If I think someone's sexual interests are objectifying, demeaning (particularly to women)...

[Silent3]

...even when people who have such interests would disagree with (or simply not care about) my assessment, when people with these interests only indulge in them with consenting adults...

7 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	It's not my business, not even if they view or make porn simulating/fantasizing about lack of consent.
	6 (86%)
	It's not my business, not even viewing or making porn as above, but I'm going to make my disgust clear.
	1 (14%)
	It's not my business, but no porn should be allowed to be made that might give others wrong ideas.
	0 (0%)
	I think people with such interests should realize their interests are bad/sick, and simply realizing so, stop having those interests.
	0 (0%)
	I think people with such interests should realize their interests are bad/sick, approaching them as a mental illness to be treated or a character flaw to fix.
	0 (0%)
	I think people should repress such interests, never act on them even in safe and consenting ways, regardless of whether they make those interests go away.
	0 (0%)
	I think acting on such interests should be criminalized, even among consenting adults (who on one side of it can't *really* be consenting, just taken advantage of).
	0 (0%)
	I think these despicable sickos should just kill themselves and help clean up the gene pool.
	0 (0%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[struggle4progress]

1. It's a case-by-case call. My standard view is "if ya gotta talk about it, ya ain't doin it right"

but I don't feel particularly obligated to share absolutely everything I think with absolutely everybody I encounter. But people, who let me know their views (on any topic), don't have much ground for complaint IMO if I return the favor by letting them know my views on the same topic, whether or not we happen to agree

There are probably circumstances in which I might feel morally obligated to arrange some intervention in specific practices between so-called "consenting adults" -- but I'm unlikely to actively seek real examples of such circumstances in my ordinary life

[KitSileya]

2. None of these apply to me.

I don't think it's possible to ban porn, but I want a comprehensive system of regulation for porn making to ensure the safety of those participating, and I support the British ban on rape, mutilation, necrophiliac, and bestial porn if it is advertised as real and the police cannot ascertain whether it is real or not, or if someone is hurt during the manufacturing of it.

And I do want a thorough discussion about what it is doing to our society, to those who watch, and those who participate, willing as well as unwilling. What does it say about as a society if many, even on progressive boards, don't care about whether what they watch is real rape or just simulated? What does it do to our young men and women to watch the porn being produced, and what effects does it have on their expectations in relationships? And I want a discussion about how even in gay porn you often have misogyny, (they don't often use LGBT epithets after all, they use misogynistic epithets in their 'dirty talk' instead.)

And I want to have that discussion without being called a prude, accused of wanting censorship, without being shouted down.

[RainDog]

3. It seems there's a lot of agreement

on this board no one that I've seen, tho, of course, I could surely have missed posts - anyway, I have not seen anyone here condoning actual rape porn.

if you have seen that, I would appreciate links so that I can know who is doing so.

I have seen people who support acting out of a rape scenario as porn with the consent of those participating - and, of course, without an actual rape. The rationale I have seen is this is the difference between reality and fantasy - i.e. thought crimes do not exist, and people can have a fantasy that they would never want in reality. The defense isn't for that person's personal choice; it seems the principle is about restricting artistic (and not particularly artistic) expression.

I have also seen broad consensus here for the need to regulate the porn industry to protect those who work in it.

I have seen broad support for treating criminal acts as criminal acts, as well.

Studies seem to show, in response to your question about effects, that different people respond differently. But I'm sure there are plenty of studies still out there - the source of those studies, and whether they have been validated within their scholarly communities should matter for the discussion, tho.

The use of misogynist epithets - language is interesting because of its fluidity, as well as its changes in meaning based upon context. People can use words in a context that renders them the opposite of their cultural context.

I can't really respond directly to the issue of the use of "dirty talk" within the realm of gay porn because I'm ignorant about the subject. Do you have a lot of experience with it, or know others who do, who note misogyny in gay porn?

In general, tho, in regard to porn - when you're talking about porn, you're talking about a transgressive subject in our culture.

I think it's sort of a futile quest to try to make something whose entire purpose is to transgress into something that is entirely acceptable to society.

My question is why do people who dislike porn spend so much time talking about it, analyzing it, etc. There are so many things to pay attention to in this world. Why choose porn as the source of your attention if you don't like it?

[KitSileya]

8. I don't perceive the same agreement, to be honest.

I don't see the same support, nor the broad consensus.

As for my experience with porn, it is admittedly not large, but what I have seen, has preferably been gay porn, as I cannot stand the dehumanization of most women in porn.At least in gay porn you have a better chance of seeing equal partners.

As for the time spent talking about it, this is a DU wave triggered by the British bill to ban the possession, not just sale of porn that contains rape, mutilating violence, bestiality or necrophilia, whether it is real or not if it's impossible to see the difference.

[RainDog]

12. Can you provide links to support your belief?

I can. I haven't read all the recent threads on this issue, but those I have read have universally indicated the consensus I mention. I can link to men who have been involved in this discussion, as well as women, who have indicated they do not support the things they are accused of by you here.

Again, if others are defending rape as entertainment, rather than fantasy scenarios, I would like to know who is making such defenses.

The onus is upon you to support your belief if you want to make such a claim.

It's a strong claim to make and you should not make it lightly.

I find it interesting that you assume women and men cannot be equal partners in sex. There are a lot of assumptions that go into that pov.

My question about the focus on rape wasn't about you, specifically, but rather about a small subset who continually link to discredited right wing sources to make claims then cry "I'm a victim!" when others dispute the validity of their sources.

If someone did this on other topics, many on DU would assume such a person was a right wing troll. But this one situation gets a pass, repeatedly, and those people who do this also engage in dishonest "discussion" and attempt to have long-time members here banned because those members disagree with this disreputable sort of tactic among those here who do it.

I don't find anything feminist about such actions. Instead these actions are the same as any right wing disruptor on a liberal site. Interesting to see that it gets a pass here, tho.

I think the administrators should automatically delete posts that include right wing religious anti-abortion, anti-homosexual, anti-feminism research as valid. This is what happens for other right wing sites and this is what happens when creationists come on this board and try to pretend they have something valid to say about science.

[renie408]

4. Exactly what you said.

I would like people who consider themselves progressives to THINK about their choices. And this is a choice. If the idea of rape from either side is so exciting to you that you cannot help but watch it or act it out....you might want to think about that. No, I do jot think every person excited by the idea of rape is destined to be a rapist. The rape fantasy could very well be 'innocent'. But it still couldn't hurt to evaluate where it comes from and how you indulge it.

[RainDog]

13. You make assumptions that are not stated here

People are talking about the difference between simulation and reality and distinguishing the two - not stating they have such a desire.

For you to try to insinuate that everyone here who does not accept the right wing view of this subject is participating in viewing rape porn is extremely disingenuous.

I get tired of these false arguments - which are "guilt by association." It's a McCarthyite sort of reasoning and it would behoove those who are making it to think about their actions in relation to adults in society.

It would help for some here to evaluate their position on indicting others for things they have never stated a preference for - this is so dishonest.

[renie408]

15. Out of curiosity

Which part of what I wrote insinuates what you are saying? Is it possible that you are looking for something and therefore found it? Because I know what I intended when I wrote that and it was pretty much what I said...and nothing like what you got out of it.

You know, if people would react to what is actually written instead of whatever they invent in their heads, this place would go anlot more smoothly.

[RainDog]

16. Your entire post is a misrepresentation

You make the assumption that those who are defending simulations of rape are doing so for their own uses, not because of the issue of 1st amendment rights.

If you read your post, it seems the implication is clear.

If that's not what you want to say, what do you think you're saying?

I responded to what was actually written, which was this:

I would like people who consider themselves progressives to THINK about their choices. And this is a choice. If the idea of rape from either side is so exciting to you that you cannot help but watch it or act it out

you are making assumptions that are not stated (maybe the removed post had this, but, if so, I didn't see it.)

you are not responding to the overwhelming response here in regard to this issue that is not from the pov of consumers of porn, but, rather, supporters of civil liberties.

[renie408]

6. Some.people are more comfortable with either/or thinking

You are obviously one of them. If someone does not hold the precise view on the subject of porn that you do, they are a prude. You have my sympathy. It must be tough getting through this complicated world with such simple and unsophisticated reasoning capabilities. That also explains your anger. I am sorry for your frustration.

[KitSileya]

7. Thanks for the defense.

Being in a completely different time zone that the majority of DUers often causes a lag between posting and answering comments.

Who was it that said that some men consider every woman who won't have sex with them a prude?

[nomorenomore08]

24. Yeah. I don't care for some of the stuff that's been posted - calling people "apologists" etc. -

but the (now hidden) post you were responding to is no better. That person needs to get a handle on their temper, or something.

[nomorenomore08]

23. +1

I'm with you. I have no interest in banning anything, but it's important that people think carefully about the images they're consuming.

[Silent3]

9. With the way the voting has gone so far...

...it seems perhaps that (1) DU has a lot of loud voices happy with things like Britain's anti-porn laws, but that these loud voices aren't very representative of DUers in general, and/or (2) the anti-porn, anti-some-kinds-of-sexual-interests people are angry, but don't have any policy prescriptions to deal with what angers them, and/or (3) they like to say what makes them angry, but don't want to get very specific about what they'd want do to change things even if they have specific actions in mind.

[RainDog]

19. Alcohol prohibition gave a lot of women a public voice

For the first times in their lives, getting involved in the prohibition of alcohol created nearly a century of women's activism in the U.S. that resulted in finally getting the right to vote in 1920... the same year that prohibition was enacted.

The "drys" in this nation were largely from rural areas and, in one of those strange political marriages, suffragettes found themselves allied with the KKK against the "wets" who were urban and, often, early generation immigrants.

The real problem with alcohol, of course, is that it was a health issue treated as a criminal issue for alcoholics, and, even more importantly, women were nearly entirely dependent upon a male for an income and prohibition in the U.S. as well as the UK's propaganda and sunday school prohibition talk was intended to make sure males showed up for jobs as workers.

Sometimes I see the anti-porn crusades in the same way. The most currently vocal critics are among the religious right, so their involvement in the issue allows them to take on the mantle of moral crusader. The reality, of course, may also include that some women are threatened by others' access to porn and this discomfort can be worked out via cultural arguments.

Prohibition created a whole new "class" of females - the flapper - and led to more women drinking than ever before, which is a little irony of life. Women started smoking then too - tho this was an outright propaganda campaign as advertisement, aligned with new attitudes that women could express openly... or some women could.

anyway, FDR aligned with the "wets" to win the Democratic nomination and the decision to go to war put more women in the workplace than every before - within traditional male-dominated fields. So, again, ironically, fighting a war against fascism gave women more options than they had known before.

When the war was over, rather than accommodate women in the workplace, the propaganda of the time insisted women didn't really want to work and they really wanted to make babies and nothing else in suburbia... which led to Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique. ...which led to others outside the dominant white suburban culture asking what feminism had to say to their lives, and, on we go...

I don't understand what people want here, either, who argue about porn.

[Silent3]

20. Great historical perspective. n/t

[pintobean]

10. I miss the 'no sex threads' rule

[MADem]

26. +++++++1!

Every other thread is about PORN....I've dumped a bunch of them this week.

And this stuff always comes in waves....feh!

[Fla_Democrat]

11. I just want to go back to the good old days

when it was the republicans that got all worked up over porn and wanting to legislate what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home or studio.

[HereSince1628]

14. Personally, I tuck my penis to reduce the danger of it being bitten.

I find that any XY's comments on this often are followed by an attack on genitalia.

Consequently, because once bitten = twice warned, I'll leave the campaigning to others.

[wickerwoman]

17. I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a mental illness or even a character flaw,

but I think being turned on by rape porn is a sign of something going wrong in your social conditioning and that it's something that, as an individual, you should strive to mature beyond. I don't think it should necessarily be banned, but I don't think its enough to say everyone else should just shrug their shoulders and say "oh well" because it's who you are and can't be changed.

I was absolutely immersed in violent movies when I was a teenager. Aliens and Terminator 2 were my favorite films of all time. I used to get together with friends and watch zombie and cannibal schlock films and cheer at every gory detail. And then I realised in my early 20s that actually watching all that shit wasn't helping me to become the person that I wanted to be. So I stopped and never missed it.

I don't think it's unfair to say if you get turned on by watching a woman being gang-raped that probably you should reexamine your life priorities and what kind of person you actually want to be. Because I think that kind of fetish is usually much more derived from social conditioning than it is from something like sexual orientation.

[RainDog]

18. So, did viewing Aliens and Terminator...

turn you into someone who went around shooting other people? Or, more to the point, has research demonstrated that watching the Alien and Terminator series causes the majority of viewers to go out and shoot people?

Maybe Disney movies should be banned because young girls see them and are given unrealistic physical depictions of females that are, generally, drawn by males whose stories, because so many of them are based upon old folk tales, etc., should be censored because they reinforce gender stereotypes.

We all have life lessons we can pass along to others, but those lessons may not apply to others according to their understanding of their life and culture. Some religious people would find an attempt to censor Disney an affront to their beliefs (while others, more fringe, find satanic instructions from the Hollywood gay mafia in Disney cartoons.)

Should we have to give consideration to an opinion that we find has no value or bearing for our own lives?

Personally, I don't think I have anything to say, as far as a judgment, about others' fetishes, etc. It's outside of the realm of my experience - or else my fetishes are so much a part of the culture that they are normalized...whatever they may be.

It's just as reasonable to say that those who feel a need to judge others' preferences have a problem stemming from social conditioning, and that conditioning is entirely conservative, though it may be framed as something else to make someone feel better about their attitudes so that they align with their stated political beliefs.

A lot of people who defend the rights of others don't necessarily agree with the speech or representations they defend, but they know the protection of freedom of speech is a value that deserves a strong defense.

[wickerwoman]

21. It absolutely made me give less of a crap about other people

and about violence directed towards them. I broke one guy's thumb, kicked another guy so hard he almost fell down some stairs, tripped other kids in soccer all the time accidentally/on purpose. All as a "joke". Fake apologized for all of it but didn't, in my heart of hearts, really care about the pain I was causing other people. And then I grew the fuck up.

Eating one potato chip doesn't make the majority of people drop dead of a heart attack. Eating shitloads of them is likely to make you more obese which increases your risk of a heart attack. Likewise, I think watching endless zombie cannibal porn makes most people less empathetic generally... less likely to say "excuse me" when they bump into someone of the elevator or to stop and check if someone is OK when they fall down. That's just how human socialisation works. We mirror what we see our peers doing all the time. And being less empathetic makes it easier to hurt other people.

I still see this with my old friends who still watch craploads of extreme horror movies and spend all their time playing graphic first person shooter games. They have much less empathy for others and their poor relationships (or lack of any relationships) clearly demonstrate this.

I explicitly said that I'm not talking about banning anything.

What I did say was that I think we can define levels of maturity and that getting turned on by violence or rape would be on the lower scales of a ladder of maturity and that it's possible, in my experience, to climb up that ladder unlike, for example, being gay which is not a question of lack of maturity but something you're born with that stays with you your entire life.

Nobody is questioning your right to do whatever the hell you like but neither am I conceding your "right" to do it free of all societal judgment.

Sorry but getting turned on by watching a person being violently assaulted is an absolutely repugnant thing to do and it doesn't make me "conservative" or a "prude" or "uptight" to say so.

[RainDog]

22. You grew the fuck up

I'm glad you did.

Thanks for your permission to view or not view porn. As I've noted before, I don't watch porn, have never watched much porn, tho I did want to see what it was about when I was younger, and, as far as it all goes.. your "right" to pass societal judgment on people is of little or no concern to anyone other than yourself and your friends and, maybe, those who would read a random post here on DU.

I find the bible is one of the most violent and misogynistic texts in publication. I think it lies about women, depicts them in ways that poison society, etc.

...and I will pass judgment, too, on those who think it's a text worth validating. I don't care what anyone's opinion is about my view of that.

I am consistently astonished that so many women participate in their own subjugation by supporting religious institutions that exist to commodify women as second-class citizens. It's grotesque.

Where are the protestors in front of the southern baptist churches who demand those misogynists stop treating young girls as second-class citizens because of their idiotic religious beliefs?

when feminists care about that sort of bullshit as much as they do someone in a porn video, I'll take that "feminist" seriously.

[AverageJoe90]

25. Lack of consent would be my problem. Anything else goes, pretty much. nt