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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGeorge Zimmerman Must Give Up Guns to Get Out of Jail
NOTE: The link provided, unfortunately, has a video at the top that plays whether you want it to or not...and, more obnoxiously, the video starts with an ad that, if you hit the pause button, causes another window to open with another ad. Don't hit the pause button during the ad. Sorry about the noise.George Zimmerman Must Give Up Guns to Get Out of Jail
ABC News
George Zimmerman was told today he must surrender his guns in order to get out of jail following his arrest for the alleged aggravated assault of his girlfriend.
A Florida judge set bond at $9,000 and Zimmerman's lawyers said they expect him to get out of jail Wednesday.
He must also wear an electronic monitoring device and have no contact with his girlfriend.
Zimmerman stood expressionless as the judge explained that there is probable cause in his case and a bead of sweat trickled down his face as the judge explained the conditions for his release.
The rest: http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-give-guns-jail/story?id=20938377
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TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)Imagine the cruelty of it all, having no guns to fondle.
Warpy
(111,254 posts)in a country where everybody but his NRA buddies is against him, so he thinks. Maybe they'll front him a bodyguard. He is one of their saints, killing a black teenager and getting away with it.
ETA: we should start a pool on how long it's going to take him to get caught with a black market gun.
spin
(17,493 posts)feel he was in the wrong and was looking for trouble when he left his truck to pursue Martin.
If Zimmerman was an example of a typical person who has a concealed carry permit in Florida it is my opinion that we would have AT LEAST one or more similar shootings per week. Over 1,000,000 Florida residents have valid concealed weapons permits at this time.
Warpy
(111,254 posts)Fortunately, few of them are spoiling for a fight the way Zimmerman seems to be. He's always had a serious screw loose. Unless he gets it tightened, he should never be allowed to carry a gun.
spin
(17,493 posts)Florida has currently over 1,000,000 individuals who have valid concealed carry permits. Obviously with that high a number there will be a few who should never had been allowed to carry. While many on this forum will disagree with me, I feel that it is rare to find a person who misuses his permit to commit a crime.
Florida implemented "shall issue" concealed carry in October of 1987. In the 26 years since the law has been in effect only 168 permits have been revoked for a crime involving the use of a firearm committed after the license was issued. During that period of time 2,559,832 licenses were issued and today there are a total of 1,195,291 currently valid carry permits. (ref: http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content/download/7499/118851/cw_monthly.pdf)
Originally I felt allowing "shall issue" concealed carry in Florida would be a total disaster. I was wrong. It has actually been a very successful program.
However I do believe that the Florida "Stand Your Ground" law needs a rewriting to eliminate the ambiguity and confusion that it contains.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)ALL gun owners will eventually snap and commit a gun crime. That is a Brady Talking Point.
spin
(17,493 posts)Last edited Wed Nov 20, 2013, 04:41 AM - Edit history (1)
I have a concealed weapons permit and carry on a regular basis. I have enjoyed target shooting handguns for over 40 years and I have a small collection of firearms that I have gathered over the years.
You, of course, imagine that I sit around fondling my firearms and imagining how I could blow someone away. The reality is that most of my firearms are "safe queens" which have been locked in my gun safe for at least two years without being touched. (I need to pull them out and do some preventive maintenance. Thanks for the reminder.)
Of course the handgun that I legally carry has been handled on a more frequent basis. I wouldn't say that I "fondle" it. I just grab it and its holster on the way out the door and drop both into my pants pocket. When I return to my house, the handgun and the holster go back in the safe.
O.K. enough trivia about me as an example of a typical gun owner. Let's cut to the chase. Here's why I agree with you;
I know a lot of people who have concealed carry permits as I live in Florida where over 1,000,000 residents have carry permits. Everybody who has such a permit that I personally know feels it is valuable. They also realize that they may lose their permit if they act violently in any situation.
At one time when someone cut me off in traffic I used to honk my horn and give them the bird. Now I avoid not only giving people the finger while driving but I will walk away from an argument even if it makes me look like a wuss. Basically I am far more polite than I was before I obtained my carry permit. I've talked to other people who have carry permits and they have had the same experiences.
One example is my son in law. My daughter attracted the attentions of a stalker. My son in law who has a carry permit considered simply confronting this stalker and beating the crap out of him. He could have easily done this as he is one tough SOB who among other things used to ride bulls in rodeo completion. He decided to let the legal system handle the problem and my daughter filed a restraining order, Of course this was useless at first but in the end the stalker was arrested and spent four weekends in lockup with a warning that the next step would be a year in prison. The stalker learned his lesson and quit. (I should mention that my daughter also had a carry permit. Had the stalker attacked her, she would have simply shot him.)
Of course the reason that my son in law didn't beat the crap out of the stalker was simply because he valued his carry permit. In the end all ended peacefully with no one injured.
So in my opinion allowing people to carry concealed may actually reduce the violent tendencies that many people have. Of course there are rare exceptions such as George Zimmerman.
I'm sure that this post will irritate you and lead you to reply in an insulting manner. I will always respect your viewpoint even if I disagree with it but I am willing to accept that on a very progressive and liberal forum such as DU it is not unusual to hate and despise those who own firearms. I am 67 years old and times have changed over the years. I am old enough to remember a time when many Democrats owned firearms and strongly supported the 2nd Amendment. Unfortunately now most are Republicans.
If you do decide to insult me in reply, I would appreciate it if you were original. I will compliment you if you do so. it I grow bored with the same old tired insults that usually are directed at me on this forum. (Note: I have a thick skin and have never alerted on a another poster.)
adieu
(1,009 posts)it just seems to me to be the same argument that religious people have that, "if there were no God, I'd be a rampaging raping, murdering, goat-fucking sinner," as if the fact that
"God" had put up a set of laws, all evil behaviors are now restrained.
I don't need a God to not rape a woman (or man, for that matter), or kill someone for sport. Nor do I need a CCW permit to behave with civility.
Nor should you and people you know. Chances are, you and those you are familiar with are rather civil already, and having a CCW wouldn't change that that much. But your claim that you believe the CCW helped you be more civil is a frightening thought, just like the thought that people can only be restrained from evil through the diktats of god.
spin
(17,493 posts)become more polite because of it. Remember that the science fiction writer Robert A. Heinlein said, "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
In order to get a carry permit most people have to attend a concealed weapons class. Such classes often spend a considerable amount of time emphasizing how any misuse of your weapon can land you in jail for a long period of time. Students learn that if it can be proved that you started a fight or caused it to escalate to the point that you felt it necessary to pull your handgun, you might be the one who ends up in jail. You learn the wisest choice is to avoid all confrontations or arguments.
A good class will also mention that if you do shoot another person you may need lengthy treatment for psychological problems such as depression and sleep disorders. Police officers often undergo such treatment after a shooting incident. Be aware that it doesn't matter in the least if the shooting was totally justified or not. The instructor will also inform you that if you do shoot another person it is quite possible that the legal expenses of the criminal and civil trial may easily bankrupt you.
In most states you have to pass a criminal background check prior to getting a carry permit. If you have a quick temper or love to get into fights, you likely will fail this test. Therefore I agree with your statement that those who have carry permits are "rather civil already."
I'm not sure what role God plays in this debate. Probably half the people I know who have carry permits and carry on a regular basis are atheists or agnostics. While they may not believe in God or may question his existence, I have often found such people to have high moral values and often to be as kind and generous as a good Christian and often more trustworthy than the average Christian. Of course I have often said that the only problem with Christianity is Christians.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)routinely carry thousands of dollars worth of gems in a briefcase on the streets going from jeweler to jeweler, in all that time we never carried concealed, we also never drew attention to ourselves and tried to act as casual as possible, but many of our friends in the trade did carry and I fully understand why, they felt they had a need to carry.
But for the average person to carry on the street just because they can, seems a bit over the top to me, but I will respect their right to do so.
I also understand someones right to collect firearms, as a collector of gems and minerals, who am I to judge a persons likes?
I now live in an wilderness area with lots of bears and mountain lions, but find more protection from my trusty dog then with a gun.
My intent with this post is not to insult you, but to thank you for a well reasoned post.
spin
(17,493 posts)I often advise people that the best way to avoid getting injured or killed while out in public is to not become a victim.
First we need to clear up a common misconception. Despite all the publicity, violent crime is at or near an all time low in our nation.
Crime Drops to All-Time Low
JUN 12, 2012 02:30 PM ET // BY SHEILA M. ELDRED
Kids today may not be running around the neighborhood without fear like Beaver Cleaver, but the country is in the midst of low levels of crime not seen in decades, according to a report released this week by the FBI.
Violent crime, which has been falling for five years, decreased 4 percent in 2011, according to the Preliminary Annual Uniform Crime Report. Murders are at the lowest point in 40 years. Violent crime, according to the FBI, includes murder, rape, robbery and assault.
http://news.discovery.com/human/violent-crime-statistics-120612.htm
The streets are not incredibly violent with bad guys lurking behind the bushes on every street. Still violent crime does occur. Realistically most people will never face a violent criminal and many chose to adopt the "it will never happen to me" approach. Other people may chose to be prepared just in case luck turns against them.
The firearm industry is pushing the idea that everybody should run out and buy self defense firearms for home defense and personal protection. Sometimes I fear gun manufacturers are suggesting that there is a zombie apocalypse of criminals lurking just outside the door of your house. I don't necessarily feel the best defense for everybody is to buy an "assault rifle" and a high cap semi auto pistol. A little commonsense should be applied.
There are plenty of ways to help make your home more secure. Many excellent web sites will give you some good ideas on how to make your home difficult to break into. Owning a firearm for home defense is a decision that should require a lot of serious thought. There is always the possibility that a firearm in your home could cause a tragedy. If you do decide to buy a home defense weapon, a short barreled shotgun might be an excellent choice. Be aware that all firearms in a home should be properly secured.
Once you leave your home for your daily activities the most effective self defense measure you can use is called situational awareness. Put in simple terms that just means that you don't walk around with a cell phone glued to your ear totally oblivious to the world around you. Instead you are alert to your environment and simply slightly watchful. People are fascinating and you can make people watching a fun sport. The fact that you are alert and observant should make it far less likely that you will ever be a victim. Bad guys often avoid attacking people who are alert. Such people can give good descriptions to the police and often people who have martial arts training or are legally carrying a handgun practice situational awareness. The smart predator looks for the weakest members of the herd.
Of course a step up is to take a good self defense course. A Karate course or a class in one of the many martial arts can prove to be a worthwhile investment that will not only teach you tactics to use if you are ever attacked but will get you in top physical shape which may also save your life as being fit it is good defense against many serious medical conditions.
Sometimes a simple self defense course is offered where you learn basic skills that you can use in a violent confrontation. You may never get a black belt from such a class but you may learn some valuable skills which may help you escape a violent attacker.
I should point out that if you do take a marital arts class or a self defense course you will likely learn about situational awareness. I first learned the tactic in a Jujitsu class I attended years ago. If you are lucky enough to have a excellent instructor as I did you may also learn that you should only use the skills you master when absolutely necessary.
Suppose your situational awareness fails you and you find yourself facing an armed attacker who demands your wallet. You best approach may be to simply appraise him and try to determine just how dangerous he is. If all he wants is your wallet, just give it to him. You can always replace your money, your credit cards and your ID but you might find it far more difficult to recover from serious injuries and you definitely do not want to lose your life over a wallet. However if your attacker seems irrational or extremely angry and you suspect that he will try to put you in the hospital or six feet under even if you turn over your wallet -- then you should use the self defense skills you have mastered as you have little to lose.
Of course depending on where you live it is often legal to carry pepper spray or even a stun gun. Another excellent self defense weapon is a good strong cane.
While I have no problem with those who choose to get a carry permit, I do advise them to take the time to master their weapon and to always be aware of the tremendous responsibility that carrying a firearm in public involves. Just buying a handgun and getting a carry permit and then forgoing training and practice is like buying a book on Karate and after reading it thinking that you are a black belt.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)the importance of having a dog if you can keep one.
A trained dog is like having a security system, even one that just barks is a deterrent, most criminals will pick another home to break into, than deal with a dog.
Another set of eyes and ears and a super nose.
spin
(17,493 posts)For years I did keep an alarm dog in my home. Even after the last one died of old age, the "Bad Dog" sign on my gate seemed to keep people off my property.
I do need to consider getting another dog.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)No guns for you!!!!!!
How will poor little Georgie Porgie protect himself from ladies and children now?? Might have to leave people the fuck alone for a while.
Maybe he'll go back to doing that MMA fighting? Maybe he'll get up to a two this time.
Response to bravenak (Reply #2)
Cronus Protagonist This message was self-deleted by its author.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Hopefully he gets caught with them before he kills anybody else. He's a pitiful facsimile of a man. Some people are just made wrong.
Aristus
(66,327 posts)If he, you know, has any...
Boo-hoo-hoo, you murderous little shit...
Rex
(65,616 posts)That is a death sentence to a gun troll. What would Georgy Porgy do without his killing machines to protect him from the evil humans that walk freely among us?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)without a legal gun to comfort him, and bolster his courage. Too bad he got a gun in first place.
spin
(17,493 posts)At the trial there was some testimony that I found fascinating.
Zimmerman’s mixed-martial arts trainer testifies he was ‘physically soft’
By David Edwards
Monday, July 8, 2013 16:18 EST
A mixed-martial arts (MMA) trainer testified for the defense on Monday that George Zimmerman “didn’t know how to really effectively punch” even though he had trained the former neighborhood watchmen for over a year.
“He was just physically soft,” Adam Pollock told the court. “He was an overweight, large man when he came to us, and very pleasant — a very nice man, but physically soft. He was predominately fat, not a lot of muscle, not a lot of strength.”
Under cross-examination, Pollock admitted that Zimmerman could have lost as much as 80 pounds and had a body mass index as low as 16 percent at the time that he shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/08/zimmermans-mixed-martial-arts-trainer-testifies-he-was-physically-soft/
So Zimmerman did lose weight because he was training but he instructor obviously viewed him as a wuss. Perhaps Zimmerman does need a handgun "to comfort him and bolster his courage" as you suggest.
Unfortunately you have often suggested that this is true of all people who legally carry. Many of those I personally know who legally carry concealed on a regular basis are ex-police or military and a significant number have attended martial arts classes.
For example one of my co-workers was a high level black belt in Karate with at least 25 years experience in the sport. He still obtained a concealed weapons permit.
One cold Sunday morning in January he and another of my co-workers were using metal detectors to search a lot in downtown Tampa after the building that was on it was torn down. A guy in his twenties walked up to them, pulled a butcher knife and demanded they give him their wallets. My co-worker didn't disarm the mugger and karate chop and kick him. He merely pulled his jacket back to reveal that he was carrying a Colt .45 pistol in a shoulder holster. The mugger turned and walked off muttering to himself.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)to feel "like a man." That is really kind of sad.
I always felt that the macho martial arts instructor's testimony that Zman was a softy was manufactured to make Zman look like a poor pitiful victim of the "big scary black man"who was actually much lighter, a high school student, etc. But the bigoted jurors were easily frightened by the friggin, lying defense lawyers.
spin
(17,493 posts)carry firearms or wear a badge are doing so that make themselves feel manly.
To me being a "man" involves far more than an ability to fight or kill or a badge. It involves characteristics such as responsibility, honesty, generosity, maturity, a positive attitude, a willingness to accept blame for mistakes and the ability to care for his family and loved ones.
I don't think a real man spends a lot of time worrying about appearances and if others consider him to be a man. He knows that he is and doesn't spend time worrying about it. Some "real men" might enjoy a martial arts class or spending a day at the range shooting handguns while others might enjoy collecting stamps or building bird houses. I used to know a guy who enjoyed crocheting and was good at it. He took all the ribbing by others with a smile. I never considered him to be less than a man because of his unusual hobby.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)My point is simple, someone into guns, martial arts, etc., is either irrationally paranoid, or overly agressive, reason enough restrict their use/toting of firearms
spin
(17,493 posts)What you have just said is a lot like saying that chess players are not athletic and athletes are not smart enough to play chess.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Zimmerman's a good example. He was training 3 days a week to beat up people. When that wasn't working for him -- according to his story -- he pulled his gun and shot an unarmed teenager.
spin
(17,493 posts)One I remember told me that I must be a very violent person because I had just told him that I liked thunderstorms.
Despite my attempts I have been unable to find any link between liking thunderstorms and having a violent personality. Therefore I would suggest that this individual might have had an irrational fear of thunderstorms (astraphobia) and jumped to the conclusion that anyone that could enjoy such a violent manifestation of nature must be violent. However that is merely a guess as I lack the training to diagnose mental problems in others.
Once again you show little understanding of a sport. There are many good reason to attend a martial arts class. Of course your skills can be used for self defense but practicing a martial art is an excellent way to get in good shape and to lose weight. Attending such a class can increase a person's self confidence and better enable him to handle stressful situations in his life. I don't believe that any reputable martial arts instructor would train his students techniques and tell them to go out and bully and beat up people for kicks and grins.
Many people in the United States (perhaps as many as one in ten) have attended some form of martial arts training during their life. Only a small percentage have ever misused their training.
You have to learn that people and the things that they enjoy or find interesting differ greatly. If we were all the same, this would be a very boring world. It is also wise to realize that simply because a person is interested in something you dislike does not necessary make him a bad person.
That's why in my opinion playing an amateur psychiatrist or stereotyping people who differ from you is a poor idea. But of course if you enjoy doing these things, have fun. As I said people differ and if you actually took my advice, we would have nothing to debate.
sakabatou
(42,152 posts)
malaise
(268,967 posts)I have only seven words for that murderous scumbag
Remember what you did to Trayvon Martin - OK let me add two more - FUCK OFF!!!
redgreenandblue
(2,088 posts)I predicted dead or in jail within a year.
Or maybe it only counts if he stays in jail. In that case I'll renew my bet: Dead or serving a long sentence a year from today.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)within hours of leaving prison. And hopefully, he will get caught.
Tikki
(14,557 posts)time will tell.
But I honestly believe he will find a way to get a gun.
Tikki
durablend
(7,460 posts)"And if you're pulled over or something just show this card and everything will be OK (wink wink)"
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)Response to RBInMaine (Reply #38)
Cronus Protagonist This message was self-deleted by its author.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)
... some reeeeeeealy scary no-fear white dudes with tattoos and missing teeth. 
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)I haven't been to FReekshow in quite awhile. This thing with Z had me curious.
Many are turning on him. There are posts over there that almost sound like they came from us. Yes, yes...the majority is still blaming the women (because all women lie and stuff), but that majority is hanging by a thread. Words/phrases such as 'loose cannon', 'liar', 'anger issues', etc. are being pinned to him.
I'm scared. I didn't expect to come out of there feeling...confused...
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)most notably that assclown(s) posting under 20 different sock accounts even after the admins banned about 50 of them....
I'm pretty sure conservatives, racists and gunners give less than a shit about Zim's fate now, and their silence is deafening....But let's be honest: Zim's 'crusade' for them was accomplished the moment he was acquitted (because god forbid anyone fuck with their constitutional right to gun down minorities bold enough to walk in the wrong neighborhoods) so he has outlived his usefulness...
spin
(17,493 posts)There are serious aftereffects that commonly occur after a person shoots another person. It doesn't really matter if the shooting was entirely justified or not but obviously could be worse if the shooter realizes that he was in the wrong.
Often police officers who have used their weapons to shoot a person have to undergo counseling. Depression and sleep disorders are common aftereffects.
Unfortunately I doubt if Zimmerman has the resources to get the treatment he needs. He will simply have to live with the consequences of his actions as best he can. The problem is that I fear he is becoming a serious threat to those around him. He may decide to commit suicide and if he does, I hope he doesn't take anyone else with him.
Realize that I am in no way defending Zimmerman. I have always felt that he was in the wrong when he pursued Martin.
But Zimmerman should be used as a lesson on what can happen after a shooting in every concealed weapons class. I'm sure that if he could turn back time, he would simply stay in his truck and simply call the police dispatcher to report a suspicious individual.
The last thing that I hope I ever have to do is to shoot another person even if I am entirely in the right.
lastlib
(23,222 posts)It's on oxygen.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)"Now, can we call it quits?"
Gothmog
(145,168 posts)Zimmerman should not be allowed to have any guns
Baitball Blogger
(46,703 posts)
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)lawyer asked for a waiver on the cost of monitoring device because Z is "indigent". Wonder if NRA paid his bail.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,367 posts)Given that he stiffed the guy who kept him out of prison, why would any attorney in their right mind represent him?
Unless it's a Public Defender.
Blue_Roses
(12,894 posts)nt
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Zim's bail is $9,000, so if what few friends he has left hire a bail-bonds business, they'd have to cough up $900 or so. Likely within reach.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)so he can't just go to the nearest "Gun Show" and buy more guns.
but wait, ...
tofuandbeer
(1,314 posts)That call was something else in itself.
But just after the police arrived (and having kicked his girlfriend out of her own house), Zimmerman called 911.
He told the operator that his girlfriend was crazy.
911 asked if the police were there from his girlfriend's call, he replied "Yes."
911 asked why he didn't let them in, he replied that they were mad at him.
911 asked why he thought that, and he replied because they keep yelling and knocking on the doors and windows, and he won't let them in.
:O
It was crazy stuff! He's really messed up.
Skittles
(153,156 posts)HOW ON EARTH WILL THE POOR MAN SURVIVE?!!!
nyquil_man
(1,443 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)
Spirochete
(5,264 posts)He's a mad dog If he were to keep his guns, he will eventually cap someone the courts do actually give a shit about, and end up doing life in jail.
proReality
(1,628 posts)I like that he sweat. Hopefully he'll be sweating a lot from now on.
missingfink
(174 posts)The word over there is that Zimmy doesn't have a chance in this world because the press has been unrelenting towards him. It was stated that he killed (murdered) Trayvon Martin in self-defense since Martin was a trespassing (black) thug and had a weapon. For every one person who pointed out his continuing problems with the law, there were many who still believe in him as a decent, law-abiding, gun-carrying citizen. Also, there was much hostility towards the women in his life since they were trying to ruin him. I could only read so much.
Mr.Bill
(24,284 posts)if he had marijuana on him when he was arrested.
TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)
marble falls
(57,080 posts)
D23MIURG23
(2,849 posts)and loses the right to own guns permanently. The last thing we need is this asshole running around in public with anything more dangerous than a pea shooter.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)If he is convicted as a felon, he will lose any right to own guns forever.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Don't you know ... no one on DU ever defended this murdering scum ... they just defended the rights of 'Guns' and "stand your ground" and other ridiculous bullshit!
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Unrepentant Fenian
(1,078 posts)4 t 4
(2,407 posts)sorry jury you blew it!! and poor Travon is dead,still. His family has been done wrong. God help anyone out there that may have to go up against "a jury of their piers"
udbcrzy2
(891 posts)I am hoping that this will help with the wrongful death lawsuit and also with the divorce.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)That's a joke if I ever heard one
He'll find some way of getting another gun
I can imagine him doing it. And, at this point, I can also imagine him trying to circumvent his ankle monitor and trying to shoot either, or both...his girlfriend and soon to be ex-wife
After all, it would be their fault his life sucks right now, wouldn't it?
in case anyone thinks I'm serious...
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)