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cali

(114,904 posts)
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 07:21 PM Nov 2013

24,000-Year-Old Body Shows Kinship to Europeans and American Indians

The genome of a young boy buried at Mal’ta near Lake Baikal in eastern Siberia some 24,000 years ago has turned out to hold two surprises for anthropologists.

The first is that the boy’s DNA matches that of Western Europeans, showing that during the last Ice Age people from Europe had reached farther east across Eurasia than previously supposed. Though none of the Mal’ta boy’s skin or hair survives, his genes suggest he would have had brown hair, brown eyes and freckled skin.

The second surprise is that his DNA also matches a large proportion — about 25 percent — of the DNA of living Native Americans. The first people to arrive in the Americas have long been assumed to have descended from Siberian populations related to East Asians. It now seems that they may be a mixture between the Western Europeans who had reached Siberia and an East Asian population.

The Mal’ta boy was 3 to 4 years old and was buried under a stone slab wearing an ivory diadem, a bead necklace and a bird-shaped pendant. Elsewhere at the same site about 30 Venus figurines were found of the kind produced by the Upper Paleolithic cultures of Europe. The remains were excavated by Russian archaeologists over a 20-year period ending in 1958 and stored in museums in St. Petersburg.

<snip<

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/science/two-surprises-in-dna-of-boy-found-buried-in-siberia.html?ref=nicholaswade&_r=0

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24,000-Year-Old Body Shows Kinship to Europeans and American Indians (Original Post) cali Nov 2013 OP
Fascinating. Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #1
24,000 year old body? RebelOne Nov 2013 #7
Hmm, good point. Obviously God and Jesus planted that body as a test of our faith! Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #8
Say what you like, but sarcasm ought not invent: Jesus is not claimed anywhere but as a contemporary WinkyDink Nov 2013 #36
Well, in the mentality of some people I know on Facebook Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #38
In dog years backwards.... TeeYiYi Nov 2013 #12
Interesting article. Thanks for posting badtoworse Nov 2013 #2
It was believed that there was an Atlantean land bridge between the two. loudsue Nov 2013 #17
A land bridge across the Atlantic in the time of the pharoahs? badtoworse Nov 2013 #22
Continental masses have a much greater thickness than seabed bhikkhu Nov 2013 #40
4000 years ago, no, 24,000 years ago, maybe, 12,000 year ago maybe, 8000 maybe, 7000 no. happyslug Nov 2013 #48
This should be a very good read and I'm looking forward to it. badtoworse Nov 2013 #52
Interesting post and thanks you for sharing it. badtoworse Nov 2013 #55
Actually, that's entirely impossible to imagine NickB79 Nov 2013 #53
Probably. enlightenment Nov 2013 #41
Thanks, I'll have a look. As I said, this stuff is fascinating. badtoworse Nov 2013 #47
Interesting -- but neither of those points is a surprise starroute Nov 2013 #3
Is that figurine male or female?... TeeYiYi Nov 2013 #4
Definitely female starroute Nov 2013 #6
Wish I'd thought of that... TeeYiYi Nov 2013 #11
That was actually carved in later pscot Nov 2013 #15
I've looked at a lot of images of Paleolithic Venuses starroute Nov 2013 #19
Ok, seriously... TeeYiYi Nov 2013 #24
It's the vulval slit enlightenment Nov 2013 #42
Possibly,... TeeYiYi Nov 2013 #43
There's a theory that Lake Baikal drained into the Mediterranean starroute Nov 2013 #9
Wow. I love that stuff. IrishAyes Nov 2013 #5
Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #10
Why the snark? Can't stuff just be interesting once in a while? badtoworse Nov 2013 #13
sorry cali dissed me big time in a recent sincere text 4 t 4 Nov 2013 #20
Some folks are just bitter these days. loudsue Nov 2013 #32
I don't think that interest in the one denies concern for the other... LanternWaste Nov 2013 #14
I must be below average !! 4 t 4 Nov 2013 #21
Just wondering cali 4 t 4 Nov 2013 #16
You should really... TeeYiYi Nov 2013 #18
so should cali 4 t 4 Nov 2013 #23
In what way?... TeeYiYi Nov 2013 #26
I'm retired cali Nov 2013 #50
Fascinating! KoKo Nov 2013 #25
cali Posted in My Thread 4 t 4 Nov 2013 #28
Fascinating! I love stuff like this! scarletwoman Nov 2013 #27
On No 4 t 4 Nov 2013 #30
It's very nice of you to keep kicking this thread so that more people will see it. scarletwoman Nov 2013 #34
Have we found the missing link to Opie? Botany Nov 2013 #29
I guess so 4 t 4 Nov 2013 #31
You need a time out until you learn to play nice Botany Nov 2013 #33
Amen to that. loudsue Nov 2013 #35
If you bothered to read the article, Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #46
Great article. bravenak Nov 2013 #37
National Geographic Genographic Project might answer this. ErikJ Nov 2013 #39
Cool! JimboBillyBubbaBob Nov 2013 #44
Love the thread, please don't stop posting interesting articles like this. TinkerTot55 Nov 2013 #45
the next closest relatives are Finns and Chinese MisterP Nov 2013 #49
Interesting. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #51
Nice fine, cali. Interesting how humans have always felt the urge to 'immigrate'. pampango Nov 2013 #54
Cool! JNelson6563 Nov 2013 #56
 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
36. Say what you like, but sarcasm ought not invent: Jesus is not claimed anywhere but as a contemporary
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 09:20 PM
Nov 2013

of Pontius Pilate. NOT "24,000 years" ago.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
38. Well, in the mentality of some people I know on Facebook
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 09:32 PM
Nov 2013

Jesus has magical powers on par with what they call "God." For example, one recently thanked Jesus for her 20-year marriage. Jesus is in charge of matchmaking? (Johnny Carson voice): "I did not know that."

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
2. Interesting article. Thanks for posting
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 07:54 PM
Nov 2013

I find this sort of thing fascinating.

I remember a program on the Discovery Channel (or some similar channel) about analyses of Egyptian mummies containing traces of cocaine. Figure that one out - cocaine was only found in the New World at the time those mummies were embalmed. Was there travel between the Old World and the New World thousands of years before Columbus?

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
17. It was believed that there was an Atlantean land bridge between the two.
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:48 PM
Nov 2013

Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, by Ignatius Donnelly (1882) , edited by Egerton Sykes, is a little ( ? ) far out there, but it does express the lore of a much earlier time ( Plato was really into Atlantis) .

It really isn't that hard to imagine with continental drift and a meteor/astroid hitting the earth to cause flooding/tsunamis/a big mess.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
22. A land bridge across the Atlantic in the time of the pharoahs?
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:52 PM
Nov 2013

Seems pretty unlikely that evidence of its existence would have disappeared. Continental drift occurred over a period of millions of years - well before the pharoahs.

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
40. Continental masses have a much greater thickness than seabed
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 09:55 PM
Nov 2013

and we know the thickness of most of the Atlantic ocean seabed. There wasn't ever any continent there, at least not in any time period useful to the Atlantis argument.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
48. 4000 years ago, no, 24,000 years ago, maybe, 12,000 year ago maybe, 8000 maybe, 7000 no.
Thu Nov 21, 2013, 01:14 AM
Nov 2013

Remember. 24,000 year ago was the height of the last Glacial maximum (About 20,000 to 26, 500 years ago)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum

The Grand Banks were land and connected to North America. Iceland was twice as big as it is today. Not only was England attached to Europe, so was Ireland and the water in between PLUS additional ocean land to Ireland's West and Scotland's north and west. At least two large Islands existed between Scotland and Iceland.



http://www.iceagenow.com/Sea_Level_During_Last_Ice_Age.htm

That the permanent ice of the Arctic lasted till about 8000 years ago is roughly the same area as the last ice age Maximum, and that includes most of England, Ireland, Scotland, Iceland and North America north of Delaware.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004AGUFMPP12A..01A

http://curryja.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/document.pdf


Here is a cite supporting the concept of movement from Europe to North America:
http://www.naturaleater.com/science-articles/north_atlantic_ice-edge_corridor.pdf

Here is a cite attacking the concept of movement from Europe to North America:
http://cladistics.coas.missouri.edu/pdf_articles/Eren_et_al_2013.pdf


Now, the Map of the World 24,000 years ago is from a Mormon Site. While facts can not be disputed (and the map reflects common concepts of sea level 24,000 years ago), how to interpret those facts can be. According to the Book Of Mormon, a white people lived in North America till exterminated by Native Americans, but they left a book, called the Book Of Mormon that Joseph Smith found and translated into English. For this reason many Mormon's looks for facts that can support such a history and will often jump to conclusions based on very flimsy evidence.

Native Americans know of this tendency of the Mormons and are often just as quick to attack any indication of immigration from Europe prior to the Vikings (and under the right set of facts, Native Americas will even support the even earlier Irish reports of reaching what we think is North America).

This clash of beliefs raises its head in regards to the report of Clovis points and how they came to North America. While the first Clovis points were found in Clovis New Mexico, the majority of such points are from the East Coast and seems to have moved from the East Coats to Clovis New Mexico not the other way around (I use the word "seems" for the data is weak for Clovis points are dated from the material they are found in, not from anything on the point itself).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_point

Thus it is possible for a group of Western Europeans to walk from Western Europe to North America up to about 8000 years ago. It was a dangerous walk for you would be walking on ice that is floating on water (and it would be slowly melting). As such the ice can break up as you walk on it, or smash up and cover you up as you walk on it (and some times both at the same time). Please note the above is in GOOD WEATHER, in bad weather it would be worse. On the other hand it is doable.

Now, some of the land off North America would have become flooded by 8000 years ago, the Grand Banks would still have been above ground, with the ice sheets reaching them in winter.

The only real issue would be food, and that can be taken based on fish they can find in the open sea and land creature under the ice surface (and that have to come up to breath is breathing holes such large mammals need). I do not see a small, nuclear family size, group, but an extended family, including first and second cousins doing this trip. Such a clan is small enough to be able to live off the game it can catch, and large enough to handle the large sea mammals they would be hunting. I do not seem them using boats except for short off shore movements (no where near what the Inuit, Eskimos, can do today) for we are talking old Stone age not New Stone age groups. I do see them using needles and sewing, but no weaving.

The first New Stone age groups appear about 10,200 years ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic

While I suspect the European Groups to be Old Age people, I suspect the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

While the Ancestors of Native Americans had the upper hands in numbers, the Clovis point could have become something to trade for (and one of the top trade items would be women, and that would be a two way street). Given what I suspect is a large population difference, the European groups would be slowly absorbed by the Native American groups.

Please note, it is generally believed that the First Native Americas were already New Stone Age people (Neolithic). Presently Neolithic Cultures are divided into three sub types in the old world, five in the New World. The New Word Division is as follows:

The Lithic stage
The Archaic stage
The Formative stage
The Classic stage
The Post-Classic stage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithic_stage

The key is at the time Neolithic starts about 12,200 years ago. That is also the time period when the Ancestors of Modern Native Americans cross into the New World (Sea levels raise after wards, making the Bering Land Bridge the Bering straits). It appears that such early Native Americas were primitive but still Neolithic people. No permanent homes, no farming, but larger groups are becoming the norm and with that larger group better equipment and dress (Better dress including sewing and weaving important is being able to dress for the cold temperatures of that part of the world).

Sewing Needles and Weaving had been known in late Paleolithic times (old stone age) but boomed with the onset of the Neolithic age. The Bow and Arrow seems to have been invented about the time of the switch to the Neolithic age (mostly do to the fact the Bow and Arrow are sophisticated tools that require special skills to make, unlike the earlier Atlatl, or spear thrower, which anyone could in theory make) but does NOT appear to have reached North America till about 2000 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_archery#North_America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaving
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewing#Origins

In many ways sewing and weaving seems to be the big switch between Neolithic and Paleolithic ages. The record is unclear for this was done by people on the move, we just see it is the improved clothes most Neolithic people wear when compared to Paleolithic sites.

The Atlatl or Spear Thrower was invented about 25,000 years ago and is clearly an Paleolithic invention (and with Paleolithic people reached Australia) but as slowly replaced by the Bow.

Compared to the Bow, the Atlatl could throw a more powerful spear at a target and when it hit what it was aimed at do more damage. Another advantage of the Atlati is that compared to the bow it is primitive. Once you understand how it work you can make a very good one yourself and learn to use it. A good bow and good arrows are much harder to make. Yew was the preferred wood in the old world. In the New World, Osage quickly became the preferred wood (In Central Asia which did not have access to either tree, the composited bow was preferred, a bow made up of various items from wood to bone).

The actual construction of a Bow can be done in a day (for a composite bow a week) BUT that assumes you have all the components already made, and making those components can take months. In the days of stone tools, "cutting" a bow out of a tree could take weeks and then months making sure the bow properly dried. The bow String had to be made out of Sinew (which are the tendons which connect muscle to bone) for nothing else was as strong (other materials were used, but all would break way before Sinew would). The Tendons had to be cut away, then dried and wrapped with other dried Tendon to make a long enough Bow String. This took time and you had to make sure every scavengers around (including crows) would leave the Sinew alone till it was dry (and then afterward when it was in storage). A Archer would carry 2-3 bow string in case one broke (today, artificial materials are used, but that is a post WWII invention, not relevant to the issue here).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinew.

The arrows themselves were a problem, until Aluminum became the material of choice for archers, the choice was Bamboo or Cedar. Since Bamboo only exists in Eastern Asia (including China) and South east Asia (India to Vietnam), everyone else used Cedar. if you could fine it AND if you could get enough pieces made that were straight. Another problem are the feathers of the Arrow, Today we used Plastic, prior to the invention of Plastic actual bird feather, but NOT any bird feather, the feathers on the wing, and generally only one or two on each wing (and all three feathers on an arrow has to be about the same size AND from the same wing of the bird).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow
http://www.trueflightfeathers.com/faq.htm

Just pointing out that prior to plastics and modern materials, Bows AND arrows were expensive to produce and it appears to be the chief reason it took centuries for people to give up Throwing Spears for the Bow.

Now while more time consuming to produce, the Bow had the advantage of more accuracy (thus more effective on smaller game), longer range (could hit an area target up to about 250 yards, a head size target up to 100 yards, unlike the Atlati's 80 yard range and that is against an Area Target) and be reloaded quicker. Thus the bow slowly replaced the Atlati except among those people going after big game (the Inuit for example).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longbow

What I mean by "Area Target" is a target larger then one object. The Classic example is a group of soldiers opposite your group of soldiers. You do not aim at any one person in that group, but at the group as a whole. A good example of such "area target" is seen in the 1903 Springfield Rifle. The 1903 Springfield Rifle had sights up to 3000 yards. With those open sights a person could hit a man size target up to 1000 yards away. The sights were up to 3000 yards, for in 1903 it was believed that infantrymen may have to open fire on area targets up to that range.

Back to the movement of early Native Americans into the New World. I brought up the Atlati and the Bow to show that the Bow to be made had to have a more advance society then the Atlati. THe bow is the product of the Neolithic age, but it is NOT what separates the Neolithic from the Paleolithic. The bow needs a sophisticated society working together to get the parts needed for the bow to be made and such sophisticated society is what separates the Neolithic from the Paleolithic.

This difference is important for it appears the early Native Americans were already early Neolithic when they entered North America. It appears that the people of Europe in 10,000 to 12,000 years ago, where still Old Stone Age (Paleolithic). Thus if any of these early Europeans traveled over the ice and ended up in North America they may have had a better spear point then the people coming from Asia, but everything else about them were much more primitive. That meant smaller over all population and over all less technology and thus goods to trade.

Thus it appears that IF people came from Europe to North America, they were the people with inferior technology to the Ancestor's of today's Native American, except for the Clovis Point (if the Clovis point is from Europe not Asia). The larger population from Asia would have easily taken in the small number of people from Europe so that the genes would be minor part of the subsequent gene pool. On the other hand the Clovis point was such an advancement in spear point technology that it would have spread like wild fire among the early Native Americans.

Now, back to the Mormons and modern Native American dispute. The Radicals among the Mormon's do not like what this evidence shows, and try to convert it to barbarian Native Americans replacing advance Whites, while Radicals among the Native Americans dislike the idea that they ancestors came from anywhere by Asia (More to reject the Mormon's claim that the Native American stool North America from White and thus the subsequent white conquest from the Native American was justice of a rightful owner getting his land back. Please note this is NOT my position but I have to mention what the dispute is to show why it is being disputed.

Thus some of this discovery is affected by the above dispute between the Mormons and Native Americans for it shows that people were NOT as divided 24,000 years ago as we some times try to make them out to be. It also can show that the Clovis Point, if decedent from European Design, but have come WITH the Native Americans to North America.

I still lean to this being a Native American improvement over an earlier European design that was introduced by people walking from Europe on the edge of the Atlantic ice Sheet. After 8000 that ice sheet retreated to far north to be used by anyone without advance Neolithic technology (i,e, the Inuit) but primitive people could have functioned quite well on the melting ice cap and its longer periods of daylight when it reached to New England AND England. Once the Ice Cap retreated in 8000 BC, such trips were no longer possible. The distance between land masses were to far to walk during a summer (And I do not see people walking on that ice in the Winter). Thus I see groups no larger then 50 (and most such groups no larger then about a dozen people) moving at any one time. When they reached North America they stayed for it was much better then on the Ice Sheet, but they were much more primitive then the onrushing ancestors of today's Native America and thus were wither wiped out or absorbed.

Just a comment that movement across the Atlantic may have been done but by very small groups.

Side note: Now if you understand the Gulf Stream and the ocean Currents, while you can cut out most European movement to North America prior to the Irish movement in the Dark Ages, you can NOT say the same about North America's Native Americans. I always give the sailing time during the American Revolution, Six weeks from Europe to North America, one week or less from North America to Europe. The reason? The winds and currents flow West to East, thus it is a quick trip to Europe from North America, it is a LONG trip to go from Europe to North America in the days of sails. In fact it was faster to go from England to Africa to North America, the to go straight across the Atlantic to North America. The reason? the Currents and winds for that is how the Currents and Winds go. Thus it is a very long trip from Europe to North America and until the Irish and the later Vikings just not worth it.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
52. This should be a very good read and I'm looking forward to it.
Thu Nov 21, 2013, 07:02 AM
Nov 2013

I'm getting dressed for work now and I'll read it later. Thanks for taking the time.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
55. Interesting post and thanks you for sharing it.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 01:45 PM
Nov 2013

I've always known about the land bridge from Asia to North America across the Bering Strait being the route taken by the North American Indian ancestors, but I never considered a similar bridge across the Atlantic. Considering a seal level almost 400 feet lower than today makes a big difference. I do a bit of fishing off New England and New Jersey and it's a bit weird thinking of those spots as being dry land 8,000 years ago.

The insights into technology were also very interesting. I never considered what it would take to make a decent bow with the tools and materials available in the Neolithic era. Multiple people working for weeks to gather the stone and fashion points, kill birds and save feathers, dry sinew and make bowstrings, cut the actual bow and fashion straight shafts for the arrows. I wounder what they might have done with a modern compound leverage bow and a quiver full of broadheads. I read an article a number of years ago in Scientific American about the composite bows used by the Mongols. They were actually pretty high tech and were made with variopus woods and bone. Their characteristic double curve gave them great leverage with a short bow that could be shot on horseback.

All in all, a good read. Thanks for posting

P.S. I have to apologize for the late response. I got involved in a bunch of things at home and at work and haven't had time to get on DU since last week.

Have a nice Thanksgiving

NickB79

(19,236 posts)
53. Actually, that's entirely impossible to imagine
Thu Nov 21, 2013, 08:07 AM
Nov 2013

Unless you disregard everything that is known about planetary geology, paleontology and archaeology.

For example, a meteorite impact strong enough to move continents would wipe out all life on the planet bigger than a microbe. The one that killed the dinosaurs "only" left a crater 100 miles wide in the Gulf of Mexico.

And if you disregard all the science, you're on the same playing field as the creationists who say the world is 6000 years old and the Grand Canyon was carved by the Great Flood.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
41. Probably.
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 10:01 PM
Nov 2013

There are three major migration models - the one everybody knows, across Berengia from Asia (the Land Bridge Model); the Coastal Migration Model, which has three hypotheses (Pacific, Northwestern, Atlantic); and the "Topper" Model, which is still heavily debated (and dismissed by many).

The Atlantic hypotheses is based primarily on flint-napping technologies and compares points found in N. America with those made by the Solutrean culture of Europe.

I'm sure one of DU's resident archeologists could tell you more, or you could watch this (with Alan Alda) - it's pretty good!

Scientific American Frontiers - "Coming Into America"
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1406/

starroute

(12,977 posts)
3. Interesting -- but neither of those points is a surprise
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:01 PM
Nov 2013

Mal'ta is well known as the easternmost extension of the cultural tradition which produced the "Venuses" of Ice Age Europe -- so it seems odd for the article to say that "people from Europe had reached farther east across Eurasia than previously supposed."

And on the second point, the DNA of the first wave of Native American migrants is dominated in the male lineage by the Q haplotype of the Y-chromosome, which is closely related to European haplotypes and is also still found in Central Asia, and in the female lineage by several mitochondrial types that are more closely associated with East Asia.

It's impressive that both connections show up so clearly in this one child, but neither is surprising.



TeeYiYi

(8,028 posts)
4. Is that figurine male or female?...
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:07 PM
Nov 2013

... I would have guessed female except for the illusion of an erect penis carved in.

TYY

TeeYiYi

(8,028 posts)
11. Wish I'd thought of that...
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:26 PM
Nov 2013

I seriously tried to figure it out and couldn't. I don't usually imagine phallic imagery where it shouldn't belong.

It makes sense that anything phallic would not have been scratched in with a rusty nail, but rather carved to stand out in all its perceived glory.

Thanks for the response.

TYY

pscot

(21,024 posts)
15. That was actually carved in later
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:43 PM
Nov 2013

by some Neolithic Groucho; like painting a stache on the Venus de Milo.

starroute

(12,977 posts)
19. I've looked at a lot of images of Paleolithic Venuses
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:50 PM
Nov 2013

They can be a little shocking at first, but you get used to the artistic conventions after a while. See both #2 and to a lesser extent #4 (the well-known Venus of Willendorf) below. The Mal'ta figure is not as voluptuous, but it clearly employs the same symbolic vocabulary of fertility and birth.




TeeYiYi

(8,028 posts)
24. Ok, seriously...
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:57 PM
Nov 2013

...I thought the scratch marks indicating breasts were skinny stick figure arms. (Hands clasped.)



TYY

starroute

(12,977 posts)
9. There's a theory that Lake Baikal drained into the Mediterranean
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:23 PM
Nov 2013

I never heard of this before -- but it seems plausible. The Siberian glaciers damned the rivers that now flow into the Arctic Ocean, creating huge glacial lakes that could only drain to the west. The resulting network of lakes and rivers flowing across open tundra would have been very conducive to the spread of Ice Age mammoth hunters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Siberian_Glacial_Lake

It is theorized that while drainage to the Arctic Ocean basin (e.g. by the Ob and Yenisei Rivers) was prevented, the lake would eventually overflow to the Mediterranean Sea through a circuitous route that would include the Aral Sea, the Caspian Sea, and the Black Sea. This would have resulted in water from the Selenga River and Lake Baikal draining over a course of some 6,000 miles (9600 km), considerably longer than any river's course today.



Lake Baikal is the comma-shaped blob just above the red outline of present-day Mongolia.

Response to cali (Original post)

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
32. Some folks are just bitter these days.
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 09:13 PM
Nov 2013

They have to share their poison, it seems, because it's too much for one person to hold.

I think the OP was WAY interesting!

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
14. I don't think that interest in the one denies concern for the other...
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:39 PM
Nov 2013

I don't think that interest in the one denies concern for the other... at least for average to above-average minds.

It's obvious, too?

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
50. I'm retired
Thu Nov 21, 2013, 06:07 AM
Nov 2013

and disabled.

For most of my working life, I was in social services.

I have a condition called CRPS as a result of a bad accident two years ago.

Complex regional pain syndrome (CRPS), formerly reflex sympathetic dystrophy (RSD) or "causalgia", reflex neurovascular dystrophy (RND), or amplified musculoskeletal pain syndrome (AMPS), is a chronic systemic disease characterized by severe pain, swelling, and changes in the skin. CRPS is expected to worsen over time.[1] It often initially affects an arm or a leg and often spreads throughout the body; 92% of patients state that they have experienced a spread, and 35% of patients report symptoms in their whole body.

<snip>

Happy now?

scarletwoman

(31,893 posts)
34. It's very nice of you to keep kicking this thread so that more people will see it.
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 09:18 PM
Nov 2013

Because there are quite a few DUers who enjoy reading about scientific discoveries into the ancient history of the human race.

Botany

(70,501 posts)
29. Have we found the missing link to Opie?
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 09:09 PM
Nov 2013


"his genes suggest he would have had brown hair, brown eyes and freckled skin" outside of red hair
and blue eyes it is a perfect match.

Ms. Toad

(34,069 posts)
46. If you bothered to read the article,
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 10:45 PM
Nov 2013

You would know the post you are responding to has nothing to do with you. It had to do with the physical description of the child found.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
37. Great article.
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 09:25 PM
Nov 2013

I find the migration patterns of the early humans fascinating. I always wondered about Alaska natives since some of them look more Asian than I thought they would. I met a girl from Kazakstan and I thought she was Alaska native since their traditional garb is similar.

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
39. National Geographic Genographic Project might answer this.
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 09:39 PM
Nov 2013

Excellent interactive map showing DNA marker trails around the world. You can send a DNA sample to them to find out what races you have in your blood. In fact it might even have Neandertal genes.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/

TinkerTot55

(198 posts)
45. Love the thread, please don't stop posting interesting articles like this.
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 10:26 PM
Nov 2013

Enough stuff is out there, dividing us all....nice to see the things that unite us and remind us of our shared history and shared humanity.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
49. the next closest relatives are Finns and Chinese
Thu Nov 21, 2013, 02:57 AM
Nov 2013

male haplogroup Q for most all Autochthons, R for Europeans, I for the Norse (related to the Mideasterners)

the female patterns are even wilder!

pampango

(24,692 posts)
54. Nice fine, cali. Interesting how humans have always felt the urge to 'immigrate'.
Thu Nov 21, 2013, 09:44 AM
Nov 2013
The first people to arrive in the Americas have long been assumed to have descended from Siberian populations related to East Asians. It now seems that they may be a mixture between the Western Europeans who had reached Siberia and an East Asian population.

Dr. Willerslev’s interpretation was that the ancestors of Native Americans had already separated from the East Asian population when they interbred with the people of the Mal’ta culture, and that this admixed population then crossed over the Beringian land bridge that then lay between Siberia and Alaska to become a founding population of Native Americans.
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