorant, murderous genocidal bigots.

Pit bull fetishists who make such vile accusations destroy the credibility of anyone who would complain about a little reciprocal name-calling.

[OwnedByCats]

124. I don't see MOST pit bull advocates around here

saying that, don't tar everyone with the same brush. But then again, if you're all for breed specific legislation, you're well used to doing that. At least you're consistent.

[Orrex]

128. Then you're not a pit bull fetishist. Problem solved.

If you're not one of the chest-thumpers who's flinging those false and libelous accusations, then don't worry about it.

Do you worry that the fetishists, while calling people crazy, lying, hateful, racist, classist, ignorant, murderous genocidal bigots, are as careful to specify that they're only referring to people who advocate for tighter controls on pit bulls, rather than referring equally to everyone who doesn't simply adore these animals?

Why do you only complain about name-calling when it offends your sensibilities, rather than objecting to broad-brush libelous accusations by chest-thumping pit bull fetishists?

[OwnedByCats]

123. Not pretending anything

Pit bulls are more likely to be dog aggressive than human aggressive, if you want to talk about what they were bred for. They weren't bred for generations to tear people apart, but other dogs. The people who fight dogs, they'll kill a human aggressive dog because they don't want the dog to turn on them, they admit to that. Pit bulls were bred for other things too, but we never talk about those.

Not all dogs are the same, whole breeds of dog are not the same because each dog has it's own personality based on a myriad of factors, more so their upbringing and training than anything.

ANY dog can become aggressive under the right circumstances, even the popular Labrador, even the smallest teacup dog. You don't help them by pretending you can solve the problem by getting rid of an entire breed. All that will happen is another breed of dog will have it's reputation damaged beyond recognition, then you still have a damn problem with aggressive dogs. It happens in countries that have banned pit bulls, some other breed took it's place. This is an abusive and psychotic PEOPLE problem, not a breed problem.

[renie408]

130. Another false equivalency...I think, I might be confusing my logical fallacies...

"Pit bulls are more likely to be dog aggressive than human aggressive, if you want to talk about what they were bred for. They weren't bred for generations to tear people apart, but other dogs."

My Lab mix wasn't bred to retrieve balls; he was bred to retrieve birds. But throw that ball, and by God, he will bring it back every time. Or a stick or a piece of trash. Basically, you throw it, he is bringing it back.

I swear, I love dogs. All dogs. We have several Pit mixes in the family and they are all good dogs. But saying that they are just like any other dog is NOT doing them a service. You end up with people who should probably not have a Pit Bull under their car with their arms chewed off and another black mark against the breed. It would seem smarter to me to say "With good handling by the right kind of owner, Pit Bulls can make fantastic family dogs. However, they are not for everybody."

I train horses and have made a modest success of retraining off the track Thoroughbreds. Because they are bred for a great deal of flight and have been through race training, these horses are just not for everybody. They are strong, sensitive and QUICK when they get upset. They also seem to have a harder time calming themselves down once they get upset, so that presents a whole 'nother layer...Anywho, right now we have two in the barn that were sent to us as a last resort by owners who said that their other option was putting the horse down because they were dangerously unpredictable.

Bullshit.

They are great horses. One I have taken as my own personal horse and he is just as good as gold. The other is going to make a great horse for the right rider some day soon. But they are thin skinned, smart animals who tend to over react and work much, much better under someone who is non-reactive and uses firm, kind methods of handling. They are not for everybody. Now, I could go around saying that the prejudice against Thoroughbreds is unjust, or I can acknowledge that some people really should stick with a dead head QH. But pretending that they are not what they are is not going to do them any good. They wind up in the wrong hands with people who think they are dangerous and need to be put down.

[Orrex]

131. .

Excellent post.

[OwnedByCats]

145. If you asked me if I think a pit bull is the dog for everyone

I'd say no chance. People who are new to dog ownership for example, should not start with a pit bull. Anyone not willing to train that dog and socialize it correctly should not have a pit bull, but then they shouldn't own any dog, am I right? Anyone who doesn't understand how important it is for they themselves to be a good pack leader in order to raise a well adjusted dog should not have one. If they don't understand dog behavior, they should not have one.

I never said pit bulls were the same as any other breed of dog. I said any dog can be aggressive, I didn't say they will all be to the same degree or that their bred traits will never play a roll in that. Most breeds have things that differentiate them from other breeds. All dogs have different personalities and idiosyncrasies too that can play a role. You think because I blame the owners most of the time that means I think pit bulls can be owned by anyone and all dogs are the same? Seeing what is happening, evidently they can't be owned by just anyone and I never made such a statement. In homing a pit bull, a lot of things need to be taken into consideration. This is one of the reasons there are so many homeless pits among pit bull rescue groups because they can't place this kind of dog with just anyone. Their fitness to own one and living situation (can they have a pit at their residence, what other pets are in the house, is the property safe? etc), have to be looked at. Rescuers of pit bulls are fully aware they aren't the right dog for everyone for a myriad of reasons. And it's not just pits, there are many other breeds that require special circumstances, not just pits.

So I fail to see how I'm hurting pit bulls. I'm not the one who wants them all exterminated - not saying you do, but some people do. I don't advocate all people should own them, clearly that has proven unwise, it would be setting them up for failure by doing that. I want them owned by people who know what the hell they're doing. I want harsher penalties when the owner fails that dog, most especially if something tragic happens, such as death. I always want them spayed/neutered so there are less homeless pit bulls, less getting sent to the pound to live out their last days in a cage, less abuse and neglect. I advocate for the pit bulls who have never hurt anyone, which looking at the statistics shows most of them have never hurt anyone. With a highly aggressive one it's actually kinder to put them down, not to mention important in protecting the public.

I'll tell you what shapes my opinion - for whatever it's worth, probably not much because well, it's anecdotal. In my job, I have worked with around 80 pit bulls. Not a single one so much as growled at me. They are all owned by responsible owners. I also have friends who own pits, also responsible, they also do not show any aggression at all. I also know people who use them as service animals and they do a great job. Do you think there might be some correlation there? I'm not saying a good owner can't end up with a messed up pit bull even though they did everything right, but it sure drops the numbers of dangerous ones considerably when they have a good owner. Even when volunteering for a rescue group which is separate from my job, most of those pit bulls do not even show aggression and some of them have been through hell and back. Most of them are just happy to have friendly contact for once in their miserable lives. It's awfully hard for me to have this attitude that the breed is the problem after the experiences I have had, which has showed me that yes, most definitely this particular breed should not be owned by just anyone, but when a good owner is at the helm, the results are fantastic. I really don't think we disagree on very much here, but like I said, take it for what it's worth, or not at all, that's ok.

[renie408]

146. We probably don't really disagree at all.

I think that everybody gets down to a 'debate shorthand' when they are talking about something they have argued many times before. I think that maybe when you are saying that ALL dogs can be aggressive, which is true, that people get left with the impression that you are saying Pit Bulls are no different from any other breed. This is a subject about which you are obviously passionate and good on you for that. God knows, animals need people to defend them. I now understand your position better, thanks for being willing to elaborate. There are people, though, who will tell you that Pit Bulls are no different from any other dog and should be treated no differently. They will tell you EVERY TIME that the owner did something to provoke the attack. Which is probably true, but again, that owner doesn't need a dog that you can't play tug of war with when it is a puppy or it is going to eat their arms off when it grows up. To me, this intentional blindness does no one any good. Not the Pit Bulls and not people. If people ignore the fact that, in general and with exceptions, breeds do have certain personality tendencies and need different lifestyles and management approaches; the dogs are the ones that suffer the most. Except in the case of the lady with no arms hiding under her car. She suffered the most there.




(BTW...true story...my husband was bit by a miniature Schnauzer yesterday at a house he was working on. The dog came flying out of a back room and latched onto his calf. Left a nasty bruise and a couple of puncture wounds! Do we blame the dog? No. Stupid owner should have had him locked up. The owner then left the dog loose in the house and it growled and barked at my husband the whole time he was there working. I could hear it in the background when I called him!)

[OwnedByCats]

148. I totally agree with you

There are so called pit bull advocates that don't do them any good by acting as though pit bulls have no differences, saying it's ALWAYS the owner without knowing the facts because as much as I love pit bulls and every other breed out there, I know that sometimes it's not the owner, as much as I hate to see it. Dogs can be troubled without having a horrible owner. I say a lot of times it's the owner, but I usually can't get enough facts out of the media to make even a partial judgement on these cases we hear about. In the case of this woman, I don't know what happened there so I don't like to pretend I do know. I just get tired of the "all pit bulls are born vicious" narrative that's going around, people advocating to wipe out whole breeds of dog when they don't even know what they're talking about. Between those people, irresponsible owners and those who advocate for them that are not being completely honest or just ignorant, this breed has suffered and will continue to do so unless things change. Killing all of them is not the answer, but I know you're in agreement on that. I love all animals and hate with a red hot passion any kind of animal abuse or neglect, so you could say I'm pretty passionate! So I do always take the person into account when they ask me what kind of dog they should have. There is no size fits all, IMO.

And wow, your husband got unlucky yesterday! It boggles my mind how someone can allow their dog to bite and growl at someone in their house like that when they should have kept that dog away from him! That's crazy! Clearly they are the kind of people who should not have a pit bull (or even a min Schnauzer by the sounds of it!). Thank you for your good response!

[Orrex]

111. So you support the TPP, then?

Did you realize that President Obama is in favor of the Trans Pacific Partnership? Do you think he's stupid too now?

[OwnedByCats]

115. Missed the point entirely

and maybe that's because I wasn't referring to you.

My point is that if some of the more aggressive people pushing this kind of thing would -first of all, not be so disrespectful to President Obama as they are to people on this board. They would disagree with him in a more civilized way, but because none of us here are TPOTUS, it's a different story.

[Orrex]

120. It's a different story indeed.

If President Obama ran around thumping his chest and calling people crazy, hateful, lying, murderous, genocidal bigots, then it's very likely that people here would be as disrespectful as they are to the pit bull fetishists who fling such false accusations.

Also, the way you framed your post suggested that breed-specific legislation is bad because President Obama opposes it. The point that you missed is that it is possible to disagree with a person's conclusions without thinking that the person is stupid.

[OwnedByCats]

125. So you find it necessary to have this attitude towards people

who don't call you names, just because others do? I never said you were a crazy, hateful, lying, murderous, genocidal bigot.

[Orrex]

129. See reply 128

It's curious that you claimed that I'd missed your point entirely because you weren't referring to me, yet you then take issue with the term "pit bull fetishist" when it clearly doesn't apply to you, either.

Why the double standard?

[seveneyes]

132. It's time to breed the danger out of dangerous dogs

Every Pit Bull and its cousins, with the genetics to initiate violence and injury, needs to be neutered and spayed. There are just too many injuries and death attributed to these breeds. No need exists to continue propagation of these killers.

[dionysus]

134. the case for kittehs: they know where to poop and won't tear your arms off.

[SidDithers]

142. Nailed it...

Now, if I could only get my cat to stop jumping into the shower with me.

Sid

[SidDithers]

139. Dogs don't kill people. Dog owners kill people...

Have I got that about right?

Sid

[renie408]

147. I was thinking the same thing.

People here would go apeshit if you used that logic in relationship to guns.

[Sunlei]

151. How sad for the Mother, not out of the blue. "everyone gets the dog they deserve"

The dog was an extension of the Moms two bad sons.