What Wendy Davis gets wrong

[el_bryanto]

This is the title of an article at Salon, which echoes some of the things being stated around here.

And Davis — who is right about so much else — is wrong about the objectives of the reproductive rights movement. There simply is no such thing as a world without abortion, nor should we claim to wish for one. Women will always need abortion care. What they don’t need is more stigma.

Worth reading.

Bryant

[msanthrope]

1. She didn't get it 'wrong.' She's trying to get elected. In Texas. It's our

job to erase 'stigma' culturally and socially. Her job is to hoover up as many purple votes as she can eke out to get herself in the governor's chair.

Sounds cynical? You bet. Welcome to politics.

[el_bryanto]

2. I think the answer would be that if we don't expect our leaders to really stand up for what we

believe than what good are they?

There are two possibilities - either she really believes what she said or she doesn't really believe it but has to say it for tactical reasons. Those who think she said the wrong thing, probably think that it is bad tactics to concede that Abortion is a horrible thing that shouldn't happen. She might gain a few yards with that strategy, but we as a whole lose more than a few yards when we make that concession.

Of course it's also possible that what she said was actually how she feels.

Bryant

[msanthrope]

5. Wendy Davis is going to stand up for reproductive rights. I want her to

do it from the governor's chair. I'll pass on a purity test.

[renie408]

13. Thanks

[bettyellen]

41. I agree, but am saddened that this is what she has to do to get there.

[okaawhatever]

48. I don't agree that Wendy Davis' position is that Abortion is a horrible thing that shouldn't

happen. Also, the bill she filibustered was an omnibus bill that contained many provisions that weren't about abortion directly.
The "horrible thing" argument is disingenuous anyway, because most women don't want other women to be faced with an unwanted or life-threatening pregnancy. We don't want it to happen. We wish that women wouldn't ever have to face the decision. That being said, we also don't believe that day where birth control is 100% effective and fatal birth defects can be determined prior to conception will come in our lifetime.

[maddezmom]

9. Well said

She will get my vote, my money and time.

[Gothmog]

55. Judge this in contest of the Texas GOP types-try searching on Twitter the term #abortionbarbie

Senator Davis is fighting a very uphill battle. The Texas GOP is nuts on this issue and Senator Davis has to win the vote of some single white females to have a chance. The GOP is pandering to the far right and if you want to get disgusted search on twitter the term #abortionbarbie

Senator Davis is pro choice but she has to make sure that win the vote of a good number of single white female voters and her position is designed to do this.

[blogslut]

3. Well, golly gee.

I guess I shouldn't vote for her then.

[renie408]

4. Bingo.

Because who wants somebody who is pro-choice if they are not pro-choice for the right reasons?? And when will Democrats learn that we must march in lockstep and all think the same things in PRECISELY the same ways?? What good is it that we agree on policy if some people are agreeing for different reasons??

[el_bryanto]

6. While I have some sympathy for your position

The other side of it is that how we talk about it could be an issue as well, particularly right now as these rights are being curtailed.

The argument is that if we present the idea that Abortion is a regrettable bad thing but should be legal, because the alternative is worse, well that shares in the same mindset, to a lesser extent, that Abortion is a regrettable bad thing and should be illegal.

Bryant

[renie408]

7. Having already proven that this is NOT a good subject for me...

I am not sure how much I really want to get into this.

I think this is a subject about which each person must make up their own mind. I do not need the Democratic party or anybody else telling me how I should feel about this or how I should talk about it. And telling me that I must be a bad Democrat/woman hater/secret pro-lifer/what-the-fuck-ever because I do not choose to celebrate abortion as a positive choice for those who must make it tends to make me say things that get my posts hidden.

But you may feel free to keep on...and on and on and on....trying to convince everyone to think about it the same way you do.

[el_bryanto]

8. What if you frame it as a question of tactics vs a question of morality/orthodoxy?

Does that make a difference to you? I mean if you were convinced it was bad tactics to continue using, say, the "Safe Legal and Rare" language, would you want to change your tactics, even if your underlying reasons didn't change?

Bryant

[renie408]

12. Personally, I am not sure your tactics are that great.

I live in the Deep South. The best traction I have ever gotten in a discussion on abortion with some pretty damn fundie folks was with language similar to Wendy Davis'. The fact that it was pretty much how I felt might have helped, but where I am, the pro-lifers I talk to would be shocked and offended to hear anyone say that abortion is a positive choice for families. Now, tell them that it can sometimes be a necessary evil and they seem much more open to the idea. In fact, I rarely get much argument with that one. When they say women should have the baby at all costs, I start talking about poor women forced to have children that they cannot afford and if that is what they want, then they are going to have to expand SNAP, WIC, Head Start, etc. Then you follow up with, "Noone is pro-abortion. But I am anti-women being forced to have children they are not equipped to care for either emotionally or financially." They bring up adoption, you counter with the number of abortions performed each year and how if even HALF of those babies were put up for adoption that there would be a ton of unwanted kids stuck in foster care. And again, follow up with the necessary evil (which works for me, cause it is what I feel) thing.

I can actually get most pro-lifers at least thinking this way. They may not come to my side, but they slow down. I am telling you, trying to sell abortion as something that is no biggie does not help the cause as much as you might think. And you know why? Because for many people, it IS a biggie.

BTW...my feelings have nothing to do with morality or orthodoxy. I do not think abortion is immoral and I have no religion, nor anything else about which to be orthodox. My feelings stem directly from regretting the potential life-that-isn't. But when weighed against the facts on the ground of my reality at the time, an abortion was the only logical choice I could make. I don't think that makes me a bad person or immoral. It makes me a person caught in a difficult situation with a choice to make. I am glad I had that choice and that is what I would hope to preserve for all women.

[el_bryanto]

22. In the short term you might be right; but in the long term, the argument is that it

panders to the feeling that there is something wrong with getting an Abortion. And if there's something wrong with doing it, we should take steps to keep it from being done.

Bryant

[renie408]

31. We SHOULD take steps. Logical ones...

like sex education and access to birth control.

Buddy, you can keep selling this as hard as you want (obviously, you do not need my permission for THAT), but you are going to have a hard time getting everybody on board for this one. I really, REALLY think we should cut our losses with trying to keep the vast majority of Americans believing that abortion should be an available option and let them do that for whatever reason works for them.

If it makes you feel better, living where I live I STILL know very few people who are seriously anti-abortion. Most people I talk to are comfortable identifying as pro-life AND pro-choice. Naturally, this is anecdotal evidence, but most I talk to say that it should be left up to the woman.

[kcr]

32. The problem is, Texas needs Wendy Davis

What good does it do in the long run if there's no Wendy Davis in Texas? She ignores short term needs and doesn't get elected. The Right's agenda pushes on. How does that help long term?

[bettyellen]

20. I think it is a mistake to "talk tactics" to someone who does not whole heartedly support choice...

by talking (without reservations) and walking the walk. Many of us Dems have, and some give it lip service tinged with all sorts of qualifications and judgments.

Some people are too invested in this guilt/ shame narrative. Can't get it out of their own heads long enough to think clearly or even accept that not everyone should share those feelings. I don't want their tactics when it inevitably involves spreading shame.

[el_bryanto]

26. So if someone supports Pro-Choice Positions with their votes and dollars

but is uncomfortable with the practice of abortion, and wants to see it become more rare on those grounds - they should keep quiet?

Bryant

[bettyellen]

30. I'll be honest and say I truly doubt the support is there. If someone displays such sadness

and anger just thinking about the issue, appears to hate feminists activists here for their lack of guilt or shame... I don't think they have been cutting checks, or would ever make the issue a deal breaker.

If their take on things is for people to shut up, why in the world would I listen to anything?

[el_bryanto]

34. I can only speak for myself

My post on my feelings about Abortion went around last week. But I have voted against abortion restrictions in my home state and donated to planned parenthood as well.

Bryant

[bettyellen]

42. I have seen you post flamebait in an attempt to induce guilt feelings,

and I imagine you understand it may or may not be a really difficult desicion for the woman, and there are some cases where if feels necessary and and easy choice. Some people here lack those nuances.
I just ask we stop insulting the many women carrying offspring from abusive men, or with medical problems by insinuating that their choice is unfortunate. It is their circumstances that are unfortunate, not their choice.
What is most unfortunate, is many women do no have that choice at all due to limitations and restrictions.
Taking that into account is why we would like to (and have, from the Dem platform) drop the word rare.

If the issue matters to you, what you should be fighting for is full and more readily available reproductive health services, from health, contraception and abortion. Too many women's lives are at risk with the current and proposed restrictions for us to express our support half heartedly, or with qualifiers that hint at shame or regret.

[el_bryanto]

43. I don't agree with your interpretation here.

And I'm not particularly bothered if you think an expression of my opinion is flamebait. If I did, I would keep my mouth shut as many people have urged me to do. The argument on your side is not that you are right and I am wrong, but that you are so right that people like me should just keep our mouths shut and not say anything. I understand that's how you feel, but I don't think that's reasonable.


Bryant

[bettyellen]

49. So sorry, I omitted the word not, My post should have made no sense.

And you proved me right by keeping a cool head anyway. Well done!

I don't think you should shut up, I just think *when advocating for better access for care* that is exactly what you should do. It is not wise to muddy the waters with the word rare, (it has no place in advocacy- surely you can see that?)when you want to improve services for women. It is shooting yourself (and all women in the US) in the foot.

The only people I'd love to see shut up, are those who suggest every woman should feel guilty, or every decision to have an abortion is regrettable.

[PowerToThePeople]

10. Abortion is a regrettable bad thing

Last edited Thu Nov 21, 2013, 01:44 PM - Edit history (1)

The argument is that if we present the idea that Abortion is a regrettable bad thing but should be legal, because the alternative is worse, well that shares in the same mindset, to a lesser extent, that Abortion is a regrettable bad thing and should be illegal.

I propose that abortion is a regrettable bad thing that should not occur (in the case of an unwanted pregnancy). I also propose that it is a failure of our society to provide the means, education, and moral upbringing which leads to the vast numbers of unwanted pregnancies in the first place. If we were doing things right, the numbers would be drastically lower. Obviously the numbers will never go to zero because birth control is not 100% effective today. But we do not even come close to as low of numbers as we should. It is no one individual's fault. It is society's fault.

Edit - clarification of when I feel abortion falls into a set which has the regrettable characteristic.

[bettyellen]

15. Speak for yourself with this regretful and bad bullshit. There are many cases when it is not....

And more than that, it is not your business to decide when it would be regretful, unless it is your own body.

[PowerToThePeople]

17. I speak as

I speak as a man, a father, and a person who has fully supported his partner through the process of having an abortion. I am well versed, thank you.

edit- It is regrettable that the abortion need occur because it is regrettable that an unwanted pregnancy happened in the first place.

[PeaceNikki]

18. You're well-versed in your specific circumstance, not abortion as a whole.

[PeaceNikki]

21. So - regrettable that an unwanted pregnancy occurred,

good that a safe abortion was accessible.

[PowerToThePeople]

23. Correct.

Much work needs to be done to eradicate unwanted pregnancy.

[PeaceNikki]

36. Agreed. In the meantime, abortion needs to be available for all who need it.

Accessible, safe, affordable as needed.

[bettyellen]

24. It is NOT regrettable for many, and this has nothing to do with your family. Why would you

assume it would? That is, frankly, bizarre.

[PowerToThePeople]

25. There are many actions that are not regrettable to many. n/t

[bettyellen]

27. So you should qualify your statements to reflect that. Until we have eliminated

unsafe pregnancies, rape, spousal abuse, birth defects- and a host of other issues- abortion will be a needed thing, and not always regretted. And that is a million times more significant than one person (a person who HAD choice) with regrets or mixed feelings about it.

[PowerToThePeople]

29. Reread my first post

I believe what you are looking for is there. It is not bullet pointed out, but it is still there.

[bettyellen]

33. "Abortion is a regrettable bad thing" is a regrettable statement.

[PowerToThePeople]

39. That is correct.

I took a shower, thought through the logic of my statement a bit. I was going with the logic of abortion being a subset of unwanted pregnancy, which I feel is regrettable (unwanted pregnancy). That is not always the case. There are cases where it falls outside of the unwanted pregnancy set, ie life threatening birth defects, mother's health, etc. I may need to revisit that post again. Thank you.

edit - Please forgive my ignorance. This is the first time I have actually dared to tread the waters of this subject. I normally excuse myself from these discussions.

[bettyellen]

40. wow, thank you for taking the time to think on it. i get that people look at it through a personal

lens, and very much appreciate you listening with an open mind.

Just an FYI, the "late term" controversy is painted as some horrible "partial birth" vicious procedure women too lazy to get an abortion promptly enough do. This is not true, it is almost always because there are serious complications- usually the life of the Mom or fetus is on the line. RWers would let her die, or force her to take the dead baby to term. They fight for legislation to stop her from a life saving procedure. I wish this was not where we are at after all these years, but it is.

Good chatting with you- back to work now!

[DURHAM D]

11. Stupid article.

I hate this kind of politically correct drivel from someone who doesn't live in (and does not care about) the real world of smash-mouth elective politics.

The writer can take her crap to the nearest women's studies class at the local college and have fun judging feminists for word purity until the cows come home.

[renie408]

14. + 1000

[el_bryanto]

16. I thought it was pretty good myself - it's useful to get all kinds of points of view

Even in smash mouth politics.

Bryant

[bettyellen]

28. discussing women's reproductive right is "politically correct drivel"? WTF?

[DURHAM D]

35. In the context of an ELECTION in Texas - YES

Have the discussion but not around this campaign.

[bettyellen]

37. not in any context, sorry. no one is saying do not vote for Wendy- we are saying it is regrettable

she needs to couch her support in such totally unrealistic terms because of her location.
PC drivel is RW bullshit.

[LittleBlue]

54. +1

Davis has to worry about election, Salon is a website that can't make any money and relies on cash injections from the owner.

One lives in the real world making a difference, the other has a degree ending in "theory" and has never left the university's walls.

[Gothmog]

56. I agree

I am supporting Wendy Davis and know the difficult time that she is going to have in Texas. I live in the real world and I agree that she has to take this type of position to have a chance of getting some of the single white women vote.

Women have been under attack in Texas for some time. As the father of two daughters, this sickens me and I will do what I can to change Texas. Senator Davis is the best persona available and I support her.

[PeaceNikki]

19. I agree with this article.

Gosh, it says a lot of what I've said around here.

[el_bryanto]

38. Well I don't find it entirely convincing

But do think it adds to the discussion.

Bryant

[Paladin]

44. If Greg Abbott wins the TX Governor's race, I'll remember this thread.

And a lot of other DU threads, just like it. Genuinely unfortunate---but par for the course.

[el_bryanto]

45. Well it'll be nice to be remembered.

What if Wendy Davis wins? Do I get to remember something in that case?

Bryant

[Paladin]

46. I'll let you know when it happens. (nt)

[Arkana]

47. A world without the need for abortions would be lovely.

Because it would also include adequate funding for pre-natal care, mandatory maternity leave laws, ACTUAL sex-ed classes in school that teach kids about safe sex rather than saying "Don't have it!", and the abolishment of all laws concerning gay and lesbian couples adopting kids.

But we'll never get any of that because Republicans won't allow it. So yes--women will always need access to safe, legal abortion.

[bettyellen]

50. a world with rape, spousal abuse, horrible birth defects and food on every table, instead of poverty

[Arkana]

51. Those too.

Unfortunately, this is reality, not a utopia.

[bettyellen]

52. I have come to realize, people forget all that and uniquely personlize the situation ....

which seems odd to me, as it is not how I look at things.
but if they have one brush with abortion, their feelings are colored by that- and all the things we listed are forgotten.
So, I am grateful you posted that, it is important to remind others- thanks!